# Degen incentives for Regen outcomes

- Speakers: [Griff Green](https://streameth.org/speakers/griff-green), [Nico Gallardo](https://streameth.org/speakers/nico-gallardo), [James Kiernan](https://streameth.org/speakers/james-kiernan), [Lauren Luz](https://streameth.org/speakers/lauren-luz)
- Channel: [Devcon 7 SEA](https://streameth.org/devcon_7_sea)
- Date: 2024-11-20
- Duration: 55:20
- Watch: https://streameth.org/watch/673d90c417a97b4f4d488d86
- Download: https://vod-cdn.lp-playback.studio/raw/jxf4iblf6wlsyor6526t4tcmtmqa/catalyst-vod-com/hls/df724e7flhk2bm49/1080p0.mp4

## Description

Degens (financial speculators) and Regens (blockchain altruists) don't like each other. But there's a lot that can be achieved if both tribes work together. In this panel we'll explore those projects that embrace both energies to find balance in the force and unlock Ethereum’s potential.

## About the speakers

### Griff Green

Trying to build something better than governments.

Co-founder of Giveth, q/acc, Unicorn.eth, Pairwise, General Magic & DAppNode

Top Steward in Arbitrum, ENS & Optimism, TEC as well as many other Ethereum community projects. 

Been DAOing my heart out since 2015.

### Nico Gallardo

Uniting degens and regens through OttoDAO / LottoPGF. Compulsive builder. Initiator of AFK communities Ethereum Bolivia and W3b Lab.

### James Kiernan

Head of community at Octant

### Lauren Luz

GIVeconomy Product Lead at Giveth. Passionate about using evolving public goods funding mechanisms using web3.


