# Are we there yet? State of onchain infrastructure and tooling | ETHWarsaw [4] - Channel: [ETH Warsaw](https://streameth.org/eth-warsaw) - Date: 2025-11-09 - Duration: 58:39 - Watch: https://streameth.org/watch/yt-4Q6VC7lGcHg - YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Q6VC7lGcHg ## Description We’ve scaled, modularized, indexed, abstracted… but can your mom use the app? A practical look at the state of the onchain infra stack from L1s and L2s to RPCs, wallets, and OSS. Speakers: - Marta Adamczyk (SubQuery Network) - Evan Slattery (Base) - Krzysztof Urbański (L2Beat) - Paweł Zaremba (Chronicle) Moderator: Łukasz Stoczyński (Mimic Protocol) 🎥 Recorded at ETHWarsaw 2025 Follow ETHWarsaw on social media for the latest updates! X (Twitter): https://x.com/ETHWarsaw LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/ethwarsaw Telegram chat: https://t.me/joinethwarsaw ## Transcript Introducing Wukash um uh the chief octopus at Mimic Protocol. Uh moderating the panel with him we have Pavo from Chronicle, Marta Subquery, um Evan Slayer from, um Coinbase and Kurbineski from L2 beat. And now I'm going to hand over to Wukash and I'm going to shut up and I'm going to give you the stage. >> Thank you, Paulina. I think that uh having three E4so members here on the stage means that like we're true builders and that we're uh you know in the infrastructure play which is I think good. Um so yeah so today uh we've got a really great lineup and um what we're going to discuss here is like are we there yet? So in the you know previous B cycle um you know everyone's been focused on infrastructure like we need roll apps we need you know better oracles we need better indexers like we need better infrastructure so people can build applications so uh what we're going to try to achieve today uh in this panel is to establish like are we there yet are we ready to onboard builders and uh you know if the infrastructure stack is enough how it is or is there more innovation uh in front of us and like do we still need to grind a little bit more in our um in what we all are all are doing and um and yeah and basically um start building the applications um so um yeah I Paulina did the introduction so um so I think we can skip it um so um yeah I think like the the question I would like to start this panel and like it's an open question, feel free to to pick up the mic. But um if a web two developer joined this room today to build a mainstream app, would our infrastructure stack be ready? Uh and like would they be able to easily build an onchain app or would they just run away? >> I can maybe start. Um hi, I'm Marta. Um head of BD at Subquery and one of those three people who are part of Evorso team. Thanks for having me here. Um we had I'm not sure how many of you saw Dabd Dan presentation. Uh he had a keynote here like an hour ago and he discussed a lot of it. Um and I think that there there is a lot of infra to link and it's much better right now where we are than we were like one year or two years ago. subqueries. Um we are working we are on the market for four plus years and as an infrastructure provider and when we started there were not so much so much diversity. Now we have way more tooling and way more um bigger number of providers which is great because developers have more choice. Um a lot of teams are putting a lot of efforts into developer education which is also important and great but we need more standardization. We need better dogs and we need better developer engagement I think and um when you look at reports around what is the influx of developers into our ecosystem um we see Ethereum is still there on top but Salana is catching up and the influx of new developers is quite big in in Salana. So there is a question what Solana is doing differently why there is an um there is an interest in in becoming a developer in Solana not in Ethereum and then another thing is that it looks like from the data from the last year that we have lot of new developers coming into the let's say broadly speaking blockchain ecosystem but the group of those who stay around drops in one year. So it looks like they're coming here, they look around, they start building, right? But maybe there is something there is a gap that we need to fill. Um and probably we all will be talking about that what we can do if they are not stick staying around, right? So we see a massive drop in in uh in a year in the first year. So I will start with that. >> Hello. Uh yeah, really uh I think we're at a really pivotal time in that like even yesterday and the day before we were involved uh with the Urb boot camp. Is anyone here who was at the Urb boot camp? It's also on at the moment in the venue. So I'm not sure, maybe not. Um but yeah, they basically their their their goal is to take builders from zero to hero. Um we used base uh uh dev tooling and infrastructure uh for them to start deploying their first app. So I'm sure they're probably in the middle of their AI coding, VIP coding uh sessions. But I think we're really at a stage where people can come in, they they've know maybe they've prior dev knowledge but not onchain knowledge. The the docs plus AI using cloud things like that they're able to come to a point where they're getting apps deployed. They understand now okay we can just pull components from different providers um and they're getting their apps on chain. Um I have seen on on the other hand though I think from you know more institutional enterprise side there's a lot of uh you know web two companies now who want to bring components and and parts of their business on chain and of course we have the tooling there for kind of the the you know the developers who are looking to implement it but we don't have as much plug-in infrastructure I think for you know larger enterprises and things like that. So I think that's probably where we're at now. um there's kind of that that gold rush in terms of a lot of these businesses wanting to come on chain and utilize stable coins etc. So we're getting there but there's still more work to do for sure. >> Uh if you can pass. >> So my perspective on this is that like I'm old enough that I remember the times when in order to use a Linux uh workstation or Linux server you had to start by configuring and compiling your own kernel. And I remember back in the days like late '9s uh when we were doing this uh I remember all those very important serious people in suits uh from novel network for example who were explaining everybody that this technology is not going to go anywhere you know serious businesses cannot use the technology that's being created by some kids in the internet yet you know right now 30 years later Linux and open software is running the world so I and when I see I'm not a builder like developer myself but I work with a lot of builders a lot of developers and I see that there is a huge potential there is you know there is this huge energy and that it's already possible that we