# ETHKyiv hackathon Day 2

- Channel: [Kyiv Ethereum](https://streameth.org/kyiv-ethereum)
- Date: 2024-10-25
- Duration: 7:45:51
- Watch: https://streameth.org/watch/yt-BCGj5-VtzhU
- YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCGj5-VtzhU

## Transcript

he [Music] let [Music] oh [Music] oh good morning everyone please proceed to the lecture hall we will start soon oh good morning everyone please proceed to the lecture hall we will start soon in for e e speak [Music] so good morning everyone uh we are happy to see you all all again today thank you for being with us and um organizational Q&A uh lecture hold uh for the workshops changed its location and now it is based on the fourest floor so if you want to visit one of the workshop you have to go upstairs and uh we also have hacker spaces around location I think you all see them yesterday uh they are marked with the uh space um marks if there is an air rate alert on you can follow to the shelter it is based on the first floor please don't ignore because your safety is in your hands and um let me introduce you to our first Speaker who is joining us offline uh give a warm welcome to dimitro project manager at ideas soft and he will share his experience of building processes and web [Applause] tree so hi everyone uh let me first check how it works awesome so hi once again uh my name ISRO s and I'm the project manager at ideas soft um let me first introduce myself and my company uh so uh I've been working with uh blockchain on blockchain domain for uh over last 3 years uh my company is like uh typical uh full cycle development company so we can handle everything like our clients want it can start from like some CI defi D apps and uh go on I don't know even to the whole blockchain or to it so uh everything our clients want uh our achievements is that uh our company is a co-founder of orderly Network and Global lger also uh we are co-owner of Game Dev companies that call 7er maybe someone knows uh so oh sorry I missed slide about our our company uh so uh my topic today is the leadership u in web three projects uh from idea to successful delivery uh but uh more specifically uh I want to talk to you about um not maybe some tips um not uh I don't know not about the lessons how to uh launch a successful project because I strongly believe that there is no some unique I don't know methodology or way to launch the specific project um my aim goal today is not to teach you but maybe to remind you about some uh some things that uh everyone everyone here can know but may forget from time to time uh so let's start this first step is uh understanding of web web free leadership so uh here we have two important things first we should uh Define what is the leadership in web free uh uh leadership in web free uh project is distin from web through projects because um uh the leadership in free project can be decentralized so we free projects can like be drived by da or like other forms of community uh when like web through projects can be driven just for like typical aoral system so uh key aspects of three uh leadership uh include Vision motivation and risk management and key leadership qualities is a technical expertise and soft skills from my uh Ino like the technical experties in the free project is the key qualy for the leader of the project or project manager so it doesn't matter because only uh only person who has a strong expertise in blockchain uh can like identify all the uh bottle necks that a team can face uh all the problematic places and Etc uh next next thing is the uh our next step is the identifying of idea identifying and and uh building of concept so first uh we should like Identify some problems that our uh project our idea can help uh moreover it would be uh great if uh this problem can be I don't know addressed by by the blockchain the second our step should be like should be market research um it's pretty important to conduct uh through market research and compet competitors analys to uh uh to understand the landscape and uh identify a unique value of your idea also one more important thing here is the team building so you should be you should be sure that uh your team have enough um technical expertise and uh that your team like um really involved into your idea and it would be a big plus if your team uh has a creative thinking and planning don't forget about the planning because inho is also one of the uh key steps on your way to successful delivery of the project also nowadays it's uh it is really necessary not to ignore Reg battery compliance because you know that the regulation becomes uh I don't know harder and harder from day to day uh our next step is goal defining so the the steps also as all the steps that I will like discuss with you today the steps uh this step is also pretty important because first of all you should identify an let's call it I don't know edl MVP so you know you can like spend a lot of time to plan edl project but I think that there is no make any sense to build some edal project for two years and in two years your uh your project can like I don't know become as useless because Market uh is changed uh everything is changed like the trend is Chang so uh on this step it also uh pretty important to uh build uh pretty you know uh useful MVPs that can like um give uh users an opportunity to at least to like uh to meet your project on the market uh here I want to really highlight uh one point is the importance of time to Mark Ino it's pretty important development so as far as uh this event is the hakon I don't see any reason to like teach you how to build the project because most we here we have a developers but I want to highlight key points is the transparency communication with the team so you should have trust you shouldn't forget about problem solving with your team engaging the team on problem solving uh I don't know that's the point when you can get the best ideas uh for your project best ideas for improvements best ideas from problem solving of course like uh you can spend some time like to find to find some decision but like you know one head is good two head is team uh so about the trust you shouldn't hide the problems and uh you should like share sh the problems with the team you sh you should share your opinion maybe your even feelings because your team is your Cas supporter so please build transparent communication is your team uh launch and marketing so uh you know you uh your product can be uh really I don't know really useful can Clause a lot of problem on the market but this such product will not have I don't know any price any sense if no one knows about it so you should uh build a strong uh marketing strategy uh and also it's really great if you have uh some person in your team that can help you to build the community because uh okay you can get some like I don't know followers in X some followers in LinkedIn but it's much better when you have the team uh some people community instead of your team who deeply involved in your project uh who want to support your project uh who ready to I don't know scale your project at uh and uh Etc so every all the successful project uh have their own communities so uh I spent over two weeks to like uh find some successful cases to share you with and honestly it was uh pretty hard to like you know to highlight uh some of key projects on uh uh ethereum Community or like on EVMS or something else why I picked ethereum and unop they are most popular this the first reason everyone knows about them uh the second reason uh both of them have like um uh uh the same factors of their success Innovation Community adaptability uh like I am not sure that I have to uh like you know to explain all of these components uh in case of ethereum because like here is the community of aium we have a lot of we have really big Community all around the all social medias it can be redit it can be telegram chats forums meetups conferences and Etc the same with the Unis swap uh adaptability uh I I'm not sure that for example eere like following the trends I think that the ethereum found ethereum and the ethereum foundation is the team they're building Trends uh the same with the Unis swap like uh their open source protocol still using with a lot of uh new startups that trying to build something new on the market but they like best still uh and the the last point that I want to discuss with you is the challenges and responses so all the above I would like to add one more more uh key uh tip as I said on the start uh there is no unique strategy to launch a successful project because uh you know the the projects the teams they're like a human so as we can like change our otherwise our mod and Etc the project and uh can uh change his requirements his viite move and Etc the market can be changed by Trends and Etc so like the development of successful project is the it's about Dynamics not about the static as a life every project every team is like little life uh and in case of challenges challenges and responses there is no unique way to solve them but I think that we should remember that um problem become as a problem when we like not ready to solve it when we don't have any plan when we like uh I don't know uh didn't predict that we can have such problems before that is just a part of process problems are normal responses are normal as I said uh few slides ago you should share it with your team you should share your thoughts you should build transparent Communications and everything will be fine so uh uh I think that's all from my side uh I'm ready to answer your your questions if you have and I really hope that my speech was useful or at least interesting for you today thank you please raise your hand if you have any questions hey dimma thanks for the speech it was really interesting what I want to ask is actually mostly referring to your a experience as a project manager so my question here is when you're willing to launch the successful product but you still have a pretty big road map and you want to have a couple of teams that are working simultaneously what would be what would be the best approach not to mess up everything if there are a lot of interdependences between them uh thank you for the question uh it is a nice question so uh first of all I think that um we or you I don't know should uh build the processes so like if you have a like clarified and transparent processes in your team I think that you will not have mess in any case even if everything like go wrong if you have a processes you will handle everything and uh as I mentioned in uh my presentation uh transparent communication with the team so like uh MTH uh MTH is um MTH becomes after someone losing this uh the the idea of the project uh once someone uh stop understands what they are doing on the project what is the goal what is the mission so uh processes and transparent communication maybe more questions I think no thank you thank you so our next speaker is getting up on the stage it is Maria people lead at cow and she will tell us about cow grants and solber competition and now can you hear me well good morning everyone what if I tell you that you that you can start contributing to cow very soon if not today hi everyone my name is Maria and I'm a core contributor of c da organization where I oversee people operations and recruitment today I'm more than glad to provide you with more information about cow grants and solver competition in more details let's start what is our on our agenda today I will introduce you to ca if you are not familiar yet and also I will tell you more information how you can contribute yourself and become our contributor I also will guide you through the solver competition and how can you become a solver yourself the the aim of this session is to provide you with more information about uh the topics I mentioned here and also we to motivate you to become your o like your contributor and uh as I said ideally uh start contributor contributing as a solver so maybe I'll stay here so you can see the slides okay so what cada is CA is an OP organization of developers market makers and contributor with uh providing the best and userfriendly and user protective products for the users there are couple of products which you see here on the on the slide so the main product is C protocol which is a leading trading intent based trading protocol and M protected with the famous cow swap uh UI on on top of it and uh the second one is M blocker so if you're not using cow protocol and you're not protected from am you can use am blocker uh which is a leading am protection on ethereum and the third product is C amm which has been launched this year in February it's the first M capturing amm deployed on ethereum contributing to cow Dow grants let's talk more so the purpose of Cal grants is that we want to to grow the community we want to design and support the projects and initiatives that aligns with the daos mission and contribute to the ecosystem growth and Innovation but it's not only about the growth it's much more and the cow grants launched in June 2022 um it's uh 2 years more than two years already and you can find more details about the mission and about the allocated funds through formal caps which is Cap 8 and capap 18s and in the end of this talk I will uh share you with you all the links which are important and which were mentioned in this presentation so you can have a closer look to that and dive into that and also ask any questions if you want uh to the community the uh as I mentioned the primary areas of grow outline in cap 18 and let's dive more in details what exactly it means so the first one is cow community grows cow Community we want to grow the amount of users we want to grow the amount of contributors we want to grow the amount of uh many other things which are you know part of Da and the way how we can do it is through partnership the other way is through events through the education uh platform through the like educating the users and so on and hopefully it will lead to the mass adoption which I believe you all are waiting for right the second one is ux and UI contributing and improving the uux and UI is a key point so this is really important for the users to understand um to use the platform in the simple possible way and here um we we talk about the Simplicity but not about the you know the product itself but about the user experience which is really important even those users which are not familiar that much with the web stream space they can um use the platform because it's easy and uh simple to navigate the second one the third one is is decentralization so uh it's key point of web stre right so you want to make uh the space more decentralized we want to actually keep it decentralized right so we don't we don't want to centralize that that's why there are more and more things you want to invest to contribute to keep the space that decentralized and that's also actually a point of Grants right because we want to involve more contributors who can um participate in the community growth and the fourth one is developing new solvers that's what actually I will be talking more details today and we'll have a chance to chat about that integration and protocol order flow and there are the list continues it can be anything it can be uh even recruitment related it can be legal it can be related to the BD marketing and so on so many other things you can just imagine yourself and what can be um potentially beneficial for for the users and cow itself let's have a look on some successful grants and I would like to start with Milkman so which um when you go to cow swap a platform you base your um you you put the number of assets and what assets exactly you want to trade and you also need to um put out the minium out you would like to receive from this trade let's say you are trading one8 and you want to receive $2,000 um sorry 2,000 usdc right so um this is like the minimum out you would like to to to receive but sometimes when the market uh like volatize it's super difficult to keep it because uh when the price uh drops significantly it means me that your trade would not be uh executed at all or if the price sorry if the price goes UPS it means that your order will not be executed and if the price drops it means that your uh trade can be executed poorly so uh to protect that uh Charles uh Delton from yel Finance uh proposed a grant the name is Milkman streamlining streamlining smart contrast routing that basically uh will solve this problem what man does it's checking the data and um to to ensure that the minium out is uh the most suitable for for the users and your trade will be executed successfully uh the funny thing is that actually this is a bat Milkman bat can be used for many other Dows and uh which actually already uh Ed successfully so if you guys are interested you also can uh take as a not for uh for your yourself the second one is privacy preserving cow swap Trader ledger board um and the third one is twap orders the grant was uh of amount of 10K and the first grant was in amount of 45k and all of them they were successfully executed and um starting from June 2022 over 70 grants were refunded and uh some of them they still ongoing and we're receiving more and more uh grants on daily basis and this is something which is uh me personally and the Kow we really would like to see we would like to see more grants which are uh submitted and successfully executed on a regular basis what are the incentives of contributing to cow grants you might think right so the first one is you are contributing to the community you are shaping the community yourself you contributing shortterm longterm to different projects you can see how they change what uh success they bring to the users what needs they cover and so on for me personally I think that's really great incentive and uh I would like to see more contributors who are contributing to different grants and not only contributing but also uh sharing the ideas um thinking about the compossibility and so on the second one is getting rewarded so once you submit the grant you also allocate uh how much funds you want to receive for this grants so it can be really various it can be um from x amount to the sky only is a limit of course and it's uh really depends um on the project and you can it depends also how you will get paid and the third one my favorite one because as I mentioned the beginning I'm leading a people and recruitment department so if you um start contributing through C RS you also have a possibility to become a core contributor and for me it's super important since uh I'm responsible for for the hiring and we have actually a couple of super successful stories which I'm personally proud of uh where people becoming a core contributor of cow uh starting by uh some short cow grants uh projects okay so application process is truple super straightforward I will also share with you more information uh in the end of this presentation so basically you can submit your application by completing the application form template and we also provide you with the template so you can go and check yourself uh the details you also can have a look on already submitted and executed grants and the second one is the grant committee will review the application and provide comments on the proposal if there are any we have eight committee and uh two have the grant funded we need at least five uh votes right so five of them needs to vote and the third one is final approval of a grant and um requires a formal snapshot what as I mentioned how can you start contributing today that's a gold question right so uh I always say that uh just make your own research check what c means what projects we have what actually are needs we are super uh transparent we try to be visible we really communicate with our community we try to engage our community as much as we can we are super you know talkable on different channels on Discord you basically can ask us any questions and uh like through telegram or any other channels so uh research yourself would you think you have you can contribute to c da Community today the second one you reach us out as I said we are super super reachable and uh we even have a dedicated discard Channel we have actually many channels there channels there so you can check yourself and uh the third one the third one is to plan for the grant and hopefully uh start contributing after your Grant is approved so that's all about the grunts and let's jump to the solver competition which is a juice juicy topic here and I really like to to look on all of those charts so let's have a closer look at batch auctions which we have so uh how many people here we have who trade on C swap okay do we have anyone who try to deploy a solver oh okay that's great and do we have anyone from the liquidity providers okay so this is basically a cow swap it's a straightforward UI similar to Unis swap to 1 in and so on so once you go as I mentioned you submit the amount of assets you would like to to trade you also submit your minium out and instead of uh submitting your transaction straight away on onchain as I mentioned we are gathering intense and um Pro providing those intents to the solvers to provide you with the best possible solution let's have a closer look on it here so if you if you can see here it's super straight straightforward here is actually much more complicated and to be honest even not all the details are here this is a super high level view on what is happening um Within These batch auctions so we are gathering Inns which you can see here what we do after we are putting all the intents to the order book and here is actually when the solver competition starts so solver competition is basically a game where where we say we're Gathering all the intents and we're saying to the solvers now the game starts you need to provide with the best possible solution for the user and um here is the way how they can provide uh can I okay so here is the way how they provide those um solutions they can uh use a single transaction so basically just connect an INT with a liquidity pool it can be anything it can be Unis swap um balance it can balancer it can be 1 in and so on or they can be um uh more creative I put it in this way and connect them through peer-to-peer tradings ring trades including liquidity pools and so on so they they really can you know go in depth and search for the best possible solution for the users be creative and uh use all of those possible ways after once the solutions are submitted back so here actually should be also autopilot which helps uh to uh uh provide uh like which helps kick on basically the um competition and also gathers all the responses and uh choosing the best possible solution the winner basically of the competition and once um the winner is submitted then through the driver we submit uh all the Solutions in one uh transaction on chain is it clear perfect I'm glad okay so basically what solar competition is it's a game which is played every few second and um the more specification you can find in capap 38 as I mentioned uh there are a couple of ways have you how the um solution can be executed is through single orders or through multiple orders when you have more users and you have various um basically orders so let's have a look um let's have a closer look at the example of a trade so this is a real trade and here you can see um um very straightforward trade of two users where ring based trade actually is involved so they use uh also liquidity pool of unisab with three pool and uh they also use uh their own assets for for submitting that so basically ring trades which is which is mentioned here okay purpose of the solver competition so first of all the centralization and reability we don't want to have it centralized at cow but we want to decentralize that and to involve more solvers to uh contribute to the users um success and to the users uh um assets and so on the second one is solving complex challenges uh some of the submissions are really challenging especially with new assets with new coins which we have on the market and so on so there are more and more research are needed and uh sometimes solution are really complex becoming a solver guys here you need to pay a close attention Okay what are actually the incentives of becoming solvers so first of all you provide the better price to the users you contributing into the space yourself the second one is receiving rewards from the da so c da allocates C tokens annually to encourage participation in the competition and for the instant for the first year we allocated um 20 millions of cow and in the second year we located this year we allocated 16 million cows and you might think that the price is reducing right not really because the cow tokens are growing up okay and uh the the third one is making the protocol more robust and decentralized you got it how to become the solver so just contact the core team uh Pink them and say that you would like to be a solver I will provide you with a telegram group uh channel in the end of the presentation the second one is you need to create a bonding pool and here it's a question okay because the bonding pool is quite large so um the the bonding pool is half a million of us thec and 1.2 million of cow tokens or uh we understand that not every solver can provide this amount of um of assets that's why we created our uh Cal creating its own bonding pool and basically with the same amount of uh half a million of usdc and 1.2 um uh a million of cow tokens but uh there are some limitations uh if you provide your bonding pool as as I mentioned in the beginning of this uh if you go back where is that as I as I mentioned so here is a driver who is submitting onch the transaction on onchain so you basically can have your own driver so it doesn't uh it's it's not a cow out driver basically but uh if you use um C bonding pool you have some limitation and uh um let's talk about that more in details right now so CIP Sam describes more in details the requirements for solver to join the competition and if you're really interested to become a solver I highly encourage you to go more in detail and to make your own research since there are like literally lots of things and unfortunately despite of my big interest I will be super glad to provide you with more information but unfortunately we will not be able to cover everything and uh but I'm also open for for more discussions today or tomorrow more of uh let's talk about why the bonding pools actually are needed so why do we need to have this Bond the bonding pool for uh for the solvers so first of all the solvers get the direct access to the settlement contract which accumulates fees and malicious solver could drain These funds also if um the solver has a driver um receives an access to the private key and uh the second one is to ensure that users get the highest possible price Improvement so a militia solver could match them at a limit price so we put lots of efforts to protect the users we U the security is one of the biggest issues uh nowadays in defi so we really want to take all the risks from solvers uh sorry from the users and to delegate them to to the uh parties as solers right so we want to protect the users and this is our key main point that's why we really need to have those boundary pool because of those reasons mentioned here um I spoke about the cow Dow bonding pool right a dow manage solution for smaller solver to join the competition the onboarding process includes the following uh steps and uh also just a note that requires keeping 25% of cow rewards locked until they're exiting uh the pool the same as uh if they provide the full Bond one they exiting the pool uh if all everything is fine they receive their bond back okay here it should be like this but we really want to have more solvers we want to and you you might ask like why do you guys want to have more solvers right so at the moment we are on ethereum mainnet we are on agnosis chain and on June 4th we launch on on arbitrum so we are on those uh uh three chains we are super proud of it but of course we would like to grow more because we want to be more visible more accessible for the users we want to give them even more values and and for that we need more solvers so first of all uh because we can grow um on different chains and also secondly because we can uh have even higher even better better competition and provide even with better solutions for for the users so that and um those are just you know two reasons which I would like to highlight but there are of course much more things uh around that so we created recently in May I don't remember the exactly date our C Felix proposed uh the capap 44 for um which says um I conditions and requirements for reduced bonding pool for solvers especially individual solvers because you can be as a team of solvers who who cont who contribute to cow or you can be also an individual solver right and at the moment we have 21 solver so with the minimum um initial the deposit of 50k in yel buing stable coins or eth and how a million Cavo you already can become a solver but also you need to pay a Target deposit within a year which is uh 100K in yeld bearing stable coins or E plus 1 million cow right so this target deposit you will pay within the year and how you will pay um 50% of your rewards will be locked to fill uh the target deposit and you also can um pay of course uh yourself and uh once it's filled uh again like you are fully um providing all the support to the users and you are a solver who are contributing to the competition right so we have those three options first you have a full bond with no limitations secondly you have cow um Bond and the third one you have reduced bonding uh requirements with some limitation um and more of them are specified in cap 44 which I highly encourage you if you would like to become a solver to read more in details okay so that's all guys I would like you to scan this cure cod with more links and uh cow provides various resources including a testing environment for yourself documentation and IPI access to support contribut ERS and solvers in their efforts so if you would like to receive any more information if you would like to see our data please uh check all the information uh and also at the moment we are um hiring we hiring for the marketing role um but uh if you would like to join C feel free to reach me and uh we also have a referral program and um just go on our website cow. F fi and check more details if you refer someone you also receive a super in my opinion juicy referal um bonus and um let's stay in touch feel free to reach me feel free to ask me any questions you would like feel free to connect and and just have a look what C out does I would be more than glad to to chat and um I would like to accept any uh questions you have right now now do we have [Applause] time hello and thank you for your speech I have a question uh so to run a solver do you have a prebuilt solver or it should be built by me or ourself if we wanted to run it uh could you please specify a question so how you so do you have like a pre-built solver that could be deployed and then bonded or it should be built for example by me to be a solver thank you thank you for the question really good one so it's actually should be built by you we can give you lots of guidelines uh documentation and we also can show you how it works or you can again like have a look yourself because we have those information for any solver who who who would like to become a solver but uh it should be done by you so the deployment itself I'm sorry thank you hey uh thanks for for the talk I kind of missed uh part of it so maybe you already mentioned this uh are the solvers on chain or are they like solving offchain great question I really like it so the competition the solver competition is happening offchain and submitting the transaction the final transaction we goes to the user is onchain hello hi and I want to ask a question about the name of the project why c da wow that's a an excellent question I was waiting that someone will ask me for that so c means for a coincidence of once when you want uh what I want I want what you want that's actually reference to our users that we have win-win solution that we provide to the users with the best possible executions and um basically where they they benefit out of um transaction and DOW is decentralized autonomous organization thank you my pleasure anyone more questions no I can see I just I just want to say big thank you to the organizers for making it happen it's really it's really great and uh for all the uh people for all the speakers attendees who came from the abroad guys you you did a long cow which actually I did myself and uh told the Ukrainian thank you thank you Maria for this inspiring speech and actually proceeding with this topic uh about Ukrainian uh win in this War I would like to invite to the stage Alexander the member of Ukrainian crypto Community who assembles drones fpv drones and he will tell us more about his mission and please uh donate to drones uh the QR code is already here hello everyone uh thank you for this possibility so first I would like to thank you k ethereum for organizing this hackathon and for inviting such a valuable guests speakers really cool I will take just a couple of your minutes for non crypto related stuff so I presented myself a KX fpv manufacturing we assemble drones I assemble them myself and I brought a couple of simp models for you to check and right now we're trying to raise money for one of subd divisions of Ukrainian National Guard which is called the punishment of Heaven they are serving right now in harken region near W chank you all can imagine how hard is it right now and uh we are trying to race for such 10 in uh drones that will be really helpful this are bomber drones we already uh raised 417 in drones for for for the from yesterday yeah so really thankful to everyone who donated we really appreciate it and if everyone has any question about assembling prices accessories of drones I could tell you everything I know so and we'll be uh thanks will be thankful to everyone who will donate so guys will really appreciate it thank you thank you Alexander for your amazing work and um I know that our next speaker is ready so let me introduce uh Raza developer relations from scroll and the topic will be reasons to build on scroll I can be seen okay cool I'm I see on screen very big um hello everyone honored to be here uh virtual beaming in uh and uh yeah I will uh I will kick it off by sharing my screen oh uh I can't share my screen if someone can make me a host that would be great think uh Rosy slap if you can help me out yep perfect right I'm just going to share my screen I don't think my screen is showing uh up but oh there it go all right perfect um yeah so