# Layer 2s: Scaling Solutions and the Path to Mass Adoption | ETHDam 2023

- Channel: [CryptoCanal](https://streameth.org/cryptocanal)
- Date: 2023-10-07
- Duration: 46:45
- Watch: https://streameth.org/watch/yt-060NBHKWXx0
- YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=060NBHKWXx0

## Description

Proto is doing protocol R&D at OP Labs.
https://twitter.com/protolambda?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor

Raza is in charge of developer relations at Scroll.
https://twitter.com/razacodes

Joshua Bowen is a CEO of Astria. 
https://twitter.com/Jskybowen

Victor Sizaret Developer Relations at KasarLabs.
https://twitter.com/starkience

Panel moderated by Pim. 
https://twitter.com/cryptobelix

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## Transcript

foreign so coming up next is a is a panel on Layer Two scaling Solutions in the path to mass adoption so I'd like to introduce the moderator which is Pym from Maven 11 so please give a round of applause [Applause] you can sit here and then um you can introduce your panelists it should just it should work just speak just speak hello hello so I'm Bim with Maven 11 a um I guess homegrown amsterdam-based crypto VC with me I think I've brought Josh maybe you want to do your own introduction yeah hi I'm Josh I'm the CEO and founder at Austria also brought Derek better known as Proto Lambda hello everybody I work at LP Labs work on Layer Two go right at um I'm star clients I work at casual labs and we're a research and engineering company on stocknet and finally Raza yeah I'm the only guy with a picture uh Raza I work I'm a devra at scroll where uh later to ZK vmrolog so this is a panel on l2s adoption I think in particular of l2s I think maybe to um to sort of set the stage uh I think it would be interesting to look into sort of the scaling roadmap that ethereum and sort of all the l2s seem to have taken um so curious this is an open question to everybody why do you think sort of everybody seems to have converged on the same path towards scalability so we've moved away from old school things like execution charting these sorts of things why are we all doing sort of the same things right now oh take a step at this question so um this ethereum such various different things have been attempted and there was this long talk about ewasm sharding and many different forms and shapes in the specifications and then really like get into the clients as we know them today and I think this is partially due to like constraints on only ever being able to do one thing with one group whereas with Layer Two you split the problem into many smaller things that Specialists can work on and they can experiment and they can be competitive you have this market for us that creates a lot more forces a lot more creativity to execute yeah actually if you look at Roll-Ups um they're built on top of ethereum right and they inherit the security of ethereum so it's way easier to build a roll-up than kind of rebuild your own new chain from like bottom up so as a rope you just have to focus on scalability issues and not on security features which are already on ethereum yeah it's also I think something Proto was getting at was like the governance issue of like trying to get like everyone within like ethereum layer one to actually adopt something like sharding requires it to be like a very very robust solution from day one the moment it's implemented Roll-Ups are able to do this kind of progressive um like development process and they're kind of permissionless in their nature of like development like you can put a contract on there you can choose how you write data to ethereum you can do that on your own it doesn't Force everyone who's using ethereum to use that roll up from day one so it just allows the development process to be like less bogged down by kind of like a bureaucratic process because it's not forcing everyone in it's like an opt-in method yeah just to add on I think maybe from a different angle I also think like specifically for zero knowledge uh I think things uh the tech move developed much faster than expected so that's why you see like maybe a conversion like a faster Pace towards the adoption and application of zero knowledge and then I think the number two and maybe it's also what you're saying it's like the developer experience right I mean uh the fact that whatever you did on L1 you can do now in L2 without you know it's seamless you know you know it's an RPC URL change um makes it that much easier it means there's no actually new audience to acquire that's just like people know like hey we understand the problem and now there is a solution for us and then you see this Mass moving towards that and at the end that helps the growth in the space and the pace as well maybe to to sort of piggyback off of this do you foresee any sort of social or technical developments happening anytime soon that would maybe steers away from the current roadmap that we're going I don't know advancements in maybe Hardware scaling or could be anything on like a social uh front uh or do we see this as being sort of the way we're going and we're going to continue going this way for a very long time well we'll see both things happening right so we have many different EFM related scroll ups and so to differentiate you have to build culture you have to find your ecosystem but then at the same time there are technical improvements to be made in these things as well and maybe it's time for like a layer two standard for the evm maybe there are other improvements to be made um but yeah there are these two different fronts with culture you can have a strong roll-up and in a technical sense you can also have a very strong run-up I also seen like this trend that at least on Stark net some people are like Hey will this layer 2 ever become a layer one and you know it's a big question because you have this uh really cool layer one so could this other really