can already build amazing stuff using this technology I think that you know Coinbase is a great example like if you've ever used B app you know that we already can build really amazing stuff using this technology and there are companies there are you know there are people who already realize that what I believe as the biggest obstacle and the where I believe that we might not be there yet is on the legal front for example like I think that the for at least for me the biggest obstacle to onboard a lot of people in Poland into crypto is not the technology it's for them to be able to understand okay how do I actually report this in my tax report how do I treat this how do I like if I sell an NFT what did I what did I exactly do I have to pay a VAT tax for it or like you know do I how how do I report it? So these are things that in my opinion need to change and also there needs to be some kind of a mind shift that that it's possible it's you know that we can do it again coming back to the history I remember when mobile apps were this like new thing that nobody really understood and uh people were like this these apps are you know crunchy like we like our good desktop desktop applications you know you I I don't want to use those mobile apps again you know people's attitude changed like some people had to die, some new people had to be onboarded in order to in order for the for the world to move on. And I believe that that's the same what will happen with our technology. But the definitely from my perspective, of course, there are a lot of things that can be improved still. There is there are some gaps, there are things that we still have to build, but the technology is there. You know, we are free to build and change the world. >> Uh let's hope no one's uh going to die during this hackathon and we're only going to have builders. And I think first of you need to crash the if legal stage like it seems you have uh you know some some questions about the legal and tax side. So you have people over there that you know can try to answer it. >> Yeah. >> So sorry if I can add to it. Actually it's actually great and amazing that we have those people here. You know I think that the fact that the minister of finance gave honorable patronage to this conference like not not enough people really appreciate how big of a step it is. I've been working with the government and the regulatory offices for like six years now and the the shift in the attitude of course coming from the from the west and from from across the ocean but the shift in attitude is real visible and tangible already and I think that you know it was slowly but soon it will be suddenly that that we will we will wake up in a different world. >> Yeah, I I totally agree. Yeah, I agree. And but I wanted to say that crypto is actually scary for someone that uh comes from web two like a uh wellestablished uh technologies of web APIs or web applications going to crypto is super scary. I've experienced that multiple times actually. And the then there's the FOMO that you have. Uh like uh it took me a few years actually about four or five years to stop feeling a lot of FOMO. Of course there's a lot of FOMO still but like it's way less than than years before. And uh for technologies we have made a like great steps toward uh inclusivity and toward uh this whole system being simple because uh maker dao for example eight years ago has been building their own uh or our own I should say because we are like stem from maker da but uh h have been building their own tooling because there were no tools to help deploy or compile test properly and do the smart contracts in a way that is uh sustainable. So uh from a lot of bash which is amazingly the most popular technology in all technologies uh in all it uh from bash we go to simple tools like foundry uh and the whole suite of foundry that uh is uh easier to work with. So, we've made a lot of improvements, but there uh we've got a lot of things to do still. >> Okay. >> Can I add to it as well? But you were first, I think. >> Quick question. Um, what eliminated your fear? >> Uh, I I think I just uh like it was too much and at one moment I said, "Okay, I'm not going to think about it. I'm not going to think about the candles whether they are green or red like did I enter at the exact perfect time or something or did I waste all of my savings to do something like you just don't think about it and fortunately I'm a developer so I can focus uh on developing but uh Chronicle is working with prices so I look at the prices every day and this made things worse but uh yeah like it's just experience For people who are here who maybe developers for the first time and who have some fear, what would you say to them? >> Uh I would just say focus on developing, focus on bu on building. Uh you don't have to be like coding uh per se, but focus on building on ideas and on meeting nice people like here at Warso. >> Yeah. um >> wanted to add to uh to the threat because I started on a on a negative note um but there is a lot of positive aspects >> and um even if there are gaps and and there is a space for improvement I do agree that the tech is here and we are way we are in a different place right now than we were 10 years ago and there is a platform of tools like so many tools people can build on and a lot of have a lot like um established documentation and developer support so it's it is much better. But when I look at our space, I see a lot of infrastructure projects, a lot of networks, a lot of services around that. So like marketing, security, finance, but I don't see so many applications yet and also end users. So I think this is those are the gaps like we need more applications being built using our technology. we need more end users and I think it's also connected with um um lack of trust in in the space and if it comes from a developer and technical person this means something right because I mean if someone is if someone has lack of trust into our space no matter if they're technical or not it means a lot but if someone is technical and have fear or doesn't know how to operate in the in the system or drops the the entire interest that's not good so we have to change something And I think we have to focus on developer experience and also user experience because our space is highly uh intimidating and we want to drive broad adoption. We need to fight with the lack of trust and we can do it through great experience as an end user or or a developer. >> Okay. Thank you all. Uh it seems that we have got pretty much a consensus that like we are in a good place right now. Um so I want to dive a little bit deeper into into different areas. So obviously you know the big fight is always like L1's versus L2s like you know where should builders build like how should they assess and like how should they um decide like you know where do they onboard so first question I have to uh Evan like from your perspective do you think L2s today are there