today I'm going to talk about you know why Zs and why scroll reasons to build on scroll um slight change in my role I used to be developer I now lead head of growth but this is actually going to be uh one of my last talks at a hakon we will have a new person joining so uh actually super super honored that I came to do this as one of my last talks uh still at scroll but a slightly different role um and so I will uh dive into it what we have uh for for uh EF is two and a half K in prices so this is just a quick rundown um we we will have three prizes two times uh $1,000 per team uh plus an honorable mention uh and one time uh a $500 team but for for a team the criteria really the hard criteria is make sure it's deployed on scoia and verify the contract so make sure in your read me it's at the top so we can very easily verify it uh and Below you find some tips um let's go um so what I want to talk to you about a little bit I'm sure most of you know it uh most Ukrainian devs that I talk to you know you guys are above average quality like top top devs but for those who might not know how exactly ZK is used inside scroll and for scalability I will spend a little bit time on that uh and so uh I like to do that through a story time uh in a land Far Far Away there's a king and this King what he wants is every person in that Kingdom needs to show the receipt for everything they buy uh but the king is not so happy because you know it takes a lot of time uh to to to check all these transactions uh and all these receipts so what he does is he hires an accountant and he tells you know I want you to check uh the receipt for every transaction and just give me a report with a stamp um but now what if the accountant can be bribed uh and the king is again not so happy so what the king then does is he gives the uh accountant a report generator and this uh report generator only takes in the receipt in a very specific format so the account cannot gain the system uh and now the report just gives uh the sorry the report generator gives a report with a stamp uh and the king is Happy uh you know most of you who understand let's say uh how ZK rolls work can I already relate that in this case you know the subjects are users transactions obviously transactions and then the accountant in this case is the L2 scroll which takes in these transactions and we have a proof system that checks you know whether these transactions are valid uh in this case the report with a stamp the stamp is the ZK proof and the king in this case is the ethereum who we submit the transactions and uh the ZK proof would uh and we'll go into deeper let's say uh the technical side of things in a bit which is now um is the scroll architecture so so in this case what happens is a user uh sorry the the our technical stack has mainly let's say quote unquote three layers one is obviously ethereum that has two main contracts the bridge contract and the rollof contract uh as you might know uh on scroll the native currency is uh Eve so you bridge E from uh ethereum to scroll so that's the same for testnet so if you are developing that uh you will need to bridge some E from uh sapoia test net to scroll test net now um in our resources and also on our docs there are faucets available for you so if you want to just like get directly e on scroll no worries we got you you can go to the faucet and grab them um but then the second part is like let's say the our Network where you just interact uh with scroll just the way you're used to uh with ethereum and then side by side we have a proven Network that basically takes uh data or the transaction data and we'll go into it deeper in the next slide but to generate these proofs and then we pass this proofs to rollup contract so on the rollup contract we submit the transactions in the batch uh and and we uh uh and we basically um uh submit the proof and so if you look at the broader flow um what you can see is when a transaction is sent to the sequencer uh parallel to that what happens is um we send uh traces uh you know so data to the coordinated and in and what what happens is our proven network is activated and we proofs to prove every single up code every single bite code um and then we aggregate all these proofs and submit an aggregated proof um for uh for the batch and then we submit that both together with a transaction on chain so anyone can come in and validate that these transactions are correct um but the question is is like how fast is this and how does it exactly work so when you do uh a transactional scroll it's um basically there are three levels of finality uh as we Define one is pre-committed so when you submit a transaction it's available one to two seconds after uh you know the transaction is submitted um and that's called pre-committed in a matter of minutes we batch all the transactions and commit them on chain so in a few minutes it's actually available already on ethereum and so if anyone wants to come in and check these transactions they could but at this stage there's still trust involved on the sequencer and so roughly in 10 minutes what happens is our proof network is done and it submits that proof uh on uh it submits that approv on uh um on chain so now anyone can come in and validate that these transactions are correct um and you know uh uh the the the main question is is then okay how does this how does this uh compare with an OP rollup and so what it means is is that you know it used to be 7 with OP rups used to have an arbitrary period of 7 days now went to three and a half days uh and that's their level finality so basically if you want to bridge out of the rollup you would need to have to wait three and a half days I'm not talking obviously about three third party uh Bridges talking about the native Bridge uh and with scroll uh that is in matters of uh minutes and that's the power of a ZK rollup and this is not to throw shade you know I think the ecosystem does a great job of of improving you know all l2s uh you know are doing a great job but this is the main difference let's say between a ZK rollup and an OP rollup um and so um when it comes to ZK rollups generally in this space you might think okay what's the difference between one Z with another and this is where the reasons to build on scroll start so we take a lot of pride in being evm compatible and what that means is anything you do on ethereum you can do on scroll one to one especially after our latest upgrade there are only a few let's say hashing mechanisms very very specific hashing mechanisms that aren available yet like BL to f um but shot 56 you know the pre- compiles like EC pairing which are very important uh for ZK tooling they are all available and so when you look at ZK rollups generally speaking you have you know one that's more on the EV compati evm compatible so bite code compatibility and one you have on language compatibility and so ZK sync is for instance an example of a language compatible um ZK roll up and the the the trade-off is is that if you're closer to ethereum the dev experience is more superior but the proof generation uh takes a hit on performance now you will say this so this is based on actually vitalic article but a type one 2 three4 the reason why I'm not showing that one is what you're seeing is that again all l2s are making great improvements and at scroll we're we're committed to delivering the best product too for the developers um and so we're making enhancements on optimization so uh our next upgrade will come soon and that means that you know even though the performance takes a hit on a more evm compatible chain which means the gas prices are higher the gas pric are going to go lower and lower and I'm very confident by by the end of this year we will be on par uh with let's say a language compatible uh ZK rollup so that's why this um depiction is let's say uh you know still I would say it was more of a a snapshot but evm compatibility close to evm compatibility I.E every def tool that works the same uh as a work ethereum uh you know uh basically used to take like a significant hit let's on performance but not anymore so the power of scroll is is in uh in evm compatibility and that we're close to to etherum ecosystem um the second reason why why scroll while build on scroll is that we were not the first ZK rollup to launch uh you know uh there were uh other zes at launch before us but we focused heavily on security first make sure that you know the the chain is is super reliable and secure and we've continuously to double down on that with with our latest uh implementation of the multi-prover uh which means that there are multiple proving systems so what is better than one proof it's multiple proofs because what if a circuit has a but right then that means that I'm proving the wrong thing uh so what we are uh doing is we implemented multi proofs uh uh well it will be fully imp ment soon and that means that the security of the chain goes higher and while we're doing this we're also hyper optimizing to make sure that the gas fees remain low and soon we will think about througho U and so developer experience is very important but also for very specific case which is ZK compatibility now I'm going to tell you another story before I talk about what ZK compatibility is this is a a picture of me and Ahmed uh we were hacking last year in E Barcelona and I thought you know what let's uh uh buil a uh ZK voting app so anyone can come in can vote at cost and no one would know um and so I thought okay you know user logs in uh we will generate a proof upon casting the vote um and then we verify that ZK proof onchain easy peasy right well not exactly and Ahmed is is our specialized de in ZK and so uh this is where my meltdown started and if you know you're hack you're going to have this moment too but don't worry uh you know this is usually around the midnight 2 3 a.m. phase um but what I found out that there is actually a lot more when it comes to ZK and especially when you want to do it on rollups and so one of the powers that we have at scroll and one of the powers that we have as let's say being evm compatible is that these tools are built for ethereum which means that everything needs to work the same on uh uh on a um on the ZK roller which every op code every uh all the hashing mechanism the pre-compile and so this is a this is from the docs from nor nor Lang is a language I'm I'm very uh uh I I really enjoy using because it's a DSL domain specific language to generate proofs but here you can see in the do not all evm chains support EC par notably ZK VMS um and so we uh we pride ourselves that we do support that which means that if you want to integrate ZK in your application you don't have to worry it will work on scroll um and so in the most simplest way when you know you devs are going to start building you know you'll have two parts to when it comes to ZK which is building the circuit and the second part is deploying the verification contract to verify that this ZK is indeed valid um and when you do that you need to look at the chain and say okay cool but that means that an evm chain when you look deeper it needs to support certain things for you that these are curves hashes hash mechanisms pre- compiles uh and as a Dev you need to evaluate that and this is one again another reason for you to build on scroll is because you don't need to worry about that we support these things that for these ZK tools that are built for ethereum uh and then some other consideration you need to make is that on the right side is performance you know especially when you do client side or mobile you'll find that proof generation and this is outside of scroll proof generation uh we're not quite there yet still they're great libraries but proof generation can take a lot of time and by the way if you're going to do this on mobile quick warning uh I bricked my phone uh because I was running proofs on my phone and then it got hot and over the course of two months uh my battery completely died so it it was like through a lot of uh testing for a specific project but proof generation uh you know uh is still very very intensive even though there this is maybe already a little bit outdated there are very very cool client side circuits and SDK being L um and so uh this is uh you know more looking back that calling out the shot 56 sh 256 is known as a ZK unfriendly hashing mechanism and I'm really really proud that due to our latest last upgrade in April or end of May end of March we also support shot 56 um and 1559 just calling it out very very very very soon so keep I think in matter of weeks we will have that support for 592 um and so at the end of the day um if you look at let's say 2023 we had the fastest growing ecosystem and that is because the dev experience something I take a lot of pride in uh you know was Superior and this was known across our ecosystem and felt through the developers and so if you look at like a simple uh you know um way of looking at how scroll could interact scroll interacts with ethereum is that even on uh if you want another reason to build is is that you could deploy your contract on uh scroll but we inherent the security of ethereum and all our data is posted on ethereum so you could even use State proofs to access the data on ethereum um without even interacting with scroll directly um the last thing I'll say is that building on scroll we have very much a Community First approach uh and you know what my team members are like far better role model and example for this uh and I will call this out is that um you know we've been listening to our community when it comes to gas fees and I'll tell you now keep an eye out very very very soon we will have an upgrade and we will lower the gas fees um and and very very soon we're coming with a uh Grand uh uh program where we will be able to support devs and projects um and you'll be able to apply but already today we've got initiatives that you know where we support devs uh support devs want to build and and take you from zero to one and then one and above and beyond um and so if you if you are curious if you want to get in touch with the team you know we're very open feel free to reach out and DM me uh more than happy to help build the help build together and make you guys successful um you can find me anywhere online on at razac codes um and uh I'm more than happy to support and help uh you guys build the ecosystem um I hope this talk was useful uh again I'm I'm super honored to be here and uh and hope to see amazing projects being built um if there are any questions more than happy to take them please raise your hand if you have any questions okay so audience says that everything is clear thank you very much Raza for your participation today here is applauses for you thank so much and uh uh yeah I just want to say uh thank you for having me uh and I truly hope everyone uh everyone is safe uh and remain safe and I pray for a bright future thank you so much thank you take care guys bye-bye okay our next speaker will join us online at 11:30 so you have a few minutes to give yourself a drink e e [Music] hey everyone please come back to the lecture hall we will start soon [Music] oh oh oh [Music] we are starting just in a minute so please come back [Music] oh [Music] so we are back and our next speaker is tan Lee who is joining us online he is co-founder of pandal finance and the topic is ble what is next yeah thanks for uh thanks for taking the time in uh it's a it's a it's a pleasure to to be here um share about Pendle and what we are up to in the next couple of months um so as a as a wave of introduction I'm CEO co-founder of Pendle um and I have been involved in the crypto space professionally since 2017 and have seen through uh quite quite a couple of Cycles uh Bull and Bear since then have had the privilege to work with some of the most capable and competent people in the sector and um the the the journey has been uh extreme fruitful for me personally so yeah just just a just a quick uh introduction on the protocol itself um so pendal is the largest rate softs protocol for fixed rates and yeld trading in defy what Pendle does is to take in a yield bearing asset such as st e um or more recently like s usde and split it into a principal token and deal token so with these two parts Parts separated from each other they can be traded independently and the outcome of which is the creation of fixed rates and floating rate markets um and and when we started out we had really we were mostly inspired by the idea of creating interest rate swaps and just for a quick um quick background right like we started this protocol in 2020 and the whole motivation for us to start this protocol was because my co-founders and I we were farming a lot of shitcoins uh the food coins that were offering maybe 10 to 20,000% apy so we knew that as much as we liked the idea of having high apys we were also quite certain that there was no way to lock in the yield even if it's like 50 20% so we looked around and we wanted an instrument that could enable us to achieve our objective of locking yield but there just wasn't any and when we compared the state of crypto at that point in time to uh a matur financial sector it occurred to us that fix income products are arguably the largest segments in in the whole of the financial sector but it was largely Epson in crypto and our view then was that if we anticipate more liquidity we're to flow into the ecosystem and with more professional money managers handling large amount of funds in crypto then there needs to be a way for them to manage their yield explo exposure and I think generally speaking a responsible money manager would want to have a combination of fixed rates and floating rates um e exposure so that in itself we thought was a very meaningful problem statement and prompted us to think about the design um and and for us we opted for the splitting of a yield bearing asset into PT and YT was because we knew that we were operating in a very n sector and at that point in time in Q4 2020 a and compound collectively they were already commanding about20 billion in tvl and then there's Pendle and we have unproven track record we have nothing to Showcase to other people so we thought it would make a lot more sense to build on top of a compound instead of competing for liquidity against them that's why why we pioneered the splitting of a yield bearing asset into ptmt so our first markets then was actually we had two F two two markets that we launched with one was a usdc and then the other one was C die from compound so we um we've come a long way since 2020 and today with the the Pendle that is currently operating is actually Pendle V2 which was launched in December of 2022 so I just want to highlight a couple of high level differences between the V1 and V2 um and I think the the amm design for v2 was largely motivated by some of the shortcomings and bottleneck that we observe in V1 that was launched in 2021 so between 2021 and 2022 we actually didn't have a lot of traction but we had a live product that allowed us to capture useful data and make meaningful observations of how people interacted with our protocol and then Incorporated those learnings into the design of pendal V2 so firstly I think when we when we thought about the design of pendel amm we wanted to make sure that it was friendly to liquidity providers and it was actually meaningful for liquidity providers from the apy standpoint that's why we designed Pendle amm to be Capital efficient so between V1 and V2 there was actually uh 200 times improved efficiency in in in the uh Capital utility um so this part was taking Inspirations from Unis swap uh concentrate uh uh concentrated liquidity right and um so so the liquidity that is deposited Works harder and it should generate higher apy for the liquidity providers and then we were also quite clear to our liquidity providers that there were multiple sources of revenue so um generally when it comes to liquidity provision into amm pools because the contract sorry because the yield bearing asset gets deposited into the pool the pool contract will actually be absorbing any kind of native tokens that were paid out by the underlying protocol but in this case what pendal does differently is to pass on those native tokens that were paid out from for example protocols like a and compound and pass it on to the user so they don't compromise on the liquidity provision part there and and we try to minimize opportunity costs um for for for liquidity providers and of course um it is really specialized for yield trading uh so aside from just having concentrated liquidity right we also customize it for um all types of yield assets so meaning to say we are not I mean Pendle can support many different types of yield bearing assets for example uh from the money markets from uh from yield optimizers like year uh and and a couple of others and and more interestingly the the amm protocols as well so the these days we try to focus on um the reaking assets but that shouldn't confine us on the types of assets that can be supported on Pendle and and and one other aspect that I think is quite important that that concerns a lot of liquidity provider is the impermanent loss aspect right because um with most other amm um when a user deposit liquidity into a pool there's always a consider for impermanent loss and the way we design the pendal amm is to eliminate this as much as possible so generally speaking for for a for a liquidity provider as long as they deposit the liquidity and leave it in the pool until matur and and withdraw it only after maturity the pool like the the user will not incur any kind of impermanent loss uh and this is a very important aspect because um this is structured almost like an up only um liquidity pool so we were able to obtain quite a substantial amount of support from multiple different types of liquid Prov uh uh sorry multiple different uh liquidity providers in the beginning um and and and then gradually I think for the entirety of last year we were able to build on several build on top of several several major narratives um and then I think for a big part of this this uh this this year we also rote on the back of reaking and points trading to to grow to the state that we are at at the moment now so I just want to share very quickly some of the things that we we value internally as we went from Pendle V1 to V2 so so these are the four core values that we believe in uh very deeply and we practice it internally as a team um so when we launched pel V2 we made it a point to have a iterative product development process so meaning to say that the product that we launched in December 2022 was not the end State because we will be interacting with many users and with many different data points we should continue to improve on the product and true enough I think we have made many many different changes and we've experimented with multiple different types of uiux some worked some didn't and for the ones that that that didn't work out we we just eliminated them and then move on and I think the other the other point is investment in growth and Business Development this is especially important I think in the case of crypto because it is not uncommon to come across a team that has very solid Tech development uh competency and they have fantastic product but they don't invest enough resources to get the distribution and unfortunately when that investment was lacking usually they don't get the kind of traction that they wish they they could and over time the product just becomes irrelevant so this is where we're try to do things a bit differently we have so so we have invested in uh many many different educational resources to try to get users to understand what Pendle is and we have also constructed many different use cases that and case studies that users can refer to very easily to try to understand some of the opportunities that that uh prevails on on Pendle um so these the like some these educational Outlets include um like our docs our educational portal and then Pendle intern so these are these are very deliberate resources that we design to help users understand our product and then on the business development front we actually spend a lot of time to explain to our end users and potential Target users the propositions so what I shared about the Pendle amm with you we've done it in person with many many different money managers uh in the past or even uh until today so we have been very very um aggressive in in just trying to get users to understand the proposition of Pendle and if there is an overlapping interest we try to help them ease the onboarding process for them and be there to support them to the best of our ability and from our observation the conversion has generally been quite healthy and then of course I think like in crypto it helps to stay on top of Trends because narratives change from time to time and what we try to do is really to focus on narratives that matter meaning to say they are because like in crypto things move so quickly but on an annual basis there are probably two or three trends that will be more meaningful than others for example this year reaking is one of the more important um Trends and we asserted Pendle and Affiliated the brand with this particular narrative and figure out a way to help users benefit from this particular movement uh and and most importantly I think it's having the attitude of continuous experimentation so this I think is is is an attitude that that all all teams should adopt if you want to um yeah just excel in in a fast moving environment like like like the one in crypto that that we're all uh somewhat involved in because things move and things change all the time sometimes the ideas that you have today might work but tomorrow because of changing environment it might not and similarly things might not work today but you know in in a matter of time uh maybe a month or two later because of certain Catalyst the idea that you thought of today could could could work because of changing environment so it helps to have all these different ideas in place and then very structurally experiment with some of them you never know what might work out uh so as a case in point when we started out Pendle V2 we actually experimented with quite a lot of different narratives we have tried we we attempted to affiliate Pendle with the nft ecosystem by supporting AP coin and looks rare that didn't work out too well um we have also position panel as a low cap gem that also didn't work out too well and uh we also position Pendle uh and and trying to affiliate the sector that we're operating in to interest rate swaps in tread F and try to help users understand the market potential there that didn't work out too well but what stuck was actually the lstd narrative at the beginning of last year and I think that Stu because it's stuck around and I think for the the rest of the year people kind of associated Pendle with lsts like sth and R eth and we gradually build up a brand reputation from there so it's it's just one form of experimentation but there are many many aspects for example in growth and also the product side that can that that that requires quite consistent experimentation so um this is just a little bit of the traction that uh it's just an illustration of the traction that we had so we launched uh Pendle end of 2022 um for the entirety of last year we happed at around $250 million in tvl this year because of I'd say like because of continuous experimentation and also luck uh we saw very very significant growth from 250 million tvl to now approaching $7 billion in tvl so again we have been very very fortunate with the reaking narrative and the points narrative and we have been great beneficiaries of the growth of uh for example ether five Renzo ethena and then more recently circuit um and and without these Partners we we wouldn't have have achieved as much traction but also what was consistent was the the strategies that we adopted basically identifying major narratives from just just looking at what people pay attention to and then do our best to affiliate with these um yeah different different narratives that could make sense uh and then collectively I think the cumulative trading volume for most of last year it was relatively flat on a daily basis we would be very happy if the trading volume hold us at around 300 to 500 Grand a day today we generally average at around 100 million to $150 million um per day so the The Climb was actually pretty pretty drastic and we will do our best to sustain that growth now so next up for Pendle um we we actually have quite a few parts that we are are working on very very actively so for example we want to have a sustained involvement in re in the reaking sector because we have seen the interest from the community in the reaking sector through igen layer uh in the first half of the year and all the LRT protocols like ether fire Renzo kelp have been major uh players in this space uh and we've also worked with all of them to to cultivate this this ecosystem now more recently we see new entrance in the space such as karak and symbiotic we think that these protocols have a lot of potential and can help accelerate the growth of the entire reaking sector and we want a position Pendle to help these upcoming protocols to improve the adoption so now more uh just just two days ago we launched several symbiotic markets and then yesterday we launch a new symbiotic market for E ethery uh and then we will observe how the market responds to it but so far from from what we can tell the appetite for the reaking sector remains very strong now on the second part it's involvement in the Bitcoin ecosystem so similar to our view on the reaking sector we think that the Bitcoin ecosystem in the second half of the year can be I it can be a pretty dominant narrative in the second half of the year uh this is because Bitcoin is the single largest asset in crypto and Defi and even if 1% of that value gets utilized for defi it can it it is actually a very meaningful amount my personal belief is that a lot of users would actually want to have a safe and trusted way to utilize their Bitcoin to generate wealth and I believe that in the second half of the year we will see some of these option alties made available for users so things like Babylon would be very interesting and then protocols that are building on top of Babylon um they they will Sprout out and we will have to figure out a strategy to work with these protocols and help improve adoption in this particular segment um and the same kind of Mantra also extends to other promising chains um so we see a lot of um very very promising chains up and coming and we will do our best to to to to help them grow uh and then one last point is on pendal V3 um so so what we have so far with Pendle is um Pendle V2 so um we are currently making a new implementation that is scheduled for launch at the end of the year so this uh to the extent that I can share will enable leverage yield trading because we see how yield trading is currently behaving and it's already becoming quite a quite a popular instrument in in the in its current state and we want to scale it up to enable more different types of use cases so more of this will be shared with the community in in a couple of months so stay tuned for that um um and finally I just want to share some opportunities um that that we see on top of Pendle so um we because there is actually quite a substantial amount of liquidity um that's built on top of Pendle we are seeing quite a number of other protocols Building Products that utilizes pendle's liquidity so these are just some ideas that I think could be interesting and useful for the consideration of of fellow Builders here but they are not by by no means um the only ones to consider so firstly um I I just want to point out yield Optimizer right because uh one of the one of the things that we see with Pendle is that uh By Design Pendle has uh component of maturity so every pool will actually mature at some point in time and so far we have been very actively pushing for adoption of pt as collateral um but for some money markets they would prefer they like the idea of PT but they would prefer that PT continues to generate yield for a long long time ideally perpetually so with pedal markets because of the maturity in place there needs to be an a rolling system that can help users roll their funds to new maturities when the pool matures so for example if I have an asset that will mature at the end of this year today I'll have to withdraw the liquidity from the pool and then manually deposit it into the new pool that might mature next year end of next year right so a yield Optimizer can potentially lubricate the process and take away the need to do manual rolling so user will only have to deposit once and then the strategy will will roll over the asset from a mature pool to to to to a pool that that that is newly launched automatically without the intervention of the the liquidity depositor and if a user wants to withdraw they can do so anytime they want and then lending is is another one that we think uh could be interesting as well so we see a lot of um again like we have been very actively pushing for adoption of um PT collateral two lending markets specifically and we see interesting strategies happen on Silo do mind and a couple of these money markets so I think there could potentially be other forms of lending that could take place for example like uh CDP that utilizes PT assets uh so yeah user deposite of PT asset that generates yield and then these these assets can be uh you uh use as collateral to to borrow maybe stable coin or some other assets um yeah basically to help uh improve the overall liquidity of um uh the underline and the last part is actually structured structured uh products so um things like index uh would be of interest because some people they want exposure of multiple different protocols uh to today they might have to individually deposit assets into uh yeah into each of these pools and then when when time's up they have to manually withdraw so an index protocol can uh help automate the uh distribution of exposure across multiple different maturities or multiple different types of assets uh so that's that's one idea uh which can help improve user experience um and then the other one is yeah any any kind of utilization of YT uh we think there's a lot of potential with YT assets and with we also are of the opinion that um YT attracts a very unique type of user base uh so generally the risk appetite of YT holders or YT Traders um is is is on the higher end of the spectrum so if there are instruments that can help them maximize yield it could potentially gain decent amount of traction so these are just some ideas um yeah but not necessarily um sorry like it like it these are