## Transcript

I'm super excited to share this panel with you all. Maybe we can quickly start with a round of intros. I'm Nico Gallardo, one of the contributors of OtoDAO. We're building LotoPGF, Protocol to Incentivize Funding of Public Goods with Lotteries. Yeah, and some other exciting capital formation mechanisms for public good. Nice. I'm Griff Green, founder of GiveIT, DappNode, and also working on some really cool projects like Pairwise, which just launched Liquid Democracy in the optimism space. The Quadratic Accelerator, which is launching bonding curves for projects in Polygon, and also soon will be the infrastructure for GURVs, GiveIT, and also Unicorn.EATH, which is a membership infrastructure that makes onboarding to Web3 simple and safe. And I'll throw it over to James. Yeah, thanks. I'm James Kiernan. I'm the head of community at Octant. Octant is a public goods funding platform that is using the staking rewards from a really large ETH treasury from Golem. Does any OGs in the crowd remember Golem from way back when? So we staked a little over 100,000 ETH, and we are using those staking rewards to run grant rounds every 90 days, funding public goods and our users. Yeah, I think that's good. Hi, I'm Lauren Lewson. I am a product manager at GiveIT. Griff already mentioned GiveIT, but GiveIT is a crypto donation platform. We're doing all kinds of fun experimentations in kind of making donating better and also making public goods funding better. So like we have a raffle where if you donate to public goods projects, you can have an opportunity to win a raffle. And our long-term mission is ultimately to make it possible for public goods projects to have regenerative funding, to have sustainable revenue streams through tokenization and just all the crazy stuff we're building in Web3. Awesome. To set the stage a little bit, we recently co-wrote a manifesto. They call it the DGN's Regions Manifesto. It's like three paragraphs, but I don't really want to read it all. Like we have some highlights just to give you a little bit of an idea of what we want to talk about here. So the main points of the DGN's Regions Manifesto is we believe in DGN's ability to discover new projects and spread the word. We believe in regions' ability to align players towards projects that solve systemic problems. We believe DGNs and regions together can multiply the power of coordination mechanisms and public goods. So to give a little bit of context, I think we've got, you know, through the past years, I guess there was a lot of talk about the DGN to region pipeline. And I think it's been like very productive. Like we've seen a lot of amazing projects being built thanks to that. Give us octant, get coin, like we can name a few. But I think it's now maybe time to explore a little bit more our DGN side and like try to incorporate those DGN mechanisms that we know are very successful for, you know, getting retail involved, getting a lot of activity and eventually also a lot of funding for public goods. So I know you all recently did some experiments in that direction with the public good sweepstakes with a new Givebacks V2 raffle. So maybe why don't we start with you guys recapping a little bit how that all went. Lauren, you wanna start? Oh sure, I can talk about the Givebacks V2 raffle. So if you guys aren't familiar with GiveUs, I think many people are, but if you're not familiar with GiveUs, since we launched our Give Token and our Give Economy, we started this program of effectively rewarding donors who give to public goods projects. We wanted to sort of like incentivize donations or actually just give something back to donors to start mentally changing this paradigm that donating or supporting public goods needs to come with an element of sacrifice. So this was the Givebacks program. It was, we had a team of people who were checking into projects and verifying that they were public goods and that they were providing a free non-excludable service. And then, so that project would become Givebacks eligible, and then donors who gave to those projects would get Give Tokens in proportion to their donations. So we ran this program like this for, since 2020 until now, where it's kind of like evolving into the V2 version because what we found is that, like Givebacks was effective for kind of like retaining the current audience. It was really, it was nice for project owners to tell their communities to donate to them. They'd get a little bit of something back. It was sort of like a small donation subsidy, but we wanted to make it so that we could attract a broader community of donors and more donors who are like coming to the platform for this opportunity. So like, I mean, we've been seeing a lot of great experimentation in this space, like with a lot of PGF and with the Regen token of like experimenting with this, like let's attract the DGENs. How do we attract the DGENs to ultimately be fueling funding into public goods? So we evolved the Givebacks program to, and we did a little experiment with it that we ran it over three months where five of the donations would win like up to, we had a 500,000 Give token prize pool and it was split among like five. So five donations could win like up to the max, the max prize was like 250,000 Give tokens. So one donation would win that like big prize pool. And so you could donate just a little bit and actually get a lot more back for your donation. And it's sort of this like kind of like opportunity thing. And we actually saw that, I mean, it's interesting, like it's hard to know exactly, like there's a lot of factors that cause people to donate at different times, but during the period of time that we were running the raffle, we actually saw like the biggest donation rounds that we had seen before. We saw some massive donations coming in. We saw a lot of people just increasing their donation amount because previously the Givebacks program, you could donate any amount and get some amount back. But then we were like, okay, to enter the raffle, you needed to donate at least $5 to a project. So like the amount of donations, people just started like bumping up the amount that they were doing. So like I could donate $1, I could donate $5. So we saw like just larger amounts going in, higher donations and ultimately more funding going to public goods projects. And I think that, I mean, I think that this is really interesting. It's kind of like this like fun mechanism. It's this like kind of raffle sort of thing that like kind of rallies people because it's like, oh, I could actually win with that. And how are you winning? Well, basically by donating and supporting public goods, which is kind of in and of itself sort of an altruistic action. So it's this merging of the DGEN, I could win, I could win big and the like I'm supporting public goods and I care about the impact I'm making on the world. Nice. Yeah, we did something similar and thanks to big help to Nico and the team. They had actually built a large part of this for Octant. So we recently ran a sweepstakes, essentially like a raffle as well, where if you donated to public goods, you were entered in to win potentially a massive prize. The grand prize winner was 200,000 GLM, so pretty substantial winnings. And we saw the same thing as what you said. We definitely saw like an increase in activity. We definitely saw people who were donating more of their rewards within Octant, which was definitely something that I think we can build upon. I think the one thing that we maybe failed in was getting the word out to like those broader communities within like the DGEN space. It created a lot of activity within our community. So it's definitely something that I think, people