are there like production ready in terms of like you know onboarding uh new builders and users are we like still in some sort of a test net obviously you know you have you have some mature uh layer 2s like you know arbitrum base optimism that has been you know battle tested you have got some some others as well you know how how should builders assess them uh in terms of like you know where should they build and like if they're ready or not >> yeah know really good question I think um to answer your first question are we there yet um like we're all kind of building out and trying to figure out what the best way to do it is Bass has a is an L2 we have new companies is launching L1s. So, no one is really sure what what is the best opportunity um and but at the same time deploying our own chain and everything like that. We've received a lot of validation from the other companies who have deployed chains maybe not on Ethereum or or side chain. Um we've always believed really in the power of Ethereum and security provided by Ethereum but I think to answer your question there really comes down to who is your user base. Um, if you're developing an app and you want to, you know, optimize security on Ethereum, but you're not like a huge, uh, you know, consumer base, maybe Ethereum is the answer. But if you're really trying to scale and access, you know, subset uh, subsecond transactions and subset fees uh, for your consumer and your users, you probably opt for something like an L2. Um, so yeah, I think we're we're we're we're learning a lot. We're getting there. Um, interoperability then I think is the next phase that we're in or coming into. Uh but yeah, we're still building and still growing and and uh I think each builder has to decide what is the best uh for their application. But do you think it's is it still like a tech game that builders decide okay I I will build on ZK rollup or I'll build on optimistic rollup or is it more about distribution like okay if I'm going to build on base who can I access like what users I can access or like what brands you know back in the like last cycle we had polygon that you know had all those huge deals like uh Starbucks and uh few others that I can't recall right now that today probably no one remembers. Uh, and the tech is, you know, I would say it's not the best like it's not the best what we have out of the market. So, is it still the tech game or is it more distribution game if builders want to decide like on which layer two they want? >> Yeah, listen, I mean every every chain has its value prop. Of course, I can speak for for base and Coinbase like people do want to have access to Coinbase Rails, especially with their apps. if they're onboarding users, they want people to be able to onboard instantly into into their apps using things like the base app, which we launched recently. Um, we're trying to make it a lot easier uh to remove friction for any users. So, that's like a good value point for us. Of course, we've got a big distribution channel and wide network. Uh, and we're growing that builder network at the moment. Um, so yeah, it's really I think a once again L1, L2 or different chains. You have to decide what is uh most important to you. um you know >> okay >> I would maybe add to it that it's not only the tech and it's not only the distribution but it's also the support from foundation from the network team um like base is a good example you're doing a lot for for the builders and for projects building in the ecosystem. So when you build your chain it's good to make sure that you have strong partnerships and strong partners that are coming to ecosystem and will bring tooling and infra uh day one from the day one when you when you launch your chain and not every network is so much invested in building those relationship and I think it changes a lot for the for developer adoption. >> If I can jump in so like from from my perspective uh when like I think that we do not appreciate how how really amazing the tech that we are building on is and how open and permissionless it is when you are saying that like are we there yet and should builders build on on the L2us or or Ethereum that we have today like try building a on traditional finance rails is trafi there yet really because like I've been doing this in the past like I was working for the software company that was building on the traditional rails and you know it's impossible it's not like that it's not just is that it's hard. It's impossible to build this stuff in the traditional rails. It's impossible to build permissionless escrow, such a simple basic component of any crypto ecosystem. It's impossible to build permissionless escrow in traditional finance that you don't have to sign, you know, 30 pages documents to to be able to access it in the first place. It's impossible to build a financial product or financial experiment on top of traditional finance rails. Constitutional constitution da that was a cool experiment from a few years back. It would be impossible to do it like literally impossible to do it on traditional final finance rails. So in my opinion like yes of course there is long way still to go but the things that we already have are already amazing. the things that we are already have allow us to build amazing stuff. We don't appreciate a we don't appreciate maker enough. We don't appreciate ENS enough. And and I could go on and go on and you know for for for until the end of this uh of this panel. However, I would like to also point out to another thing. We because you asked about L2s and L1s and we like you know there was this debate recently if uh companies should like why why are companies still building L1's like why is circle or stripe going with their L1 and I will not go into that but I would say that it it absolutely makes sense to build L2s. We know how to build L2s. That's the only like Ethereum is the only ecosystem that knows how to build a proper L2 that will give sec like certain security guarantees to their users on top of Ethereum. How do you know it? You can go to this like nice website called L2B and you will see there which L2s are actually built properly and which are not. And we know that. But for example, if you have systems built on top of I don't know Avalanche or Solana, how do you know? You have no idea. like there is no one who can actually attest um from the third party if the system that is being built on top of it actually makes use of the security guarantees that the base layer is giving or not. So we have a lot of tooling, we have a lot of components available already on the Ethereum ecosystem that we just need to put into pro into use and you know yes the current adoption is not satisfactory yet. Uh I also you know I I also dreamed five years ago that we'll be in a different place today. However, three years ago with the sentiment in the US three years ago I thought that today we'll be in way worse place. So I believe that again I will repeat