just some ideas but I'm sure there are a lot more that that can be done with with um the pendo protocol so finally I think like if you have any ideas uh that you want to work on that can potentially utilize Pendle um would be happy to connect with you so these are two ways that you can connect with us um Discord um and and and also like Pendle pendle's um Twitter account so reach out to us um let us know how we can be helpful thank you thank you very much uh there very applauses for you uh does anyone have any questions please raise your hand no I think that everything was clear thank you for your lecture for us for presentation see you bye-bye thank you all right thanks okay and our next speaker will join me on this stage offline let me introduce uh Leona founder of inmax and applauses hi nice be you guys so I'm Leona from INX and I want to make a brief her know my uh greetings are in ukrainians in 30 seconds and let's start from here so [Music] [Laughter] [Music] cl2 uh Dy ukrainians uh e pre ofans Tom English actually you know I finished the most difficult so I'm really really to proceed the presentation and I there the yeah Ukrainian CHS are super difficult so I yeah no yeah I kind of change all the stuff to Japanese kind of character and it's quite night here so okay let's start the easier part so I'm a found uh co-founder in Marx and we are providing stateless or L to and I did not come here to advertise my uh project actually I want to talk about the statelessness and the privacy and also Freedom at the same time okay so what is stateless in the context of crypto so it's not about a person without person so I am a not trop in a lot of country so I can say my is stateless but yeah no actually in the context of crypto no stateless is all about being small block what is small block so in 2017 there's a huge conflict in Bitcoin space or no it was Bitcoin cash versus Bitcoin core and it was a all about small go small blocks or Big Blocks what the the Merit of Big Blocks no big sounds perfect right so but the Big Blocks make a kind of huge requirement for nodes sometimes and yeah uh it limits their number of nodes mean that it limits the decentralization sometimes and uh so it's it can be stoppable by uh some entity powerful entity or it can be kind of controllable by some entities or government and these kind of stuff so right now Bitcoin and maybe are no of course our ethereum it's Unstoppable under if United States and Chinese government combined together they cannot stop this kind of public blockchain and what this is making blockchain space so mysterious and also kind of powerful so small blocks is somehow good and yeah recently uh eum went the blob uh which is called 4844 or plot D Shing it's meaning that uh it's a having boss uh good side of these uh sides small block and Big Block it's like a maintaining their small block Merit decentralization and also their uh no provide their scalability as uh Big Blocks by providing their temporal big block and it's quite cool uh and stateless is all about being small blocks and their stateless layer to bring scar ability and privacy at the same time and there this is what in's doing and yeah recently there this uh stateless leayer one style like Vu tree and many kind of stateless Technologies happening uh no which is uh mainly done by is foundation people and yeah of course Pik and uh stateless Le one makes her very scalable uh decent Tri layer one and stess layer to uh makx the extreme scalability and privacy at the same time which is super powerful this is a kind of no it's like a chart on the back of the package of cereal right no there's a and no vitamin or uh calorie or no uh these kind of stuff no chart graph is u i press that the their package of cereals know they have that these kind of stuff on the back and what we provide are what what I want to say with this jart is It's there's a tradeoff there's a statelessness uh it means a small block under scalability decentralization no this is a stateless or no pole and capital efficiency poll is are no left there and Online safety is kind of uh being free from the requirement of running node uh this is a offline uh safety which directly uh connected to the ux good ux to uh of the blockchain and let's say uh stateless later to there the two example L Network and inmax and lightning Network know due to their limitation of Bitcoin script know they are they have quite uh very good scity sometimes but the other aspect they very challenging like uh need of Channel capacity and need of requirement of running node so basically running rning network is somehow doing well but also having a a huge challenges still uh it's all about Bitcoin and INX provider almost perfect uh in terms of this chart I'm selecting this chart intentionally so of course it it would be good and there's are many kind of there's are many kind of elements and metrics are in blockchain space of course so like yeah evm compatibility functionality and these kind of stuff but actually it's fair and uh yeah we can collect the many things at the same time this is the state our power of statelessness so yeah anyway uh don't trust verify verify and yeah you yeah of course I sometimes are pick up our good metrics for me and but I think it's fair enough oops so okay the next part is what is the price of privacy so I said the statelessness provide privacy and scalability at the same time and okay let's uh talk about privacy more and okay what is the PRI price of privacy can you measure that so we we we up to say that no I have more privacy less privacy I I enhance the Privacy we lost privacy but what is the privacy and we can yeah presume the value of privacy by seeing market cap or Facebook and Google actually because they are basically they don't take much money from user side and but they are using uh know the privacy of users uh to to make a business right so we can PR assume their value of know privacy online privacy uh by looking at the market cap of Facebook and Google and second thing that how much do you pay if you can get their entire privacy you can hide anything and you can have a food control privacy what how many how much do you pay how many dollar or Gina do you pay no this is a uh one of the way to presume uh the value of privacy and ser part actually uh yeah the Privacy many privacy are sold in a dark web under no kind of uh dark market so if we can check the price yeah we can uh know actually uh see the price of privacy and next next interesting question is that what is the unit of privacy so okay there volume like U it's a me square meter or square cm we we can know measure the volume right we can measure weight by Glam kilogram right what is the unit of privacy when I say I have more privacy less privacy no what's the unit of the Privacy right actually it's not defined and maybe I think I presume that we can use our know enthropy or Mutual enthropy or these kind of measure which is a common in informat informatic science but actually it's not defined so when I say my privacy level is are 500 30,000 what does it mean um this is a uh unexplored topic under no if you uh get into that maybe I am guarantee that it's a fascinating problem to solve oops and the Privacy literally safety are in these are today's world in 2022 are so many uh crimes targeting crypto holders happened under know people already forget that because know in 2022 know more kind of terrible stuff have happened like FDX so uh people already forgot that but each are bubbles it remind that are know remind people that they need privacy and in 2022 the physical attack against the crypto holders Al so get hike on the peak and it was super big problem so yeah if I you if you got kidnapped and no asked how much money do you have maybe they will ask you first and no hiding being able to hide your whole asset or not makes so much difference and people realize that our end of their kind of bubble cycle always uh in 2017 know people were talking about that and in 2020 end of the 2021 people are talking about that and right now people are yeah forgetting about that but yeah people will remember again know when uh ETF or these kind of stuff or no uh promote their their makeer big hype or something like that so yeah it's a really important and yeah privacy is literally one of the part of the safety and the safety itself right now so yeah we can press assume that no okay the cryptographers and no NS people kind of think like a crypto attack against crypto like okay the hacker want to know uh make a big super big computer and break that and they will Retreat or G get give up that because it's super strong security oh it's a 4,096 bit RSA security so I cannot break that I will give up this attack no it doesn't go like the way and what would actually happen in many places okay no I have a $5 range and kidnap people and just punch them and they will kind of release the crypto this is a what we call five range attack so privacy is of course it's normal and it was a part of security and why don't we have privacy and uh so people should not know or see each other so much actually to respect our know each other right no sir no I'm a bit feel awkward and guilty to no kind of insert such a kind of a g slider into this just no teic B but yeah privacy is quite normal so interesting topic I'm focusing on right now is re how to re pracy and in this es Haas I'm providing such our topic under yeah I hope some guys are dealing kind of dealing this problem how to re purpose is quite our interesting topic so okay let's say there a INX is a let's say privacy protocol and if you Alice Bob C the both it one is together and one is got with WR can you tell this uh where this eer came from maybe you cannot right but if there's no Bob and carols it's obviously a list right so just using privacy protocol uh make a contribution to privacy and help the others it's quite interesting features we cannot see in the other uh protocol in this crypto space for example airdrop okay maybe some of you guys are doing there I'm like yes under okay many people struggling to have kind of uh L the correct people like uh came to deposit uh easer to this uh Network and stay uh five months and uh do many uh activities and all this is are true contributors and true truly truly benefit fit in their ecosystem so we will do the airdrop it's kind of complex right and it's really hard to uh do this correctly actually but in privacy protocol it's super easy just coming and just coming out makes contribution it's quite uh interesting uh feature so yeah if you think about this is it will be really interesting I guess what is the problem in problem in kind of rewarding privacy yeah let's say there's a two people Alis Bob is depositing ner and there's a two address uh withdrawing iser from contract and one address send money back to Alice address there's no incentive uh for Bob to do this so it's obviously Alice so we can tell that uh this address p is Bob's one right and so Alice is a she doesn't make any contribution privacy but if we l them yeah the she can get lered without contribution privacy right so this is there one of the problem and the other problem is that yeah there so many fings like this and uh so we cannot tell these instance address are owner but it doesn't matter what people want to see is the out kind of distination the final address uh which have either uh outside of protocol or outside of this contract so let's say uh these four withdrawing and depositing this doesn't make any sense actually no this is a another problem oh how much time do I oh we have time okay perfect thanks so much so this is also the problem should be solved okay then this is uh know what we were doing and uh yeah privacy was important and uh re worlding privacy is important topic and interesting topic I believe that I could uh know comp the well so then actually why do we need kind of privacy freedom and sovereignty decentralization eum people might think that there are competition like U Know between l1s and these kind of stuff and I TR believe that etherum is not innov Innovation it's about a revolution and what is different are know between where's the difference between Innovation and Revolution so yeah there are many innovation in space know making something faster making something uh making something more kind of uh good ux or these kind of stuff or making something convenient or what we call kind of innovation but okay ethereum is not kind Innovation it's a better Revolution it's more impactful and more actually Innovative so why don't we call industrial revolution industrial Innovation because it's super impactful so impactful that we cannot say this is just Innovation right so is is kind of Revolution uh which is kind of competing the existing their whole Finance system uh which is driven by paper uh and law enforcement and the paper and law reinforcement is a basis on this current today's world and I I I don't underappreciate the know what the uh paperwor are doing uh to to maintain this site but yeah the Isam is all kind of updating this point under that's why it's political sometimes and it's a revolutional uh not just a technical Innovation and another stuff Revolution is different from Innovation is it needs courage and it needs communication and yeah that are or different stuff uh being staying just an innovation so cryptography is actually the most political technology sofware or in digital world it started with no military stuff like uh no maybe you watch the movie like uh uh imitation game or describing Enigma stuff and Midway is are kind of breaking the Japanese or cryptography to to uh no uh the the fight with Japanese Army and yeah Bitcoin maybe some of you guys are noce our paper no very very famous paper their times are no it was about the financial stuff but this this Chancellor on bling of second bail out for banks know this this article was put into the Genesis block of Bitcoin and maintains its political kind of decoration and still Bitcoin her community has a strong uh political philosophy and yeah cryptography is very uh political technology sare in this space so yeah what I want to say is is yeah crypto uh it's a kind of natural that unfortunately un naturally crypto is really uh political uh technology so yeah crypto people should stay and can stay political sometimes and yeah let's stay politically hungry let's stay politically foolish and uh some of you guys might say that no no more stupid people or no more stupid no stupid influencers on our Twitter but yeah people can stay uh politically political and they stay uh foolish and hungry uh there right by their right I guess so our mission is scaring Serum with privacy and making privacy nor uninvestable this is a sometimes a bit political uh sometimes it's are quite needed and that's why I'm super op kind of optimistic and also enthusiastic about these uh stuff so yeah this is the end and uh yeah I think that no privacy is a part of safety and the kind of privacy is a part of freedom and freedom is much more variable than just being smart just being beautiful and yeah bar with them being powerful in my opinion so if yeah you were know if I was like these guys no like no Einstein brain with there no huge muscles and know I don't I I don't know they are beautiful or not but yeah it's there if I was a such a person uh if but if I was in a gauge it there's no value under there's no kind of variable like if I can spend hard there right so yeah freedom is much more valuable than yeah being smart and being beautiful being powerful uh in my mind and know that's why I enthusiastic about privacy at the same time so thank you so much this is end thank you very much do we have some questions to Theona yes hey Lona thanks for the speech the question that I have is actually more like controversial but really interested to hear your thought on that so the Privacy is really interesting it's cool that you could kind of hide the the owner of the wallet in order for anyone else to be able to see that but this raises another question how do we make sure that we make less harm than good and there is no money washing no funds that are going from I don't know for terrorists or something like that because there are a lot of let's say superstitions and stereotypes about crypto that many crypto is funding a lot of dirty money and so on so how do we make sure that the funds that are moving throughout the mixture let's call it this way they're not actually interacting with any kind of that Activity thank you yeah thanks so much and it's actually the most hot it's their hottest Topic in privacy space in my opinion right now on the RO people dealing with new types of new version privacy and yeah recently it was a half years ago uh yeah balik and know the other uh researchers are I forgot his name but know he's uh I mean yeah and he yeah no yeah from some of guys from yeah CH analysis and their privacy pool uh which is a regulation friendly and no each people can can prove that are kind of they their fund is not coming from uh no specific addresses and this means that they can decare that some kind of funds are not coming from criminals money if there people outside can detect that these are address depositing address are criminal addresses and this is very cool and no in my architecture we are using the kind or liation friendly tracers or these kind of stuff to limit the deposit so after the limit the deposit after the depositing everything will be kind of clean and uh decentralized and of course scalable and yeah these are no good aspect of crypto or no all of them are are no there after depositing limitation and I think that are no more easier way so I'm are working on that but there are many bunch of uh Innovative solution to attacking this project uh problem and yeah I think that it's solvable problem and also let's say we H this treatment is maybe in five years or 10 years in my opinion I it's just presuming that if it's not I will adop adopt myself St to the new environment but but yeah I think that in 10 years people would uh find that it's really easy to kind of limit their uh money transfer in my opinion because okay uh in Internet it's really hard to limit their kind of way to communication right so there are so many channels and maybe I can send a message to the boss of some okay there uh Colombian or Mafia or something like that maybe I can find a way to contact him right like the way it's really difficult to it's really easy uh to uh kind of send value or some kind of asset to him at the same time so it's a world of Internet so it's really uh getting more and more complex and in 10 years uh I think that people will realize that it's really hard to limit their uh limit the transfer of asset uh in effective way ultimately effective way and the problems already happen in banking space actually and uh yeah people are re yeah start to realize that and I don't know how much time they take to yeah conclude that but yeah in 10 years people will start to say that limiting money transfer or asset transfer is not effective and PE we need to deal with that and we need to have another solution more focusing on the physical uh solution like Camas and these kind of stuff to weaken their know criminals people I guess so but yeah anyway in five years or 10 years are there legation friendly privacy is totally needed so it's a really I really appreciate our know asking that question it's a really important question I agree do we have more questions no I think that's it thank you very much yes thanks so much I want to invite to the stage Alexander uh who is actually assembling drones fpv drones for Ukrainian Army and here here he is hello everyone I've been here before maybe someone remembers me so my name is Alexander and I'm representing a crypto part of community who also assembles fpv drones for our army we called KX fpv manufacturing and I brought a couple uh simple models for you to show what we are doing we also assemble much bigger and specific models but unfortunately I cannot disclose uh those things with you so we are right now trying to raise funds for National Guard of Ukraine to produce some drones for them and we already raised um funds to assemble around for drones I really thankful to everyone who donated and thankful to everyone who thinks to donate in the future so thank you very much and have a great [Applause] day thank you Alexandra our next speaker will join us online um but we need to wait a few minutes it's small technical issue [Music] we will start the next presentation quite soon uh so the speaker is FAL from from cyber he's developer relations engineer and the topic is reimagining web free social applications with cyber layer 2 so our next speaker is joining us say hi to prel hi he everyone all right um yes so I'll just share my screen there you go so yeah welcome everyone um in this presentation I'll be talking more about uh how you can build social applications uh onto web 3 which currently we don't see a lot happening I think there's a very wide Gap uh I'm going to be going over a few use cases and how cyber is trying to solve that with a layer to um so yeah that's that's the idea um just to go over what we are going to cover in this presentation I will be giving everyone an introduction to uh to the Cyber L2 uh you know the the a brief overview of the uh of the infrastructure behind cyber L2 uh I'm going to be going over some of the use cases uh which are socially inclined um and then we'll try to understand about the Cyber to features in details um and then at the end I'll try to share some of the developer Centric initiatives that we have taken uh for example like some of the upcoming developer Centric events uh hackathons and uh you know what we are trying to achieve with grouds program as well so this is a brief uh you know like a road map of what we are trying to cover uh what I'll be trying to cover today so yeah let's let's get started um so first let's understand you know what is cyber um so cyber serves as a social layer for Vi applications which means you can you can uh you can build social applications on top of cyber the way uh cyber of sort of like came into the picture um is a few years back uh you know we started as a social protocol uh where developers can come come onto the the protocol they can deploy some uh contracts uh and everything was very inclined towards uh users owning their own identity um so this was what we were trying to do like few years back uh with cyber connect and that's how link 3 which is also another product that se connect uh sort of built is like a social network uh for web3 people it's like a like LinkedIn of sorts for web3 uh Builders and web3 marketeers and everyone sort of like included in web 3 um then we thought of expanding that vision um to simplify the user onboarding flow with the help of account abstraction um and yeah slowly we also moved into the direction of creating an L2 uh so that we can have everything out of one group we can have everything sort of combined together in one ecosystem um and the main idea is to let the users own their data and leverage that to build social applications and we want to provide uh the endus was a very seamless experience uh when it comes to onboarding onto web 3 um and we want to make sure that developers have all the right set of tools and infrastructure needs that they might have for uh building any sort of social network or social application so yeah as I said like it opens Gateway for the next uh like million users for uh for them to come onto web they can experience decentralized social networks um and yeah some of the features that that we have included within our L2 to make make that possible is uh that we are built on the IG da um so you might be aware about you might be knowing about uh igen layer uh they have a data availability layer which is what we are using for our data availability um it helps us increase the uh throughput quite much uh which which basically means that the information which is sort of fre to the sequences is done much faster which makes the L2 overall much more scalable if you compare it to the ethereum main net um also we are based on the op stack uh so uh most of the developers I think uh who are trying to build on Layer Two are very familiar with the optimism stock so this gives them a lot of flexibility because uh you know they are already familiar with a lot of tools which are available and which are compatible with optimism um and lastly we also have a account abstraction wallet uh which is called cyber wallet so it gives uh developers a chance to you know take all these different pieces together and build uh dabs on Cyber then let's move on to uh you know what can be built with the Cyber L2 and over here I'm going to be comparing and uh just giving you a lot of examples uh around you know what you can think of when we talk about uh you know building either like a social dap from from scratch or if you were to let's say you know employ some of the ideas into an existing dab uh and include those social features onto your existing dab which you really want to do um so yeah let's go over go over these use cases first um so firstly we have the data monetization and social networks in general so uh you know like super basic uh you can build social networks on top of rl2 you can have the data unions uh which can be used for which can be used by ad networks for better and enhanced advertising onto the decentralized layer uh we can also use data legs for better mining of the of the data uh and we can leverage the AI models that we have right now to train and improve the uh the recommendation models and a lot of other models which might be running in the background when we talk about a social network um then uh there comes a data composite AB ility or you can say data reusability part um which includes uh unified identity so what it means is um is basically a user can have uh they can carry their single profile onto different social networks um this is one of the examples right so let's examp let's let's imagine uh having uh two or three different social platforms a user can carry their uh reputation which could be their followers uh their Post history their profiles across different social medias um and this creates a very seamless social experience uh for the for the Creator as well as the followers because now they have the option and they can also see their favorite Creator onto different platforms uh they can see all the posts unified into one single place uh similarly we can take another example of uh e-commerce where uh where e-commerce store can use the unified profiles um and they can use that for better shopping experience uh now how they can do that um we can imagine a case where uh a user has shopped um or they have like some sort of uh history uh when it comes to shopping preferences they have a purchase history uh the payment informations are already saved on let's say on one of the other e-commerce stores so this information can be shared across different e-commerce Stores um and we can work on personalizing this experience for the user every time they visit any other e-commerce store so that uh you know the the purchase history is already retained um the shopping preferences is retained and uh the payment information is also retained where they can just have like a one thick checkout and all sorts of different features uh when they are even using like a new uh e-commerce store that they have never used before um so that's also very interesting use case um thirdly I think gaming is a big part of uh you know what um uh you know where we can see social applications really coming into the picture um like Gamers really try to maintain uh a single gaming profile within one different game they try to track their achievements uh they have their in-game assets uh they have a lot of friends they have they have a whole network of friends let's say with than one game um so this could be uh this could be unified uh by having a single unified gaming identity for for one particular gamer and they can take this uh to another game that they that they wish to play in future uh so that uh you know their uh their friends are again uh you know sort of um recommended the game uh when when the when the gamer decides to move to a new game uh they have their achievements history as well so uh yeah this also creates a lot of opportunities within the gaming ecosystem as well then comes the uh socialized Finance experiences so what do we mean by that uh there could be like multiple different things within the socialized Finance experiences uh there's the social defi aspect of things um where we can take a scenario of let's say uh there's a group of friends uh who come together and they form a a lending Circle uh and they built in built that on top of the Cyber 2 um they can they can all pull in certain amount of funds uh into the into the into the lending pool um and they can uh they can all finalize a certain agreement terms and whenever anyone from that Circle wants uh uh wants to take out a loan uh they can they can try to uh initiate that loan on a very low interest rate or uh you know are not relying on a lot of collateral because um because it's it's already a very close Circle everyone knows about the reputation of each each each and another um so there's very less risk involved in this scenario so social defi could be very huge um apart from that we can also look at um Community powered he yield farming where um uh a new defi project can propose a yield farming pool uh where community members can uh can vote to support the pool based on the social engagement metrics um and the key benefits of doing this is that the projects uh with the genuine background and uh the genuine social backing will receive more support and they will have more promotions done in a very trusted and a community-led environment uh so again this is uh you know very uh very good example of what can be achieved with the help of social defi uh then comes decentralized identity so what decentralized identity really means is uh that we can have reputation protocols on top of cyber L2 um and we can also have social wallets uh which can have the the uh the wallet reputation they can have history about the peer-to-peer transactions um they can when we talk about the social features they can also have the transactions linked to the comments or the likes that they have have done on some social platforms so this really creates uh an opportunity for um for uh for any of the network users um to create a reputation protocol they can they can uh Benchmark users depending on their reputation on other networks um and lastly we have the crowd fund uh crowdfunding on the fundraising platforms uh where again depending on the history of uh what certain user has built in the past um or you know some of their past projects or the team uh this the whole Community the whole social Community can sort of come together they can decide uh to fund a certain project uh and all of this can be done in a very trusted environment um so yeah all all of these examples come into uh the the social F aspects of things um I can think of a couple of more examples uh which I think could be very uh interesting for example we can build social credit scores uh for everyone which kind of aligns with the reputation protocol um so what would be the use of a social credit scores as I said before a user can uh a user with a high high credit score they can uh apply for loans and they can receive loans much easier than someone who has a bad reputation of not paying their loans or defaulting on the installments in the p um this this whole process can be done in a very decentralized way um you know and and and the and the banking service or the D5 protocol can decide uh to offer lower interest rates to to people who have better uh who have better credit scores um so yeah that could be another interesting example and I think lastly we can have uh I talked about transactions uh which are linked to let's say commenting or liking uh certain posts on social networks so let's say um a user decides to donate to a decentralized charity um and their uh their transaction of of this payment to the charity is public then others can also uh see that uh they can they comment on it uh they can like the donation and uh this increase this increases the transparency uh behind uh making donations uh to different NOS or different trusts uh so that you know like users don't have to worry about uh mishandling of the funds um or any any other sort of financial frauds because everything is sort of like done in the public eye um yeah uh then let's talk about the trust recommendation systems that we can build um uh and you know we can also look at it in a way that you know uh we can look at trust recommended uh trust recommendations or you can say trust reference um so an example for this would be uh like a restaurant uh let's say um we have let's imagine we have a we have a dab uh where users can share their restaurant recommendations um with other users currently we have centralized applications for example we have the Google Maps or we have yel previews uh where reviews can be easily influenced uh you know we can see a lot of fake users or maybe Bots who are coming and they are posting and there is no way to verify um uh the genuinity of those comments or of you know for for those reviews um but when we talk about uh you know this particular d uh because the the uh like we can have different things to make sure the the reviews are verified um like each users must link their reviews to a unique transaction which is verified uh on top of blockchain which reduces the risk of fake reviews so we know the genuine so we know that only genuine genuine users have posted reviews um again we can have reputation scores for all the restaurants let's say um and uh you know this again ties in with the reputation protocol uh so users can decide to visit the the restaurants with higher reputation scores um and yeah they can they can try to avoid the ones with lower reputation scores because again these metrics cannot be rigged in any way um then from the restaurants end I think we can look incentivizing uh honest reviews um users can get a chance to earn uh certain set of tokens uh for providing those helpful reviews uh and those accurate reviews um these tokens can be given out let's say by any of the ecosystem restaurants or maybe other users who found it useful um so yeah we can we can create this two-way channel uh for anyone who is posting these sort of reviews um uh yeah and lastly I think we can have a decentralized moderation where a community of users can flag certain reviews or certain ideas which were posted because uh that's a because rather than having a centralized way of moderating content we give power to the community to sort of moderate that content um so yeah this will overall