are very interested in participating in. But in terms of tapping into this much larger community within the Web3 ecosystem, that is more profit motivated. That's definitely something that I think we need to do a much better job in future rounds. But overall, yeah, we're really happy with it. I think lotteries, sweepstakes, raffles are a really, really powerful tool to start to bring the profit motivated folks that are looking for opportunities from that regard and channeling that energy towards positive outcomes for the ecosystem. Yeah, I think it's quite hard to get DGENs to participate in this, but I think this is a great start. I mean, there's definitely a lot of incentives that come there to get that going. So, you know, it's about, now it's what you say, it's about distribution, right? Like how do we get into the more DGEN channels? And yeah, I think like what you guys have done and like what we're also doing a lot of PGS also comes like throughout history, like things like the Great Wall of China or like ancient city of Rome reparations. They were funded with lotteries, even like Harvard and Yale, like a lot of the early U.S. infrastructure were funded with lotteries. So, you know, we're not really reinventing the wheel or doing anything new here. You know, like we're just embracing, I guess, human nature to, you know, like this a little bit of greed into channeling to something good, right? Like that has a positive impact, yeah. Yeah, I was gonna say, I mean, if people are already putting in tens, if not hundreds of thousands of dollars into, you know, fraud coins, channeling that into something good, I think is like, you know, a really positive outcome that we should be focusing on. Yeah, absolutely. And I think another experiment that I would love to touch on was, and as you mentioned briefly, is the region token on Farcaster. I think this was also very interesting experiment in like aligning incentives, like aligning DGEN incentives towards something a little bit more region. To give you a little bit of context, last year, probably like around a year ago, this DGEN token popped up on Farcaster that was rewarding people who was active in the DGEN channel there. And it was an airdrop and, you know, like a lot of the early people on Farcaster were very happy with it. And it just, you know, early this year, like it pumped and it went viral and a lot. And this team came up with this region token that was kind of like a similar concept, but to get region activity going on Farcaster. Yeah, just trying to meme region into existence the same way like DGEN happened on Farcaster. And what they did was incentivizing activity in these more region protocols, like Gitcoin, Gibbett, and a few others. And I think it was quite successful. Like I remember when we were talking, like Gibbett donations were like off the roof, thanks to, you know, like that incentive. So do you want to talk about it? Yeah, we do all these QF rounds, right? The quadratic funding rounds. And most of the time we get around, the matching pool is like 80% of the donations. Sorry, we get donations that equate to around 80% of the matching pool. But when we had the incentives from the region tokens, it was like, I don't know, 120% or something like that. So you could say it effectively increased donations about 50%. And a lot of people who are donating were new and they were just donating for the airdrop. And I think in general, this opportunity of chasing unknown gains is very addicting, very interesting to people. And making things fun is the best way to fund public goods. You know, make it entertaining. A lot more people participate in the state lotteries, right, like in the U.S., the U.S. has a monopoly over most of the lottery systems. And those mostly go to funding public schools. And a lot more people participate in the lottery than donate to non-profits. But yet, it funds public schools, right? So it's just simple, you gotta, we need to be aware of like human nature and what people like to do and lean towards it. Yeah, I think it's really interesting to see so many people get addicted to their phones and social media because it's like dopamine hit. They say actually not even to look at your phone first thing in the morning because it's too much dopamine right away and it'll like mess with your overall neurology and lead to longer term kind of brain problems. Anyway, so people are always chasing dopamine. And I think that like the giving selflessly isn't as much of a dopamine hit as just like this like opportunity to win. Even if you don't necessarily get anything. I feel like the opportunity to win something is something people are constantly chasing. Or just even this like fun gamification thing with the Regen token and the impact on donations that were happening, quadratic funding rounds on Giveth. The Regen token wasn't launched yet, it was points. It was like points and leaderboards. And everybody wanted to rise to the top of the leaderboard and post it on Twitter and be like, look at what of a Regen I am. I have so many Regen points. Which is just so cool, like I mean it's so cool because it creates this like cultural thing. It's like kind of like flaunting, peacocking, egoing. And it's just kind of like, it's something that people really inherently want that I think is more motivating and more driving than just kind of like giving selflessly, you know? And it turns things into a win-win, right? And I think that's the key. Like these are incentives for Regen outcomes. It's like Regen outcomes, we just want value to be created for society, right? But unfortunately most of the time when people are creating value for society at large, it's a win-lose game, right? There's no upside for the people creating value. Whether it's a nonprofit, you know, you don't have shares in a nonprofit, right? You're just working tirelessly for society. Or you know, yeah, all the public goods work, it's just too often caught up in donations and sacrifice. But if you can just put in some kind of potential to make a profit, you know, that you can justify it to yourself, that you're not just sacrificing. You know, you're actually participating in something that could even be better for you than if you don't, you know, that's the key. And I actually think there's just a lot of opportunity in crypto itself to make that not have to be a gamble, make that be, you know, if we can turn, my dream is to turn nonprofits into the same funding model as tech startups. If you invest in a hundred of them, two of them could become unicorns and it'll pay off. You know, and I think that's the, that's when we get to the real DGN incentives for regional outcomes is when we can templatize a way for a community that is providing value to, you know, capture that value in their own economy. Do you guys wanna touch a little bit on QAC and like the augmented bonding codes? Because I think this goes like right down that alley, right? Like how can we, yeah, pretty much make public goods kind of like a profitable business or like something like that, right? And people can sort of speculate on that as well a little bit. Yeah, sure, I can dive into that. So it's, you know, the dream of what I've been working on since like 2016, basically, is like how do we allow nonprofits to actually tokenize the value that they create and token, you know, basically create shares for nonprofits, you know, of a sort or something that rhymes with it. And, you know, these kinds of organizations are not gonna be able to get $100 million market cap into an airdrop. That's not gonna happen. If a nonprofit wants to launch a token, they're gonna be small cap, you know? And the solution for this is bonding curves. Bonding