it again slowly but then suddenly once we bridge certain gaps from the legal to user experience to simply mind shift uh I think this will the the things will explode. Yeah, and from a developer perspective, uh, working with L with many of the L2s is a pain in the ass because they say they are compatible with Ethereum or EVM compatible, but they are not. And then we had to build our own library for example for uh arbitrum because they have uh different types of messages and they have a wacky system of gas calculation which actually changes uh based on the changes in gas price on L1 which is super annoying and hard to predict. Uh so choosing an L1 L2 uh from a developer perspective is one how easy is it to and how compatible it is is it with uh the base layer and also actually the the developers care for the security of the of the whole network and uh does the L2 take on the the security assumptions and the security from L1. So this is what L2B is checking. But uh if you want users and if you want adoption for your application, you actually need to look at which uh L2 is most popular and that's it. Like there's no other way to get mass adoption if you go and deploy on a chain that is not uh mass adopted. Uh, of course you can deploy to multiple chains because that's also easy, but then you have to figure out how to properly go uh between those chains. >> Yeah, it's good that you've mentioned the risks uh tied to a layer 2. Kristoff, I I actually have a question for you because obviously L2B is uh um is kind of our watch watch guard on the on the layer twos. um what are the biggest risks today still like in deploying funds into layer 2s and like you know if I wanted to put my mom's pension funds uh into NL2 like is that you know okay is that you know safe risky like how should people assess that so first of all it's a nuance question depends if you actually are putting your pensions mom's pension money uh on chain or are you putting you know the 200 bucks to to to play with something or if you are depositing some some important money for for example for an organization. >> I mean I if you want to have a you know a global adoption mass adoption institutions etc like the real money is like you know pension funds is like you know insurance funds that have got you know trillions of dollars that you know we want to bring on change. So I would be looking at you know 200 bucks on on a random layer too like no one really >> sorry actually I think that it is important on on on many different levels. Uh so of like I will get back to the to the big funds but I will give you an anecdote from my personal experience. Uh I have this app that I pay for my children um meals in at school and you know in order to in order to um buy those meals in this app I need to deposit money there then I can buy the meals and you know and then when the funds um go down I need to redeposit and my school changed the app provider uh from from one to another during the vacation period and there is like you should see the drama uh on the on the different uh Facebook groups because of course the previous app provider does not allow you to uh to withdraw the money that you've put there uh previously. So they can still buy meals for some other kids that are still using this app but not for their kids that are actually in the in the new school. And the guarantees that we are building or that we are supposed to build in the ecosystems uh that that we create in this new financial rails is that this would not be an issue because we like this these L2s are like those security guarantees that we are looking at are actually about are you able like will will you be able to withdraw your funds if this chains for example ceases to exist. Um and you know right now we are listing probably more than 100 different systems like probably around 200 already. Um and univer all those systems are startups and the universal law of startups says that 90% of those projects will be down five to 10 years from now and you don't know which ones. So you have to be careful when putting money there and because you can wake up one day and figure out that the system that you've put your money on s like no longer exists and this could be problematic because you you you could think that oh if I see the announcement that they are you know closing down I will withdraw your money. What if you are a fund and you are in a legal dispute that this allows you to actually touch this money uh while the dispute is ongoing and only after the dispute settles you will be able to do something but you can wake up in the world that the dispute settles three years from now and the system is already down. However, if the system is a properly built L2 like for example we we already have a precedent. So we I have a good example to to showcase. Dydx uh DYDX closed shop on Ethereum a year ago. Uh when they were turning off their servers, even though they had made a lot of announcements um ahead of time that they are turning off their servers, there was still like around $40 million locked um in in the bridge of DYDX. However, because if you look in the on L2B on DYDX assessment, you will see that it's greedish. And if you look into the details, you will see that there are in place mechanisms that will allow you to withdraw your funds no matter if DYDX goes down or not. So even though Dydx no longer supports the Ethereum deployment, if you still have funds locked in Dydx on Ethereum, you can today go to the escape hatch that we built for them. And using this escape hatch, you can withdraw your funds. And it's happening already like more than $10 million have been withdrawn uh using this mechanism since they turned off. This is this is exactly the uh the mechanism that I'm talking about. Of course, it's more nuance because >> the there there's I'm sorry to inter interrupt, but there's also this one important factor. You are not putting your money into the chain itself. It's very rare that that happens. you are putting this on uh in an application and you not only have to look at the chain and the at the L2 you also have to look at the application itself like does the vendor have an anescape hatch for you at least into this chain or uh if they go out like turn off the services uh are you done and you lost your money so there are multiple layers L2 that's important but the applications on those need to be verified as well. >> Uh I totally agree and actually this is something that we already are covering to some extent on a little bit like when you look into proposal and sequence of failure. This is exactly where we tell you what will happen like will you be able to move the chain forward if this happens. But I totally agree you also need to be looking at what where exactly are you locking your uh money in. is the protocol that you are locking your money in will allow you to to to withdraw the funds because it doesn't matter if the chain has like let's say even 30-day um exit window if the