# Aligning interests - Nikola Vukovic | DeFi Saver

- Channel: [ETH Belgrade Community](https://streameth.org/eth-belgrade-community)
- Date: 2025-10-07
- Duration: 22:55
- Topics: People & Blogs
- Watch: https://streameth.org/watch/yt-8RrBr1oHz4c
- YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RrBr1oHz4c

## Description

Aligning interests - Nikola Vukovic | DeFi Saver

## Transcript

Hi guys, good morning. [Applause] >> Yeah, welcome to Big Brog Great. Um, my name is Nicola. Um, I'm a part of the product team for for Defi Saver and as well as the CEO of the the parent company. First off, I have to state the obvious. I'm sorry in advance for my voice. Um, it's allergy season for me. So, I hope I'll make it till the end. And yeah, uh, fingers crossed, I guess. So, that's why this is tea. Yeah. So, uh, before we kick it off with the the main crypto web 3 stuff, uh, I wanted to talk about like the wider picture, a bit of history, a bit of history about the internet like before we actually got to the the crypto part. And, um, there was this brief period in in the history of internet. It was like roughly maybe up to 2015 where the internet like um it it grossed a a significant number of of users. Uh but it uh yeah I have the old slides here so that's not great. Um so there was this brief period in history where the internet kind of amassed this critical number of users. Um but it we still haven't figured out how to monetize it fully. We haven't still developed the monetization tactics of uh the businesses. So it was uh it was this brief period where we kind of focused on um simple products that kind of offered value that did like one thing well. uh you know you had like these simple products like uh you know medium the the blogging platform launched and it was just like this distraction-free uh blogging platform for writing for sharing ideas for reading. It was very straightforward and very simple to use. It was um a great it was a great product to use. You know you had like um Unsplash, maybe some of you used Unsplash for like stock photos. It was the idea of Unsplash was to offer free uh stock photos that uh photographers just wanted to to share because they didn't want to actually sell their work. Um you know, you had all these like creative hubs like um Tumblr or or these artistic hubs or even Reddit. You know, Reddit was wasn't small, but um it it it had like a a large number of users, but it was still pretty niche. It was like this this place where, you know, certain types of people went to kind of discuss their their niche interests um in in their small little communities. You know, there was this fun little website. It was called eight tracks. Um it it was just a website where people shared playlists. It was uh that that's all that that's all that it was. It was uh these fun little playlists. They were like centered around a team like maybe a a specific moment. uh maybe a a fandom, maybe a TV show or like a very specific location, you know, like like a Lisbon coffee shop or something. It was like it was fun and it was like community based and um you know over time obviously well most of these weren't great businesses you know most of these didn't even have revenue models and they had to pivot some of them uh pivoted you know they had ads but they weren't really sustainable as a business uh they had to pivot towards uh more they had to actually get to the monetization phase you know uh Unsplash and Medium they were basically free to use. Um the idea was to garner enough uh amass enough users so that you know once they reach critical mass they can kind of monetize them uh fully. Um that's kind of what happened. You know medium is is kind of subscription only AI based content platform that kind of stop prioritizing quality. Unsplash is now basically it's owned by Kerry Images which is like a a stock photo selling uh corporation essentially. Um you know some of them pivoted successfully. Reddit famous you know kind of just flipped the money-making switch and then pivoted to this like closed source uh model where they sold all the user data to Microsoft etc etc. And like they made a ton of money. They did an IPO. Um, Hrax for example just died because there wasn't a great way to monetize it at the time or they just didn't they just kind of failed. But like the key thing for all these, you know, lovely products that we had in, you know, this brief period of maybe between 2010 and 2015 roughly was that they weren't in the money-making phase yet. Uh, they weren't yet optimizing for the for the revenue. And uh social apps are for example this um uh very good example uh of of this kind of evolution. You know if you used Instagram for example in 2012 for uh in this period you know before the acquisition there was it was same as the other ones. There was this app that did like one very simple thing very well. It's the Unix philosophy you know do one thing very well. Um it was sharing photos obviously it was very simple. It was actually a great um user experience. It was fun to use, you know. Uh it was back then when UX was like a new term and you people were talking about user experience. Instagram was celebrated for like this little tweak that they did where when they like they would upload the photo in the background while you edited the caption. You know, you probably heard of this and and then then it seemed like the up the photo was uploaded very quickly and you know, you were like, "Wow, this is so slick and smooth." Uh so you know Instagram was really focusing on like the quality of that one thing that they did uh they tried to do this one thing very well and you know when when Facebook uh acquired uh Instagram which had no revenue model at the time like Facebook already knew the game because they um they were kind of uh an era earlier than than Instagram you know they were already very deep in the mon monetization phase so that I kind of knew how to how to make money from this model from this social model which um uh when Facebook was kind of you know Facebook was showing ads uh and uh obviously we're trying to scale that basically make more money off of it and essentially that runs down to showing more ads and they looked at how people were using their app um they realized well okay people would just you know check the app see what their friends were up to see that they're kind of up to date there's nothing new so I'll just going to I'll just close the app and they realized that like the social interaction in these social apps was actually the b bottleneck for their um profit and they just realized okay we'll just show more content doesn't matter that the user didn't really subscribe to it or they're not like following these you know pages or or or whatever there let's just show more content because we can show more ads like that and that's how this algor algorithmic feed was born that's how you know we moved to social apps being actually content consumption apps And that's why, you