cool layer become Alero one as well but it's a cool thing but it doesn't make sense since ethereum already is super secure and is focusing on decentralization so let's actually continue building this other layer that's focusing on scalability yeah I guess I'm a different perspective on it I guess just coming from like the celestial ecosystem right building on top of that and seeing like a possibility for kind of a new technical Improvement on like the base layer being kind of more specialized to like it's just going to do data that's all it's going to do and so that's an argument less of you know ethereum going towards like a sharded World road map and doing execution and more saying well okay if we just lean into the roll up thing and say well okay the roll up to what they want out of an L1 is you know by and large just like data throughput with like Security on top of that then you can see customization there you know and I think we're seeing obviously like ethereum work towards you know a similar thing you know it's not going to like a minimized layer but it is you know working with 4844 and then like dang shorting after that to improve throughput but but I don't think either of these are like pointing us towards you know execution charting it's like the future it's more like okay we're doing the roll-up thing that seems to be going pretty well let's optimize for that yeah I think um so from a culture point of view culture I don't know like how to apply I definitely think that disruptive maybe not empowering yes where I still think that web3 hasn't come to the masses yet and regardless of ux UI and the technical side of things I just think that's like a general uh component of Education missing which obviously we need to solve the text side of things but if you look at something like taking a sidestep what I think the reason why I believe open AI to igbt took the World by storm if I extremely simplify it it's complex stack like when direct to end user and then they could use it boom and I think that from a cultural point of view or education point of view that's that's still missing in web 3 that's will be solved from a technical setting let me provide a different perspective because all panelists had had great answers I think something that um uh regardless of Roll-Ups and and Ezekiel side of things I think the whole dimensions of layers is changing because if you look at modularity which I don't think died out but seems like to the discussion has gone on the background l3s is becoming a thing with land starting you know the the Bonsai mocha thing and uh and a fuel for instance on execution lay which you know operates outside of the dimensions of layers because you can be in and it doesn't deal with data as it deals with the actual only the execution part of things so I think that there's definitely some things that left and right at the corners of my eyes that I'm looking at thinking hey exists outside of the dimensions and worlds of Roll-Ups that uh I don't think disrupting but can contribute towards solving a scalability issue um which I'm also stoked about and then and then to my previous Point uh in the in peeps question but we're not there yet so for ZK we're also like we're still still very much you know maturing is not the right word has applied correctly and optimized and developed that makes sense maybe dedic you mentioned a layer two standard for EVMS how would you see that so like the challenging parts right now with layer one is that we have one or two um upgrades per year at best and so a lot of these layer twos are trying to move faster they have a mission to move faster and specifically for these type of application layer changes there is the resources to move faster but there's not the standard to move faster and there's this subtle balance between like trying to avoid fragmentation overall also trying to be like modular and competitive and these things they Clash there's nothing that prevents if you enroll UPS from introducing something additional to the evm but aside from this cultural thing that we shouldn't try and invent the video again with EPM features and then diverts between all these these things like these roll ups together in ethereum it works a lot because they're still kind of similar a lot of these value like ads that you have in one roll up they are to another roll up and like ethereum has this this Edge over other chains which is recognized where okay we have thin layers that are trying not to not to do too much and then this culture to try and build on top of that without creating more fragmentation although sometimes we do see more of these these ecosystem splits which I don't particularly like okay so you do see somewhere maybe a balance between standardization it can be a future where there's a layer two standard of some kind but again if we prevent fragmentation because this would only hurt the ecosystem okay maybe diving into the technical side a little bit in terms of you know fostering adoption with the release of sort of alternative da layers like Celestia as Josh mentioned also of course 4844 and then full on tank sharding coming somewhere soon TM I guess um what do you think that'll do in terms of adoption like what sort of factor of additional adoption do you think we'll see and do you think the technical side is really what's been sort of the main hurdle for now or do you think user adoption is maybe uh you know hurdle somewhere else so the majority of the costs on layer twos today fast majority like 90 or more is just data cost and so improving this data cost whether it's with OTA like Celestia or whether it's with some layer one improvements it should have really improved the usability of layer twos in a way where not in terms of ux but just in viability and being able to support new applications with lower costs and yeah I think that changes the game although it's very difficult to speculate on on the demands and on