# PANEL: Community Interoperability (Devcon5)

- Channel: [Devcon](https://streameth.org/devcon)
- Date: 2020-10-09
- Duration: 42:32
- Topics: blockchain, smart contracts, distributed ledger, ethereum
- Watch: https://streameth.org/watch/yt-11VO61097A4
- YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11VO61097A4

## Description

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https://archive.devcon.org/archive/watch/5/panel-community-interoperability

Vitalik Buterin, Terry Culver, Josh Swihart & Jae Kwon discuss Community Interoperability.

Speaker(s): Vitalik Buterin, Terry Culver, Josh Swihart, Jae Kwon
Skill level: Intermediate
Track: Society and Systems
Keywords: panel, zcash, tendermint, cosmos, etc, classic, coexist, technical

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Devcon is the Ethereum conference for developers, researchers, thinkers, and makers. 
Devcon 5 was held in Osaka, Japan on Oct 8 - 11, 2019.
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## Transcript

thank you all for coming to this wonderful community and for a interoperability panel how is everyone feeling this morning [Music] raise your hand if you're not feeling I'm glad to see you on this dear this is good so I guess maybe to start off how about you know ever all of us I never introduced ourselves and the communities that we represent sure my name is Josh White Hart I'm the vice president of marine business development for Z cash or actually for the electric coin company which is the inventor in supporters occasion my name is J Kwan and I am the co-founder of tenements and the cosmos project I don't represent the cosmos project I supported and Terry Culver CEO of etherium classic class so first question is a challenge question do we think that it's in the long run even possible to have enough multiple coin communities peacefully and operating or as the maximalists say are we destined to be stuck in a Hobbesian war of all coins against all until one point coin wins and we have one single global cryptocurrency so for me I mean absolutely even the pluralism I think different communities are gonna have different coins for different needs and that work in different contexts so I don't believe in a winner-takes-all kind of model but I do think that they've collaborated with you I also agree I think that one of the things that we don't see yet but we'll probably see more in the future are things like local currency coins or local local municipal cows and so on and every one of those they may not all have their own team but there will be their own community that is distinct from other communities so this I think that's just as one example that shows that shows me that there will be many change but I agree I don't think a winner-take-all future is really viable you know we all live our lives as parts of different communities already with different values I don't see that changing in the blockchain and crypto space so what so one thing that that that I've heard there is and of talking about communities and values right and this is not a language that you normally hear people I never used to talk to talk about like currencies right like you know normally hear people saying oh I've us and use US dollars because I support US dollar values and I'm going to switch to euros because down with us and Uriel is amor I'm going I'm going to switch to like Raymond beer or yen or whatever other currency like this is not something that happens right now yet and I mean people don't even do this with stocks right like you don't even see that much of people saying you know I love I love Apple so I'm gonna buy Apple stock like you kind of happiness but maybe not too much so it's like I guess why do we expect this will change I think it actually is tribal right so we have we have our own currencies that work in our own way in our different context it's just that the the tribalism historically maybe has been physically than digital and so maybe that dynamic is what's changed I think we haven't had maybe the the technology and we still don't have the relaxed or for a large number of people to use multiple points and further to the competition among points and for like people in the United States to to support one point which is the other certainly the regulations don't allow it yet but I think this will change as the industry matures and as its adopted by the community despite what the powers that be my want but I don't know when hopeful even the most three years okay so I just kind of turning things a a bit we can talk a bit about the technical collaboration right so our different communities have their own indifference I would walk chance that they're working on but we also end up hearing a lot of tech right so for example here I'm at the engineering classic share a large portion of the of the tech stack in etherium and Z can't Ozzie cash is based on zk stocks and a theory I'm happily employed sneaky snorts the cosmos shares a lot of cryptography so do you think we're kind of doing a good enough job of and of coordinating on how we improve the technologies that are shared between us and if not what are some things you think we can do better on I think we could do a much better job I think you know manage blockchains are facing the same fundamental questions and I think many of us are trying to reinvent the wheel I think we can identify those questions and work on them together one of the things I told me and to add to that I think one thing I learned along this journey is that if you can define a protocol of communication between two components of a text example not more like a to consider text I prefer blockchain there's so many components and if you can well define the protocol or the interface between these components then like you can have different communities responsible for their flavor of implementation and so you can have competition for a module or component but ultimately all working towards a whole is its pluggable so I've experienced that once and we're trying to also push for that in other regards like with with a consensus antigen