protocol that you you know locked your tokens have a you know half a year uh lock um implemented so yes I totally agree and actually I don't want to spoil too much but we are slowly starting to looking look into the particular assets and look into where those assets are locked on the chain that they are placed because this is I totally agree this is something that also needs to be taken into consideration and also needs to be monitored. >> Um one topic that Pavo you brought in like you know you did give this example of arbitum that you you know the they're EVM compatible but obviously you have to kind of build your infrastructure differently uh for that chain because like of some messaging changes etc. So >> don't get me wrong it's great it's a great chain. No, um it's it's not a banter about arbitrum, but it's it's a great example. So I I have a question both to you and to Marta because like you like both your projects are building infrastructure on different networks and different you know layer ones, layer 2s. So like how universal the existing infrastructure like oracles indexers are today that like if a new layer 2 comes in tomorrow if there's like new base new arbitum you know there's I don't know Robin Hood layer 2 or layer 1 whichever it's going to be uh you know goes goes big like how difficult it is today to uh universally apply this this infrastructure to to new networks or does it still require you know some tweaking some hacking you So uh in the way of like okay to give the support to this new chain I need to do XY Z. >> I can maybe start on this. Um we as an infrastructure provider um have indexing support for more than 300 different networks. Um most of it in Ethereum but also in Cosmos substrate based chains avalanche of course and and many more Solana as well. And I think in the EVM ecosystem in Ethereum it's not a big problem. I mean at least from the perspective of the ind indexing um the basic setup is quite universal and it will be really simple for a provider to bring uh support for new chain um for a provider like subquery. So and this is quite powerful because it allows us to move fast and uh collaborate with teams and support them from the day one and it's also important because the Ethereum space the developers in Ethereum are also developers who are building crosschain applications. So the the biggest amount of developers who are contributing to crosschain uh um repositories are building on Ethereum and this means that this is a ecosystem where there is a lot of crosschain use cases and I think it's important to have um infrastructure providers who can bring the support easily for new chains and so on. So it's it's quite easy for EVM. It's a different story for L1's. it's a different story to com to provide the same developer experience across incompatible ecosystems and this might be a challenge. Yeah. So for oracles it's amazingly easy. We can be on any chain that uh that uh a customer wants because if a chain is not used or there are no no customers for the oracles like why bother but uh we are on every significant air tool including base significant uh and uh it's super easy if it's EVM compatible or at least uh close enough uh because amazingly for oracles most of the parts that are uh that are um heavy like heavy lifting that we need to be doing are offchain like I was surprised that most of the work is offchain you have to get a proper the proper data source you have to calculate the value you have to make sure that there is consensus in the network and that you have all of the 13 validators out of 25 to to validate the same value or roughly the same value uh and uh like most of this work is offchain. So for oracles like we are uh any oracle is actually when done properly is actually multi-chain application from the start like from definition. >> Okay. Okay. Interesting. So uh I think this is going to be a spicy take. Uh do you think that at the infrastructure layer decentralization matters because we see a lot of infra players that are not decentralized even L2s like you know Coinbase is not it's not a decentralized network uh we have you know some L2s that are more or less decentralized same for infra players like you know you have plenty oracle projects that are not decentralized some are I think uh so yeah is is Does it really matter for for the infrastructure layer to be decentralized or it just needs to be efficient? >> Yeah. Um I think it absolutely does matter and one thing that sticks with me ever since listening to Vitalic talk at DevCon absolutely important for all L2s to survive a walk away test. So you know if you're properly decentralized if if the organization has gone in the morning chain survives and actually brings me back to that question that you mentioned uh would you move your pension fund into a chain like today would you move your mother's pension fund into a neo bank for example >> probably not maybe I did put significant amount of my own money to a neo bank but my p mother's pension >> and what stops you from putting it in in your mother's pension fund in there why is it still only kind of some of your me. >> It's a question to my mom actually, not me. >> Diversified portfolio. It's >> Yeah, I'd say it could be kind of, you know, I've always been use whatever, but I wouldn't cash a lot of my money in there because, you know, I'd rather have an institution that I can trust. So, isn't it just as important for a chain to have a decentralization mechanism that you can trust? So, that's that's definitely what I think and I think it's super important for us all to strive for that. Yeah, you can say many things about the European Union, but like having all of the legal frameworks for even neo bank to have to uh comply to is actually a good thing. Uh I wouldn't trust neo banks based in US because like it's the wild west there still. But uh yeah, even neo banks are fine uh when the legal framework is uh is properly built. And that's the same for L2s. if the uh network is built uh properly. Uh so as you said the walk away test uh works and if you like any L2 goes down and still you can get your funds that's that's the only chain you should be using. >> But but does it apply to a project like Chronicle as well? Like okay because layer 2 is of course it's it's also like a execution some sort of a settlement layer. Uh it makes sense. What about like >> what do you mean >> like should you be decentralized like should your infrastructure be fully decentralized so we can anyone can rely on your price feeds and like be sure that I don't know uh pavo from Oracle is not going to tamper it and it's not going to you know fix the the price of course like Oracle >> because you've got you know access to to the >> part of the infrastructure need to be completely decentralized and of course I'm biased obviously but like we are the only Oracle that is sufficiently uh decentralized because we have 25 validators that were operate in independently of us like