curves really solve the problem of liquidity for a small market cap token. And so we've been iterating and iterating on this methodology of how do we launch these things? And we finally found a really nice method that basically is like quadratic funding with bonding curves. But instead of donating, well, so first we get grants from an ecosystem. For Giveth, for example, we're gonna give, we're gonna launch curves for nonprofits. And we're gonna give, we're gonna have a competition, an application process where people apply to launch their own bonding curve for their public good. And then we're gonna give them, let's say, you know, some amount of money to bootstrap the liquidity for their token. Then there's these follow-up funding rounds on a regular basis that are like quadratic funding, which I assume most people here are familiar with. And in that quadratic funding round, though, instead of donating to the project, you're actually sending money to support this project and getting tokens in return. So now you have the degen incentives or region outcomes. Now, the trick here, though, that's really crazy is that all of these tokens are locked at first because it's really important for bonding curves to have a lockup period because they're under-collateralized. Anyway, I don't wanna get too technical with it. The main point is that the matching pool, instead of being distributed to the projects, it actually, it turns into the first liquidity on the market to start supporting these projects with a liquid token. And what's really cool here is that because all the other tokens are locked and there's no other tokens in the supply, after this first QAC round, that's what we call the quadratic funding-esque round in this process, that price cannot go down because there's no tokens that can be sold. There's just a liquidity pool that enters the market for a public good project, and the price can't go down. What will the price do? I don't know, you know? But it won't go down because there's no tokens to be sold. And this is the kind of fun games that we can do to actually bootstrap these things. And just to put a little more context, public goods, nonprofits create value. My favorite example is like a river. If you have a dirty river that is polluted, all the landowners along the side of that river have lower land value than if it was clean. There's a clear incentive for those landowners to coordinate around cleaning this river. If an entrepreneur could come in and say, hey, landowners, I can clean this river. I have this cool way of doing it. Let's get some money together. Let's make it happen. They have all the incentive in the world to make that happen. They just need some upside, right? And if this guy, this entrepreneur cleans this river successfully, he can go with his token economy to the next river over and also clean that river and that river. And he can give those first landowners huge upside in his project. We just need to templatize this. There is value in providing public goods to society. It doesn't have to happen from government. It can happen from entrepreneurs. We just need to make it possible. We need to find the methodologies. And I think the best opportunity is these kind of micro economies. Yeah, and I think we're kind of used to these things being provided by the government and then because of the size and the inefficiencies of the government, then these things become even like, they don't make any profit. They actually make losses. But I think if we distribute this power to people, like that, hey, we as the beneficiaries of all these public goods can also have skin in the game, let's say, and have potential upside on them, then I think we all pretty much align incentives for making all these public goods profitable, but profitable in the sense that they just create a lot of value for the people involved. And this value is, well, actually profitable like in comparison to what governments make losses. I think we can get this, yeah, just this upside for people can become a lot more interesting and get these incentives more in the direction of well, worldwide public goods, right? Like we can get digital public, I think we're starting here with digital public goods, but eventually we can use these technologies to do more localized stuff and then get people to become profitable or make revenue in these localized economies as well with the same tools that we use today, like just making governmental processes more efficient, let's say. Yeah, super excited about that. Yeah, that's really exciting, man. I'm really excited to see how that all unfolds. And you're talking about aligning incentives and you can't be more spot on with that. It's something that we're trying to do with Octon as well. With Octon, the first stage of this, we've only been around for a little over a year, and this is essentially like a proof of concept where if you have a sustainable source of yield and a token, will your community be interested in participating in funding projects that are important to them? And I think we've proved that this is a yes. Now the question is, how can we start to scale this far beyond what we're currently doing? And so we've also been thinking long and hard about bringing what we're doing with Octon to other major ecosystem players across the ecosystem, which is really exciting. So there's a lot of big Dow Treasuries out there. There's a lot of DeFi protocols, MUV capture, places that are generating a lot of yield that have an opportunity to do what Octon's doing, essentially giving their community the ability to lock a token into a contract, earn yield, and then decide where they want that yield to go. But then also seeing how can we bring the entire ecosystem together to fund a sustainability pool so that broad-based Ethereum public goods that each of these entities feel are important are sustainably funded for the future? And I think that's how you really start to bring everybody together and give Ethereum that leg up and an advantage to where Protocol Guild and some of these other projects that are providing massive value to the ecosystem but are still having problems funding themselves, I think that's how you really solve that problem. One other thing I think to add to that as well is a lot of grant rounds that I see right now, and Octon is no different, is that the rounds are primarily like a vibe-based round. People are showing their projects, and if you like what the project is doing or if you have a relationship with them, and you're going and donating to them on Gitcoin, on Octon, on Gibbous, what we would like to see is how can you start to spin a flywheel for incentivizing folks to fund impact? And so you can think of it in a way where if you are prospectively funding something and maybe you get a hyper cert or you get an NFT for that donation, and then there's some retroactive model in the backing of that where that project is getting funded retroactively, you can actually start to spin that flywheel where the prospective funders are actually getting a little bit of a dividend or a kickback from that initial funding. So if you're incentivizing that flywheel so that you're actually trying to fund what you think is going to be impactful rather than just a vibe-based approach, I think that's really how we can start to drive more incentives towards funding what ultimately is creating value. Yeah, and I think we've touched on so many potential mechanisms that are a little bit degen and bring up really impactful outcomes or region outcomes. I wanted to explore a little bit more what other projects or mechanisms come to mind. I have a bit of a cheat sheet here to have a list because there's actually a