tenorman what the a BCI protocol for example but it's also obviously in Imperium with the API and so on already exists as well I think it's helpful to be intentional right rather than passive so passively you know we can borrow technology and thing but but we can accelerate much more when we're intentional so you know getting like to added a symbol and work between Z Cashion and they like to coin company I think is hugely important for the allowing interoperability in the future so you can use new cash within within defy that's unlocking some you know some other things and potential with with work on my client potential immigration list with cosmos for example but those those interactions and those conversations don't happen passively they happen generally when people are in the same room together and they're able to kind of sit down and think and they're thinking about selfishly about their own project what they're working on but the magic can happen and the collisions can happen when folks get a room mm-hmm so if we suppose that imagine a future where communities are collaborating more what are some positive results that you could imagine our hope to get out of that well the Z cap should be embedded in more contracts so you're able to in the places where you need that that kind of privacy that that's there to the extent that like things like ZK snark sort of the research that our departments are doing and being able to use that with an ethereum independency cash I think is super cool so for me those are a couple but I'd love to see a more intentional organization that brings various communities or representatives or people from various communities to start to have these conversations like you mentioned a theory em is playing for the crypto community to large stand today maybe we can reach well how do we reach out to all the projects what what is that association so I'd look to see something like that I think if there is like kind of set the standard for that right of bringing all of kind of these disparate developers and projects and things like that together it's been phenomenal so it's kind of its kind of the bar that had been set I think that really how was it but I was with betting I guess yeah now I'm not saying one question how is it that III 'm is able to do this whereas like other projects don't how was the theory am able to do collaboration whereas other projects don't yeah like how was it Betty theorem is better able to collaborate with desperate like many projects hmm I mean part of it I think might be just the fact that etherion has had a kind of NC maximalist ethos and it from the start like in the case of like Bitcoin there's definitely more of this culture of like this is no budget point or these are the widget coins and if you're not alleged coin that you're a scam and the theorem community has its own opinions about what's alleged point and what's the scam but I feel like it's kind of broader and have brought broad broad enough to allow of collaboration among technically good projects to happen so just like recognizing the legitimacy of different approaches is the first steps are cooperating with different approaches I think the other thing would be cool is like it if beyond kind of technology collaboration we figured out how to do a better job of working on things like product market fit or things out in the field where we're engaging together with the community to reach populations and to try to solve a specific use cases where we're not really doing that today we kind of where it doesn't feel like it maybe we're kind of coming together and we talk about this stuff and we engage technically but when it comes to the kind of actual execution on the ground there's a little bit less of that that kind of collaboration I think creative collaboration speaks to the way in which block chains have to grow up I mean you know we don't expect to get a corporate strategy plan that's costly and printed and everybody follows it this is an iterative creative process for which there may not be any one single right answer and so to do that you need an increasingly diverse community with increasingly diverse ideas and and debate one question I have is um every time I fly I feel guilty because of the carbon footprint and in the cryptic community requires a lot of flying in order to me and like you mentioned being in the same place is what makes the magic happen but I feel like for us to scale to a larger community like at some point we're gonna have to figure out how to make this work without flying and but I don't know how to do that maybe the the thing you wouldn't need is more kind of grassroots like I never local a lot more of our ability like what it should if the Auriemma Japan and cosmos Japan be talking to each other more mmm yeah it's like the arena for friends and we're already in Japan should maybe should we should we be chatting at least those of us who are in Japan yeah same with Korea same with like Taiwan same with China same with anything so regarding the kind of community aspects of in interoperability area well actually so one other question we have is like we talked about there's technology and there's a kind of collaboration because of shared technology and there's also this idea that enough different coin coins of different blockchain communities stand for different values and like ideologist against maybe to start off like what are some of the key things that you would describe each of your community communities are standing for well I think the theorem classic was originally defined as a statement about governance and it wasn't really technical at all it's since taken on a technical agenda and that'll become stronger over time I think at the moment and this is something that's evolving right I think at the moment it feels very closely tied to the idea of immutability even though that's not exclusive to aetherium casa and the idea of security so that you could foresee a chain that focuses more on maybe transaction finality and larger fewer transactions and you know the more spawn transactions so on