the supply of of data like that whereas it's this causes balance between security you don't want to stress later on too much and you do want to like provide the space to these Roll-Ups that are actively competing and growing yeah maybe like unpopular opinion because you mentioned user adoption in our inside our bubble yes but it won't make the bubble bigger I just don't think so it's the same like I'm [ __ ] stoked about sorry I'm stoked about uh zero knowledge but it's not gonna make my grandma use the blockchain so yeah I think that's my short answer I think yes within above 100 it solves problems but it like user adoption generally speaking now yeah and I'm not quite that bearish maybe and that like it won't help at all I mean I think it's like a factor right if we say like okay the average transaction cost is like 10 times cheaper you can have 10 times more transactions someone will find a way to make some you know application that is either better than an existing one or an improvement on an existing one that will get some at the very least marginal increase in number of users using it but I think you know we can kind of take lessons from like Solana here and that like Solana has like you know essentially like functionally zero you know Gap you know zero cost transaction from like an end user perspective but it does not have like you know the super high quantity of like users relative to um ethereum so it's not like the only thing that is necessary there however you know one of the big things that you know drives a lot of usage to ethereum is like there's a large depth of liquidity there and it has the highest security budget right so if you combine that with like lower transaction fees you will see like presumably an increase in things if it's just because of use cases or it's just because there are some people who say oh I'd use the chain you know five times more if it was ten times cheaper or whatever yeah I think definitely cost is a big big argument here as well transaction throughput but um also the way you kind of build your application where how will you display the fact that a user has to pay a certain transaction like if it's a newcomer and you display the transaction fee like what's the user experience like will they just abandon their process or will they just go through it or you know another option that they may have but attendance day you also have to think about in terms of the user's interface and user experience and how do you actually include all of those um like visuals uh for newcomers for new users of the ethereum chain yeah I think doubling down on that like that there's just a reality that like using a blockchain right now like for any application is like pretty technical relative to like anything else you do in like a normal app but it's not just technical in like the friction it also has like a literal cost associated with it and then there's additional friction and having that cost right okay I'm a user I need to go get a coinbase account to go use like a Divi app or whatever and I need to make sure I get my token so we've introduced technical complexity but also they say hey I want to try a thing and that's going to cost me like a dollar and one of the kind of like you know sad realities of like consumer applications is it any free and any like cost even if it is like a wholly trivial cost it's like consumers do not do like accounting like a business does accounting where a business will say hey I'm going to get 100 the value out of this I'm happy to pay ten dollars you know there's a reason that like when we saw you know the app stores gain prominence they were all like oh it's 99 Cents for an apple collect like a dollar on the app that's like nothing you can it's very easy to provide at all or value to someone but you just like I'm just not going to pay a dollar for this and so all the apps were free and they monetized on the back end and every B2B application has like a free trial because the reality is like having to pay first introduces an enormous amount of friction and so if we want to draw in you know a very very large kind of additional cohort of users we probably are looking at something in this kind of account abstractiony kind of Realm where you can say okay the transaction fee is zero for the first whatever transaction there's a lot of complexity due to like civil attacks and sock puppets and whatever that like prevents you from doing kind of like any naive design for like gasless transactions but it's very obviously like something that every other consumer application has done is reducing that friction for an end user and that's probably the the biggest lever that would bring like a large new cohort of users into the ecosystem well you mentioned bringing the fees down maybe for new users by doing these sort of gas subsidies at the same time arbitrim for instance set to make I don't know it's like 10 million I think annualized Revenue just by running their um their single centralized sequencer whether this actually ends up somewhere in the hands of ARB token holders this I don't know but you know at the same time this sort of notion of decentralized and also shared sequencer networks has taken some hold at least in the current mind share of uh of crypto so what are your sort of views on on this whole process of decentralizing these sequencers uh L2 is plugging into into shared sequencer networks these sorts of things yeah like obviously building like a shared sequence where I have like an enormous bias towards like this question here right I think it's a compelling idea you know one of the things I view very like beneficial about it um similar to I think like like Proto's earlier point on like um the ability to innovate right is like one of the benefits of a shared sequencer is you can view it as like a decentralized sequence that lets you innovate on a state Machine by making a new state machine if you can kind of resolve the