lot. And I think it really depends how we define degen a little bit. For example, I don't know, I would think Octant itself without the sweepstakes also fits there, right? Because as you said, you're generating yield and this yield gets distributed to the GLM token holders but at the same time, there's the opportunity and there's the funding of public goods through Octant, right? And speculating on the GLM token which is like considering how much treasury there is there and these things. It's a pretty interesting speculation. Especially when the market is pumping. So it's like you can buy an altcoin and also fund public goods. It's pretty cool. And there's one that is kind of like, I don't want to say pegged, but very close to Ethereum, right? Because the entire narrative of Octant is that they have the treasury on ETH and then staked and that generates yield but also the price appreciation of ETH just creates this speculative value. I think we're pretty confident in ETH, yeah. Yeah, and the other thing that's really cool about Octant is that you have the opportunity to fund public goods or also just keep the yield of your proportion, like you've proportionally staked some GLM and then you can just keep whatever rewards that you're allocated there. I mean, it has a greater impact if you fund public goods but it also has this mechanism of just attracting degents who just want to earn a yield and pocket it but it has also this whole system where you're like, oh, well maybe instead of pocketing, I could give a little bit here. So I think it's also just this pipeline for drawing indigents and then holding their hand towards public goods. That's exactly what the sweepstakes was for, it's just to try to drive that a little more but yeah, you all are spot on. And another project that I really like that I would love to explore if you guys think it's degent enough because it's definitely a region, it's like USDGlow. You know, USDGlow is a stable coin that instead of generating yield for itself, it donates this yield to non-profits basically. So, you know, like, I think that on itself it's maybe like not that much degent beyond like being a stable coin but I think it has the potential to be used as a degen, right? Like if people start trading with USDGlow instead of like USDT or USDC, then they would be trading and like using this, you know, speculative mindset and doing something good at the same time, no? What do you think? Yeah, I was gonna say, I think what they've done so far is great and their market cap has been growing, they've been driving some great partnerships but I think the thing and what we're talking about here is they're missing that incentive. You know, Circle and Tether, they're dominating right now and it's not even close. So I think you'd really start to drive an interesting narrative if there was some incentive to hold USDGlow beyond just funding public goods. We at Octant have found that just funding public goods just by itself is not that strong of a narrative to tap into. to the much larger ecosystem that we're ultimately trying to make inroads with. This is why you've seen, you know, things like public goods network that L2 to fund public goods that, you know, was correctly attempted, but that incentive just isn't there. Public goods alone is just not the thing. So I love what U.S. Eagle is doing, but I think if they figure out, like, what that incentive is to bring the broader ecosystem into holding their stable coin, then they'll probably hit on something really big. And I think that incentives can also be things beyond just, like, even necessarily monetary incentives. Like, when we were talking before about the region token and the points and everybody donating because they wanted to get on the leaderboard, it's an abstracted concept, but I think that what the real incentive there was was this sense of community. So it's like, like, I mean, we could also just think creatively around our public goods projects and token economies that we're creating. It's like, how do we drive people because they feel a sense of belonging? They feel part of something bigger. And I mean, I think it's also, you know, a lot of people come to DevCon and they're attracted here because of community and they feel, like, the Ethereum community is so warm and welcoming and you kind of come into it and you become part of it and then you just become a believer in ETH and you become a believer in all these public goods projects. So it's also interesting to think about, like, other creative incentives that are just beyond APRs. Yeah, like marketing. Honestly, like, I saw Garm today, or not today, but at the conference. I don't know if he's in here, but it'd be really interesting to see if they could more publicize those leaderboards. Because we've seen, actually, a lot of success with trying to fund our matching pools as, like, almost like a KOL. You know, KOL marketing is, like, really, really popular in crypto and for good reason. It works. You know, like, it's just what it is. And we're always like, please fund our matching pool. Please. We'll tell people about you, you know, but, like, fund public goods. You know, and that was kind of, I mean, I'm exaggerating a little bit, but that was our primary way of directing the crowd. But then we kind of turned it around and we're like, dude, give us this one hell of a KOL, okay? Let me tell you. Our follower count is, like, the ratio is insane. You should see our follower list, you know? And then we say, and honestly, like, there's no more authentic way to, like, get some good KOL marketing than doing something good. Give us $2,000 for our matching pool and we'll do the same shit that a KOL does. You know? We'll, like, you know, tell about how great your project is and, like, you know, how cool you are for donating to public goods. But framing it like this, that, listen, give us some of your marketing budget and we will donate it to public goods. You know? And that's way more impactful. It still has the same output, but you're giving something non-monetary, right? And I think Glow Dollar could do the same. And they kind of do, right? They're like, hey, Dow Treasuries, just hold some glow and we'll tell the world that you're great, you know? But if they leaned into the KOL side a little harder, it might be more impactful. Yeah, and we can definitely attest to the great KOL that give us is because, like, one of the first experiments that we did with LottoPGF, we co-sponsored a quadratic funding round, and that was, like, pretty much the kickstart of our presence on, yeah, on the space. So, yeah, thanks for that. Like, I would recommend everyone to try it. And I was actually thinking while you were talking, this can be even automated in some way through, like, a harbor tax or something like that, right? Like, where you, you know, if you bid enough, then you can become part of this billboard or something like that, and then the money goes to fund public goods. And then maybe you guys can do, like, the marketing heavy lift, but then there's, like, a big aspect of it that's automated. I don't know. I think this is the dangerous stuff, right? Okay. Because when you start getting really complicated things and, like, you present it to someone and you're like, listen, we have this cool harbor tax thing, let me tell you about it. Like, even when I was talking about QAX before, I lost half the crowd. You know, like, it's just not, it's not really, it doesn't really work. Keeping it simple is the way, and if you want to do cool harbor tax stuff in the background, you can keep it in the background. Yeah. You know? Yeah. I think we just need to abstract everything. I'm kind of a nerd, and so I get