improve the way we look at Google reviews or some of the other centralized applications we have got going on right now um just to go over you know what we think about uh referals um let's say there is a there's a marketplac app which can be built on Cyber L2 uh where users can recommend certain products to other users um as I said again we can have uh we can have the users verified with the help of blockchain you know we can make sure that the that the transaction which happened for them to uh buy a certain uh product was verified on blockchain um and then we can we can have Smart contracts on top of it where users can earn referral points or referral tokens uh if other users decide to purchase you know what they were trying to endorse uh so this can be a unique way of looking at monetizing uh someone's ideas or someone's recommendations uh and lastly I think this will really Empower users to have a very transparent influence uh these days we see a lot of influencers on centralized platforms like Instagram uh who are trying to promote uh certain products maybe they haven't used it in the past but they they are still trying to promote that so I think we can really uh make sure that the influence is happening in a very transparent way we can make sure that uh you know this this particular user has purchased the product they they have their skin in the game um and their affiliation is is is in a trusted manner uh basically um yeah and I think lastly uh you know within recommendations we can also look at uh Professional Services uh where um if someone wants to hire a new developer let's say uh they can have their skills verified uh they can have their work history verified uh this is very useful for the industry of Freelancers uh where their proof of work is sort of Justified and uh it is trusted because it's been uh hosted on blockchain in the past we can have reputation scores for developers as well to who understand what is their level of uh skills um like a like a really good developer will have really good skills uh they could be like a level 20 developer versus a level five or level six developer so it will give a chance for uh companies to understand the profiling of the candidates um yeah and lastly we have the collaborative Market peer-to-peer marketplaces our communities I think this really gives uh users to uh come together as a community and collaborate uh with different peer-to-peer exchanges we can look at uh trading of nfts we can look at Art music or any other events um and we can also look at like uh social communities which are shared around similar goals and you know for example like any of like a health health and wellness Community sort of like coming together um and enjoying all the social aspects which can be built on on Cyber heal too so yeah U I hope you know this really helped you understand uh why social is a is a very big big gap where not a lot of people are trying to build apps and you know these are some really good ideas where you know people can come together and uh really change the way uh current users are looking at uh uh at social networks uh on on web 2 versus web 3 um yeah then then let's move on to you know just to understand you know what cyber offers uh for the for the developers and for the community as uh in general um so firstly we are focused towards having a very frictionless ux uh through native account abstraction um with the help of cyber buil-in account abstraction and a seedless wallet we can have a very smooth user experience uh for anyone who's who's coming on board for the first time we can have social logins we can use pass Keys we can use a lot of things uh when it comes to wallet on boarding um then secondly we have the high performance infrastructure which is built on I da I've already sort of like touched on this before uh but just to sort of explain uh cyber is built on the hypers scale of I da uh which ensures that the uh the throughput uh is at a very low cost and at the same time the trooper is high so uh this this is a I I would say this is a very important uh requirement for building any sort of social applications because we could be looking at you know millions of users interacting with the network at a single time so it's important for a layer to uh Network to hold uh those sort of transactions and uh at lower costs uh so that it's it's not expensive for either the users or the builders to make sure that these tabs function in the right way um and again we are also focused towards uh security with the help of e3 staking that I offers um thirdly we have reduced risk with the help of decentralized infr infrastructure that we have built uh so cyers decentralized sequencers and verifiers will help and ensure that the network uh uh is safe there is no single uh uh fault point for the network which completely eliminates the risk of uh developers uh uh finding out that you know any any security risks are there behind their DBS uh so all in all I think can offer a very secured environment for applications to build and scale um then we have uh the the point that you know cyber is very super aligned with the with the op stack uh a lot of layer to developers who have interacted with any other op stack uh Layer Two uh they are familiar with the op stack in general um and that's that's how Cy is built it's built with open source optimism stock um and future proofing for for anyone's app um is is is make sure because uh we have made it interoperable with the help of other evm change as well um and then we can talk about like the native yield uh for bridging assets cyber offers a native yield for bridged assets uh through Revenue sharing B uh and we are offering additional incentives on top of it we have reward layers so all of this is uh again great for the community um and last we have dual staking uh which is a very interesting Concepts I concept I must say because uh dual staking offers uh any new bootstrapping proof of State protocol uh to maintain the reputation uh because any new chain which is cominging up uh may have a risk of uh their token being very volatile uh so a lot of community can so so a lot of times Community might feel that you know there's a lot of risk in involved uh behind purchasing token of a new chain um but with the help of dual staking it simplifies that whole process because uh instead instead of uh uh instead of requiring stakers to hold a new volatile token they can stake their e for example into a network uh alongside of uh uh they can stti uh they can STI eth onto the network alongside of the existing token which could be volatile so because of this dual staking it mitigates the risk of a protocol death spiraling basically um uh because of any other security effects or any other uh effects or uh rumors or anything like that within the community so it offers a lot of security in general so it's a very very interesting concept um yeah so this was this was my talk uh I tried to cover uh the basics of cyber to you know why you should be interested uh in building on Cyber and what could be the possible use cases you can sort of try to uh build on Cyber um if you'd like to get in touch my name is Tran BW I'm def at Cyber uh you can find me on on X at zerx panel uh if you want to get in touch with me or the or the developer team in general at Cyber feel free to email us at developer cyber.com um and yeah before I finish off I would also like to share um our uh our upcoming hackathon we are doing um uh a collaboration with backdrop uh build uh where we are offering different bounties for developers we have also uh concluded the first round of ecosystem grants that we do uh so feel free to check that out on our website as well um and yeah we are just trying to promote Developers to uh build on Cyber as much as possible and we are here to support everyone who wishes to build on Cyber um yeah so this is uh the page where we sort of summarize everything related to grounds um so you will find all of these links on the website so feel free to go over that if you have any questions feel free to reach out to me um yeah thank you everyone again uh for attending the talk if you have any questions I'm happy to chat after after the after the session thank you prel so do we have any questions no I think there is no question as of now thank you very much see you bye-bye thank you and right now we have a lunch break for 1 hour and we uh welcome you to be back here at 2 p.m. [Music] hey [Music] he hey he [Music] [Music] he [Music] hey [Music] he oh [Music] oh [Music] [Music] oh he [Music] for [Music] hey [Music] he he [Music] he he [Music] he he oh oh [Music] oh [Music] oh [Music] for [Music] hey [Music] you [Music] he [Music] he [Music] he [Music] he [Music] he for [Music] oh [Music] oh [Music] oh [Music] oh [Music] hey [Music] he hey [Music] he [Music] he [Music] hey hello everyone we uh welcome you to come back to lecture hall because we will start our next uh presentation in 5 minute [Music] he [Music] oh [Music] oh [Music] oh oh [Music] oh [Music] hey everyone we encourage you to come back to lecture hall because we start our next presentation in 1 minute good last for thise I'm honored to introduce you to our next speaker whose name is Omar and he works as a developer Advocate engineer at Stark net foundation and the topic is starnet is ethereum answer to salana hello can you can you hear me yeah we can hear and see you and the presentation nice I can see myself first of all I want to apologize for not being in person there H I've been looking at the photos I've been looking at the beautiful scenario you have there all the amazing planation that you have done so I am feeling such a lot of f for not being there and well I want to apologize for that and also thank you for for for being person here even though I am not I am not in there with you but believe me I am I am missing it up I am I I am feeling bad for this so to begin Let's uh take a minute to celebrate all the amazing things that happened to to the them layer TOS in the in the last couple of of months ER we finally got transactions that are very very very low in terms of fees but I mean this is something huge I I think we should talk more about this ER sometimes we have got transactions that are cheaper than Solana considering Solana is well consider less secure than ethereum right so this is an amazing amazing moment for for all the the layer to co system and it's something that we we need to celebrate and I'm also happy to say that star is now the the the layer two with the lowest fees and you can look at this in in I don't remember exactly that that's grow the pie in grow the p you can see that St is the layer two with the lowest fees and we're finally finally realizing the promise of zero knowledge so I'm very very happy about this and my talk today is start thisum answers to Solana what this means is scalability is lower Feast for for for me it means three things lower Feast greater speed and a canos struction and this is stuff that Solana has that has allow Sol to grow hugely in the in the in the blockchain Eos system and we all know this and Sola has done amazing things and I think we can learn a lot from this so okay so let's go with this please feel free to ask me any questions at the end I will be happy to to answer them okay so today we're going to do three things first we're going to explore explore the reasons behind Solana sucess second we'll learn from Solana's strategy and finally I am going to argument why started this eum's answer to Solana so let's go with the first part let's explore why Solana is successful and first of all they got a lot of created addresses as you can see it's h it's one of the blockchains that is growing is growing a lot a lot of people are getting to Solana and actually after the mcoin Mania we have seen more and more people coming into Solana so so this is this is interesting but more than that I am interested in this I don't know if you're aware of this maybe C can you can you uh put your hand up please if you let me see if if you can see my hands okay put your hand up please if you have used Solana before okay ptic no one only one person I can see at least so yes because that we are ethereum people right with the conference is called it keep right but Sol has some very cool things going on for example let's talk about ER the partnership with Shopify for example or the partnership with Visa or stuff like in real life H payments for example you you got a you can put a camera in your car and you can record what is happening around you and then you will earn some some tokens or the the infamous or famous I don't know how you want to call it cell phone the Solana the Solana phone and and basically all of this is powered by account instruction low fees and and high speeds and they and they they have this Moto this Solana Community has this motto that is only in Solana that's how they call it only in Solan and and it's true it's it's PR true at least they can call it not in ethereum right until now not for long so now let's learn about Sol's strategy how how do they manage to to get this amazing H well these applications that make sense and of course we're talking outside of of the technology of Solana outside of that they have a lot of issues in the technology they are considered not that decentralized so they got issues right but I want to focus on what is good in Sol so so so for me the reason they are very goods is that they can provide and I will cite this I will quote this provide an opportunity for the centralized applications to compete and this is practically the topic my the topic of my talk today Solana Solana's strategy is to provide an opportunity for the centralist applications to compete to compete against who against the web two companies against the spotifi of the world against the op open a eyes of the world who are actually the real I don't want to call it enemy but the real the real competitor to web three companies it's not that unisoft is competing again one inch or something like that it is more like we are competing against Banks we're competing against Visa we're competing against Spotify and these are formidable formid formidable opponents so it's it's not easy for us so in Solana you can have Solana basically scale and Solana is interesting because of two things sorry because of three things native account stru cheap and fast transactions those three things are the the key for salana if if we can have this stuff inside ethereum then it it won't it will not longer be only in Solan okay and again the the the moral here the the main message here is we need to provide the central applications in ethereum that tools to compete against web to companies it is crucial without this they will be losing and and of course whenever a company inside of Sana loses against for example Spotify then it's not good for the for the overall do ecosystem even though they are from another blockchain with another EOS with another way of thinking we need to search for self custody so that is I think for me for me at least ethereum and and the blockchain is about this self custody of my my phone self custody of whatever I have of my identity whatever you want self custody so we need Solana to to to conquer these different markets but we also of course we prefer ethereum to conquer these markets but again we need to provide these companies the web the web three companies the capacity to be able to go out there in the world and compete again Instagram against Twitter against Spotify which is again not easy at all not easy at all so let's go to some to some Er actual cases who of you knows audiio can can you please let me know who who knows audios here okay I can see one hand in there okay okay okay so this is to me again because I think we need to know about all this even we from interesting to me that a lot of people don't know about audiio so aios I saw post from H sorry for for the music maybe it was playing I don't know but ER so so I I saw a post on Twitter that says that said who who what what application do you think that is the most successful application in Solana and most people talk about aios so what is audiio aiio you can you can you can think of it like a like a Spotify that provides more transparency for the for the for the artist and it gives some tokens and fees for the artist so you can call it like an ethical Spotify but but but a lot of people again don't know about audios and they are facing a huge battle against against Spotify who is their main competitor of Spotify they are on Solana and well so they were actually before before being in Solana they were on the evm they were building on the virtual machine and then they decided okay no let's get out of here why because we need something cheap fast and and decentralized if possible right so they went into Solana a couple years ago and you can see this this small post from from March 10 of this year it says the the 300 the 383 million crypto project that is competing with Spotify so again these guys are facing a huge battle a huge battle we want them to win because they are providing even though they are in Solana they are providing something valuable for the world something that's Spotify has been criticized a lot for but they want to provide to to to to artists right so again we need something cheap fast and operational right H unfortunately Spotify so unfortunately ER the theut machine wasn't ready for for that at the moment but I would argue that we are not ready thanks to starnet and of course you can talk about other layer TOS but I will I will tell you why I think it's started the way to go uh okay so so let's go to to the main reasons of why the reasons that I mentioned before I already mentioned it several times but let's go more into details here so why can only you can only do these kind of things like audio in Solana because account is number one ver ux and for B ux you need a good account you need native account account struction so has always had account of stru and this is something that we don't talk a lot about Solana has always had account structure okay account ruction is not optional without without obstruction we cannot create an audence without canstruction we cannot compete against Twitter we cannot compete against Instagram and construction is crucial if we don't have it we can forget about H taking eum to the masses really second well second and third point they are they have fast and low transactions okay H but now as you can see Solana is getting a little bit it's getting expensive and expensive more more and more expensive and and it started is getting down and down on fees so we have had days when making a transaction in startet is cheaper than in Solana so I I want to I want this to sink in because Solana has always said oh ethereum is very expensive you go to a Solana conference they will always tell you that but this is no longer true because start is ethereum and you can see already that we can have transactions that are lower in fees than Solana and this will only only increase with time and with users so I expect I don't know maybe next year once volution is released on starnet and we can talk about that if you want but once once Vol is releasing started I think that we will always have lower transaction fees than Solan and and please mark my words so so so then Sol will lose what makes them special right low fees and also in St we're working to get at least 1,000 transactions in in transactions per second so again they will lose the the the low Fe and the fast transactions H Advantage Plus St has always had a kind of struction NY and I I would argue that even that the construction the construction model in stet is the one that that ethereum has developed and I think it's better than solanas so well this is my my opinion so so again we're we're reaching a point where where actually ethereum could be I don't know better in everything better in everything than Solana and and you can see for example that Solana is losing a lot of developers throughout time Solana has in one year they have Lo lost almost onethird of their developers so so developers are getting out of Solana and developers are getting into star okay because why because again the canstruction the security provided by ethereum and the and and low low low transactions fees and fast and Fast H transactions so as you can see again start is growing growing growing and so is getting down and down and down and again stet is ethereum so stet ethereum is something I want to repeat a lot whatever started gets a transaction practically e gets also a transaction so now the question here that I want to to to to leave with you is can we offer the best of web to user experience in web3 can we offer the capacity to log in in Instagram yes can we offer the capacity to log in in Instagram but also in web free can we offer the capacity to H make a fintech b bank account Bing web tree listen listen to this this is this is something very this this this is not that intuitive this is not that easy to to notice can we offer this the the the the the the answer is no the answer is no without account structure without native account struction cannot do it so this takes me to the third point of that of my talk that is why started CC I've been talking about this all this time but and this this was actually a meme that came out like elen s mentioned in January started is aners to salana which is the name of my of my talk today and yes I I agree and and and well you know Benjamin Franklin even said so right e values and security with the power and speed of starnet it's what Sol I wishes it could be again remember etherum values and security but with the with the speed power construction of a stet it's something I mean this is to me at least technologically speaking this will left Solana it will make ethereum better at Solana in everything in everything in everything everything so so this is an amazing point for us and and we also believe that only started can take on SOL like there are no other layer tools with this loow Fe first of all second there are layer twos that have that are faster than Star right now but this will this will change very soon and and the third part is that no other Layer Two has an accru model natively applied as advanced as a stet when I say Advanced is that we have been working on this stuff since already four years ago we have been working with the biggest Minds in the in the the ecosystem for this I mean we have been following what what what the guidelines by made by by ethereum but also we have been working with people in ethereum Foundation people in open seing people inside the star war so big minds are debating what is the account struction the best account struction model and that is the one that is being used in stet so in other words stet is the is the is the peak of the spear in these terms account stru is is like is still kind of being explored like how can we improve account stru and start is the way to go in that sense and you can know it because if you have used starnet you have used the wallets in starnet you can see that they use account structure natively beautifully beautifully I mean for example it was released Rec recently that Bravos and Argent can now use an a ler to to sign transactions in two Factor authentication what does this mean is that you can have really really you can have something really really secure ER with you all the time like I mean like a baros wallet by itself on an an Argent wallet by itself is more secure than having a ler and this is true this is true because you can have three Factor authentication in your wallet so I remember there was a Brazilian guy it was he was a well he's a YouTuber kind of famous YouTuber and he he was making a stream and this a very very very sad story but but so he was making a stream and then he accident show a a show scream of a file a dxt file where he had all the all the SE phrases for for his his wallets and the poor guy only show it for half a second and then in two minutes everything was rain already from all his wallets and the guy was live on streaming and he was very sad he was very depressed but then he he realized that there was a wallet that wasn't wasn't Rin which one the Bravos one why because in Bravos it is not enough for the hacker to have your SE for they also need to have your finger for you to sign the transaction so so so this guy lost everything except from his Bravos wallet and he was very interesting setting that and this is true if you have two Factor authentication set up on braavos or Argent ER then it is not enough for people to get to for person to get your SE for and this is not trivial this is not trivial this is this is game changer really and soon you won't even need a SE for we can we can advance in the blockchain security without a SE for and this is what we want again we want to make it a Cy as possible to log in in in your in in a blockchain power application as if you loging in Instagram this is not simple and we have been working in in in ethereum for almost 10 years and we haven't had this yet it's been almost 10 years that we haven't had this but we will get it very well we already have it in the start actually but we we just wanted to to be more socialized so there's people that mention for example this is a slide that I stole from margin and yeah started is a blue ocean in the L to copcut copycats landscape I know this this sounds kind of aggressive right but we got a lot of zero knowledge evvms all over the place we we got a lot of of layer tools that are emulating the evm and this is great but we don't believe that the evm is the way to do it why because in the evm you cannot have a straction you cannot have native account instruction if you're trying to emulate the evm you will get the good things about the evm like for example using solidity but you will also get the bad things of the evm like for example not not not being able to to have potion or not being able to have counstruction at a native at a native level so so the E is not perfect and we all know this and so so yes and we don't we don't we we we we we don't care I was talking with some friends yesterday and I was telling them like we don't care and we do what what we believe is the best thing to scale ethereum we have a goal scale ethereum with no Fe fast transactions and account native account struction well that's what we want to do and we don't care if it if it deviates from the from the ter machine and it's okay what we care is about the Skilling eum and the EDM is not a it's not a synonym for ethereum the evm is something apart from the values of ethereum it's something else and and we care about ethereum not not DM H and let me let me show you now so so so before we saw a case study for we we saw case study for for for for a s application called audios now who of you can you raise your hand please who of you know about s sare none wow this is amazing okay okay okay this is well is not amazing it is it makes sense it makes sense why because so if you go into YouTube If you go into Google and look for sorare sare for me for me sare is the most successful blockchain company company in the world but the interesting thing is that they don't advertise the themselves as a blockchain company please go and look for for sare in Google for me is the most successful blockchain company so these folks what they do is a fantasy game for soccer for for baseball for basketball it's it's a fantasy game you basically make bets and you buy you buy your nfts that are cards from the players but the interesting thing is that they don't call it nft they just call it a cart they never said if you go to the web page they never mention that they are a blockchain company they never mention the word blockchain they never mention the word starnet they never mention the word nft no they for them they use the blockchain technology to provide self custody to the users but their users don't care about blockchain that's why you don't know s what what I bet if you go with people out in the street there there a a a highl hood that you will find people that know s and use it every day because it has million of users and these guys you know we we were in a in a bare Market recently right the prices were down maybe we are still in the bare Market I don't know but prices are down right do you think sare cares about the prices the answer is no they don't care because the users don't care the guy that is buying a a a car from Messi doesn't care about the price of of ethereum what this guy cares is about playing their game and that's it okay so so so these guys are practically I won't say completely Bo they are practically indifferent to the prices of the of the market which is amazing and this is what we need to Aspire to we cannot be dependent on the prices all the time we cannot make sure as an industry unless we get independence from the price for example do you think that a that a that a developer will stop using Amazon web services just because the Amazon stocks H got down of course not they use Amazon web services because it's useful they can use it for something it's useful so we want blockchain to be useful for entrepreneurs to create companies that are not blockchain companies they are actual individual facing companies just as audios just as sare look at that you don't know sare take a look at sare please you know sare some of you don't know audios and these to me are some of maybe maybe top three most successful H blockchain companies in the world but the interesting thing is that they don't call themselves a blockchain company so that's what we want and we cannot get it unless we got low transaction Fe fast transactions and Native account instruction if actually please go into s and create an account and you will understand what I mean what I'm telling you that this this is what we need why because you never notice the blockchain part unless you go a little bit deeper into you will find that you get an an ethereum address assigned to you and that you are owner of all your money of course but ER but unless you do that you will notice that you are using the blockchain technology so it's amazing your parents can use it no no worries your your grandma can use it and again same story as sodio so rare was on the evm so rare was already in the evm but H the R change to to a starx which is a a Star Wars solution that is a well now the future is a stet but starx uses the same basically the same technology as a stark net which is also implemented by starware why because again cost efficiency user experience and robot security because again anything related with the starets or starings is also related with the them okay the fact that we don't use the evm it doesn't matter what matters here is that we offer in the theum level security because we are using it right so again these these applications that actually need to reach people out in the streets they don't use the evm they don't use the evm and yeah so it's been it's been it's been a very bad year for last year last year was very bad for Developers for the developer ecosystem in blockchain we got a lot of people live in the blockchain ecosystem this is not good of course this is very very bad H we we lost developers all over the place from ethereum to P to polygon to optimism whatever you mention so this is not good we are losing developers because of the bare Market unless you have something like starnet starnet is actually growing in number of developers why because what I have mentioned all over all day long the the capacity the technology to actually build something like srare or like AOS or applications that actually can face the the the individual out in the streets so start is the only major blockchain that is growing in number of developers this is not easy thing to to mention Eh this not we have around 40% while all other blockchains have actually decreased so so so I know the blockchain ecosystem is is H is going through a bad phase but in startet we want to be here for the next 50 years at least so that's why we're focusing on building stuff the fundamentals to allow entrepreneurs and Builders to build actually the de centralized future now you might be asking yourself how can how can if I want to to get into star if you're interested please H we have a you can scard this QR code this this is basically a a boot cam it's a it's a free boot Cam that is also on YouTube that you can see and and learn all about the starnet technology everything that that relates with starnet you can learn it from here so feel free to go there or or or if you have any questions please let me know in telegram just write me a message also we're looking always we're looking for open source development ERS and we paid we PID this these open source developers so if you are an open source developer or Builder and want to earn some resources and also learn a lot get into blockchain and build the the centralized future please go into only do and you will be able to see there a lot of a lot of uh repos that are asking for contributors and and you can find find your way into the star ecosystem this way I know a lot of developers that actually got got a job uh from contributing to madada for example in starnet or maybe they found their next co-founder in in in in only dust so so this is the way to go to go this is like the the entrance to the blockchain ecosystem in the starnet and and I invite you to to check it out and again let me know in Twitter this is my Twitter espel Omar so please go write me whatever you need I'm here to help you it's also my website and well I didn't introduce myself before but it's a pleasure being here again I apologize for not being there in person it's a great miss for me I have always wanted to to to go to Ukraine so for me it's been a a it's been a big shame but well again my name is Omar spel I work at the St Foundation before I was in Star War and before that I was in machine learning in hogging face this is my telegram feel free please to ping me whenever you want and for whatever you need and thank you very much that is my that is my talk I don't know if is there time for for for questions we have time for questions so please raise your hand hand if you have any questions we have time but we don't have questions so thank you very much for for being with us have a nice day no worries thank you very much have a nice day our next speaker will join me on the stage so this is Benjamin algorithm engineer from circles and he will tell us um about Circle B Community voting and prediction markets with circles thank you very much um well first thank you to organizers participants also online and uh offline of course um for making a great event and it's really an honor to be here back in Kiev um always had a special place for me over the past 10 years um so it's really really nice to to be presenting