composability issues you can say okay we're not giving up you know our decentralization work you know I see it as kind of a resolution to difficulties of progressive decentralization and we use kind of the marketing term of like you know decentralized by default right it's kind of a goal if we want to have an abundant world of like you know a dozen roll up so Roll-Ups they're like 10 nothing Roll-Ups or whatever um to like the the arbitrum point right I think that's actually like an interesting point on like how that could be used to do like this kind of fee abstraction um we'd love to understand like the starkware perspective because as I understand it like dark where it doesn't have um transaction fees or at least some of like the applications building on Stark net you know I know like dydx got a lot of users initially by just abstracting gas fees so this is a potential area where you can use the treasury I don't think that option goes away if you decentralize the sequencer you know fundamentally you know going from okay we have one entity it collects all the transactions fees and thus has control over how to redistribute those transaction fees whether it handles that through a dow governance process or whatnot it still kind of has kind of control to some whatever kind of you know uh system it uses to distribute that control over a larger pool fees whereas if it does decentralization there's presumably going to be some amount of like Mev extraction there's a competition for whoever is running these sequencers and some subset of those it may be a large subset of those fees might not want to be redistributed users so there's kind of a fundamental trade-off in control in your ability to like improve a user experience but I think that's just an inherent trade-off of like centralization versus decentralization if you're centralized you have more resources and more control to provide a higher quality user experience the kind of difficult game we're playing here is trying to solve that problem without kind of using that you know fallback to Let's like centralizing a point and then saying oh we can resolve all the problems with like a centralized kind of middleman there I think for most Roll-Ups decentralizing the sequencer is definitely on the roadmap if you look at what starkware is planning on doing what they did was kind of split their roadmap in three steps so first focus on functionality then focus on performance and then on decentralization right now we're focusing on performance um and most of the time when people ask you okay how do you decentralize the sequencer they tend to think of it in a function or in a technical perspective but you also have to view it okay how do you decentralize it in terms of your community so for instance what starboard did was kind of start this Foundation back in January where they would identify core contributors to the network and then those core contributors start participating in the delegation of protocols updates let's say on the network so that's also a way to kind of decentralize your network another way is to do maybe open source most of your the parties on your layer so I know that there's this organization called only dust what they do is that they kind of onboard devs that are developing on stock net and they kind of participate on open source projects and then exchange they kind of get some money so it's also a nice way for newcomers who's talking to easily to start making some money so that's also another way to to start decentralizing your network right just making everything open source and maybe if another way is to also rely on some external contributors I know that Lambda class is rustifying the Cairo VM so they're moving from a pythonic to a rustic Cairo VM and that's also another way to maybe decentralize it it's just all right let's have these external people kind of come work with us and improve the our core architecture of our layer to to make everything work better I guess so in some ways I think you you are into that a little bit in terms of how can you decentralize and maybe also how does that compete with some other ecosystems because in some ways you all seem to be working on somewhat competitive uh projects obviously we've got like starkware and scroll and the the op stack slash super chain So within that sort of competition for user activity transactions what do you see as sort of the main thing um that you are doing to to stand out do you feel you even need to stand out at all um but I think you do and in that perspective sort of what are you doing to to be different from other l2s from other ecosystems right so I think we have a lot of Open Source it's about creating this community of people that feel that they can make an impact but then also be rewarded so with optimism we're trying to make this a thing it's like core to the protocol virtual PTF where every project that contributes to the ecosystem gets rewarded for their impacts by the governance process and like this abstract thing like just rewarding your contributors figuring out how to balance open source contributions just shifts this thing from like closed Source companies to like a whole open source space that can be competitive and Innovative where Alternatives can exist even for the same protocol and like that strikes this nice balance where you do not fragment but you do get Innovation you do get Alternatives you do get creativity within your thing and I think that's something other chains other layer ones might be missing where things look very monolithic yeah we walk we walk I guess on a similar path where scroll um is open source since day one uh very close relationship with the ethereum foundation maybe to approach from a different angle because obviously like we also have like Community being very like Community First um continuously we ask ourselves what is the value we bring to developers um I think that there are multiple ways to approach