Twitter yesterday I think Bob somewhere well described ETCs being if eth technology and BTC values I mean do you agree with that characterization do you think it's more complicated than that I mean I understand the ETH Technology Park I don't understand the values he's referred to I would say it's different I think the community itself is distinct characterized by that that ability to move in a different direction around governance and and that's historical and now trying to Bish's position the community in a way that enables it to collaborate I think I would position us really as being in a place where we're looking to collaborate very strongly for cosmos maybe the key value is interoperability we do other things too like like offering security and consensus algorithm happening and making the making sure that the hub is permissionless but the core product that the cosmos hub is about connecting to other blood chains and creating protocols for interoperability between box chains so in Toronto in sovereignty so giving groups their own block chains communities their own sovereignty your own ability to dictate they decide what happens on that block chain yeah I mean for us all the elites freedom moving easy captures classified as a pricing point but you can't have freedom without without privacy or the option to privacy to be able to protect which what's yours like I've been talking about like a friend of mine Nimmo who is a Syrian refugee and Moe had a business had bank accounts in Syria family family homes and was forced to leave because he was protesting and government locked down everything so he no longer had self sovereignty over his own his own money and the government could see all of that stuff right they can see all of it because they control it and it's in their context and they have access to bank accounts and all that kind of thing so when he moved he had to move to Jordan he hadn't rebuild his life and that's when he got into cryptocurrency he's like I need I need to be able to protect my wealth I need that freedom and I need to be able to do it private privately because I don't trust any of these kind of government entities to to have access and visibility and then the other thing is like we talked even it's it's a personal security but it's also business security and it's even national security so we've seen the impact of data being used by a foreign actor in Russia trying to influence another foreign actor in the US based upon the manipulation of the population from data that they collected and so it's a national security imperative that that government's actually mandated some you know privacy for for citizens and so that's what we're with that's kind of seeing the core core values in the abacus I see an interesting disparity between the answers here Josh's answer is about and of Z cashes values with respect to and of concerns that people in the broader world would have whereas your two answers were more about like this is our and these are the values that our blockchain expresses with respects to other watches or with respects to the blockchain space so I guess like first of all do either if you disagree with freedom and privacy no I don't disagree with it but but I think each of these are nuanced okay so privacy for example like how do you I think the thing that we don't know yet and and the thing that we should try to answer from an ethics point of view of designing you know answering the question what should we design for of course we want to enable privacy but if we enable complete privacy of transactions and account balances how can that be abused in such a way that that may not be easy to use today I think there's one arguing to say that for example terrorist funding is more than much easier with with us USD cash that's what they use however if if you make the USD cash or really easy to transport then it just becomes that much easier as well to to conduct private terrorist transactions that's just one example but the internet right the internet made it easier for terrorism the internet made it easy for terrorism because they could pass past information along peer-to-peer or whatever without any kind of central control but there's no argument to kind of expose or make all of that invisible in the opposite is true like we have now mandated basically HTTPS Everywhere we're fed up with all of these kind of honeypot databases where everybody's collecting individual social you know data that could be hacked by China or whatever third party so it's not like any of these tools could be used for for terrorism true so maybe I'm not I'm not disagreeing and I don't know what the answer is I don't know what the answer is I'm exploring it but like at least with sites like I can choose not to associate with this site for example but when you're talking about privacy preserving money if I don't want to support you a currency that is being used by terrorists as an example I feel like I won't I wouldn't have a choice if we designed a system wrong so yeah I think I guess my point is we just need to be cognizant of how we design these systems so that we don't get locked into a system accidentally teri do disagree with privacy and freedom absolutely not I think you know they're essential for the kind of economic independence that we're trying to do so like in cases where there is kind of different emphasized values one thing that's sometimes of worth kind of sorting out is is it just a difference in priorities so like for example I might imagine that theory people are clearly not into privacy and we even have tornado god cash now but like when choosing between I know like universal general generalizability and privacy if the REM is clearly going universal generalizability first or as you guys just go ahead privacy first but like there's not a big incompatible but it there there doesn't seem to be a big incompatibility because like if you can have both event eventually been great but other times you might have a values that are more incompatible with each other it's so like for example in the case of aetherium will we like group