we cannot tell them to do anything and they are getting like sourcing the data from different places uh and there are no other oracles that do that in a decentralized way uh as we do. So you know you've heard all the marketing about oracles being great but like this decentralizations matters to us uh greatly. Uh so we optimize the hair of the smart contracts for us to be able to be decentralized because like there's a lot of things that are connected. If you want a fast oracle, decentralization is super hard because getting consensus from 13 independent validators uh like takes time. So, but uh every time choosing an application, choosing an oracle, you have to take into account all of the risks that come with it. And uh if you want it to be super fast, you probably have to sacrifice some of the decentralization. If you want it to be a little bit slower but sufficiently decentralized then you you you can you can do that. But always do your homework about any application including oracles including L2s including L1's because I don't know who's using Solana like this is an overhyped chain and doesn't make sense. >> Let's let's not start this conversation. >> I would love to add to it. Um the centralization matters to to us at subquery as well and um it's not only the fact that this is the ethos of web 3. This is why we are here. It's uh it uh mitigates the risks. Uh it's it allows us to uh to build more secure applications and don't don't rely on single point of uh failure or but the the fact is that not only the layer ones, layer twos, they have to be decentralized but also applications like from bottom to the top everything should be decentralized or at least as much as it as it can be. But the thing is that there we are observing a growing tendency actually for projects building in web 3 on opting out from the uh decentralized services in favor of centralized RPCs for in for instance or centralized hosting of indexers. So looks like the efficiency or some maybe in-depth look into what's happening with the data some additional features but most importantly the efficiency the performance is more important than decentralization um and even affordability because for instance for for subquery we also have a decentralized network which is a marketplace for the app builders if they want to index their data they can uh publish a project and the globally distributed network of nodes node operators will going to index this data for them. So it's not as indexing, it's not no node operators. The level of entry is very low. It's very affordable, but the a little bit lower performance is a deal breaker for many projects in the space. So yeah, that's um something we're observing currently. All right, >> let me just also add from my perspective, decentralization of course matters, but it's not a silver bullet. It's not like the recipe that solves um all the hurdles and and you can just stamp the centralization or something and and call it a day because the question is like what is the centralization for and that's why we when we are looking in and assessing at assessing the uh for example uh we are not just looking we are not trying to say this is decentralized this is not decentralized we are looking okay what security guarantees are being provided to the users and in what ways uh sometimes it is achieved by like very fully decentralized uh ecosystem um underneath. Sometimes it's achieved via other mechanisms uh that allow you to you know step in in case you need to step in or that allow you to uh use some you know some some other mechanism if somebody is trying to censor you. So of course like to keep it short of course decentralization should matters it's usually it's the best tool for resil resilience to for for sustainability uh des to decentralize those systems means that you know there are no no single points of failure for example or no bottlenecks. So these are important uh important factors but it has to be it has to be looked at uh thoughtfully and we always when looking at decentralization we need to ask why and how. >> Okay thank you. Um okay let's move the topic a little bit more into dev tooling and general dev experience. Evan would like to start with you because obviously Bass is uh doing a lot of kind of kits kind of um tooling for developers. Do we have enough building blocks you know so so uh dev can come and just okay I want to use this for embedded wallets I want to uh use that for uh for I don't know pass key signing etc. So is it is it easy enough so a non-web3 dev can come and build an app that is built on uh onchain rails or do they still need to learn their part of of you know the the um onchain coding you know solidity etc to to be able to uh build a mainstream app. So once again going back to this survey boot camp like these people are web two mainly um coming on building apps and I it's amazing to see what they've just done with onchain kit that we have they're just taking components and APIs from Coinbase developer platform and they're up and running with a wallet connect transaction buttons everything that they need to get started um on the user side of it then what have we done in in that side it's like how do we actually face the consumers so we have the base uh smart wallet or base account it's called now with your your your you know logging in with your face ID or your smart or your pass key on your device and that's a big level up for user and less user friction user onboarding and less user friction. So I would say yes we're we're there for anyone to get up and running. I mean even if you have no dev knowledge now you can fill away with replet or whatever uh and you can really get up and running quite quickly. However, what differentiates you from you know the rest of the mainstream apps that's going to take more work. How do you use those tools to create a new innovative app that people want to use? Um, and then what we have now just launched was a base app. That's our distribution channel for any apps on base and we're doing that through mini apps. So we have a mini kit thing as well. So we'll be probably looking more into that for the hackathon looking at mini apps. Um, and really excited to see what people build in general. We're seeing like huge distribution through the base app. Mini apps are instantly accessible. Think like you know what who who might use Farmville on Facebook? No one. Well, me. >> Yeah. So, like there, you know, being able to access apps in a in a very easy manner has been, you know, a big level up. Obviously, you know, continuing on from Chris, like, okay, we went from web apps to mobile apps, but now within the app itself, mini apps, I think, is a is a good distribution channel. But, um, in general, yeah, we have loads of, uh, tooling. We're always building new dev tooling. like we've got the platform, you know, super fast transaction, super low fees, dev tooling then for anyone to to come and deploy on on base and then access to the