it as someone who Tinkers with stuff a lot uh a friend of mine Patrick Collins I was talking to him and he said ask him what makes you pick a chain you know he's not he's outside of the chain because because really it's Death By A Thousand Cuts so it's not necessarily what attracts me to a chain it's like it does it work as promised like is it you know if you're getting started page like how is that is it really like copy paste or not and so I think that when it comes to chains in its core maybe it's almost uh boring because you know it's it's like a it seems monolithical uh like the other panel has mentioned but there's a lot more that you can do to bring value like rewarding core contributions is one thing another thing is is that understanding the needs for developers and what kind of services do you provide or not service I don't know like the work service but what kind of value do you provide alongside I think one of the things that Solano deserves credit for is to pair my knowledge is that did it help developers and early this project rays are very easy and and their Hacker House experience was extremely well so I spoke to Solana does myself and they said these are things that come back so it's really like understanding the needs of your devs and Community by that sense and how well can you help them from zero to one and one to hundred even if that means that you're operating outside of your own comfort zone so I guess like um I guess that's my answer it's very much like scroll continues to think like what is the main value that we provide to devs understanding that also the end game is is that killer the killer adapts are a build on your chain but uh but doing it not not saying that other parties don't but doing it in an ethical way and in a conscious way there's also not one roll up for every single use case out there so um let's say obviously I'm biased and I'm more focused on starknet if you look at what stocknet has and what they do is that for instance you could do generative art on chain or an on-chain game because you have this programming language that directly communicates with the prover to generate dck proofs which makes everything kind of more efficient so having your own or by the way startware is not evm compatible so we're not even compatible because we have this own programming language and because you have this own programming language so you communicate with approval more easily and you in a way you you start making more efficient verifications in some way one also other cool thing about stockware is that they um just the way they they communicate from the layer 2 to the layer 1 which is just a the way they deal with data is this logarithmic compression so everything is much more lighter when you verify it on the layer one so picking your roll up definitely depends on the use case and if you're looking for something that's very intense in terms of computation then maybe you're more looking into Solutions like starknet but if you're look if you have another use case maybe you're looking to to optimism for instance I do think there's an interesting question of kind of how you um how you differentiate or roll up while kind of avoiding fragmentation it feels like there's some kind of fundamental Push Pull there of saying like my rollup is different and better while also being exactly as compatible in the same thing from a developer perspective you know you can see things at like a consensus layer you know we've seen arbitrum have a lot of discussion around like Fair ordering right and so you're like all right maybe arbitrum decides they want to be the chain that has like you know Jane Street and like jump trading at it because like latency game is like the most optimal thing to trade there and so it's like the most well capitalized whales trade on Arbitron because they've chosen like latency as kind of how they want Mev to be extracted whether they choose to admit that or not um you know versus you know we also see arbitrum going with kind of like stylus which is you know falls in the broader like evm plus category whereas you know optimism's kind of super chain has shown to kind of be you know maybe not horizontally scaling but going like horizontal with like kind of different use cases right where you'll have okay bass is probably going to be a really really good way to on-ramp or or on board like a very large number of coinbase customers but fundamentally when it comes to like a developer perspective right there is you know if you maintain 100 compatibility then at some point you're kind of the same unless you just twiddle the block time which at some point kind of again will just compress um so I still think there's like an open question we're just at a you know small n enough of like Roll-Ups right now that like okay once we get to 10 everyone to be like why are there 10 Roll-Ups that are all 95 the same you know the 11th person is going to have to be like okay I guess I'm not going to be as compatible with the others because I have to find some unique value proposition yeah but maybe also like if I made like to the panelists uh come from the web to world I guess we all have like a relationship with the web to world uh I had this discussion as well with a friend of mine is like okay yeah every L2 just looks the same like another L2 like yeah but we wouldn't want one cloud provider would we so but we only have three no right now yeah unfortunately that's what that I don't think there's a fourth coming up I'm not I'm not bullish on Oracle Cloud no but and I worked for the middling third right so and I would say unfortunately because I think choice for the market is good so and and you know behind the scenes I mean sure AWS Azure did a little bit Drift But that's exactly my point it's like you could you could say they all sell cheesecake in a little bit of a different flavor but I think the one thing that a consumer misses is choice so I'm not necessarily