here um Circle your bets Community V and prediction markets with circles it's a bit of a cryptic title um but I want to because it's a hackaton talk I it's divided into two parts one I'll try to explain circles and then I want to share ideas of what we could build with circles um and circles itself is a social money we'll try to unpack that in next few slides um my name is Ben I uh try to help build circles um you can reach me this is my handle basically everywhere um and so maybe three parts so first I'll just try to explain a little bit what is circles about um and try to Define by construction this idea of a social money and then I think it's interesting to look at what could these properties of a social money do for decentralized governance um decentralized governance in my mind um is a special case of a long-standing interest um Collective sense making we often think about governance as collective decision- making but I think it's under talked about that we before we can make decisions together we should try to see the same problems or understand who sees what problems because otherwise we're talking next to each other and it doesn't really make sense to talk about Collective decision- making and and and my background is a theoretical physicist so like trying to make sense of the world has always been my shtick I think um although over the past years I don't think people have often seen me talk about this but it's actually been the driving force towards where I want to get to and so this is one of the first times I'm actively talking about this um right and then if I have time at the end like uh some ideas of like specifically if if we would think about um sense making for an information information ecosystem as as a collective uh common good then then I'll try to sketch some ideas there um again want to remind hackers that we have two open ended Bounty tracks so one is if you have ideas of how to integrate circles into basically anything as long as it's like value aligned we'd be super happy to see and support that um and then specifically for the stock trying to Kickstart this idea of using circles for uh for the common good for governing the common good if you have IDs proposals um we'd also be super interested to hear I'll come find me this is a GitHub where I've like detailed a little bit more how to get started Etc hopefully you've already seen this if you're interested um otherwise it's not too late um yeah so anyway back to the basics so what what is circles um it's of course like a vision uh it's it's quite a utopian project but it's also an implementation and so I'll try to talk a little bit more about the implementation right now um and so just to help you construct an image um the core value I think circles tries to bring is to bring civil resistance proof of personhood to uh a money to to a blockchain ecosystem um there's obviously plenty of attempts and and and more recently we have actually really good attempts like ZK passports as a general category is really super interesting um the ability to take already existing Registries by governments and and derive proofs from that is is a very strong uh and privacy preserving way to to to create proof of personhood but the issue is one I mean the most important issue not all people have passports um and then secondarily but also important like we're trying to build native systems for for cyberspace 4 and and we shouldn't rely on on government documents to to support that and so with circles rather than having a top down approach it's it's very much a Bottoms Up mechanism so anyone can register in circles we don't ask any kyc there's no checks you can create 100 accounts you can create a thousand accounts um make as many as you want uh so the protocol itself is agnostic about whether people are civil or not and instead of trying to answer this as a global question who what is the registry of all authentic humans on the network we try to make this a local question so like from my perspective How likely is it that another account that I actually don't know is Cil or not um and so what we didn't ask you to do is you because actually locally this is a very easy question to answer I can know people in real life and I can connect their account and then I can assert that from my perspective they're likely not siil and I will trust them as such and so what we create is a social graph where I keep up the the the the connections of the accounts that I think are trustworthy um and if everyone does this then we construct from that an emergent property of local soft simple resistance um but how does this relate to a money because it's kind of weird so so the way to think about this as circles is that it's actually locally defined over this social graph everyone has their own circles and there by start non fungible and so that's weird because we want money to be fungible but it rather gets its fungibility by construction because if we trust each other then what we're also telling the protocol is that our tokens are one to one fungible and so now you have a transitive property over this original social graph you can construct a flow graph over which circles can flow from one location uh to to the other and so the question becomes not like uh are Euros fungible is every Euro bank note that I have equal value to any other um it instead becomes this uh spend ability problem I might have circles but can I spend the circles that I have to some other entity um this is a bit to wrap your head around um but happy to to talk more um yeah sorry maybe this was a bit technical but I think it's good to try to like establish some some mental picture of of the mechanics and so a second aspect of money is the issuance we we often think about issuance in blockchain projects um circles has quite a radical one namely that any account again we don't know if they are Cil or not but any account any person that says I am a person receives one Circle per hour unconditionally and so the Crux of this is again like the question is are those circles spendable or not and so that's where you get the soft Cil resistance you might have as many accounts as you want but if you're not connected in the social graph and those flow edges they have capacities that you can drain so your your spend ability will be limited to how well you can convince people that your account is uh authentic and so what this gives you as a bit of a behavioral metric or or or model is that circles behave like water if you don't trust anyone then effectively it's frozen your circles are stuck in place you have no flow edges of where they can go and on the opposite end if you trust carelessly if you just go on telegram channels and anyone that tells you they're your best friend you trust them you will still have the same circles balance but you will find that it will very quickly be swapped out uh with unsp tokens because any attacker that now can reach you will just swap your spendable tokens for their Cil unsp tokens and so you don't don't want to be careless about who you trust but instead if you meet people in real life and you have no reason to assume that they're malicious you can go ahead and trust them and then circles flows like water so it's one model to think about the behavior of of of circles and so what we construct with that is this uh this graph uh where people are situated on specific places they actually have balances of all different people because the circles will spread around uh and then now the question of transacting is a question of finding a flow path over this graph to to the other person and where you can spend your circles um to come back to this issuance question if we would just linearly issue uh 8,700 something circles per year to every person we'd have a linear function it would be uncapped it's not that interesting because first of all we want to have a unit of account um like it should be a fair issuance but it shouldn't just be unlimited and so to uh compensate that circles are actually temporally discounted so they will disappear from your balance at 7% per year this is a magic number um but it's tuned to sort of human time scales so rather than like unlimited ability to Mint you you basically have this stable value stable point of 125,000 circles that any any person any account can maximally mint so the total Max Supply is the number of people that registered uh times this 125,000 but this will grow over time so rather than a linear increase you you will actually ASM toote out and then if you stop minting you only have this demarrage term uh and so your these these tokens will disappear again from the system and so what this also gives you is an effective tax rate on circles no one really likes taxes but this is kind of a funny tax because has a negative tax the less tokens you have the faster you get them because 7% on zero is zero and you only have a linear one Circle per hour minting that you get to issue yourself um and so your wallet balance will grow but as it grows that 7% also grows and so we reach this stable point of 125,000 circles um where you effectively have like 0% tax you don't have a negative tax where you get new circles but you so don't have a positive tax where you uh lose circles but then if you earn more you you will gradually start getting ever so slightly tax and really really ever so slightly um but what's interesting to not is if you're like a company or an or organization or or an AI or a bot you don't get to Mint your own circles and so you only have this 7% tax so anything that you do earn from other people is effectively flat taxed at 7% um maybe actually let me go back I want to maybe say something here still um so what we're working towards now uh I mean many things but trying to provide euro dollar price points for uh your circles and so this also is expected to equilibrate so maybe my circles are worth less or more than someone else's but if we're closely connected and we'll we'll go further into this uh how um like the expectation is that Arbitrage can can can level that price point as well and so yeah I mean I don't I this was not planned in my talk so I'll keep it short um like my expectation is at least that that this will form domain walls between different regions um because uh obviously it's not going to equ equilibrate to to like one Global price point um anyway sorry I'll if you have questions like talk to me afterwards um and then the third part that that I want to discuss with circles today is is this new native property that we wanted to build into the protocol namely if we imagine that we have this substrate of circles over a social graph um that's really not enough structure we want to create more structure and so groups are a way to add structure to to this base layer to this base substrate namely you can create a group and you can say that you trust certain circles wherever they are and then they can form collateral that can get minted into your new group currency so basically you can turn my personal B circles into uh some commu Community C currency so for example let's say e KF would start a community currency for everyone who's participating online offline I would be able to then because we've connected we be able to say Ben circles and uh Cy love circles uh um like and others they can all be relabeled effectively as e keyf tokens but I think what's really interesting is that you can put a condition on that so it's not I mean you can put that condition as like however much you want any time you want it but you could also put conditions on proof of participation like maybe for the hours of being present is the hours of the amount of circles that you can mint and so there's sort of a reputational um but but more generally a proof of part participation that you can can experiment with when you're building these Community currencies um other IDs like but you can do whatever are like for example if you hold certain po pups or uh or friends of friends you can expand this over the social graph or or like I said relative to like participation in real life events I think is particularly one that I'm interested in um anyway to to give you back a bit of structure structur in the talk so I tried to explain what circles was as a social money and to me I think there's these three properties that I would Now define as as uh as properties of a social money namely it needs to have some soft Cil resistance um yeah otherwise it's really nothing to do with a social fabric um ideally it has some Fair issuance over people but I think it's often under considered the issuance over time um like we are here now but ideally I want to build software that lasts 10 years 10 years 20 years 30 years and a token that spikes now or crashes Now is really not as interesting as a token that is equally uh fair to people that are born in 10 years or born in 20 years and come later to this game I I I find it very surprising that we want to like build protocols on on tokens that are issued at a specific point in time um so yeah anyway that's a little bad peeve I guess um and then I was thinking about this last night I I think I'm old enough or too old and so I come up with my own words this is this is not a word but it's the best that I have sort of to describe this third property um I think of as inter cohesive so if we if you can form Community currencies and they promote cohesion within your community because they're all built on the same sub straight there's also the possibility for people to be part of many communities and so there's strong overlap and it's also very easy to move and uh funds between these communities and so so increasing cohesion between communities I think is is equally important as cohesion within the community itself uh and and so that that's that's that's however you want to achieve that but like with circles we try to achieve this because you have this underlying uh sub straight definition of one Circle per hour per person and any group currency is equally one to one mapped to um to that anyway um that's the stuff we're building now I want to switch to where I'm probably on 10 I um but the things I do care about and and these are more invitations uh and idas for um what you could do with circles um and so I already talked a little bit about this in in um in the talk I think of governance as two parts sense making and decision making uh and and uh and I I I have to credit vitalic here like he writes wonderful uh both overviews and and new ideas over the years and so so a few years ago 2021 he wrote this blog post um how do we move Beyond coin voting and the main um problem that he highlights is right now and I think to this day even though the post is a bit old we we do consider coin voting largely credibly neutral but one of the weakness or some of the weaknesses that that you could reason about it has um might be patched over by the fact that right now most coins have just large holders that actually do coordinate very tightly with each other and so plausible attacks for coin voting aren't actually uh executable because it's just a small group of people with most of the coins uh and if we if we really want to think about like how do we scale this type of technology to wider groups of people which would be kind at Point like how do we use and build better algorithms to coordinate among ourselves even if we don't know the people tightly um we we do need to take this serious and so so the ideation here and and and and I think the proposal for for uh that I wanted to like seed plant a seed for is that this idea of social money whether it's circles or or anything in that category um might have really nice properties to to try to move beyond beyond Co coin voting um I'm I'm going to assume most people know about these terms I will try to summarize them again but again like I'm on T ice I probably mispe um correct me afterwards um so quadratic voting quadratic funding and then there's improvements to that and um it does require uh softs or Cil resistance proof of personhood um the to to to quickly summarize the idea is that your one coin doesn't give you one vott rather it gives you the square root of your one coin so it's a different way of measuring how much you you can vote but if you do not have any Cil resistance uh then I'm just a whale I'm going to distribute my funds over many accounts and they look as if they were all plenty of people making small donations where it's really me making all the donations so so you need to have some soft resistance and circles as I explained sort of is starting from that point how do how do we build that inherently into the money itself um a second aspect here I think is fair issuance like if I only have a small amount of coins relative to other players there's not that much of an incentive for me to even bother spend my time to try to vote but if there is a more fair distribution of these coins to vote with uh even though they're limited like you don't have an unlimited amount that you can allocate just across wherever you want um then then that makes the like what's the expression like equalizes the stakes across the table or something that's not the expression I was looking for anyway moving on um I think like so so actually uh the link to the blog post is below um those four points are four that I highlighted from it um I I recommend you to reread it if it's not fresh in your mind or uh new to you um this idea of retroactive funding also optimism has like pioneered this uh the idea is that like if you start a new project you can issue project tokens uh people can earn them by participating or if someone's enthusiastic for your project already buy them and then afterwards if something has proven to be very good some larger fund with their own governance can buy up these tokens to reward the ones that that that moved this forward and so Community currencies are very easy to create and they're effectively project tokens like whether you earn them through participation as I mentioned or you're excited about project or work people are doing you you can go and purchase them and then um other funds could later look back evaluate and see how valuable those efforts were um circles if if if I for for a moment I take a step back like the whole inspiration for circles is has grown out of this uh uh idea of complement currencies we are very used to having a single uh dollar or Euro and I not going to pronounce the Ukrainian uh currency because I'll mess it up um but actually it is very successful to have complimentary local currencies compared to more wider uh Global Currency um many examples Switzerland uh less known but actually also benefit Ed a lot from from having that um and so coming back to to to the topic of the talk like uh one one way to to be more secure with coin voting is to use it more as signaling to not have it as a binding uh mechanism for which any proposal that gets voted gets executed but rather as uh to to substantiate any proposals that the core team might might do for in in this case I'm thinking about uh software and protocol upgrades and and decision governance you you could use your wider Community to signal and and and execute support because often projects already have their own currency or their own coin and so circles is a very easily bootstrapped complimentary currency to to the projects already inherent currency that you could use for for signaling and then lastly because none of these Solutions like are an end all um forking is just a very important mechanism that we should always try to preserve um you can build groups to be forkable and as I explained earlier with this madeup word of inter cohesiveness um they're also just highly likely so even before forking you you could just like move with your feet and start competiting uh projects sorry competing projects um I don't know how I'm doing on time okay uh I have this small side remark so so I said like circles is at least equally a vision as much as an implementation um and so this side remark is on the implementation um it's all nice to say like how do you get uh like it's easy to make Community circles but really we want them to have value as well and so how how do you bootstrap this and so specifically circles are contracts on nois chain and nosis chain um is run by validators and then there's two earning mechanisms validators earn gno and circles get issued to to people but validators are people or at least we want them to be as much as possible also with distributed staking moving forward it hopefully becomes more plausible for more people um to to uh to do home staking and especially distributed to make it easier to not put have this bigger liability um this is this is a pet this this is important for nosis uh specifically so it's a bit of a side remark but nosis really wants to push for distributed staking and help um the chain be easily run by people but anyway you you basically what I wanted to say here I'm making this too long for a side remark you earn both sides of a liquidity pool like if you run the chain you earn gono and if you are active in communities you earn those Community tokens so you basically have free liquidity that you can put if people use it you earn fees so you can hopefully offset some of your costs of running the actual chain and you you have some bootstrap price Discovery for your community plus as sort of the first stack slide like you own the whole stack of your uh infrastructure of your own Community money anyway end of slide remark um yeah lastly I want to share some maybe crazy ideas but like uh for how how you could make this more concrete and so applications are still very very wide but like one I think of interest to me at least um but more widely is is I would like to think more often of the information ecosystem we have as a common good and how do we govern this how do do we make sense of it uh and can we apply some of these tools that we're building for for that uh use case um so to make this less cryptic like how do we do a better job at like misinformation and disinformation um yeah I guess we're on the same page um again uh yeah vitalic has good ideas So Below last year he he he shared this idea that um Twitter actually or X um has these Community notes where you can uh where some Matrix factorization algorithm effectively for a very limited number of people decides whether a community note like is this post helpful misinformed or whatever um should it be shown on everyone's feed or not that this is missing information and I'll get to that but but this was a bit the the inspiring thought for for these four points um so if if you have uh if you would use Community circles your own Community circles to to vote on posts to then allocate attention of your community um I think that's a like that's Mo probably the most important point that I want to make maybe in this whole talk like my summarization is we we currently have this epileptic information system globally we have this idea that it's a very good thing that if someone tweets something and some random centralized algorithm decides it should be spread that it like instantly appears on everyone's feet which if that happens in your brain you're like shivering on the floor in spasms is called epilepsy and I think it's not a bad analogy for like the information ecosystem we have right now like a very natural and very healthy way of propagating information is to propagate it at slower speeds over a fabric and see whether it's worth while to keep propagating it um and so you could do this or you could imagine this with with quadratic voting like you need to put skin in the game if you think a post is valuable enough to propagate it forward or to keep propagating it and then you get this this this automatic feature backwards because people have had to put skin in the game you also can trace it back and you get a Providence trace and you can start calculating a likelihood of did this information actually originate in reality like was it grounded somewhere in plausibly non- civil accounts uh and and what is that likelihood or is this just AI generated um so I think both that forward direction of propagation and then the ability to look back at it uh ideally all of this is in zero knowledge uh but right now all of this is just public on chain well have to get all of your contributions to to move forward anyway end of front um but yeah I I think that's that's that's that's yeah one of the more important ideas like we really need to get away from the idea that that information should just like wildly propagate because some algorithm tells people to look at this um and so if you just take the next logical step like you have quadratic voting if you now have funds to to you you can start thinking about citizen journalism where people locally have an incentive to come together and Report um you can take this one step further and think about retroactive funding um citizen journalism is this sort of yeah term for Guerilla citizenship uh uh sorry yeah well I maybe also Guerilla citizenship but like Guerilla journalism where people um uh have an incentive again to report on on the situation they see um and so I referenced V Alex talk so he talks or mostly pushes for like we should have more transparent and and these economic algorithms that we're building to to decide on whether annotations on posts should be shown the problem that you have if you think about this as a platform like Twitter is that you have a global decision to make should this annotation of whether it's misinformation or harmful or I'm not going to use the political terms um should that be shown yes or no and and so you're in this Global arbitration position but if you have subjective money which circles inherently is of community groups you don't have to make a global choice you can just for that Community create a helpfulness score for any annotation and you can opt into which score you like to see and because they're not just subjective but they're also consistent you can merge these scores and you can say like I want to see the score globally over all communities or put on any glasses that that you would like to see and and um try and again I think that's a very important tool to try to build is like can we see the world through other people's eyes because if we don't see the same problems there's really no point on trying to solve problems together either and then maybe a last point is just all of this imagination is very nice but if no one's actually participating then um you just have Theory and maybe some implementation that has no usage so so you do want to think about incentives and so you could think about making any of those um other than the inherent incentivization of having a sane information ecosystem but like a profit incentive on top of that you could make them into prediction markets like will this post have been considered helpful in the future for this community can be a market that you can automate for any of them and so you actually have a financial incentive not just an inherent incentive for your community to to have a good information digest um to uh and also to b battle attacks like if someone tries to corrupt your uh information feed like they they will lose money because they will have to make the bet uh anyway we haven't solved any important problems but we're very happy to invite you along the journey um very simply if uh maybe the most easy step is you can already get circles uh the project has been alive for a while so there's two wallets there's a legacy wallet and then nois is building uh a novel wallet called metri um feel free to use either uh if you're building wallets we're also super happy to support that um make it native uh part yeah I think that's it uh thank you very much and if you have any questions do we have questions uh thanks for the talk I I'm slightly confused about um about the personal tokens and at some point you also mention the CRC token that it gets issued is this the same thing but because you said said that the CRC could be potentially put deposited into a pool um to earn fees um and well if my personal circles tokens are dirty or like worthless because they come from a civil account then H how can somebody do due diligence and uh right so um uh yeah I I I don't need the slides back I'll I'll try to do this without um so yes the personal circles are uh specific to your so so think of it as an erc20 contract that you launch like I can make bcoin now on ethereum and no one is interested right um and I can have a mint function on that and I can say like I'm going to Mint one Ben coin per hour again no one's interested what we do is we say like everyone gets to do this and then we make them fungible without your signature if you've said that this other account is trustable so so what what I meant and I should have explained better with um if you trust too carelessly like in the beginning uh this sort of gaseous analogy is that um you can have a balance over any of those erc20 contracts in this model and so you might end up with a zero balance of your own tokens but have the New Balance in some attacker tokens and so for the group collateralizing this means that you just can't collateralize into the group because they don't accept the attacker tokens but they only accept yours and so if there's no other conditions on minting for the group then the attacker can now mint and get that group currency and uh uh and and issue it so so I think it's both interesting to think about those conditions um but it's also the groups are in effect a um a widening of the fungibility it's easy and sort of a collateralization again using the same word but slightly different meaning meaning that like I can locally trust a number of people but it's also interesting to say like oh right everyone that eat kef trusts I probably also want to trust and so I'm going to accept eat kef's Community currency and then there is a slight risk that there are some civil tokens but it's sort of uh averaged out by by the community does that help um yeah I do have more questions but I guess I chat to you later thank you for the talk me personally I learn a lot despite I use circles already for some time um a question do you have any strategies how you can grow users you know circles or visibility uh of circles among different users like Partnerships Integrations or maybe any other marketing strategies thank you um so I'm probably not the right person to answer these things um but yes I mean I think I'd want to say two things one sort of where where I can contribute most is and and what I'm trying to currently do is is try to build an actual protocol that is easy or that has good Developers experience um so making it easier for wallets to integrate this making it easier for daps to integrate this part of this talk is also why should you integrate circles right so like governance can be one angle it's not the only one um specifically also like paying for things is the obvious use case of a money um but that has a more strong bootstrapping problem um then the second um sort of what the official marketing plan is so well maybe first anyone who is interested I we're super happy to talk so um we we do have strong support from nois so this project isn't doesn't have any investors or any special allocations like it is just personal circles only um but nosis pay and cop do have uh like we have strong ties and so we we we obviously work to to integrate there um and then I think lastly sort of the the big relaunch that we're planning uh was originally for ETC but we're postponing this rather till the point where we have this defi liquidity bootstrapped at least for selected groups so if people already start making groups then then we will try to bootstrap liquidity for that uh with many different mechanisms I will try to to establish so so that there is value for people that are either in a group or have some path towards groups that they they can have liquidity and and that that will be because um yeah maybe relating to the previous talk uh most users probably don't care about our technology and so we really want to relaunch with a story where there is fungibility and dollar exchange for circles but hopefully also a native use for circles uh so that not the only use is caching them out but you have incentives to to actually use them when when that big relaunch will be uh will depend on how many people help us build it as fast as we can thanks any more questions otherwise I'll pass it on thank you very much thank you Ben our next speaker uh is coo at Ed defy and the topic is really interesting defy for normal people hey Mike can you hear us Mike hey can you guys hear me yes uh okay great uh uh all right uh yeah I'll try to I'll try to do this presentation remotely uh I guess um is there going to be an ability to do a Q&A or or is it uh just a presentation yeah we can do Q&A at the end of the presentation okay all right great uh all right well let me uh let me present my screen here okay all right uh looks like it's showing up so we're we're good uh all right well thank you for uh for having me uh I uh yeah I appreciate the opportunity to chat with uh with folks and um uh yeah you know it'll probably be like a 10 or 15 minute presentation and then uh uh if you guys have questions or uh you know about really anything I guess I'm happy to stick around and answer those um so uh yeah so I'm I'm Mike I'm the Thunder CEO of ethery um our mission at ether fry uh in the in the long term is to create a basically a suite of apps uh that makes defi easy for normal people um with the ultimate goal that people can replace uh Banks uh for uh you know for their day-to-day use so in other words we're trying to build a Crypton native Financial Services uh company um and so uh I guess as as part of that that you know the as a motivation for why we're doing this I thought I would go through a presentation and talk about um uh the the challenges I guess that exist for uh you know for defi adoption for normal people today and uh and then I'll you know speak a little bit more about how how we're trying to uh trying to solve that all right so uh it may be a little bit hard for me to see but uh how many of you guys use def5 looks like there was a few people that showed uh you know sure and that you know that makes sense obviously in this in this audience uh uh it makes sense there's going to be uh you know a good number of people that they use a dayto day um but how many of you feel safe and comfortable when you're using uh defi like you know when you press that button on your uh on your Hardware wallet or when you uh you know click the button on metamask or Rabbi or whatever you're using uh I I didn't see the same hands go up so I'm gonna gonna assume that most people you know you use defi but you don't feel super safe doing it it's still feels like kind of a janky experience uh where you know you might lose all your