know, essentially our 13 year olds have Andrew Tate on their, you know, homepage feed. Um, there's one very important key thing to understand here, like essentially if you look at the the Instagram business model, what is good for Instagram is bad for their users. So what brings Instagram more money makes their product shittier, makes their their users more anxious, agitated, you know, addicted to scrolling. And you probably already know this, but like uh and I'm stating the obvious, but it's very important to understand this is like this key figure of um essentially um this mismatch between the needs of the product, the interests of the the business and um the needs of the user on the other side. Uh the pro the needs of the product obviously being that you know the product needs to make money and survive and turn a profit and the needs of the user being uh you know they have this um they have a thing they need or want and they have a product they want to buy or entertainment or or whatnot. It's this is like because these needs are often conflicted. It's like a constant struggle of of balance between the two. Um which is fine in in this ideal use case where this balance is is matched. Um because this is this is this the use case where this is the the case where capitalism technically works in the sense that uh you know you have market pressure on one side and you have the pressure of the user's needs on the other side and they're kind of evenly matched. So you know the market corrects itself and you know you get what you need you pay for you pay as much as you need to for it and it kind of works in this this very specific edge case which you know capitalism kind of wants you to to believe and strive for. Obviously, issues arise when one of these sides has leverage over the other. When the sides aren't balanced when um uh this is like the the the obvious example when you you know have like one shop in town, you kind of have to go to that one shop and you have to buy products from that one shop no matter the price or the quality because you have no other choice. So you know there's there's this constant struggle to to create this leverage between product and user and um it's kind of always been this way because these these interests are kind of opposed um in the sense of that you know you businesses always try to gain leverage over the user uh whether it's through you know fairly not sinister means like you know advertising or something more grand or illegal like you know global monopolies and and whatnot. So what happened? Um well it wasn't so bad but like what happened as capitalism matured these the companies kind of learned and we as a species you know learn to scale these companies to like this global level you know that's why you know if you're wearing shoes you might be wearing you know Nikes or Adidas or Rebox or whatever and the quality will probably be the same you know you can't really buy super high quality shoes for like super cheap um in like the average case because you know All of these companies are so big and they're like so they're not colluding per se, but they're kind of optimizing for the same thing and you know they're kind of um they have this this leverage of globalization over you. And what happened with digital and like the internet and you know the past 10 to 20 years is um digital kind of pushed these companies well allowed them to push this f leverage even further because now you have um you can have this global monopoly much more quickly much more cheaply because you can basically overnight scale to a global level because you know if we look at the internet you know there's there's a few very good um examples like you know we basically have two phone manufactur manufacturers. We have like you know basically one web browser, one and a half um we have one search engine, we have uh you know one company that owns basically all the social apps etc etc. Like you know we have one search engine and that's kind of been our primary interaction point with the internet for a while. Um, and what happens with that search engine, it obviously makes money if you're using it, if you're using it um, more, it's going to make more money in the sense that, you know, if you have to if you type something into search for something, if you have to refine your search two times, so if you don't find what you're looking for the first time, you have to type it in again or like change it up to to find what you're actually looking for, they're going to make three times the money. So, you know, if their product is shittier, if their product is worse, they're going to make more money. And that's that's the the fundamental issue with this this business model. And like the competition in this case is so far off. There is zero market pressure. And I'm sure I'm kind of stating the obvious for for a lot of you here because uh you know, yeah, obviously we have monopolies. It's not great. But like I thought this was obvious to to everyone and you know, it's probably obvious to us because we're working in digital and you know, we've kind of lived through it. But I was talking to my sister a month ago and she's actually the that's the conversation that kind of inspired the the inception of this talk. Um they don't really know uh my sister's like six years younger than me. So it's like the critical difference of um not seeing the previous state of the internet you know not seeing this this nice little good time where we you know didn't yet have uh super hyper monetization at you know she was born in this algorithm first you know feed default content consumption model she was uh she doesn't know that you know Reddit had like an open API they had like dozen of apps on Android and dozen of apps on on on iOS and you know they they didn't have this firm grip on their users. Uh she she doesn't she doesn't really understand on the technical side that you know Reddit doesn't really need an app to show you the comments. You know, Tik Tok doesn't really need you to create an account uh to to to see the video that somebody sent you. You know, they just have enough cultural leverage over you uh to coers you into making this account. We when we started using the internet uh we kind of used it actively you know proactively in the sense that if you were using the internet you kind of opened your browser and you type something in whether it was a URL or a Google search but you kind of had to type something in um to go do something and that was our default and we kind of mostly still do this and the way they use the internet is much more passive you know they're born this feed first you know um ecosystem that kind of delivers content to you, your serves content. That's why, you know, 13 year olds get like random content that they're not really supposed to see. And we have these business models kind of preying upon that. And that's kind of what shaped their their um understanding of technology and the internet. And you know, frankly, it's