as opposed to having yeah no not a derail a conversation repeatedly but I think we do see this evolving in the cloud World we're taking the largest participant being like Lambda not like Lambda class right but like lambda's new entering but like very specifically they provide GPU compute optimized for AI but like they had to differentiate right they are not you go to you know AWS Azure gcp you can get a hosted kubernetes a hosted you know S3 compatible API you can get a compute thing you can get a load balancer you can get everything that is exactly the same like literally when GCS launched it was intentionally API compatible with F3 so very similar to like we want the Roll-Ups to be all compatible with each other because that allows you to be a seamless copy from an end user perspective but at some point all their margins just drive down you know they rake something in like a 66 margin and if you're a large customer that drops much luxury lower um and which is why they all kind of differentiate on you know trying to have a different database whether it's like Cosmos DB or dynamodb or spanner or whatever and now when we're seeing new entrants in the market they're saying okay well I'm going to focus on being the AI compute chain so with rollups I think that's what we'd see as a thing if we say okay well there's arbitrum and there's like optimism and there's like scroll and you know ZK sync and um you know polygon ZK evm right like and then there's bass which at least has like you know a very obvious like immediate onboarding experience you're like what is like the seventh evm compatible roll-up going to do that like justifies its position in the market and make stuff say oh I'm gonna pick you over the other six options on the table right that's where I think we start seeing like someone has to do something new here and that's where we're going to start risking kind of fragmentation and there might be like an inevitability to that yeah so I think small point I think there will be fragmentation but I also think that there will be there will be new subtle nuances so even if you look at you know the the ZK roll-ups the reason why types exist and then soon like even among type the same boxer types there will be trade-offs between gas fees and security so I think that I'm not sure if it's enough to differentiate but the definitely will be depreciation and especially when the use case with high volumes yeah then gasps makes a may make a lot of sense and then so I I'm not sure if the differentiation is going to be enough but I definitely see that happening that big differentiation being there and I also feel like yeah I definitely think with modularity you know not to throw a buzzword or high board in it but that this I think that just like slams The the whole whole board in into yeah disrupting the dimensions of layers so I'm hearing a lot of sort of developer adoption um and then trying to differentiate to some degree um Joshua also mentioned bass I think we've heard it before in this conversation what do you think about the sort of I guess corporate Roll-Ups like a bass or consensus is uh Linea like they are I don't think they're focusing that much on differentiation but they do have this Edge in terms of user onboarding that maybe um also the current ecosystems don't have so are you in favor do you strongly dislike them are you sort of mad about them curious to hear what you guys uh opinions are I can give like a kind of like cynical take of like like we've seen coinbase Trend towards like anything is it good for like coinbase right coinbase is very heavily trended like engineering resources towards like focusing on like decentralized things right they have like coinbase wallet they're just Levering more resources into kind of like staking and potentially they'll look at like non-custodial staking um and and you know bases like a similar strategy to I think what we've seen with like mantle and like bit now where they're saying like Okay if we are like a larger entity in like the billions of dollars what is our like identity within web three or like Where Do We Gather kind of our like resources and people are starting to realize like oh we can have our own chain and that can be where we kind of gather all of the different things we are working on under one kind of like house and that gives a cohesive picture for coinbase it says like okay well would we want to kind of do you know Partnerships here partnership there have to renegotiate every time we say hey we have base we have control over that you know they have um you know what changes they want to do that's kind of like within their power and therefore it allows them to kind of vertically enter a great while still being within the more decentralized side than something on like coinbase.com right within that um from like a differentiation like I don't think bass needs to be like differentiated bass can be like bog standard like op stack it like Works quite well um and they'll just say like look we have like all of the users in North America we will just put a button on coinbase.com that says like hey when you buy this would you like to get five dollars free on base or would you like to click this button to bridge to base and now you have the on-ramp everyone else who does not have that is going to have to differentiate because they don't have however many million users that they can just seamlessly give one click button and say great they're onboarded you know um it from their perspective it makes like absolutely perfect sense because getting a top of funnel is like ridiculously expensive you have a top of funnel just go monetize it okay it does make sense but do you agree with it do you think there's maybe some centralizing like issues here in terms of this one company basically staring millions of peoples into their preferred roll-up yeah I mean they're like a US publicly traded corporation like the government is going