distribution that we offer through base app and and other uh uh products that we have and especially of course the the Coinbase on uh rails onramp and off-ramp. Um so that's kind of how our flywheel works. We want a million builders building apps for a billion users u with a trillion dollars assets on platform. So that's how we're we're we're getting there. So, can we make the crypto UX invisible already or is it still going to leak somewhere like you know those uh and it's an open question. >> Yeah, like I'm seeing like today there's lots of apps that are using uh currently uh that have abstracted away like they've taken the C of the USDC in their app. You know, they're they're they're abstracting away their wallets, their smart wallets now. People are able to just create wallets instantly. Um so yeah, I think we're we're really moving in the right direction with abstraction. And then if we're to onboard, you know, our existing web to applications that are all around the world today, it's that abstraction away from crypto that they want. Um, you know, adding wallet connect buttons and all these kind of things is not necessarily what they want to add to their users um on boarding experience just yet. So making that super easy um through smart accounts uh will be really important as well. Also, let me add to this uh like I think we've seen recently with the with the Zalinski's uh suit on poly market drama that we already made the technology behind the scenes uh trans you know invisible for many years because many people betting on that particular betino it's still we're still going around the same kind of circles >> but but they were not they were not aware how exactly are those you know are those deals and those bets settled. So we we kind of achieved this goal already. >> I I I agree like poly market, you know, especially around the US election was like a lot of non-crypto people were using it and had no idea what's uh uh what's in the back end. Uh which is a great example as you said. Um >> it worked >> and it worked. I mean it still works. It's still casino. It's still betting but right you know >> it just got approval in US. >> Yeah. Yeah. I know. I mean, you know, we could have a completely different panel on like, you know, like majority of crypto is just, you know, another level of casinos, you know, memecoins, uh, betting, you know, uh, >> scam, >> but yeah. Um, that's not the topic. So, >> about tooling, I want to say like there's a lot of tooling for, uh, front- end applications. There's less tooling for back end. And if you're talking infrastructure, it's mostly back end. uh it's mostly the things that people do not see. So uh like what I am personally missing is tooling from the from the L2s tooling for for the back end for uh interacting with the chains uh behind the scenes because when institutions go into uh into crypto and they are doing that like they're not going to be interested in using someone else's uh designs someone else's application logic uh on the front end. they'll be interested in building their own and of course this will be the centralized part but there's no way around it they will the institutions will be centralized but uh they need tooling to be able to connect to the chains uh operate on the chains and do everything seamlessly uh like we we have to do it ourselves for for uh oracles and like I'm a backend developer this is fun for me but uh I don't think it's fun for everyone >> if I can add to this because like I I've been saving the grants several grants councils in past and something they show is that one very important support for builders that is needed and is uh too often overlooked is the non-technical support because like what we were trying to figure out okay we had let's say 50 applications every three months that we approved grants for for builders we are in the builders grants council so we were approving applications for 50 builders every three months but how can we help them succeed how can we help them, you know, go to another level. How can we help them to to, you know, reach their audience and and find their audience? And I think that this like like this is a there is still still a huge gap where we can and a lot of lowhanging fruits where we can really help and and uh alleviate this whole space uh you know very much and and actually again I I have to praise uh B and Jesse Pollock like I think that there I I know of many builders that came to Bass simply because they were hoping that one day Jesse will use their app and will shout out on Twitter that they that he used this app. like this is underappreciated tool that really really helps builders and we need more of that. >> Interesting. I like that you guys front on my my last question without knowing it. Um because it seems like we have a general consensus like if we're not there yet, we're like super close to being ready for you know the app layer and and and the the groundbreaking applications. Um but if we want to onboard you know the the famous billion users uh on chain is there anything missing? You answered the question. Uh thank you. Uh but yeah is there anything else missing? Is there anything that you know need to click so we can kind of you know move uh past this vantage point and um and onboard billion users or are we just missing this this one super app that will that will do it? I think education uh and like basic financial education for people to be able to use those applications safely but for people to be actually using them at all because right now the financial system works uh very seamlessly you just pay and there's nothing to it. Uh if you if someone wants only that like there's no not really a big uh use for crypto for them. But uh if they want to do some more advanced stuff uh they can go and use uh the trady or defy and defi is way better 247 uh decentralized mostly and uh like this is what they need to be educated on financial education and then how to use uh different toolings like different products financial products and how to use them on chain. I think education is important but I also have to admit that um in general also in web three is the same principle valid like in web two don't make me think things should be easy and and friendly and user friendly to use so I think we still need maybe a few super apps like with network effect that everybody will be using uh your mom your your your grandmother your neighbor maybe completely abstracted from the web-f free culture or the the blockchain feeling. But yeah, that's that's what like education is important, but we also have to make it easier for users. >> Yeah, I think what we've really been driving in on is trying to crack the social. Um, you know, we're all using social media today. Maybe some of you have deleted your apps, whatever, but in BASAP now, we've integrated the Farcaster uh feed. So like that's been a big way for us like people are now onboarding their their mothers, their fathers to you know posting