not really looking up in the sense that we have all these global monopolies in in digital and both in physical and then then capitalism has really matured and we've really optimized how we um build monopolies and and whatnot and like capture user data and user attention etc. Um and it's really not looking up in the sense that these all most of these products have their the interests of the product the business and like uh the user completely opposed and the more they they scale the more they um build their their their product and their business the worse it is for the end user. Um these products are just fundamentally broken. the business models are just fundamentally broken in that sense. And um you know building digital products in 2025 kind of sucks and you know it kind of really takes this small piece of your soul if you you know reach a certain level and it's really a pain to to kind of build. Um and yet you know we're here we're building digital products and we're here on like an an a niche Ethereum conference you know niche technology in Belgrade and you know why are we why are we actually why are we actually here you know why haven't we just gone to the next buzzword and uh you know just you know went somewhere to to make the make more money you know maybe we're here because we kind of still naively believe we can make a tiny bit of a difference. You know, maybe we're in this room and in the city and, you know, in web 3 and Ethereum and and and crypto because we still feel like there might be a sliver of that promised internet left. You know, maybe there maybe we can still make something that kind of resembles that. Um maybe we believe this, you know, initial promise of decentralization of web 3, of Ethereum that it was going to be this infrastructure that gave us the the tools to kind of make our products uh more aligned with our users, you know, to to to kind of slightly make a little bit of difference. And you've if you've been here for a while, you know, maybe you've been in the space for five years or more, you know, maybe you try to make something that's, you know, decentralized and nobody really used it and then, you know, you pivoted to a pump fun type of project or, you know, like a a MySQL based uh project and people actually use this and like well why the am I, you know, building something decentralized if people don't really care because, you know, maybe decentralization and and uh openness, transparency, security, privacy, all of these things. Maybe they're not like the end goal in on them on their own. Maybe they're not not enough. Maybe they're not like a the the one thing the user are actually looking for. Maybe they're um because the users aren't actually looking for like, you know, decentralized products. They're looking for products that are actually aligned with their interests. uh people and products and teams building them that actually care for them and actually want to make something that, you know, helps them and makes their uh day better or makes them more secure, makes something doing something that they're trying to do easier. Um maybe all of these things, you know, decentralization, security, privacy, transparency, openness, you know, all of the these things that we have the tools for now are actually just the way to get there, you know, the way to keep ourselves accountable and keep ourselves on the right track on on the right path, which kind of um helps us build something the the that's fundamentally aligned in in the core of the business with the user. users. You know, maybe that's actually the the way to get there. Um, I really like when people ask us how we make money at DeFi server because uh, you know, the the answer is this neat, you know, like well, we make uh, we take a fee where we provide some additional value and, you know, we otherwise, you know, if we're not providing value, we're not making any money. So, we're not making a profit. So like it it sounds very good but I I think it's in in the core the way DeFi has been set up the way DeFi is you know this open ecosystem and you know there are people trying to make it more closed and you know create world gardens and and closed ecosystems but generally DeFi is still kind of open and composable and and people still have a choice and they can kind of um there is market pressure essentially um there's no correation yet um but the way DeFi has been set up right Now uh we kind of have to prioritize value first. We have to keep ourselves accountable in that way. the the transparency and the openness and the centralization of D5 which is inherent they kind of kept us uh focused on on the value that we're providing through D5 server and then kind of helped us um focus on the value you know focused on creating this kind of more uh balanced and fair uh sustainable business model and we have this opportunity with you know blockchain and in in this kind of moment where there's this new generation coming that hasn't seen this this promise that we've we've been promised. You know, they they don't even know it could exist and we kind of have this opportunity to show it to them to, you know, maybe show them a sliver of it and kind of build a part of it. Um this promised internet, you know, this um better default, you know, to set the bar just a little bit more higher. Um kind of show them how it could have been. um if we don't align our products with with the user actually if we we because now we kind of have the tools we have the the the all all these you know all this infrastructure and the tools to to build these products in a sustainable way from the ground up whether it's uh blockchain or tokconomics or game theory or you know decentralized ownership and then then all these ledgers and and all of these things. Uh if we don't use them, our products are doomed to be, you know, fundamentally broken in this way in through this kind of divide of of misaligned interests. And you know, I'm hoping that we can use these tools to kind of realign them to kind of think from the ground up, you know, because it doesn't necessarily have to be about uh scaling to to to infinity. It doesn't have to be about being the the biggest product and the biggest platform and you know maximizing profits until infinity. It doesn't have to be optimized for infinite growth. I think we can just optimize for a a more balanced, a more fair, a more sustainable model. You know, I think we can just optimize for maybe making the the users the person's day 1% better in in any way through our products. And you know, I think this is a humble goal and I think this is a nice goal to have. Um, ladies and gentlemen, thank you for listening. Um, welcome to welcome to Belgrade. Thank you. Welcome to Belgrade. Um, welcome to my home. I'm beyond grateful to be one of your hosts today and uh I hope you'll have a nice time. I hope you'll visit Belgrade again and you know I'll see you out there. Um, once again, thank you so much for your attention and I'll see you