to have some like requirements there like you know if tornado cash is deployed on that like someone's gonna have a conversation and be like hey maybe don't do that um maybe just remove that code and we'll find out like how exactly permissionless it is and it all kind of falls into this kind of like deal with the Devil middle ground thing right like do we end up making a half step and then getting stopped where we say hey they managed to onboard another million people and we just like doubled the number of like people like within like this you know region using like Roll-Ups or like ethereum on like a you know daily active users but they're actually having like a half experience because they're all kyc'd and you know whatever is that like better and I guess it fundamentally is just like well do you think if they go on base they're only ever going to go on base how okay why theater the bridge is going to be we haven't yet seen like Capital controls on like Bridges between chains yet if it's a roll-up right I think you like that's structurally kind of like hard to do but we'll see like is you know if you use like the super chain contract with like a bridging thing then my presumption is like that won't be like kyc'd so you can say well okay if you're on base you're doing kyc whatever but you can always just go bridge to the L1 through like the you know enshrined bridge and then you can just go Bridge up to somewhere else and at least you got your foot in the door so I I think it's like certainly like a net positive here we'll see if we just like slam into a wall and say oh actually we got like 10 million people on but they're all used to kyc things and they'll never move away from that you know is that a win I don't know okay I couldn't stir the bolt enough I uh I guess I was hoping for some spicier opinions guys um I don't know how much time we have left to be honest maybe as a final question sort of what is your spicy take uh with regards to l2's do you have anything you want to um put in the minds of the audience so we're seeing this this frequent fights on Twitter are like what's the right chain what's the right thing in general like we have thick layers and thin layers that they just try to solve many problems at once or fewer problems if we figure out how to stack them together well how to keep things coherent how to create this culture of contributions and open source I think that there would be less fights and I hope that for some of these roll-ups we can see that contributing back to ethereum the spicy takers that I don't really see this happening but within Roll-Ups I think we can create this codes here that's yes you can run the same stack and you can enjoy working together on modular open source yeah maybe to throw pepper and salt on it and so it wasn't Lisbon's like a similar question and someone on the panel was pretty convinced that there will be a shared sequencer or the multiprovert theory which if for people don't know is basically means you know there's a shared prover Network used by multiple let's say linear scroll and polygon and uh yeah I think I'm more on the cynical side where we have to recognize that there are a lot of people inside this company that are there for the community join web3 for the ethos and whether that's close to ethereum uh Foundation principles or not that's that there's something generic there that there they want to provide value for developers however there are still companies and uh and and there are there are objectives and strategic goals Etc so I have difficulties seeing that there will be there will be that level of cooperation uh from based from what I'm seeing I have hope on the research and Engineering side of things but I definitely think that there will be more of more of a competition that's sometimes how it feels definitely if I if Twitter Tech Twitter says anything it seems like you know all the all I see is Jabs and stabs so um yeah I I think that that's not then I really hope that that there will be less fragmentation Etc but what I think is going to happen is a more aggressive uh strategy on acquiring and onboarding um and uh a more a territorial approach uh as as L2 rise and especially like we haven't seen the end of it who knows how many artists will still come so we're not done yet though I will say I will end it on a positive note that I think that many of my friends are at competing l2s and we talk about all the time on the tech side of things hey what's your approach on uh helping hackers and bills I was just talking to the devra of uh Linea okay I was doing this I was actually recommending truffle I spoke with the devil eye polygon so it's like I think that there's definitely multiple angles at the community of multiple dimensions in the community that will stick together yeah I guess I can double down with like one more spicy take here I think this might like centralize it like the app layer and maybe the l2s all get abstracted away like if you take like aggregator Theory and look at like Google and you say like Okay Google goes to like many websites but like do you care what website you're on you could get to a point where you're like all right you're trading on like uniswap but like do you care which chain your funds on you to swap are if that is completely seamlessly like hidden from you in the ux gets cleaned and now we all just use uniswap's wallet which has unit Swap and unit swap is the aggregator across whatever chain so and maybe to close it off but my spicy take is that incompatible evm chains are actually very very powerful um and that you have many ZK evm compatible chains and you have somewhat some uh incompatible evm chains and that people shouldn't just focus on oh this also this is ethereum talking to ethereum let's go with this one you might have have some major technological improvements when it's oh this is not ethereum this is not solidity but it can talk to ethereum I might consider