really excited about the heck that we're building and all the details and, like, why we've thought of something for everything, and I want to explain all the details, but it really doesn't work well. Like, you know, we built this product on GiveUs called GivePower where you stake your gift tokens, you earn a yield, and then you can get GivePower. It's a non-transferable year C20 that you can use to boost projects, and it affects where the projects are seen on the page, in a very simple way of putting it. So it's like, in a quadratic funding round, super competitive, projects want to rise to the top, you can boost them with GivePower, but, like, when we were building it, we're like, okay, but, like, you know, to get GivePower, you can lock your gift tokens for longer and you get a multiplier, and so people's GivePower amounts are going to be variable, so we should represent this as a percentage of a total, and so, you know, I made a bad choice where it's like, you boost the first project, it's like 100% is used, and then when you want to boost the next project, you have to select a percentage from, like, a slider bar, and it says the amount of GivePower, but I feel like this is just so deeply confusing, and what I should have done and what we're actually working on building now is, like, boost, double boost, triple boost, like, do you want a 1x boost or 2x boost, and then I'll just do the math in the back end and not tell you about it. And I feel like this is another way that we need to, like, we're trying to plan for mass Web3 adoption, and if we want to attract more people, we need to move outside of, like, our super tech brain spaces and also our kind of, like, super altruistic spaces and make it accessible to degents, make it accessible to people who just, like, want to play and have fun and use apps and swipe and click and boost and whatever, because that will really start to fuel people, and if we can design clever systems where, in the end, it's making impact, then we're winning. Yeah, what you're describing is, like, essentially Uniswap or something like that, right? Like, you go, you want to swap a token, but behind the scenes, there's all sorts of craziness going on, and you would never know it unless you actually dig into the code. So just generally speaking, I think that's what Web3 can really learn to do is just learning to meet, especially the much larger group of beginners that are going to be coming in over the next, you know, two to three years, like, meeting them where they are rather than just, like, blowing all this verbiage out at them that they have no idea what the hell we're talking about. Yeah, Dijon says, like, simple stuff, right? Like, we just click, click, click, click, click. Simple bits, simple bits! Like, bump it. Hit the dopamine hits, you know, get it hard. What is this I'm thinking? No, I want dopamine! Yeah, and I wanted to touch a little bit on a topic that we talked about before about, like, community, right? Like, how can we make, like, region kind of like a cultural thing than, like, something that's a community? And I mean, we already are, but I think we can, and probably that's what the region token wants to achieve, right? Like, being this unifying sort of asset that becomes the membership to this community and, like, how can we make ourselves more bullish on that? Because this is what meme coins do good, right? Like, they create memes, they create culture, they create, you know, they align their members and they, you know, there's this talk about, like, the better meme coins are the ones that create sort of cult. So, you know, how can we achieve this with region? And I think there's so many cool projects in the region space that, and I'm super excited to see, like, how we're all exploring, like, the more region side, because I think that the region side, maybe what it brings is also, like, this cultural aspect of, like, you know, shadowy or, like, a little bit more edgy, which is, like, fun for all humans, I guess, right? So, I think region has a bit of an uphill battle, because there is, like, in the meme coin culture, even no matter how hard Vitalik says, like, meme coins for charity, meme coins for charity, meme coins for good, like, everyone's like, no. You know, and it sucks. Like, I don't know, I think the main thing here is, like, you can do it. Like, I think MAGA, the token, like, Donald Trump token, was donating fat stacks to all sorts of cool projects. But that wasn't the thing in the front, you know? It was Donald Trump's cartoon face, right? That was the thing in the front. So, you know, having the region side so overt, it makes it more of an uphill battle, you  So, I don't know. Maybe we'll get to a point where region, like, tokens have their moment. It's like, oh, dude, no, this is the future. But until people see that as some kind of value add, right now, you know, it's going to be an uphill battle, because right now people actually see it as a value subtract. Yeah, I think that's just, like, a problem with the way that we, I mean, this is, like, non-profit, non-profit, it's in the name. Horrible word. Non-profit. It's, like, it's just attracting people who, like, want to do good, and it's this kind of, like, negative word, like, this, like, anti-comfort, anti-lambo. That's, like, it's, like, we named it anti-lambo. Yeah, so I think that, like, just, like, in the naming of things, it's kind of problematic, and so until we actually are able to, like, mentally shift people over to be realizing that, you know, public goods projects and region projects also have the same possible upside, it sort of has to be, like, obscured and disguised under just, like, super fun pump, pump, pump. This is one of the things that, for a couple years, I was trying to make all my talks directed at this, like, fighting this idea, because, like, you know, the world spends $35 trillion a year on public goods. $35 trillion, that number is not even feasible in your mind. This is how much governments spend on providing value to society. And, by the way, they only collect $25 trillion in taxes, so, you know, they're printing money hand over fist to fund public goods, although not everyone sees them as public goods, but there is a lot of money in our world directed towards solving these societal issues, and if we can tap into creating profitable economic systems for entrepreneurs to solve those same problems, dude, it's going to be sick, okay? It's a huge industry, and we just don't see it that way, because governments dominate it, and nonprofits are, like, a distant second, and then there's nothing else, just, like, community groups, you know? So it's, we don't see the opportunity, because it's, but it's right in front of our face. In an experimental way. Yeah. It's just one template that works, and all of a sudden, a whole new industry is created. Yeah, it's just why experimentation in this space is so important, right? It's, yeah, one experimental way. Yeah, related to what you said earlier, like, something, meme coins, right? Like, something we want to experiment with a lot of PGF, potentially, is just giving, like, meme coins a lottery, and then, almost in the background, like, these lotteries are actually funding public goods, so people have, like, a bit of a degen activity to do, and then at the same time, they're funding public goods, similar to, like, how this MAGA token was doing, you know? Maybe that's the way, you know? Like, maybe, like, the region outcomes don't have to be, like, completely out there, but if they're, like, omnipresent, and they start to become the norm, maybe that's even a better outcome, right? For the entire thing. We have five more minutes of a panel, then we