of stake and the theory of classic people like group of work and the Megatherium people seem to like shortly like sharding more and we feel like we're one scale and what is importance where icc people and then they feel that their security trade-offs are too much for that so do you think there is a kind of many so one of the properties of kind of trade-offs that are I have just differences in priorities is that if it's just a matter of differences in priorities then in the long run we might end up just kind of building the same thing like one person goes north first and then East the other person goes east and then first and then north when you still end up north east do you think there's a possibility we'll just end up building the same thing in in 10 years time I there's a possibility but we're so diverse as people and so opinionated I'm not I'm not sure how you know from a governance perspective how that happens there may be some like backstage I'm talking about murders or whatever but there may be some some of that kind of activity but in some things it just makes sense right so some of the separation makes sense so easy cash was was work off the bitcoins because Bitcoin core didn't want to add the the cryptography on top of Bitcoin it was too novel they were worried about it you know disrupting the network and so this other coin was born and this other coins he cashed them and explore you know different kinds of applications and properties that that you know they couldn't do on Bitcoin so I think it's a healthy dynamic and whether those two like ever come back together I don't know but there's value in the diversity if they do come back together do you think point mergers are possible do you think they're a good idea I think it's super interesting but it for me it's like this like two jet planes like trying to kind of come together in the middle and and stored a whole bunch of stuff out and so I think when that happen I think it will happen I think it will be interesting as as kind of a experiment and in the space I'm not quite sure the mechanics of how it would work but I feel like maybe it's more likely to happen if if they're working on different directions sub stuff and they complement each other then and if these projects like governance or decision making legitimate legitimate decision-making systems such that it's clear that they agree to do a coin merger suppose we're talking our clarity we're talking about at layer one coins emergency not like two other like two years ago 20 tokens I think it's quite likely that we don't end up in the same place at all and I think that's because the you know the value is acted as expressed in technological choices will result in different usage mmm-hmm and I think over time what could happen is that certain coins and certain stacks are seen as you know the best for certain you type in use cases and you know you go to one chain one type of transaction and go to another chain for a different type of transaction do you think G cash and Manero have different uses I don't think they have different uses I think with both of them the intent is for the coin if I understand Manero correctly we use as a medium ultimately as a medium of exchange to not have broad-based kind of some program ability but not like storing complete program ability layer one I mean that I think the court kind of what we're trying to accomplish is really similar and it's actually really interesting because like online on Twitter if you have using Twitter it looks very combative like these two projects are just at each other and that's not the reality you have certain actors that kind of play that up but like it adds econ one the last D cash conference we had in Manero and remember America conference was in in Denver but we had like a co panel between the between the two projects they say there's a lot of it's that's actually shared do you think the C cash and the narrow communities have different values I think some values are different yes such as I think that the the sort of like how for example some of the governance and how funding decisions are made and whether or not there's alignment of coin holders with developers you know the grants program right now that the cash is funded octane and so the question is like how much is necessary to secure the network versus how much should be used to fund development is that the right kind of model so G cash community largely believes that that's the right kind of model the incentives aligned between the coin holders and the developers were Manero doesn't share that thing yeah one thing I've noticed does a kind of possible general general trend is that developers are general like seem to be more willing to be friendly with each other than and if community members are and it's one reason I feel this might be the case is that developers often do have kind of aligned interests in that developers see each other as both just building cool stuff and they want to see cool stuff built where as point holders like if you're at Z cash point holder you 1z got to succeed and you ain't got no man heroine zero point older than they you want Monero it's a sexy it then like some people might have both but lots of them you know it God knows he - and even in the etherium community you know like some of the more and maximalist push that we've seen in this come here is coming from people who aren't the developers so are there risks that could happen if kind of developer communities are lines but broader communities are not aligned and probably the developers will get Outkast mm-hmm I don't see no that's possible though I mean at the end of the day the developers are the ones building the change I guess the question is what's the tolerance er of elasticity of debate within a particular community if the developers have a significant disagreement with the community well they can for them if the community has a significant disagreement with the developers they could buy a Bitcoin I'm not sure where that line is and I think it varies depending on the issue maybe it'll get easier for a community