that so um there are some major major benefits when it comes to transpiling and talking directly to your crew around today too that's clear I've got two more audience questions that I do want to get through so first question was do you think the time to achieve hard finality in optimistic rollups might be an obstacle for Mass adoption think uh Plato this one's for you so there's this confusion between two types of finality there's a finality of making things irreversible if the inputs that are roll up are on layer one the batch data is on layer one it can be irreversible as soon as the layer one makes it irreversible and this is not different between any roll ups this is a property of the layer one and then there's this other property of finality in the Legacy version what we call the how quickly do you see what happens on Layer Two on layer one and I think layer twos with bigger ecosystems and shared sequencing shared proving systems we won't really see this problem much but then fundamentally you do still have the optimistic proofs be slower than the zika proofs because of the dispute period time I think we feel like I think it's been termed like optimistic ZK Roll-Ups right where like the amount of like battering time to make like efficient VK proofs will be like less than like the seven day window but you'll still probably use like ZK proof long term as like a finality Gadget but like there'll still be like an optimistic window but I also agree right like the finality that people talk about is like fundamentally finality from the bridge which is a light client of the roll-up so it's really like when kind of like client get like sufficient finality that can verify itself and that is one of either like a seven day window or like a VK proof I do think we'll Trend to VK proofs once they're kind of generally available easy to use and like easy to use kind of more broadly rather than just being like you know scroll's done a great job getting like a zkevm going but like everyone else will use them when like it is like generally available Tech and you can say okay I just took Geth and like jammed it into like a ZK VM and got a proof out and that didn't require like three years of r d yeah yeah okay so the last question is what are your thoughts on app chains operating on the L2 level secured by mainnet I think we can make this into maybe a more general question around app chains app Roll-Ups um what are your Visions there so we were talking about um what it means to abstract over these different layer tools and with app change that's like the real fragmentation thing where oh suddenly everybody has a chain and I think you'd want to build like an interface and a culture around all these chains figure out like how do you how do you have users move between these app tents because like this beauty of blockchain in a ways that you can use one default application and then the other without really thinking about moving within them but now with more chance and more bridges you get a lot of pain braces are insecure also but roll ups being the most secure form of bridge you could have imagined like a roll-up ecosystem where you can secure the bridge between them and then there's this Margaret opportunity for the best Bridges between them the best abstractions between them and maybe that means shared sequencing networks um who knows yeah there's still some space here for for new uh new projects it's really great and just calling out like dark way right like like dydx is an app chain roll up in like this context and I think again to like the zkv endpoint right like dydx works because you can have like a non-evm thing that can just be put in like a stark generator you can go to the VK proof of that you can validate that on the L1 that's fine and good and we'll probably see more of those yeah and in terms of their user experience uh one major thing being built is just this idea of account abstraction where you have you kind of abstract the idea of what's an account on ethereum and you actually implement this other idea that okay every account can now become programmable and modular where you add some features so for instance there's this thing called the hardware signer where you can actually start validating transactions with your face ID because you're using the secure enclav of your iPhone for instance and then you're using like this biometric authentication system so your face ID or your fingerprint ID to just you know validate your transaction so all these features being built and being implemented into your ethereum account actually will drive Mass adoption of I I guess I'd say that the blockchain level um yeah web3 Mass adoption yeah split in the middle um because I kind of I kind of think that uh you know supernets and and subnets I believe from Avalanche you know and so application specific chains I kind of see it also as a door towards you know Mass adoption uh having worked I think most people have worked for an Enterprise it's kind of like the thing that appeals them a lot so looking at the market and an adoption of of the that end of things uh whether I want it or not it seems like a great use case where you could spin up your own chain and you know maybe use uh you know depending on the type of Architects you make use of the validators you don't make use of the values bring your own validated um so where do I see it going I do think uh where I see going this more and more application specific chains or even and I haven't done this is something I have to dive into like l3s like the fact that you know uh lens came with its own LT that was okay okay it's now something and uh so I do think that it's gearing towards it um and it's definitely happening and I also believe that it's a it's a way to mass adoption I think I'm getting the sign from Jonathan that we are supposed to stop now so I think I'll leave it here thanks a lot guys for uh for the panel guys give him a hand [Applause]