crypto if you if you click the wrong button and I think that's one one example uh and it's especially telling given that you know in this in this audience it's um uh it's a group of pretty sophisticated people right like it's a group of people that are very very crypto ative relative to what you know what a normal person might be so uh uh what I what I want to do is walk you through a conversation that I had with a friend um when they were trying to use ethery for the first time and I use ethery the protocol as um uh as an example because you know I don't want to uh call out other protocols or other projects uh uh you know I I'll just talk about us specifically but I think this same experience probably applies to uh to in many cases more so applies to other projects I think eify kind of you know is generally known as being a one of the easier projects to uh to use um and and yet you know when you walk through the um the actual experience of of using it for you know for a normal person uh it's quite um uh it can be quite quite challenging so I was talking to a friend of mine um and telling them tell telling him uh about all the things that uh you know that that I'm working on and you know what e is doing and this friend of mine is actually pretty uh uh let's say accomplished right he's about my age so he's not you know he's not super old um he uh he was a tech startup founder so he had a company that he uh uh he started and ran uh for for many years and then eventually sold it so he you know he he made a bunch of money uh doing that so he's pretty successful um he has an engineering background like he codes you know probably uh uh you know pretty regularly probably every day uh he's working on his next startup now so the reason I say this is like this is not even this person that I'm going to walk through an example uh you know of is not really a normal person like this person is very technically Savvy accomplished smart you know uh I think this is about as good as you can get you know as far as a person who is uh you know is trying to get into crypto and should be able to uh uh you know get started pretty easily okay so with that context uh the first thing that he does is he sends $5,000 to Kraken um because you know he's trying to figure out out how do I buy eth uh so that I could you know so that he could stake it on ether FR so he sends $5,000 to Kraken after a week the money still hasn't shown up now uh Kraken obviously is a pretty pretty large exchange so he's wondering like what's going on is this like did he just lose $5,000 like what uh what happened here okay so uh then he says all right well let me you know that didn't work so what if I try another um uh you know exchange and there's another Exchange in Canada he's he happens to be Canadian called wealth simple um so he says well why don't I just buy my eth uh you know on this other exchange so uh I said sure whatever that's fine go you know go to wealth wealth Supple the main thing is that you need to be able to withdraw uh your crypto into your uh your wallet so he gets uh metamask um uh and uh you know purchases some some crypto and um uh you know and is about to withdraw it so this is I think the first example of frustration with crypto that when you go to buy it um the only way to actually buy it is through these centralized exchanges that create a pretty in most cases a pretty negative experience when you do so like your money gets stuck uh and it's opaque how to then actually get these uh uh you know get the crypto out so it's a very um uh just the the very beginning of the experience of of trying to get into crypto is already pretty challenging and frustrating um okay so then he looks at wealth simple he's you know he's about to buy his crypto and he realizes that wealth simple takes two% a 2% fee on purchasing um uh crypto which is you know kind of insane and to him this is you know this is a surprise and it's a frustrating uh you know it's a frustrating surprise and it's a good example of the various sort of hidden fees and all the you know the pitfalls that you kind of run through when uh when you're trying to just get started okay so then finally you know after a while his uh his Kraken funds showed up uh but he realized that uh uh in transferring funds to Kraken there was you know a wire fee and you know some deposit fee that ended up costing him uh over1 $ uh so again yet another example of like all right look I'm just trying to buy some crypto and the result is this sort of uh you know uh surprisingly negative experience where the funds get stuck for a while and then you know he gets charged a pile of money for uh uh you know for doing it okay finally all right so he's purchased he got his funds onto uh onto an exchange he's purchased crypto moved it to his his treasure but now he's trying to figure out how to move it to to metamask so that he can use it in in defi um and to us like to again more sophisticated crypto people that use defi pretty regularly that seems like really uh really intuitive and obvious right you take you know you buy your crypto on the exchange uh you send it to your Hardware wallet you connect your Hardware to uh to metamask uh but to him this is like a this is a new experience um he's confused about how um uh you know how to connect his Hardware wallet to his metamask so that he can then you know plug into E5 and just think about the number of like steps that somebody already has had to go through just to be able to use like a very simple staking app right like it's this is about as simple as it can get and you can see like there's like already a sequence of three steps that he had to do with a bunch of barriers preventing him from from doing so uh okay so then uh you know finally he's he's making the connection that oh okay so when I transfer it from you know from Kraken to treasure to metamask it's you know metamask and treasure it's still the same wallet it's not a new uh you know a new a new thing that I'm depositing into so finally all right he figures it out he gets it uh you know he gets it onto his his Hardware wallet he finally connects it to to ethery and he Stakes uh one e and um uh you know and he's describing the experience of having done so and he's saying all right so to deposited to ethery I have to do uh two transactions because he had to do an approval um and then he had to a deposit transaction you realize all right there's like $15 worth of gas fees uh you know that resulted in in doing that and again to us to to a crypto sort of native audience this is like this feels intuitive and like yeah of course you know you just do your approval transaction then you do your deposit uh it all feels very straightforward but to a normal person trying to go through uh you know through defi um again just think about the sequence of things that he's had to do just to perform this very simple action right like put money in exchange figure out how to get it to show up buy the crypto move it you know to his Hardware wallet connect his Hardware to metam mask connect the metamask wallet to this sta do one transaction and and think about the number of scams this person probably had to navigate you know when they Googled to look or or looked on social media or whatever and trying to figure out how to do this stuff uh you know it's like staking your eth is basically like an obstacle course with i as I you know with what I think is like a pretty simple uh you know project um um and then he he wants to transfer the state de to liquid which is another one of our our products that um you know deploys it in defi so uh so now he's confused all right so I moved this eth into somewhere else but now the E doesn't show up in his wallet so it's not obvious to him that by depositing it into another protocol to deploy it into into defi uh it's not obvious to him that they eat the still stake then yeah he got some other random token that now he's received uh you know in exchange for for depositing it into into def5 um all right so finally he got it staked he got it deployed into defi uh and by the way this conversation is happening over the course of uh I think it was at least you know a day pretty so it's pretty much a full day of me go like back and forth trying to uh trying to help him and walk him through this this whole process finally he gets everything you know staked and and deposited and he says okay great now how do I actually um uh monitor whether this thing is you know doing what it's supposed to be doing uh and and that's a good question like what you know think about yourself like how do you monitor the performance of your your assets like do you like it's it's uh it's not easy to figure out like okay are you actually uh you know is are your assets growing or not uh and then of course there's a question of um uh depending on what tax jurisdiction you live in now you need to think about uh well how do I pay tax taxes on this stuff like I'm earning all these rewards is this you know are these income are they capital gains or uh you know what uh what do you actually how do you actually navigate this uh uh you know this process so that you can you know be compliant with the laws that you have um and again to repeat this is all this sequence of steps and these questions and you know what what you end up with is all just for like a simple staking protocol let's you know let's put aside something like uh uh more more interesting like you know playing around with a or looping or you know all the crazy derivatives and protocols that exist in you know in def5 um yeah so think about all the different steps and assumptions that a person needs to have in order toh to actually be able to do the simplest thing in in D5 so I think through this experience and probably I'm sure many of you have had the same experience as well when you tried to get a you know normal friend uh to participate in in crypto I think the conclusion that uh you know you have to come to is that in its current state defi is basically incomprehensible to normal human beings it's there's way too many steps way too many assumptions um it's basically designed uh for you know hyper sophisticated very financially oriented technical people um and that uh you know I think that that's the reason that defi at this point has maybe you know one or two million users in the world um it's it's still pretty much inaccessible uh to to normal people uh okay so uh so that's I mean that's the mission that ethery uh in in a nut show is we want to make this experience easy we want to make it uh so that a normal person can you know plug in use or get the benefits of defi without having to uh you know go to go through a sequence of 15 different steps and you know confusing uh messaging to try and uh you know to try and uh participate and specifically uh you know I started by by telling you that eise goal is to create a a crypt native financial services company that ultimately replaces Banks we think there's three you know at the very beginning there's three basic you know features or or activities that a user needs to be able to do and those three things are to be able to save invest and spend their money and with ethery that means that uh that is represented by the three products that we uh we currently have which is ethery stake ethery liquid and ethery cash um where stake is you can think of it as a savings uh product liquid is uh you know a non-custodial investment product and cash is our spending account so this is what staking looks like you know for those of you that uh you know haven't used haven't had a chance to use ether fots um for crypto uh person it's uh you know it's fairly straightforward you you click a button and you you stake your eth after going through the the various steps that we saw our friend here go through uh liquid is a non-custodial investment Vault so once you've you've stake your eth you can take it and deploy it in defi with one uh you know one transaction and it gives you access to you know all the best yields across defi in a non-custodial way uh and then etherite cash is the newest product that we just uh announced and it's actually going to be uh uh going to be fully launching in the next next couple months is a uh it's a spending account so it's an actual credit card it's a Visa credit card that lets you spend your crypto in real life without ever having to offer it uh so other words you don't have to do the sort of crazy dance that's basically the inverse of what we just saw you know our friend here uh go through uh you know you can just spend money on this credit card directly and uh you know and live your life and the the way that this product is uh designed is it's super simple you download a mobile app you connect your your wallet uh you transfer money you know from from A Bank buy some crypto uh and then with a single click you can stake and invest your uh your uh your crypto and then you're able to spend money which you can either borrow um uh money against your eifi deposits or it can swap them into you know whatever currency or you're spending again all without having to offer them uh you know yourself and that's basically the whole idea is to never have to offer up again uh and so and with that you know we think that there uh you know that that will open the door to a lot more normal people being able to use uh use crypto um um and get all the benefits of having a censorship resistant non-custodial uh transparent Financial Service uh experience um uh and and eventually get themselves fully out of the the trafi system okay um so that's uh that's the dream that's what we're trying to build um uh so with that I will uh uh how much time do we have looks like we've got a few minutes so yeah happy to answer questions about either you know ethery or um uh or or you know anything kind of in general that you just want to want to chat about please raise your hand if you have a question hello um about this card uh is it works in Ukraine can you send it here yeah that's a good question um so the problem with credit cards is um they uh they're very jurisdiction specific so it depends on the uh uh the specific country that uh uh you know the rules within that country so uh I wish I I probably should have checked this I'm not actually 100% sure if Ukraine is on the initial uh country list but I think eventually uh uh you know eventually we'll we'll definitely make sure that it's deployed in the in Ukraine uh or if you have a friend uh you know in in the somewhere in the EU or the UK you could just you know get him to order the card for you and then it will work in the Ukraine as far as like using it but uh I don't know if Ukraine is is on the list of initial countries where you'll be able to sign up for it thank you any other questions I okay um just just curiosity like this liquid product like could you talk a little bit more about because I was trying to the slide the explainer um I was just curious because I rais my hand with defi but I only just like trade minimal things I never do anything while I just hold so it'd be interested to hear yeah so if you're uh if you're familiar with Ur um it is um kind of a Next Generation version of of UR um if you're not familiar with the Y that doesn't that analogy doesn't help um so okay so so what is it basically uh when you stake your eth with let's say with ether fry or any other you know protocol you get a liquid token representation of that and that token earns uh you know a certain rate of reward like 3% roughly right um so when you stake your e you're getting that uh rate of reward but then you can earn um additional uh rewards and yield on that uh on that token by deploying it into various defi projects so for example you can lend that token or you can deposit it into a and earn an interest rate on top of the you know the staking Rewards or you can put it into you know decentralized exchange and earn trading fees right so you can do all the normal defi Legos um uh that you could do in in defi um which for some people they they they like playing this sort of um these dii games where they deposit it and move it around and loop it and do these complex strategies but many people don't just don't want to do that they don't want to deal with having to uh choose any of the literally hundreds of different projects that they can deposit uh you know uh State deth into um uh and so what liquid does the the EFI liquid product does is it automates the deployment of Stak teeth into all these strategies and balances and diversifies it across uh various uh these various projects so instead of you having to figure which ones and how to construct the strategy you just click one button deposit it into liquid and then you know it's automatically handled for you um so this is analogous it's not you know exactly the same but it's analogous to you know an investment uh product um but in a way that is non custodial and uh and censorship resistant uh so uh you know again instead of you having to do the investment you you just sort of click a button and it doesn't for you again this is not a Perfect Analogy but it's sort of like buying an index fund you know in in the stock market you're just sort of you're you're pressing one button you're buying one asset and then it just sort of deploys it across a whole bunch of different strategies for you uh hello I have a follow-up question on that um I was recently trying out the liquid uh feature of ethery and I just noticed the this little um notice or option to book uh is it Nexus I might be mistaken nuus Mutual or Nexus Mutual the yeah and I would just like it just brought to my head okay I get it it's defi there's risk but I wanted to know like what sort of risk uh is it and what you recommend to users yeah than mutro is is great so they provide insurance for uh smart contract risk so in other words if the you know the project gets hacked uh you would be You' be covered uh you know for for that and exchange obviously for a fee um the uh I mean there's with defi given the state that it's in there's tons of risks right uh because liquid deploys into I think like seven or eight different uh uh protocols so a pretty you know pretty large number of other projects on on your behalf um and so um even if any one of those projects is not very risky right because it's projects like a it's projects like Unis swap uh um these are like Blue Chip projects that have been around for you know a very long time um even if any one of those projects is not super risky the the aggregate of deploying into 10 strategies you know does have um more risk associated with it and so uh so yes it's not a bad idea to buy insurance and uh and get get coverage it kind of depends on how you know how adventurous you are um the nice thing with liquid is it is actively monitored and uh you know it really only deploys into Blue Chip like fairly wellestablished uh projects and strategies um so it uh it's as far as like participating in defi I would say it's a it's a good relatively safe way to do it but um I think getting insurance is always a really good option you very much I can see another hand hi thank you for your presentation and my question will be about uh future of eeri how do you uh see next steps uh of eeri to improve client experience and uh protocol uh yeah I mean I I think the big thing is is what uh you know what I talked about with our cash product which will include a mobile app so it'll be you know if you have a iPhone or Android you'll be able to download this app sign up transfer your money and then do you know all the things that you want to be able to do on on ethery um uh through this app so you'll be able to uh you know uh in a very straightforward way uh you know deposit and move around your your assets and I think that that will be a big step as far as making that experience you know easy for you um me again uh maybe maybe just to spice it up so it's a bit of a curveball to give you a heads up but like do you uh do you have a policy on governance voting with the tokens that are in ether or or how does that work do you have access to being able to vote on behalf of the people that use your products uh do I personally have access as a project um I to what extent you have yeah so we do we actually just sorry I I I want to make sure I'm answering the right question are you asking about uh the E ethi token like do we have any kind of government governance set up and and voting we using the E token um no I was asking like say that I put uh I mean e is not a good example but like some other token like maker or something in a and or to to what extent does that give you um governance access to those protocols on my behalf because maybe it's a wrong what do you mean by governance access I mean I uh does eeri have any of their own projects or I mean I'm assuming like a Etc like they're they're well audited projects but um potentially if you have your own staking um it doesn't give you directly voting but maybe there's other products where where you have built your own contracts and by putting my contracts into your uh by putting my coins into your contract you you effectively have delegated voting rights for those projects I don't know maybe maybe you have none of such yeah so okay I think I I think I understand the so the tokens that you put into ethery are uh we have you know these various smart contracts and products so we have the three products right stake liquid and cash um the tokens that we accept are eth uh and um uh and USD usdc uh you know in a few different versions of USD so those tokens don't have any um you know voting power like there's no governance associated with those those tokens so um uh so there's no uh you know there's no governance I guess actions that we can take on on your behalf and you know as a protocol we wouldn't even if we did accept accept tokens like maker or whatever like that's not something that we would do unless uh I guess unless our community or something asked uh uh you know asked us to do it so I guess yeah short answer is no there's no tokens that you can deposit that will give us governance power on on your behalf thank you very much we have another question thank you for your presentation I have a question about iseri cash so will you use a third party provider as a bridge from eash to crypto or did you build your own uh why am I asking because most of the third party providers I've seen they have a high fee rate for this bridging from E cash to crypto and for me personally it's sometimes easier to make a couple additional approves on chain uh than using them but it's only those which have seen and so if you're using third party which one and why did you choose among all uh the one you will use thank you um so the answer to the question of like do we use third parties is yes we use unfortunately when you use a credit card or when you try to create a credit card product um there's there's probably six or seven different you know uh services that you need to plug into to be able to create that everything from uh you know the actual card processor to the payment processor to on-ramp and off-ramp to you know kyc thing and so on so there's just there's a ton of stuff that's uh you know that's involved um so uh but so the good news is uh no there are not going to be any fees for uh uh for off- ramping because we um We're working directly with circle and tether to be able to move the funds you know from crypto to Fiat and settle it one to one and then we don't charge the user any uh additional fees for uh for doing that so there's no uh there are no fees for onramp and offramp you're you know if you put in a dollar you you get a dollar if you spend a dollar it'll charge you a dollar the only uh fees I guess additional fees that you know we'd have is FX fees uh so so you know Curr currency exchange so if you this is a US dollar card so if you use this US dollar card on uh you know in a uh non for a non- US dollar transaction there is going to be depending on the tier which card specific oh that's weird I was about to sneeze but then it went away um you uh if you use the card for a non USD transaction then there will be a an fx Fe dep depending on the tier uh but that's normal for any credit card right like any card that you use so um you know there's going to be some sort of fxp associated with it with the highest tier of card there actually is no uh fxp um the lowest the lower sort of Cheaper tiers of the card there is going to be I think like a 1% fxp which again is pretty pretty typical unfortunately okay I think we asked everything so thank you very much for joining us today yeah thank you thanks for having me I appreciate it uh yeah enjoy enjoy the rest of the the conference guys and I'm sure I'll I'm sure I'll see some folks around at the various other crypto conferences thank you very much cool thanks guys see you okay let's give a very warm welcome to our next speaker who is just heading on the stage it's Harry CEO of nim and the topic is how to avoid metamask getting your IP address yes okay cool um and does the slides work okay looks like they do so I'm from Nim and uh maybe I need to turn it on give me a second um there we go there we go okay okay so ethereum is it's it's very useful for many things like defi but it has some problems has anyone here ever been blocked from using ethereum based service no no issues okay well for example we have had a lot of cases where you have a situation where obviously because of the Russian invasion of Ukraine uh areas like you know the occupied Ukraine areas and Crea should be blocked but often like kind of dumb American companies are like oh it's too complicated to figure out who's in Crea versus who's not and blah blah blah so they will just block all of Ukraine and we have to argue with them like why are you blocking Ukraine so forth and so on so and also you'll you'll notice that like certain um uh at least you know various different exchanges often do kind of censor transactions and this has been a large problem for ethereum validators as well people been following all the debates over inclusion list how to get the validators like kind of Fairly include uh various transactions and it really wasn't considered a particularly big deal until I think this time about almost two years ago a year and a half ago metamask changed their policy so that they actually started tracking everyone's IP addresses and that's not exactly uh metamask itself uh this is the change of policy it's infura which is their RPC provider so if you are using infura which like most people that use metamasks do use uh it basically gathers uh your IP address and then can share that with the company with advertisers governments I mean who knows so I think for privacy reasons it's probably good not to give them uh your IP address and so we've invented uh so how the people here use VPN at all how many people just okay most people cool anyone use tour okay people have heard of it two or three or four okay so what happens um with Nim is we basically said well look we have this problem where every time you use the internet you're essentially leaking your IP address and therefore the IP address can actually kind of geolocate which neighborhood you're in often so we want to basically make a solution which does not leak that data now the problem with VPN and tours you use a a VPN all of the VPN provider kind of captures all of your data so they know exactly what you're doing um and if you use tour there's like a statistical correlation attack where you can look at the inin exit nodes and often tour just gets blocked as well because people will assume you're up to uh no good so we decided that we wanted to create you know how blockchains work is they send transactions so we decided we wanted to create a transaction based Anonymous networking uh app this is a Nim mixnet so it's similar to tour because it has multiple hops to unlink the origin destination IP address um but it's different in so far is that there is cover traffic so when you're not using it it sends fake traffic out that's quite useful um and the traffic usually when I use tour a VPN the packets come first in first out so if i s in the packet it's the second packet they actually exit in the same order more or less the same time that uniquely fingerprints your which website you're visiting or whatever even if you're using a VPN or tour so we actually uh change the order of packets we mix them that's why it's called a mix net and in order to speed it up we allow people in a decentralized fashion to add more nodes you're interested in running a node we're doing a Meetup after this at 4M and we can walk through the node setup process so it's kind rather than running a validator you're running a mix node rather than mining or doing a proof of State game you're mixing people's packets um so this is like a comparison of the difference between the various uh kind of anonymous routing software so you look at a VPN it's a big centralized server and you can see that this pattern that comes in and comes out is kind of the same so they can see what you're doing the VPN provider sees what you're doing anyone looking at the VPN provider says you're doing tour is a bit better because there's three hops there's an entry a relay and an exit these are the guards but you can still see that fingerprint of traffic is still there so we think mix Nets particularly for at least packet based routing is the best because you see the pattern comes in but then all the packets are kind of made the same size they're mixed up and they come out more Anonymous so I think it's a pretty easy visualization um and if you're interested in coding on them for the hackathon we have a lot of ways to do that um we have built effectively what's called a a local client you can install and play with um you can also run servers that are kind of the closest thing you have to Hidden services in Nim called service providers which are only accessible via the Nim mixnet and then we have this thing called gateways which allow you to so so if I'm using an anonymous router I'm on my phone I'm sending Anonymous packets back and forth but like let's say my phone uh goes out of Internet service who's collecting those do you want to lose those packets know you want to collect them somewhere and you collect them at the Gateway this is the equivalent of the Interior exit nodes for tour um and then in order to integrate against them you can use websockets I know people here use websockets it's quite nice uh and Jana later today will be showing out how to do JavaScript integration we can also you can also use pure web assemblies you can actually somewhat similar this is very useful for censorship resistance so you want to be using a a VPN like system like our mixnet you do not want people to know you're using it so you can embed the mixnet client itself into a web page so it looks like you're just visiting I don't know you know my homepage.com but actually you're going to the mixnet and you're you're going out this we think could be quite useful for people in places like occupied Ukraine that need to kind of get out you know escape and not reveal that they're kind of talking home uh to Ukraine and then we have a socks 5 client for anyone who's pretty old school that's how tour mostly works and just shovels shoves all the the internet traffic into a a kind of Port so all those work today and we'll go into them uh the Meetup in more detail and so the steps to like make it make uh Nim work is you basically download What's called Network topology so if you use a VPN the big problem with VPN they get blocked the way they block is they block all the entry exit nodes tour has like seven or 11 machines running a directory Authority which lists the entry and exit noes that's how tour gets censored so we actually use a blockchain here so we have validators you retrieve a blockchain the blockchain does a peer toe broadcast you can keep updated on what nodes are running uh you register you authenticate this is all Anonymous it's done via ZK proof which we'll be giving out during the workshop and then you can basically send uh messages and we send messages using this thing called the Sphinx packet format so if anyone here knows what lightning is it's an anonymous packet format it's the same packet format that lightning uses um this is kind of the the detailed take on the mixnet so again this is a user you kind of encrypt your packets on your local machine you make them all the same size you ship them through the mixnet we add in the cover traffic we add in the multiple hops we mix them up and they come out Anonymous so I'll skip the socks 5 stuff and but people interested you can use sockss 5 works well with telegram so it's very easy to use them with telegram and other applications like that uh Bitcoin wallets this is a Bitcoin wallet uh from blockstream they definitely uh use socks 5 now uh web sockets works pretty well web assembly also works well there's a whole SDK which you can investigate um just really depends so if you're interested in using like an mpm and JavaScript to use them you can talk to Yan I will be going through that later today and we do indeed have a token the token basically exists to give a reputation to the mix node so rather than staking on a validator you stake on a mix node the mix node is like again it's kind of like a VPN node the more packets you send through the VPN node the more Nim you get from a smart contract that's called a proof of mixing so rather than mining you're mixing and we basically kind of test by sending fake traffic through a network if you're mixing or not and then assuming more and more people using n work you basically end up getting more and more Nim tokens which we think is you know not so bad um and there's all these different roles you can play but I'll kind of skip that because it gets complicated uh and then by the way because we have we're using it in a very high speeed way we do not build the core infrastructure on top of ethereum itself because of transaction feeds and being kind of slow we build on top of of Cosmos we use kmm for our smart contracts because it's faster and also lets us do kind of zero knowledge stuff really cheap which is still something everyone's kind of working on on ethereum um so anyways after we discovered that metamask was harvesting people's IP addresses uh if you want to not have your uh IP address harvested uh the community not us basically set up a RPC node that used NM really quickly so this was set up by no trust verifi that's the medium page there that gives you instructions of how to use Nim uh with RP to to kind of hide your RPC node and then you know some people but the problem is if you if you if you if you just use another RPC node even a Nim enabled RPC node what's the problem well the problem is you're still trusting that RPC node so maybe you don't want to trust that RPC node in that