that disagrees with the developers to just fork it and to create structure to wind down just like elect people and then kind of we have the write down system I feel like this developer new developer network might be able to evolve and mature how are you defining communities who is it it sound like it was like coin holders developers but is the community broader than coin holders and developers oh sure and and hopefully in time it becomes even much broader to really users but I think at the moment at least 10-minute beans we have there's a kind of almost 500 buffet where you know there are folks who are developers and you know and then there are folks who are and there's that interaction between it so one other dynamic I've noticed is that I sometimes get the feeling that extrange ly enough collaboration may be more possible when ideologies are more incompatible and so like one example of this is that even if you what happened in a theory in area and documentarian classic in the long term then in the one term like sharding gives much greater layer one throughput than not to in charting and brief mistake gives a different security model than proof of work and there's people that are diehard proof of work people that are not going to do brew at stake and sharding like legitimately make security trade-offs capirotada can be arts are not doing charting that some people don't want to accept and so Weinland kind of effects that comes out of this is that of both communities this might even feel safer because there's we know that there is kind of one base that's going to use one thing and it's not going to end it's not willing to switch to the other thing because the trade-offs are just unacceptable it gets not even like better or worse it's just like what one side thinks is better as it is if you from the perspective of the other side is making things worse and so one side is going to stay over here the other side's gonna stay over here and that actually but could making people feel like collaboration is possible because there we know that there's no risk of one side pulley eating the other side would you would you agree with that you think it's more complicated no I would agree with it certainly in the case of the theorem classic in a theory you know as etherium is moving 2.0 we've taken the opportunity to you know reiterate our commitment to proof of work and then start to figure out how we can complement each other in that space maybe maybe it may be a corollary it articulates that if you if you take a community and you segment them into distinct ideologies and you need to find sub communities and maybe maybe it can accelerate being the growth of this project do it the right way sometimes it's so ideologically misaligned and just can't happen right so if you have so if there was a nation-state that wanted to create a digital currency with the intent of completely surveilling and manipulating their people then that would be in congruence with our mission we just wouldn't do it we just couldn't work together independent of that okay so we know that cryptocurrencies are going to exist as a category and he had currencies are going to exist out of the category but will there be more than two points okay different Fiats disagree so they'll be multiple Fiats but are there like can we come up with more examples of kind of pairs of cryptocurrencies where it's kind of just obvious that one direction is different from the other direction and they'll both continue to continue to exist I can't think of any others at the moment hmm you can't no I can't be so any others between like aetherium a Bitcoin well I mean I guess in a macro level but but how much you know tangible cooperation is taking place first cooperation taking I'd say there's cooperation taking place kind of implicitly even between a pyramid Bitcoin like we're using in some case the same sac be 256 K one libraries you get such a thing with staking tokens if you need distinctive validator sets and especially for regional validator sets but maybe you might have the validators with different ideas of how to secure their system so for all each of these faking sets they would have their own statement of it as well but it's not clear to me what the market count ratio would be between speaking tokens and cryptocurrency cash doesn't I could I could see the amount of privacy and generality a trade-off as being a kind of not 100 100 percent resolvable as well privacy and privacy and generality like you could imagine general-purpose privacy but there's there's trade-offs that you have to make there like one example of this is that C cache believes that under forcing everything to be private whereas like we're more of a a world at hey we're illegal block just like you do what you want well the gadgets of Attraction ality right so you should have the option to be able to disclose your novels right and then but that you know there's all kind of arguments as to why you need openness whether it's things like audibility or things that maybe please we solve with technology I don't know it sir is there are there Maximus out there that believe that privacy shouldn't happen that should be completely people be open system I am I was just kept presenting visiting like Korea for a week and I got at least five media people asking me questions of the forum like don't you think privacy will enable criminals people definitely exist in the blockchain canoes hmm I'm sure you're aware of your own coin being delisted from a couple of exchanges I am largely because of misunderstandings and some banking concerns but I put up a good fight for you guys there so actually that brings up another play another point which is there's a aside from kind of tech and applications a third frontier a find a possible collaboration as kind of outreach to the broader public which could include include regulators he could include kind of getting public legitimacy in general do you think there's more than we could do on that side yeah I believe there's more that we can do on that side in some cases like I had referenced early the