will go to Q&A, so... Yeah, get your questions ready. Get your questions ready, and I want to just, like, briefly go through this list to mention some of the projects that I came up with that are a little bit degen and region, so if you have some more ideas, please drop them in the Q&A, then we can also maybe touch on them, but I think some that we should not forget about is, like, Climadao, if you remember, like, the Olympus fork that was this 3-3 meme that was, like, super high APY, and then they were offsetting carbon with a yield that they made and stuff like that. I think that's important to mention here. Then we have Pump.Science that was, like, this also kind of, like, Pump.Fun, like, meme coins that funded Deci. I think that was super interesting. I think there was this baby token. I don't know if it came out of that, but it's also kind of related. It's, like, a meme coin trying to proliferate making babies. And, you know, also related to Deci and fertility and, like, research in that area of health. I think that's cool. I can ask the mother-daddy meme. Yeah. And there is also the... Gnomish was a super interesting project from a hackathon that I heard about that was using kind of, like, dusted meme coins to fund public goods. We'd love to see that come to life as well. Then there is, I think, like, another interesting topic is, like, NFTs. You know, like, there is Public Nouns, for example, that they do an auction every three days, I think, of a noun, and the Treasury is committed to fund public goods. And, to be honest, like, Nouns itself, which has a huge Treasury, also focuses on funding a lot of public goods, you know, and they amass a large amount of money. Yeah. Purple Dao as well. Purple Dao, right. Yeah. Yeah, and just jumping on that really quick, like, you know, we were... I was looking into... I was talking with Griff and making a presentation, and I was like, what are some public goods projects that have successful tokens? And most of them are actually governance projects. Like, most of them are just governance tokens. And so it's also really funny that I feel like in the Web3 space, we're like, oh, Daos are sticky. Governance is terrible. Nobody wants governance. But, actually, I feel like when the Treasury is lucrative enough, then the governance has a lot of value. And so, like, that's why things like Nouns and Public Nouns works. It's like, you know, it's just, you know, you want to buy the NFT, the funding goes into the pot, and then you use that NFT to govern where the funding goes. It's also fun. They have a lot of fun in Nouns, right? Yeah. And fun. It's the community aspect that we were talking about before.  Totally. Belonging, right? And when you become part of a group and you feel a sense of belonging, you know, that's valuable. Yeah. But that's, like, the Dao thing. It's like, I have a governance token. I'm part of this community. I am, like, I belong here, and also there's, like, the I direct this, and I have power kind of thing. So, I think that we really underestimate the power of governance tokens. Yeah. I think so. I would love to see more experiments with this. And maybe, like, more vision experiments into governance, which is, like, Future Key, for example, I think taps a little bit into those more, like, vision things. So, yeah. I think that's also very interesting to explore. I think we can start answering some questions. I see the top one here is, some regions have self-conscious beliefs about money itself being something corrupted. How can we heal our relationship with money? I love this question. It's so good. James, I see you, like, right over here. So, money is a tool. It's not good or bad. It's just how people are using it, right? So, I think choosing what your perspective is on how you're focusing on money and recognizing that there are a lot of really great things that we can do, not only in this space, but just, you know, globally, if we are choosing to use our resources in a wise way. The people that I think are not – that aren't using money as an effective tool are just, you know, coming from a scarcity mindset and are ultimately acting out from that. But you don't have to live from that perspective. So, just understanding, you know, what the tool is and, you know, how you want to interact with that tool is really important. Yeah. I love what you were just saying. I was thinking something similar. One perspective I like to take is thinking about money as a game. It's like the money game, you know. It's this points game, and we're kind of just, like, playing this game. And if you can kind of, like, abstract it in that way and decide how you want to play the game or when you want to exit the game, whether you're, like, I'm not going to let money rule my relationships or I'm not going to, you know, let money kind of, like, change my perspectives around things. I think it also has to sort of be a bit of, like, an introspective self-searching process about your relationship with money and thinking of, like, ways of abstracting that. Like, money is a game. It's this point system that we created. You know, I can put as much into it as I want or not. Yeah, I love money as happiness points, right? You made a bunch of people happy, so you got some money, you know. That's what it should be. Unfortunately, like, you can't make people, you don't get money for providing societal value, you know. So, you know, you get money for extracting, right, a lot of the time. So, it doesn't always work. And that's the problem is that our money system is broken. It's not happiness points. It should be. But if you are minting public nouns, you know, and you're funding public goods with it, I know public nouns probably most people wouldn't consider it money, but you're issuing a token, you know, and that's making people happy. So, it's kind of cool. Yeah, I totally agree with what you say. Like, something that completely changed my relationship with money was, like, understanding that what James said similar, like, money is just like a communication of value, right, like a tool to communicate value. And if you look at the history of money, then you start to understand how also natural it came about, right? Like, people were trying to make the value they were providing to society more liquid so that they could, you know, exchange it for something for the future so that they, you know, don't get stuck there. So, once you start, yeah, like, just the tip here would be look at the history of money, and then you will have great realizations, I think. Let's see the next question. What are the potential roadblocks for making, I guess this is QX, successful? Yeah, I assume it's QX. You know, the biggest thing that sucks about QX is that people are putting in money and minting tokens, and we live in a world today that's very controlled by governments and legal bullshit. So, we have to do KYC, basically. But it's cool because we don't do KYC, like, none of the teams or us know our customer directly. Instead, we're doing this ZKID. So, people go to a third-party service, get an NFT that they can use to prove that they're not from, you know, North Korea or the United States of America, you know, because that's what we have to do, which is so fucking dumb. Crazy you put those two countries in there. They're together, though. They're on the list. Those are the top two worrisome ones, unfortunately. You know, I didn't make the list, okay? These are what the lawyers say. They say, watch out for North Korea and the U.S. because, like, those guys will get you, you know? So, you know, we have to limit that, and that just creates horrible user experience. You know how horrible it is to have to put in your fucking