case uh you can just actually run your own uh you can run your own RPC node and so what you do is you can follow these instructions again software not created by us but by the community called for software called spook and spook basically sets up Nim yourself on your local hard on your local dis and then communicates to the RPC node uh via Nim when you're talking to metamask that's another kind of nice setup but effectively the way you want to think about it is you know you have your metamask wallet over here it talks to our websocket client that websocket client things sends things through the mix Network and then we talk to ethereum using the mixed Network directly so that's a little bit more trustworthy uh but a little bit more complicated the instructions are online and some people are like well whatever I want to run my own RPC node if you want to run your own RPC node uh we are working with andrees and Horwitz and I recommend this is probably the best RPC node software out there called Helios and it basically lets you run your own untrusted of course centralized RPC inpoint in a in a pretty safe way and that binds uh really well to Nim you can go to our GitHub and see our our binding so rather than download the a16 version you download R fork and R Fork uh kind of puts Nim on top of the RPC provider that then you yourself run so depending on how paranoid you are you can either just to summarize you can use someone else's RPC that's enabled by Nim you can run Nim be on your own machine before you talk to the RPC node or you can run your own RPC node with Nim embedded in it these are all cool this is probably the most paranoid version and it's honestly pretty simple but we do have things we would like people to do and we'd be happy if you guys are any have any hardcore metam Mass coders out there and ethereum coders these are things that we would give uh Nim to large Nim token grants to see completed so the problem is that most people are not going to like essentially change their RPC settings right so what we would like is a version of metam mas that like automatically uses the mixet to hide your transactions essentially an anonymous metamask I think that would be pretty cool uh that would require hacking metamask which is pretty hard so if you're interested in that uh get in touch and that would be better than using uh fully functional e transactions through Nim so I'm just going to end by showing this is how you know this is how this is how it works today again it's not like super hard to change your RPC provider you just add a network so I do I do hope people try to get this working um and if you kind of want to look at what Nim is doing at when you it this is if you if you use metamask plus Nim you can actually see it in action you can see it talking to websockets putting your ethereum transactions into Sphinx packets and sending them out this is just a screenshot from my terminal um and it's looks kind of complicated but it's really just again sending RPC receiving and if you've done some coding you you've seen that before uh and you can see it's trying to to do that through um so that's it that's kind of the the the metamask game however uh we are also interested there there's a bit of an issue with eth 2 uh so with ethereum 2 this came up people got worried because I think the leader selection was at least in the was deterministic so the problem is if you can predict the next leader you can DDOS that that validator does anyone here run E2 validators they're pretty heavyweight okay you run a E2 validator you may get DDOS and this allows all sorts of financial attacks on ethereum so so we worked with chain safe which is an ethereum company to effectively add uh libp to P do people fam lib P2P yeah so we add lib P2P support for Nim and this basically lets you use Nim as a pluggable transport on top of lib P2P which is pretty cool because using our kind of nim uh rust API this a little screenshot of it here it's a lot going on but I'll speed up uh you can integrate direct Nim directly against ethereum 2 consensus clients so we' used there people familiar with lighthouse that's one of the rust base ethereum consensus client so we basically tried to add Nim to that client now there was some people have these questions about mix Nets they say so you know we talked to ethereum Foundation they like oh they're too heavyweight they're too slow I was like well it depends on your consensus algorithm right so uh current when we did the testing on ethereum 2 I don't know if it's this has changed but last time I did the testing we had about four seconds for Block production 300 milliseconds to produce the block 1,200 500 milliseconds to receive the block from the ethereum network and 550 seconds to process the block so if you add all these up that's like two seconds and then we can actually fit a mix net although not without too much mixing but we kind if you turn the mixing off and you just do the cryptography to hide the IP address we can get the mixnet inside of ethereum consensus because it only takes three to 400 milliseconds to run if your machine's fast enough which most ethereum validators are pretty heavyweight machines and uh that's pretty cool we're still working to speed up even more we think we'll get a two to fourx speed up because we're optimizing curve 25519 using assembly level optimizations made by Daniel Bernstein who invented curve 25519 who we are working with so I think we if people are interested in running essentially an anonymous E2 validator this is something we're definitely interested in seeing if people can do so we'd love to like talk to people we you know we'd give grants for people to finish coding all this stuff up um but you can basically um yeah you can you can check it out and I think the other thing we're now looking at is we're looking at uh validator inclusion and validator censorship of transactions and just trying to fix that so if you have any questions that's me on Twitter that's my email we have a telegram Channel and we are doing a Meetup at 4M I think Yana it's downstairs or upstairs upstairs okay it's upstairs so just stop by and we're gonna and we have oh it's downstairs sorry it's downstairs and if you stop by we have essentially you can use Nim as a VPN and we'll be giving away free zero knowledge access credentials to access the VPN and so you get a free VPN app showing up but we might ask you to do some usability testing because we're still trying TR to get it get it really working and fast enough for everyone okay that's it I don't know if there's any questions please raise your hand if you have questions probably a bit different than your standard defi talk so sorry we're not doing Define okay uh so as I understood uh you uh hiding packets yeah we're hiding pack uh yeah uh by making all of them one size so for this you have to fill them with some mock dummy data yeah we do so that's done with the Sphinx packet format so like you have let's say you have a small packet and our packets are currently like 200 some kilobytes we probably will increase it to 500 to speed things up so let's say your message is less than 200 kilobytes then we fill dummy data and encrypt that packet plus the dummy data and when the dummy data exits the network it's kind of unpacked and you get the real packet out but the packet the the servers in between can't see what packet is inversely if you're let's say I'm sending a video or giant file like a copy of the ethereum blockchain through Nim you can do this but we have to take this huge you know gigabytes or terabyte thing and divide into lots of little packets and we send them out so that's why there's a bit of a Slowdown right so it really depends what you're doing so for ethereum and for even some of the smaller zero knowledge proofs it's pretty good right the packets aren't so huge but if you're sitting like huge files or pictures over telegram it have it has a tendency to be really slow because you have to reassemble all the packets and then unpack them okay thanks okay I think we don't have more questions I know there was another speaker yeah uh just a short followup from was a pretty good question are you would you want to work on sort of this this alternative like higher bandwidth for larger files is that something on your yeah yeah so we're we're running experiments uh I'll discuss them at the the Meetup but we're trying to figure out what's the optimal size for the packets right so so obviously like you could make the packets bigger so we make them 500 kilobytes they'd be less packets which is on some level good right but it depends what's going on so if everyone's just sending short text messages all the time it's kind of B wasteful of bandwidth but if people are sending like large zero knowledge proofs or whatever then maybe we want our like videos or images we probably want to increase it you can even to be frank it's it's you can run two different packet sizes over the network at once but then the problem is like like an enemy can then distinguish the packet so what the enemy let's say like the Russian government say oh well that's an ethereum transaction because it's small packet and that's a an image because that's a big p that's a bunch of big packets and so I think it's a trick to find like a packet size that's big enough that can handle larger files but not so big it just like Burns all your bandwidth down and right now are kind of leaning towards 500 kilobytes we're thinking of doubling the packet size pretty soon okay well I'll we'll be downstairs or upstairs I forget and uh downstairs and I'll see you around thanks so much it's wonderful being Kev Victory to Ukraine we have one more question oh one more question okay uh I just didn't get uh if it's free to use it for example I want to start like terabyte of data uh I need NS to send it uh no not right now I mean with we will probably eventually I mean we will charge the VPN use eventually because people who are using the VPN are just shoving tons of packets through right now you can just send packets through and no one's charging uh and it's used through uh mix the JavaScript or web assembly or websocket so it's just free and I think we're going to try to keep like for developers uh we'll try to keep like the mixnet Integrations as free basically but for people that want to use as a VPN and they're like sending tons of traffic through because they're downloading Netflix yeah we we'll probably charge them some VPN is fee uh but for developers like if you're doing ethereum stuff doesn't really make sense um and the payment mechanism if you're interested we we have although uh we haven't really discussed it in this presentation but we have a zero knowledge proof payment system because let's say you want to pay for an m you want to buy some Nim because you want to use Nim as a VPN you're not just sending a few ethereum transactions through but you're sending like huge amounts of data through then then essentially what we would do because we don't want your payment data is you basically but we also we don't want you to care about Nim right I mean Nim's a cool token uh but it might be too complicated for a lot of ordinary people to convert like ethereum to Nim or I don't know their credit card to Nim so what we do is we basically have aart contract that takes many different kinds of payments and then converts in the Nim on the back end and then get without you worrying about it uh and then gives you a zero knowledge proof back and you use a zero knowledge proof uh it's what we call ZK NM to show that you've paid and that zkm delinks your payment from your usage of the network because like with a traditional VPN the VPN provider can always figure out who you are if you're paying because they have your freaking credit card details uh I guess it wouldn't like in a torrent for example you have a Rao or for example you validated at the same time uh for example for radio like three uh you need to pass three terabytes to get one terabyte like yeah we we've thought about that but we haven't implemented that so right now everything is just free just if you're just want you can just use it like no one's no one's charging anything right now we're thinking about how to charge in the future for VPN usage uh but yeah that's a good idea like a ratio we haven't really thought about that too much okay well thanks for the good idea we'll follow up on that and uh thank you very much thank you very much uh unfortunately our next speaker um has health issues today and he couldn't join uh right now so you all have free time till 4:30 and please come back [Music] oh [Music] [Music] oh [Music] he [Music] hey he [Music] he hey he hey [Music] hey he [Music] hey [Music] he [Music] oh oh oh [Music] oh [Music] [Music] hey haers please proceed to the lecture hall we will start in a few minutes with our next presentation [Music] he [Music] speak hey everyone we are waiting for you all in our lecture hall because our next speaker already ready to give us his presentation so our next speaker is Yuri claran who is a CEO of Blox rout and he will talk us through the future of Yuri can you hear us hey hey okay good afternoon good morning for me um will you also show my slides yeah please share your screen I'm already sharing yes we can see now okay perfect hi everyone URI from blockout here um not sure how many people are actually in the crowd right now um but ralic is talking after me so I'm pretty sure that the last 10 minutes everybody will come um today we're going to talk about bit about the future of me um in order to understand where meev is going we're also going to talk a bit about where me came from and where it's currently at and we're going to get the unaligned Edition so we're going to talk take all the spicy takes of did we make the right choices did we really make good choices about it but before all of that I want to give a really big shout out to wait colors are completely off right you see this in white and here no we can see as yellow and blue thank you okay it's weird I'm seeing it different okay perfect then that would have been weird great shout outs to the Ukrainian people um want to give it like the rest of the world actually know who's the bad people and who's the good people we have our own Dev team in Ukraine we understand the situ or you know as much as you can understand from the outside wanted to give you a big shout out and know that the rest of the world are on your side but but getting back to actually crypto and me before we get started why even listen to what URI has to say um well I do have a PhD in computer science specifically about the blockchain network ler started blocks Route Around 2016 2017 and we a major actor in Defi and in MV okay so if you don't know blocks route we route to blocks and transaction we have infrastructure sent information blocks and transaction roughly at the speed of light um and when the defi summer happened in 2020 all of a sudden everybody started to use us everybody wanted to hear information fast they wanted to send transaction fast to the mining pools back at the day they wanted to front run others they wanted front running protection so we actually had front running protection before flat but even existed we run two of the re of the M relays um on ethereum which is huge out of the four and we have our own builder that's not really interesting but all the builders are our users customers some are among our investors so we're very very deep both in Defi and in me and lastly I'm a giant defi B okay I actually think that defi is the most important application of crypto I think single Global transparent permissionless always on you know Financial ecosystem for the world is extremely valuable and to achieve that I'm willing to make to argue with a lot of people even if I respect and think very high of them like V so we had this idea around 2020 or it really kicked off in 2020 about Defi and you know original e Delta wasn't really working but Unis swap was working and we started to build like the for exchanges and lending protocols and everything regarding Defi and things are kind of okay we're building it we're making it we're moving to build this new Utopia of how Finance should work and then any came around right the first to identify it were really the Traders before all the academics as academics um Traders figured out wait can I send the transactions faster can I cut a deal with the mining pool can I I see another transaction can I front at it and I pay higher um we actually had a PM at the time Allan who later left to build a yield protocol um so he came to me he said HRI our infrastructure will be perfect for like front running and for Traders and I told no no no we're not doing that that's not the interesting Reon you know he was actually right um through May Mev came came along like wait this makes everything complicated and so when I say Mev I don't really mean me me is like okay what is the maximal extractable value that includes fees and gas and it's when people really talk about me they talk about two things there's front running and sandwiching and there is arbitrage these are the stuff sure there are other stuff there's long tail there's blah blah blah true but really the big pieces are trun run and Arbitrage and Arbitrage is actually a good thing it corrects the price right if you send a trade you have a th000 usdc you want to buy e you send your trade and you want hfts to correct the price you don't want the old price you want the current correct price and so you actually want them to always correct the price so you don't need to open seven different one what's the price here what's the price here what's the price there if there's Arbitrage all the prices will be the same everywhere and normal users don't have to think about it so Arbitrage is actually a good thing front running is really bad we're going to talk about that but the aligned argument around me here um you know this is from 2021 from bird from flash bot is here's what we're going to do we're going to try to minimize the me that we can and we're going to maximize the fair extraction of the me we can't minimize so that was the original promise right let's minimize the me and democratize what we can so that was one kind of like direction that we started with um and if you other aligned arguments were you know let's avoid the trod latency game I actually fail for that okay like like it really has a nice rink to it we're building defi okay defi this is the new Financial system blah blah blah Etc we don't want to bring tradire in tradire are the bad people we don't like them we don't want their games let's let's build something better okay so make me not latency Wars okay rise rise above TR by gas lighting we're building a Global system today so it can't be latency related um and even balic um literally two years ago in Vienna I was probably the only person arguing with him in that conversation I think maybe the key point is that you know me is the centralization force okay and so we have to make sure that all validators make the same apy otherwise we're screwed okay if we don't make it if we don't do something about me then some small validators would make lower apy and the larger validators with resources and expertise will be better at it they will extract more M they will have higher apy and so everybody will stake with them and all the stake would centralize to the High um to the large validators with a higher apy so we have to make sure for the sake of decentralization that apy is equal for everyone otherwise you know our megadon end of the world is terrible and so vitalic came said like here because of that here's what we're going to do we're going to break it into two pieces we're going to have the validator they're just dump pipes anybody could run it it doesn't matter everybody will get the same API you just run a validator you know we have PBS implemented as M boost they'll get blocks from other people so the they're just done you get something whoever gives you the best bid you sign it off and done and all the centralization and all the sophistication and really the economies of scale will happen at the Builder space so basically take what we have and break it into two pieces so all the bad stuff only happen in the Builder space let's call it and the validator space is safe from that there's there's not going to be centralization there because apy will be the same for everybody so these were the arguments okay um that we're going to minimize the M that we can that we want to avoid the latency games and that really we have to break it and give the same apy for everybody otherwise me is going to destroy ethereum that was the thinking that was the argument before that now let me give you the underlined argument counter to the entire thing okay we did not minimize M we maximized M we did not say okay let's make it as small as we can and democratize the rest we did the opposite we maximized the me so it's not that some validators extract more some extract less ET no we build a market so every single validator every single block will have the power of all the builders the most sophisticated actors and they will have access to all the so the most value is extracted in every block in every validator I go full okay you have all the hfts and some of them really try hfts building Searchers building block Builders even worse we're going to talk about it so regardless if that was the right decision or the wrong decision right to vitalic argument maybe maybe it's worth it maybe we should have done it for to make sure everybody get the same apy but let's not lie to ourselves that we minimized me no we have maximized me we wanted to level the field so we put everything max pain okay like we maximize me for everybody at any everywhere that's what we actually did so that's for that argument now for context any auctions when we run this auction who will pay the most is a negative sum game not even a zero sum game okay the more value validators extract from D5 the worst def is okay this is not money coming from th m is not value creation in any way only extract value and so the more value they make the more they extract the worse def e okay and the less useful it is if you have a thousand US dollars or usdc and you want to buy e you will get a better price at coinbase than on Unis SW okay because if you know let's say price is of e is $3,500 and you set the bid and price goes up your transaction fail price goes down you would still get the 3,500 price that you mentioned and if you add slippers say you know I'm willing to accept up to 3,600 at that point you just sign up to getting the worst execution and so the more value they extract the worse defa is the worse defa is the less liquidity is going to have less activity it's going to have and the less M value they were going to have tomorrow okay so this is truly and really a negative s game the more we extract the less me there is the worse def is and the less of it tomorrow now to the latency Point okay I said earlier I really we want to have dadfy latency game right we don't want to make recreate Trad five we're trying to build defi the you know the next fair Global Financial system but what we really did is that we threw away all the good of low latency okay as I said earlier low latency is a good thing okay I want hfts hft is high frequency Traders right I want market makers I want the big trading firm of the world spending all their effort so every time the price somewhere is wrong they will go there super fast to correct it so prices are always correct everywhere because if they do that then all the normal users all the people which are not huge trading firms will get the correct price right when I send a trade I'm not trying to be faster than wintermute or jump or like I do not like it's not not trying to win the Pico second I just want to get the current correct price right I'm not an high frequency trading firm and so we threw we throw out all the benefits of like doing okay doing things fast and low latency and we keep the front running and the sandwiching okay why do everybody hate trading firms because of front running and S that is the unfair thing right it's totally fair that if somebody sends a trade faster than me they see the price dipped by a basis point they were the fast they capture it good to them I'm not even trying to compete with them but if I'm about to make a trade I send my trade and then they see it they're like oh this guy is about to buy a lot of e so it will drive the price of e up I should buy just before him so buy cheap increases the price now I get the worst execution I get the worst price and then he's going to sell right after me and he sandwich me and just benefit from me from knowing what I'm about to do then that's why we all hate Trad fight that is the bad thing this is the thing that we have you know rules and laws to prevent and that's the thing that we just normalized we said oh sure that's fine we expect everybody to sandwich and everybody to frud run so it sounds good let's not recreate trfi what we really did is we threw away all the good and we kept all the bad and now to vitalik's point about you know me being the centralization force um me is a centralization force there are many there it's a small centralization Force we didn't know that in advance so okay maybe it was an honest mistake but if you run vanilla validator you just you don't capture you just run it Etc you make 4% apy if you run with meev Boost to be super maximal extractive extract front run sandwich do everything's there you make 4.4% API that's the difference okay we're not talking that with me it makes twice as much money it do increases by 50% or 10x no the difference is if you are staking eth is do you make four or 4.4% that is not a huge game changer difference especially compared to the other vectors right so what are more significant centralization forces well obviously lsts right so Lio controlling 30% of the state is a much greater centralization force because people like lscs okay even just plain old brand name right we have coinbase public company good company had been in crypto since the beginning and they're running a validator or multiple validator and control 14% of all the stake and why is that because if you're a large entity or a hedge fund what all for the for the record all the ETFs if you have to stake Sumer who do you stake with with coinbase for let's say 4.1% apy or a random validator provider you don't really know about for another 0.1 or another 0.2% API and obviously that if you're a large actor you know your black rock your Fidelity you're any big company you will choose the lower apy with a brand name and a company and a public company you trust so it really feels like we glazed over all the you know nitty-gritty details we build this model oh of course Stak would just flow through the highest apy that makes sense no it doesn't work that way there are a lot of details along the way and so the fans say oh if we don't do this thing then this thing being Meed boost and PBS and separation of you know block Builders from proposers if we don't do this you know we'll totally centralize the the validator space I think it was wrong I think we should have done we shouldn't have done any of it and I'm saying it as whose company greatly benefits and I make a lot of millions of dollars from running this thing but if I care about Defi and I care about ethereum then no this was not the right choice and so let's take a slightly deeper look into that this is this is not known for many people outside really deep in the MV space we have three Builders okay iten beaver and rsync which are building 90% of all blocks the key and everybody are coming because V talic is like talking in 10 minutes I would have come too if italic was talking in 10 minutes um we have three Builders building 94% of all blocks the key and you could ask the builders what is the key to winning the blocks private order flow okay if there are three Builders and they all see all the blocks sorry all the transactions but they're going to build roughly the same block so they build a block it's worth a $100 and everybody have to bid 99.9% of the or 99.9 to the validator to capture that's kind of like according to the original Theory there'll be an auction they'll try to beat one another and all the value would go to the validator however if you're one of these validators and you got some private order flow somebody sent you transactions they don't even need to be interesting transaction they sent you $10 worth of transactions only to you you're only to a single builder at that point a you could out Beed everybody else so you could bid 10 in one you're guaranteed to win and also you just increase your margins you're going to keep $9 instead of like 10 cents so private orderflow is for for Block Builders is the single most important thing nothing is as important so I don't know if you can see the numbers here the three this is literally from today okay in the past 24 hours the top Builders kept to themselves numbers around here something like 150 E that's 15 50 e per day okay that's $250 million per year okay value that value does not come from public overflow public orderflow all the money actually goes to the validator so the only way for them to actually make prob in my language H load of money is to get private order flow so forget about public Comm people specifically apps sign deals with the builders okay it's like okay so hey Titan I am bought you know I'm popular B popular bot popular app X I will send my transactions only to you and the money you can make we split 50/50 or even 6040 like the split doesn't really matter but the point here is that the system that we built incentivizes signing deals with the block Builders now they're not actually making millions of dollars they're kicking back a lot of that value to whoever signed them their order flow but that means if you have three block Builders they're building 90 94% of all blocks that they're basically enshrined okay everybody have to send them if you're everybody have to send them their orderflow if you don't sorry everybody have to send them their transactions or bundles or order flow because if you don't you're not going to be included like if you want to actually land on CH you to send it to them and they have deals for private order flow because they're so big at which point you can't really beat them okay now I'm not even talking like does this lead to censorship um maybe um the original argument of vitalic literally spent an hour arguing with him about it was if a block Builder reject a transaction let's say it's worth a dollar then he's giving up $1 so it either cost him a dollar or he has to pay $1 but he has to pay this extra dollar every block to stop getting included okay so every block now it has to pay $1 and if he reject or censor another transaction $2 $3 $4 Etc to not include these transaction in every block therefore the argument was like they can they like at some point they create this critical mass where a different block Builder who isn't centering will include them however this assumes everybody sees all transaction Etc if block Builders have private order flow which only they get then I'm not sure that actually reaches a critical mass at which point okay sure there'll be a block we'll drink through them so that was less about the future of M this like okay here's where we are right now if you think this is great I disagree but like okay I outlined why I think our result isn't like we're not minimizing at we're maximizing it we tried to avoid latency and we really threw out all the good stuff and stayed with the bad things and we really treated me it's so big well really is a s off almost okay e stakers have1 billion dollar worth of Stak that is a lot of money okay predatory me so front running and sandwiching pays roughly a100 million per year $100 million per year is really really a lot of money for me for you guys for everybody not for all the ethereum stakers okay for them it's plus 0.1% API okay that is not a lot and so it isn't clear that me is a big factor we should change how ethereum Works in order to address what can we do okay going forward where does this take us for any there is a shortterm incentive problem that we can try to address because the long-term in incentive going back for a second the long-term incentive for validators is not to do front running and not to do sandwiching imagine a world where there's no front running and no sandwiching and defi just works and it flourishes and you know you actually get the current prices Etc defi will boom things would improve a lot of activity a lot of liquidity this will trickle down to the price of e how much I have no idea does it going to sorry increase it by 10% by 50% 2x 10x I have no idea but definitely definitely more than plus 0.1% API okay so for the validators the long-term incentive is not to front run and not to sandwich the problem is the shortterm incentive sure it would be great if we all don't do it but when it's my turn when I'm the proposer and somebody send me a trade like oh he's buying a million dollar worth of E I should sandwiching right I will buy just before him I will sell right after him and let's say I make $1,000 true that I destroy $10,000 but $10,000 destroy for everyone okay so I make a$ th000 and I destroy for myself like a cent okay and so the problem is not the long-term incentive the problem is a shortterm incentive to front language but maybe we can fix this okay it's ethereum have done some crazy stuff okay I don't know how many people remember here okay the nothing at stake problem EOS will never work or um oh etherum will never be able to switch from proof of work to proof of State okay we've done some impossible things and so can we fix m without breaking all the good things we built in ethereum I argue that we can not necessarily easy but let's not give up on it to say like oh for sure we need centralized Builders Etc um e Arrow which later rebranded to Eden Network tried to do something like that right they created a token and told the validator if you follow our rules you will get this token but that didn't work validator just flipflop if there's no m do whatever Eden want you to so you make money if there's bigger money sure just take the me so just flipflop so laughing a token without any thought on it doesn't work but can we fix it can validators make more money by sequencing transaction and charge for it let's say for real time execution so free comps is generally being talked around right now I had a long discussion on it with Justin Drake a really long time ago can validators make more money by sequencing transaction giving pre-confirmation instead of um I'm front running and sandwiching user maybe but the future of me is going to look very different