kind of the need to be out I'm in the community and some of the stuff work were running some pilots where we're pulling in different projects together to collectively educate like the pipe the initial public Maryann was was in the South Bronx to pick but let me educate students and what we learned about the use of of cryptocurrency the South Bronx is per capita the least unbanked population in the u.s. the reality is is like what once we got a teenage there all of us came away completely blown away by the insight of the students that we were kind of engaging with and they flipped the script on us but that was the project that you know brought together like Casa who like doesn't support easy cash for example Jim and I flex a number Masari a number of projects kind of came together on these kind of efforts and I would love to be able to you know see more of that kind of active collaboration what one thing that was interesting in terms of regulators and sometimes it's really it's really difficult his okx like opx had said that they were going to do lists in cash and then yesterday I got a message from them saying we decided to put this on hold and we're putting this on hold while we do further further investigation it had to do with doubt of travel requirements but it was both d'caché and - but we didn't collaborate but we went in separately and had separate kinds of conversations but I think it would have actually been even though there's some ideological disagreement between the cash and - I think there it would have been beneficial for us to kind of collectively game plan on how we work together to provide you know additional information to new information to regulators that can make better decisions one aspect of community outreach that some of us are exploring is for example working with people who are a community of people who are interested in like ethical software or how to make sure that we design for our ethical systems and I think broadly in general maybe the questioner should be asking or I feel like the question that I should be asking is like you know what kind of monetary system should we design into the future and I think that comes with so many questions and communities that have different opinions already to do there so there's a need to reach out to those communities and not necessarily like indoctrinate them with blockchain but like understand all these nuances so that we can better design our future yeah I think there's a lot more outreach we can do and really in two ways one to the general public I think there's still a lot of misconceptions in the general public about what blockchain is what it can do what people do with it and the second is you know really engaging certain participants in the ecosystem who don't typically you know participates in a forum like this we spend a lot of time engaging with regulators with exchanges with custodians because they actually can have a significant impact on the ability of the technology to see what our adoption and there's a lot more education that I think needs to be done there about what strengths and weaknesses of the technology are what the roadmap is I just wanted to bring up a tangent you know so we have different ideologies of communities representing different ideologies I feel like what we will not just pass but the world is to get better at is allowing these communities with opposing views to have discourse together and I haven't really seen good software or interfaces to allow this to happen but it's like what did it great if you can have a long-running discussion where the end result is like almost a conversation between representatives of two communities such that then anyone from both sides can read and understand all the nuances like that with maybe help us transcend a lot of critique and at the end of the day though like I'm sure there is there's the one inside like what we will end up agreeing on and that's good like that's why multiple platforms exist yeah so you know it's nervous I guess if there is kind of one and if one simple thing that we can start doing more of just to get the benefits of coop of kind of collaborating reduce the harms of anti collaborating over the net over the next few months that we expect between our community is like is there any kind of one simple a example of something we can do that Papa that pops out in your head which I'd like to see more kind of working groups again like I think it there in in this kind of community is is fantastic and welcoming and warm and there's a kind of all this opportunity for collisions but I think if we're more intentional like for like for us and that there in foundation for example to be able to have regular times where the core like photography developers engineers could come together kind of work through ideas and plans inviting other folks like you know a Matt was in here earlier for thesis or other people in the community and kind of lay these kind of ideas out there and then also look and in collectively work on funding mechanisms to allow for some of these other kind of potential contributors that can provide something a little between between squiddy's I think that would be great well I guess one is enabling communities to have a voice in the likeness of what I just mentioned like having discourse so maybe there are other things that can happen by enabling voice for a community the other thing I asked myself often is we need to physically meet in order for this kind of no dialogue to happen but how do we scale it so that we don't necessarily have to travel if we can crack that I feel like we would have a much more rapid iteration rate of discovery I agree with that and I would simply had stopped trying to debate complex topics on Twitter stop can we debate complex topics I'll read it like it's better but it's still centralized what about memos on cash memos on cash yeah it's like this make worry just like dump call bets on the Bitcoin cache blocks yeah that it's okay because they have 32 megabytes or something great clever okay well thank you very much thank you thank you thank you