passport or something? Oh, my God, you know? And then, of course, like, half this panel can't even play. So, you know, that's the biggest roadblock is these dumb laws that are preventing us from doing fun things. But other than that, honestly, it's like a downhill race because the incentives are aligned for everyone. Projects get an easy token launch. Like, CoinList charges, like, $400K to launch a token. That's what a friend of mine was offered from them to launch their token with CoinList, whereas here they're getting a grant that subsidizes them to launch a token. The ecosystem, instead of giving a grant and watching their tokens dump on the market, they actually get a token sink. They put their grant money and their liquid token, in Polygon's case, it's pull, and give it the cases, it's give, right? And that give locked in the bonding curve actually attracts more give or more pull. It creates token demand. So ecosystems love it, you know? And the community, I mean, the community, usually they're either stuck doing nothing. They have no say in how grants are given or anything, or they have to vote on something and it's complex and scary and they don't know, you know? So it's a lot of work. So it's really this magical win, win, win. So that's all downhill. It's just the legal friction. Yeah, completely agree. Like, for us as a lot of PGS, that's also, like, the biggest blocker. So, yeah, regulation, tough. Yeah. Would you like to jump in? Yeah, it's great to see questions flowing in. You can also upload and press heart emoji. I was going to say, can we answer that last one before we head off? Or are we even cut off right now? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Sure. We can read. How can we make sure that the region narrative is not used for personal gains by bad actors? Can we make the whole flow of funds transparent and verifiable? I mean, I think this is kind of like a natural characteristic of Ethereum, right? It enables to have this completely transparent. Although I understand how some people might still use it and try to hide it somehow. But, you know, I think just using smart contracts and, like, trying to be as much on-chain as possible. And, of course, this, I guess, becomes a little bit harder when you, yeah, when you need to verify, like, the organizations that the money is flowing to. That becomes, like, a little bit harder and decentralized and thus, you know, a point of trust that is harder to solve. But you guys at both Uptent and Giveth are solving that, right? Yeah. I was going to say the other thing about, you know, mitigating bad actors is social pressure.  Shame people. Like, if you see people doing crappy stuff in the space, that is honestly giving us a bad look. It's like why so many people, when you go and talk about crypto out in the real world, like, have a very negative worldview. Like, yeah, shame. Shame people. I think it's a very powerful tool. And it's part of the power of communities, too. It's like people want to be part of something. They want to feel the sense of belonging. So that kind of, like, you know, exiling that happens on Twitter sometimes when something bad happens. I mean, there are, like, you still have to be careful. You have to be careful in the crypto space anyway. There are sometimes these, like, regen-ish tokens that pop up that are kind of scam meme coins. I've seen a few of these. They're like, we're donating to charity. And I'm like, this seems really sketchy. So, I mean, I think you have to, like, individuals have to do their own research. And then protocols need to ultimately build systems that are safe and on chain and, you know, verifiable so that we can kind of protect that. And then, like, no matter how hard you degen into it, it only funds public goods. It's, like, design the system so that it's, like, the bad actors are just, like, in there chasing their profit. And that actually creates a positive benefit for the ecosystem. Yeah, I think a good example of this is ClusterMath, the ClusterMath algo for QS. So the most quadratic funding rounds these days are actually run by a new algorithm called COPM. Thank you. Connection-oriented cluster mapping. There you go. I just call it the ClusterMath algo. And so to game the system, you have to donate to many projects, right? That's the best way to game the system. Yeah, the way that it works is it basically clusters together donors with the same pattern. So in QS, you know, the projects with the diverse community, like, the most diverse community or the most donors generally would win, would benefit the most. But, like, the way that cluster mapping works is that if, like, ten people all donate to only one project in the round, it basically, they're, like, you guys are all the same. You count as one, you know. You count as one person donating to that. So they square root all of those donations added together. Yeah, exactly. So it, like, really mitigates kind of, like, it actually, like, what it does is it encourages people to go out there and, like, not only donate to the project they really want to benefit, but, like, maybe a couple more. You end up with this, like, really nice democratic distribution of funds that becomes more even and more fair. Yeah, it's really cool because it's, like, you do a bunch of work to onboard your community to QS, and then you have to tell them, hey, like, also donate to a few of your other favorite projects, you know. That's the strategic way to play, right? That's how you game the system. And that's, those are the kind of incentives that you need to put in place when you're, it's, like, okay, if you want a Sybil attack, donate to, like, five projects, and that's the best way to Sybil. Aligning incentives. Game theory. Yeah. Yeah, and then for probably our last question, can you go into more detail about Harberger Tax? I think it means Harberger Tax, and I'll be honest. I'm a little skeptical of Harberger Tax. I like to equate it to Demerage. Demerage and inflation are basically the same thing. Inflation is what all governments basically do, right, where you have a dollar and they just print more dollars and it makes your dollar worth less. Demerage is the same mechanism but with different user experience, where your dollar's denomination goes down to 99 cents, right? And so you are suffering a little bit in your mind, but it's the same outcome, you know? Your dollar's worth 99 cents, and that's the same thing that happens with inflation. It's just it's still called a dollar, right? So that's Demerage versus inflation. Harberger Tax is like instead of owning something, you have to pay rent on it, right? So there's lots of cool Harberger Tax experiments where you buy something and then you also have to fuel it with a stream to the previous owner or like maybe the creator or something, right? So there's a stream that's like taxing you for owning it. But if you see all these NFT experiments, all the ones that integrated Harberger Tax kind of failed, whereas public nouns and nouns in general is kind of like the inflation version of Harberger Tax, where it's like, okay, every day we're going to mint another NFT, and that's going to inflate the value of these NFTs. You're going to inflate away some of the value. But you still have one NFT, and you don't have to pay rent on it. So I love Harberger Tax in theory. It sounds really cool. But in practice, the user experience, just like Demerage, is not really appreciated. Okay. Thank you, Edrion. Thanks, panel, for our wonderful talk today. Thank you. Thanks. Thank you. Can I quickly answer the last question? It was how do I increase my luck in all these raffles? Fund public goods. Donate more. Donate more. Donate more. Donate more.