from where we are right now okay that the currently we have large block Builders very centralized Etc I am not sure at all this is the direction we're just scratching the possibilities here so we started with M boost we thought this is going to be super critical to prevent centralization of validators but actually validators have and there St a lot much bigger bags to make ethereum better to make def5 better and so my final take here is that the future of me isn't in trying to maximize me it is incentivize validators to do the right thing and make ethereum most valuable thank you everybody and say hi to Vali for me actually you can say hi toic right now because he already joined us okay uh do you have any questions to URI I think no so thank you very much for joining us today thank you everybody okay so uh let's make some noise and invite our keynote speaker to the stage [Applause] um so the present and future applications of ethereum right um so ethereum has come a long way over the last 10 years um and one of the ways that I think about the difference between the last 10 years of ethereum and the uh next 10 years of uh ethereum is um that the last 10 years were about building basic infrastructure and Theory um and the next 10 years are about bringing ethereum to the world right so ethereum the project started at the end of 2013 the ethereum blockchain launched at the end of 2015 and then since then we uh started working on scalability proof of stake all kinds of topics and the merge the switch to proof of stake finally happened um about two years ago in September 2022 um we now actually have rollups we have much more scalability and the technical problems I would say a large portion of them have been solved a large portion of them still remain and I'll talk about those but we're very well on the path towards solving those problems and the bigger um challenge at this point is basically finishing out the Last Mile right like actually turning ethereum from being mostly a theoretical project to being one that really delivers real applications that benefit um a large number of real people right so this over here is a screenshot of ether tweet this is probably the earliest um ethereum based decentralized social projects that I know about this is something that was started in 2015 it was a very simple Construction basically it's like Twitter but where you a tweet bying the tweet on the blockchain um and you know you see here had very simple UI you have to run a node locally to connect with it your you have a username you have your ethereum address just like very simple website it just reads the chain and if you want a tweet you post to the chain this over here is a client called Firefly which is by a company called mask and Firefly is a actually a combined client of forecaster and lens which are probably the top two decentralized socials on ethereum today and of uh also Twitter right so actually a lot of the time when I like publish uh especially like tweets of my blog posts and uh you know you probably see them appearing on farter lens and Twitter at the same time like Firefly is how I do it right so Firefly is a really a great client and uh you should use it but you can also see how it's a vastly better UI right it's a UI that looks ready for like mainstream consumer use it's uh based on these uh decentralized social protocols that are themselves much cheaper and much easier to use and uh you know it has like actual benefits over top of existing uh centralized solutions that are like not even just theoretical but that are like actual real benefits today and uh so you actually see something that really feels like it's on the cusp of like actually being ready to take off right so the basically the challenge that we have for the next 10 years is figuring out how do we actually get there right so over the past 5 years surprisingly many ethereum user experience problems have already been solved so who here remembers sending transactions on ethereum back in 2019 now do you remember sending a transaction and then sometimes you get unlucky with the gas prices and you have to wait like 30 minutes for it to confirm okay now who here has had an experience of waiting minutes for a transaction to confirm in the last year okay so still a few but much fewer right who here over the last year has had a transaction confirm in like literally 5 Seconds many who here remembers having that experience 5 years ago fewer right now the reason why this is true is actually because of EIP 1559 right basically a lot of the time this gets narrativized as being about like the burn and you know like making eth ultrasound right but you know the main goal of this was basically a change in how the ethereum fee Market works that allows average transactions to uh get confirmed uh much um basically um almost always in um immediately the next block and the way that it does this is it basically mostly replaces the the transaction fee auction that we had before with a system where there is a base fee and your transaction can get in as long as it pays the base fee and that base fee adjusts over time to uh preserve some level of average usage transaction fees so back in 2019 2020 they were often $1 to5 per transaction now in 2024 especially post the Cancun Denon hard Fork that introduced blobs l2's transactions on them are regularly cheaper than 1 cent um transaction inclusion so 1 to 60 minutes before 5 to 20 seconds now on L1 usually and often actually 1 second if you're on an L2 wallet security back then we had EAS and now we have Smart contract wallets we have very widespread usage of safe we have increasing work in account abstraction we have increasing work in things like application keys so if you look at even forecaster for example forecaster has a separate key and so the way that I have it set up for me is that my primary multisig wallet is um actually only the backup address right and so my primary multisig wallet has the ability to reset the key but then the key that gets used dayto day is just a lower Security application key that's just stored directly on the uh desktop and the mobile right so you get convenience and you get secure account recovery so a lot of user experience problems in ethereum of compared to 5 years ago or even three years ago have actually already gone away right there's been a lot of already huge progress and I think we should all be uh very proud of that um another big uh CH in change to the ecosystem I think that has uh happened over the last five years is uh we've seen the rise of Z snarks and I think um especially in the space of more mainstream applications I believe Z snarks are an equally important ingredient to blockchains zigi Starks um are powerful for scalability so Z rollups use them um you know like plasmas use them a lot of applications use them but ziki snarks um also provide privacy right and privacy has Financial applications there's also non-financial applications so who who here has a zass okay a few people um so hopefully everyone will have a zass within a couple of years uh but uh basically it's a a zero knowledge identity system right so essentially you have a zup pass and then you locally have a like when someone makes an attestation about you so they make a signature saying this person attended the like this event this person is part of this group that information is something you hold locally and then you can use zero knowledge proofs to prove things about yourself so for example you can prove that you're a member of a group without revealing which member of that group you are um so there's increasing usage of this and um especially in these non-financial applications I think it's uh going to continue to become uh super important so one way to think about this practically right is just some of my personal experiences using applications so part part one back in 2019 I tried to use status which was which was a decentralized wallet and chat application messages just often did not go through like I would send messages and then those messages would just disappear I'd have no idea what's going on um 2020 I used augur to bet on elections in the interface sucked I spent over $1,000 on transaction fees 2021 I tried to pay people in person in Argentina the transaction fee was $5 it took more than five minutes to confirm um 2022 to 2024 I regularly used poly Market to bet against people with crazy political opinions turned $500 into 730 ux was amazing it felt like basically centralized uh you know like web to Quality um and with on polygon the fees were extremely low um 2023 regularly use ethereum for payments most payments confirm in 5 to 20 seconds um use Railway for privacy increasingly good user experience um use foraster and lens right um so decentralized social media that I talked about much better user experience finally two days ago I tried to use a new version of status and which has like basically I think after they kind of disappointed a lot of people five years ago they sort of went into a cave and they just like worked really hard on improving themselves and 5 years later they come out and they have something which is basically a decentralized wallet and I would like think of it as being a full decentralized alternative to tegram right so it has chat even has communities features it has like various Integrations you can have token gated communities like it has all of those things the ux is much better the reliability is much better and like I feel like actually comfortable that like this might actually be it and we might actually like be able to you know like move the ethereum ecosystem off of telegram dependence um so way better right we across all different application categories so that is how much things have improved right so then the question is uh like cross basically where are things going to go further from here right so Crossway are two issues um basically this is probably ethereum's biggest ux problem at the moment right basically that uh doing things between multiple l2s today is very inconvenient right um so the two cases that I usually think about for this one is payments right so I have coins on optimism you're on arbitrum I want to pay you and the other is sense to self right so for example poly markets on polygon I don't have any coins on polygon I have coins on base and I want to send to self to polygon so that I can use those coins inside of poly Market um then addresses um also don't tell you which L2 to pay on right so right now if someone gives you their address like you don't know if you're supposed to pay them on L1 or on optimism or on polygon and if you do the wrong thing sometimes your money disappears right so also a big ux problem um ERC 3770 which makes the chain a part of the address uh fixes this um Native withdrawal takes too long right so basically on an optimistic rollup withdrawing assets takes seven days on ZK rollups it's much better it takes 1 hour and eventually with the right technology we can be reduced to one slot and then um there's issues with smart contract while it's on layer 2 is basically if you have an individual or an organization they have a wallet on one L2 and they wants to use it on many l2s then if they want to update a key they have to separately send a transaction on every L2 this is like very inconvenient there's a design called key store rollups that can solve this problem right now if you want to solve the uh problem I'm at the top then we have uh increasing this um ERC 7683 standard which is basically a standard for cross L2 um order books right so essentially if you're a user then let's say you have coins on optimism and you want to pay someone who's on arbitrum what you basically do is you take your coins on optimism and you send your coins into a lockbox and what the lockbox does is it waits for someone to provide a proof that they paid you on arbitrum and uh once they provide that proof then they can have your coins on optimism so just like very simple limit order book and it's designed to be very extensible it's designed to work well um might be easy in a lot of ways and the idea would be that basically if you don't want to wait like time or if you don't want to pay L1 fees then you can just trade from one L2 to another L2 through this network and it can be much very efficient so that's 7683 um ZK proof aggregation right so uh this is one of those things that I think is going to really uh improve things not just for l2s but also for L1 prot other L1 applications that use ZK snarks basically the idea here is right that like why the l2s and like even ZK rollups so like why do they only commit like once an hour right and the answer is basically what they have to save on gas right a when you when an L2 makes a submission it has to include a proof and that proof it's itself is like very complicated often it takes like at least 500,000 gas sometimes 1 to 5 million gas to verify and they want to pay that cost as little as possible and so what we do instead is we can have a system where you have n different um applications that submit a list of statements and a list of proofs and then you have one um aggregator that takes those proofs and it makes a proof of the proofs right it makes one proof that proves that all of these proofs exist and then it says here are the statements and then here is one proof of all the statements and that gets published on chain and then you have a contract on chain that basically then sends a message to each of the applications that says here's a statement and uh and that statement has been proved so if you have this then you can have an unlimited number of ZK snark based applications and you would only have to pay 500,000 gas the cost of a snark every time once every time this mechanism commits to the L1 right so this is another one of those things that can really improve the experience for people wallet security um so account abstraction is making a lot of progress multi wallets are making a lot of progress has a safe okay see a lot of people right three years ago it would have been almost no one safe is like really amazing right and I think a big remaining challenge is like to make all of this very easy to use right so Guardians right basically a better alternative to centralized trust right if you have a wallet and imagine like you're not just a casual crypto user like literally 90% of your life savings are in crypto or um you know this isn't just your money this is like your identity route like if you lose this you lose your social media profiles right like imagine you have an account where like losing it is like really really really an extremely B bad thing for you then it becomes extremely important for this to be secure historically the solution to this has basically been to like tell people to do really crazy things like have a seed phrase and have like three offline computers and you know you do everything on your offline computer and then you put your seed phrase in a box that's made out of titanium so even if your house uh burns down like the seed phrase is safe and even if your house gets robbed like they can't open it and so on and so forth right and like these uh crazy things that like most individuals would not practically be able to do and like there's just too much of a risk that people will screw up right the other extreme is to basically give up on the whole like self- sovereignty thing and just have a coinbase account and have all your money on coinbase and like we've had these like two extremes where one of them is basically this extreme thing that's just unrealistic for most people and the other one is like okay let's trust a centralized actor and like let's say hm you know here's a guy named Sam he looks trustworthy he goes on P with people like Bill Clinton let me just put all my money on his exchange and then two years later this guy named Sam turns out to be Sam bakman freed and you know his exchange gets hacked and all your money is gone right and so we've been uh the the solution that is I think more um actually sane for people and that like that fits both with the ethos of decentralization and with practicality is uh this concept of multisig right basically you have some number of Guardians and you have some rule that like for example six out of eight of them can control your wallet right um so the big question here is like who do we actually make the Guardians be right and uh there's basically three types of Guardians um so the way basic one of them is your own devices right so if you have a a laptop and you have a phone then your laptop and your phone are two devices but of course you know you don't want to do a thing where like you have you accidentally have some like backup mechanism where like actually they turn into one device right so you could use your phone stressed Hardware you you could use laptop stressed Hardware um so you could potentially get a mobile um you know a specialized Hardware wallet um so your own devices are like one type of Guardian another type of Guardian is uh friends and family right so basically people that you trust and uh you they can each have one of these Guardian positions and they actually don't even have to know who each other are right like they can have instructions to like all contact your family if something happens to you but unless something happens to you like they don't have to know who each other are right they just uh you just talk to to them individually whenever you need some transaction signed and um a third approach is institutional Guardians right so institutional Guardians actually has two categories so you could have specialized Guardians so you could have companies that like explicitly offer kind of multi membership in a multisig as a service or you could have ZK wrappers of existing Services right so you could have there's something called ZK email which basically lets you create an ethereum address where you can only it's the ethereum address is an ERC 4237 smart contract wallet which can only send transactions if you give it a ZK AR proving that you authorized a me a a key with your by sending an email from your email account right so it basically like uses like htgps cryptography and like basically it comes with a proof that actually dkim signatures is what it uses right and so it basically authenticates Google signatures and um and then you're basically trusting you know that Google does the job of being an of like holding on to your account and helping you recover if something goes wrong there's a version of this for many different government ID services so like there's a non Adar which is a ZK rapper of India India's identity system there is a similar project for Japan I believe at least one person made a similar project for Ukraine um so there's um a lot of these right so there's like four at least four different categories of uh Guardians um so I think what the question is like what setups make sense right and I think for beginning users you probably just want like ZK rappers of email um you could do government ID I think if you want multiple factors but email is like the thing that's sort of more Universal across countries for paranoid users paranoid users are not going to trust your friends they're not going to trust institutions they're not going to trust anything even in an mfn and so for paranoid users you just like let them use their own devices and uh you know if they want to like buy like three phones and a laptop and Hardware wallets and put them into different places they can if they want to just have a two of three between a laptop and a desktop and and a seed phrase they can and that's fine for other Advanced users it's like basically whatever combination you want of devices friends and institutional Guardians right so the kind of future I want to see is basically one where like when you set up um you know who like you're safe you can set up like what the addresses are that control it and like you can put in ethereum addresses or you can put in email addresses and if you put in email addresses then it automatically gets converted into an ethereum address that is where that ethereum address is controlled by that email address using ZK email right um you could put in potentially other kinds of social media accounts uh potentially if we have some of these know decentralized social platforms then like you could even automatically just like recommend Guardians based on like contacts that you talk to often right so there's like a lot of there's ux work to be done here there's also just basic technical work in making all of these options as easy and as accessible as possible so that's the wallet security side fixing ethereum staking right so the main risk today is um centralization right so this includes centralized staking services this includes liquid staking this includes all of the issues that have to do with me and um ethereum staking centralization is bad in part because it leads to a higher risk of censorship on L1 in addition to this the ethereum staking protocol is over complicated it takes too long to finalize finalizing takes 15 minutes nobody wants to wait 15 minutes and security is suboptimal right like it turns out there's a bunch of reasons why the security proofs for um lmd ghost Casper only work up to like around 20% malicious and uh IDE what we want is 33% assuming asynchrony 49% assuming synchrony right like having both Bounds at the same time um so that's and if you ask people why don't you solo stake um this is a question I ask many people and I pull many people and uh by far the most common reason is they don't solo Stak because they don't have 32 eth another common reason is that running a validator node is too hard and there are various miscellaneous other reasons right actually like the for liquidity like turns out to not be super important um so this is another like those two problems are also problems that we really care about resolving now me centralization vectors right basically yeah one of the things that we've really been thinking about is basically what are the different roles that come in in as part of an ethereum Staker right and if you look at the trans the pipeline of a transaction and that transaction getting included on chain you basically you first have the block Builders right so the actors that are creating the block then you have the execution proposer which is the proposer of uh a like right now it's just the proposer of a block and then you have ATT testers and ATT testers are the ones who actually are then sign off on that block like over a thousand times in parallel right so in 2019 these were all basically one group right right now we have proposals like proposer Builder separation aester proposer separation that try to make SE separations between these and there's a basic desire to try to like basically take the parts of this that are more difficult to do and put them inside of an auction game um so if you want if you think you can do it better than everyone else you can compete and then put take the parts that are easy to do and separate them out and make them as accessible as possible right so that's the green parts now so Solutions right so if we want to make running a node easier veral trees and layer 1 ZK evm a tester proposer separation is uh really powerful uh for making uh reducing some of these centralization risks inclusion lists are a proposal where basically you separate out the role of choosing which transactions get included from the role of like choosing transaction ordering because choosing transaction ordering and being able to like pre-insert trans actions that's the thing that really like claim contains the most that's the thing where like there's a lot of opportunity to earn a lot more than someone else if you can create better algorithms right and so you separate that out and then you let other like a much more distributed um set of actors be responsible for choosing transactions that have to be included in the next block single slot finality basically replaces ethereum's consensus with something that is more similar to Tender but also not quite tender uh because we also need to add an inactivity leak mechanism so the chain can still work if more than a third of the validators go offline uh we also want to add better 51% attack recovery all kinds of things um and then redes some staking redesigns that allow validators with less than 32 eth to really participate equally yeah at the top level right so conclusions right so the future ethereum technology basically continuing to improve proof of stake continuing to deal with centralization risks um which include liquid staking which include meev related issues the main problem with l2s is basically to improve the Crosser 2 user experience right basically 20 ethereum l2s should not feel like today they feel too much like 20 separate blockchains they should feel like you're part of one ethereum ecosystem and I think a lot of the proposals that we have really uh come closer to bringing us there reduce the cost of running a node um account abstraction and improve wallet ux make it easier to use wallets and at the same time make wallets much more secure in a way that makes sense both for advanced users and paranoid users and normal people um ZK snarking everything right ZK snarks are huge for scaling and um like ZK rollups run entirely on ZK snarks ZK snarks are also very important for privacy right and privacy includes both Financial privacy and that is an increasingly big topic you know Leona talks about it a lot He also mentioned you know the Privacy pools projects that tries to um add like much better compliance options for privacy protocols while still preserving their privacy and so on and so forth right so a lot of different directions to still to still Advance on on the technology side on the application side I think uh continuing to make payments work more smoothly continues to be important right payments just continue to be the first and most basic app um more re Defi and Real World Finance interactions right so I think it would be interesting to see defi projects um like really uh Target use cases that are more connected to it could be traditional Finance but it could also just be other aspects of the traditional economy some of these exist like there's definitely Pro like Insurance projects that people in the developing world are already using today for like very regular um use cases like weather Insurance all kinds of different things um then ZK building up the ZK identity credentials at the station ecosystem um doing more ZK voting I mean I know raro is based here they uh they do some good work there's uh some Macy and the ethereum foundation like more and more good um ZK projects both for voting and for um attestations um games I think um know continue to be Val as an entry point but I just really continue to really wish that people you know make games that are not just like basically office gated casinos but that are actually fun and that are like actually fun even during a bar Market um because if you don't do that then like once the be Market comes everyone forgets your thing existed right um so don't do that uh but the more fun the better um and uh I think decentralized social is like increasingly successful right like people are actually using foraster like people are actually using lens um status like I actually think that like it it actually has a chance of like getting the ethereum ecosystem off of telegram dependence right and you like foraster I think is already moving quite far and uh reducing the ethereum ecosystems Twitter dependence um so I think uh like there's an actual opportunity to as an ecosystem to like really become much more self-sufficient and like become much more able to use our own technology which I think would be a really amazing milestone for the ethereum ecosystem to get to right and then once we do that then continue uh scaling all of these things up and continue scaling more of all kinds of use cases also things like Dows um and Dows can also use ZK voting um also all kinds of applications that like mix aspects of finance and non-finance um all kinds of things right and basically continue to make really make the ethereum application ecosystem really great and thank [Applause] you thank you very much so before moving to the Q&A session with Bal I would like to ask you to stay here because we really really want to do a group photo with all of you okay so please raise your hands okay there is no question okay false alarm hi and thank you that you come to ke in this time and I know that uh you was last year also how many Ukrainian projects do you know and which one maybe you following or some developers I mean like new protocol is obviously like very large right and they they've been doing um a lot of work in the of crypto AI intersection space and you know they've been interfacing with the ethereum ecosystem more and more um then I mean I know that in the hackathon I like last time there were a lot of uh like projects also some that we're trying to like interface between I me like Ukrainian digital government digital ID and the ethereum based ecosystem and uh I mean I know that people are still continuing to think about like what the right way to use some some of those uh ideas is um I mean I know there there's lots of uh individual ukrainians in all kinds of projects right so in the ethereum foundation there's at we at least um two that I know that I know about um then in I mean I know like some in at least like two in Flash blots some in various I knew that um you made big donation in the start of the war yeah thank you very much for this ask okay let's uh limit ourselves with few questions um vitalik uh again thanks for coming um was great to see you speak Ukrainian we would like to hear more of that you're doing well um what would you think of the current risks of having Luna 2.0 I think um I mean the way that these uh things usually work right is that like they're not a technical problem there's like a cultural problem right and there's like basically there's like a lot of actors that have these asymmetric incentives right because uh like if you're an influencer and you give people a way to like get plus 15% returns for like one or two years everyone thinks you're a hot shot right if you lose like 100% of everyone's money then like somehow like either people forget or like it's less than six times as bad right and uh so then the other problem that often happens is like these projects are often designed like they're basically ponies right like they be appear to become more and more and more successful until eventually the end comes and the pr is like that's a really long time right and uh a lot the there's this challenge in the ecosystem that like if you come out and you say like no actually like this thing that a lot of people are genuinely getting um excited about is like actually bad and it's going to break then you know you get accused of like being an ivory Tower elitist you know being kind of disconnected with people's uh with people's wishes and so on and so forth and like a lot of I think what happened in the last cycle is like a lot of people just uh kind of got depressed because they yeah they started like saying these things but then things like Luna just kind of kept on growing and then like eventually it collapsed but it like coll ended up collapsing pretty late right and now people do have more memories of uh that I think uh you know like obviously there is this I think kind of challenge in the ecosystem where like meme coins are like one of the more successful things right now and uh like okay like still get me wrong like I'm I'm not against people having fun right I'm uh I me I'm not against memes I mean you know I I still hold Doge um so how can I Hate meme coins when I hold Doge the yeah know that's like uh the the like the thing that I'm against right is like uh so have you watched like Star Wars episode 7 yes um like honestly like did Star Wars episode 7 deserve to exist toally the answer it's no right but like why did why did it exist anyway right basically what happened is that like first you had Star Wars episode four five and six which are like really amazing and like brilliant things and they got some money but they also earned a lot of Goodwill right the problem is if you have Goodwill and you're like thinking thinking about it from the perspective of like a money Optimizer right then as a money Optimizer like Goodwill is an illiquid asset right like you can't like go and like sell and like spend the money on like yachts and expensive sex workers right so you know you have to like convert the Goodwill into something more liquid right and so what you do is you just like basically spend a little bit of effort and like make something not very good and then people still buy because of the brand value right and like you're spend down all the Goodwill but like that's the point you're converting the liquid asset into the liquid asset right and I think like a lot of the parasitic activity that we see is like basically the same thing and uh like that's not technological issue right it's like uh like that's a cultural um issue and I think uh probably the the best thing that we can do on the cultural cultural side is like basically like we have to actually compete with the narrative right like I think a lot of people in crypto like the reality is it was a bar market for four years people are really I like desperate for like some kind of hope people don't want to just you know like see the space die and you know there's of people that are just reaching out for and like want some kind of narrative even if it just like feels like some kind of short-term drug right and like I think the space has to compete with we have to compete with that and we have to offer applications that are like actually get interesting to people and that are actually sustainable right and um I think the more we can do that like the Lunas will continue to exist right but like at least they will have less attention and we can [Music] combu they ATT and at the same time we can uh like you know hopefully you know the memory that people have of Luna andf and all of these things continues to stay alive then like the impact of these uh the next time actually will be much lower right so I think like that is uh like that is the big challenge for application developers right like um actually like actually compete with it and actually create something that uh know the the crypto world can get really excited about thank you okay and we have just last question h no I'm sorry I'm sorry we have a hard stop so I invite you to the stage to make a group photo so please stand up thank you very much for standing up and if you want to ask italic other questions you can stay after the group photo and do a small networking session e e w [Applause] [Music] with hey hey hey he he [Music] he [Music]