and then co coining their content using Zora things like this that actually make it you know very easy for people to understand okay I'm creating content I own my content I can earn from my content instead of centralized entities uh earning on your behalf. So, I think that's a big one that we're trying to crack at the moment is how do we get people just casually using day-to-day in their scrolling uh uh day-to-days using social um because that's how we'll we'll get the distribution amongst everyone and then the crypto part of it is just playing in the back end. I I used to have this take that the the app that's going to onboard billion users is not going to be built by web3 startup that it's going to be someone from the outside coming in building this you know amazing app great UX they'll just use the onchain rails >> we need new ideas >> and uh and like none of the existing web3 companies is is going to do it but we'll see if that >> I I kind of agree and like my take is that the only thing that we need is time uh as in my opinion like this change is already inevitable like it already happened like in Bulkahov the milk is already spilled and now we just will observe the you know the world changing uh it's an exciting you know exciting times ahead of us and you know uh we can bet on who will actually build this uh new app that will onboard a billion users but I think that it's already done like we it it's never we are never going back already so yeah we just need time >> yeah but we need protection uh um against overregulation because like when you have a river it goes where it goes or the milk spilled it goes where it goes but you can try to steer it in a in a place that is going to end up like trash. I absolutely agree and that's why also like we need time but we it can take more time or less time like the recent changes in US administration like shortened this gap and like made us wait less time but it can also go the other way around and that's also why I'm so frustrated with like circle and stripe doing with their own L1 because like I believe that inevitably they will go back to >> but it will make more time sell to BL2 so the arrest will too. They will see the light. >> Exactly. >> Yeah, of course. Cool. Um, so that's it for the main part. We have five minutes remaining for some questions if there are any from the audience. If there aren't, then I have a bonus question then. Uh, so what about AI? Is the onchain infrastructure ready for autonomous agents to interact uh with with the technology? Like my take on this is you know basically blockchain is the only way for AI agents to join the economy that that we are all part of uh because it's program programmatic and you know they can actually interact it interact with it. So do you think like the the there is enough infrastructure or are we just kind of you know um touch the base on it and and and like we're still we still uh need a lot more um innovation here. >> Yeah, I like your questions. It's always are we there or not? You know, maybe we're somewhere in that that that that level. Um but yeah, look, I mean we've been doing that as well with agent kit and X42. Um, we're trying to make it really easy for people to build and deploy agents. Um, on the user side, that's another aspect I didn't really mention, but in the base app now, we have agents hanging out there. So, on the front front page, you can click on bankerbot or uh on it a prediction market. You don't have to even understand how to use an app. You just talk to the agent. It gives you a good understanding of what's happening and does the uh transaction for you. So, on that side, I think it's been really suess successful and we are we are there. Um but yeah, once again getting that distribution to the users so that they can access them. You know, that's what we're trying to do with the base app with the social fee people are using. Okay, I want to do some some more onchain. Okay, well here's an agent that can help you do it. Um so yeah, it's absolutely a very very important use case for crypto and onchain tech. Um but we're getting there. >> Yeah, >> Lucish. >> Yeah, but the question is, you know, is the infrared uh not the distribution, not the users like my my my the My kind of you know question comes like are we ready for you know the super apps the the builders like can tomorrow uh a completely non non-crypto dev come with a great idea to build you know an onchain app and they have all the building blocks to to do this they can easily do this without you know spending hours or weeks or months learning you know the new programming language. Um, but it seems like the the conclusion here is like we are almost there. Like we're very close and we just need those amazing app builders and the distribution market. >> The the LLM's help with the documentation. The agents can do stuff for you. So we are like I think we are actually there for uh AI like both agents and artificial intelligence LLMs help people uh on board but uh AI will not do your job for you. >> Uh yeah I I will add to it. Yes I think we are we are here um and I think blockchain is actually a perfect industry for a application. The data will only grow. The complexity is here and if we want to bring more developers into the space, AI agents are the way to to do it or a AI tools to help um developers uh build in web 3. Um two latest examples from sub subquery. We've built MPC and to to allow copilot corser and other programs to co to easily understand subquery projects. essentially with no knowledge about the indexing and subquery project you are able to uh build up your indexer in a couple of minutes really just uh being a master of prompts right because that's another skill we all have to develop and another thing is that we've built a graphql agent to actually for existing indexing project to query the data in the database with natural language and with limited understanding of the data structure. So there are tools and this is just the beginning and I think we'll see more and more in AI space um especially in infrastructure. Yeah. >> So I will say something different like in my opinion we are not there yet but it's not our fault it's AI's fault like AI like on the AI front developers are lagging and AI simply in my opinion doesn't understand yet the uh what we have here. they are trying to fit crypto into their understanding of the of of the world that is based on the you know knowledge that they they've built based on traditional rails. So they don't still like the AI still doesn't grasp the difference and doesn't grasp the opportunities that are in this uh space. You know this will this will change um sooner or later but that's in my opinion why we are not there yet. But it's not our fault it's their fault. Nice. >> Right. Thank you very much. We're just on time. So, uh, thank you very much for those grace panelists. Uh, I hope you guys enjoyed the panel and I'll see you around. >> Yeah. Thank you, Lucas.