# Cypherpunks unite│Panel│ETHDam 2024

- Channel: [CryptoCanal](https://streameth.org/cryptocanal)
- Date: 2024-10-07
- Duration: 42:21
- Watch: https://streameth.org/watch/yt-BXd89dQQ1ZU
- YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXd89dQQ1ZU

## Description

“Cypherpunks unite” with Joel Valenzuela from Dash, Kieran Meskita from Railgun, and Amir Taaki from DarkFi at ETHDam 2024. Moderated by Justin Bons from Cyber Capital.
https://twitter.com/TheDesertLynx https://twitter.com/mesquka https://twitter.com/Narodism https://twitter.com/Justin_Bons https://twitter.com/Dashpay https://www.dash.org/ https://twitter.com/railgun_project https://railgun.org/ https://twitter.com/DarkFiSquad https://dark.fi/ https://twitter.com/CyberCapital https://www.cyber.capital/

Sterling Schuyler - MC of ETHDam, copy and content writer for emerging fund managers & crypto enthusiasts.

ETHDam - a conference and hackathon held in the heart of Amsterdam, Netherlands from April 12th to 14th, 2024, celebrated its second edition, gathering more than 600 participants. 

In the dynamic space of ETHDam, privacy and security took center stage, featuring groundbreaking discussions on hacks, recovery, and the revolutionary work of figures like Pertsev. Privacy is dead in crypto, people that know, know. People who don’t know, should know. 

ETHDam is powered by CryptoCanal, an education and events platform growing in Amsterdam, spreading its roots to Rotterdam and Zürich.
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0:00 Intro
2:04 Defining Cypherpunk
7:03 Discussion on the state of the Cypherpunk movement today
17:24 Discussion on the need for user-friendly technology and meaningful use cases
21:07 Current state of the industry
29:48 Evolution of technology and the free software movement's vision
36:42 - Usefulness of meme coins.
38:34 - Promoting freedom in the world.
41:04 - Resources available on the DarkFi website.

## Transcript

[Music] individuals excellent these three individuals are our heroes as far as I'm concerned I know you can be humble that's fine but but to me these guys are the real heroes and I just I just want to drive that home and for different reasons I'm just going to introduce each and then I'm going to shut up and let and and and let these guys do the talking so first of all Joel who you've had her talk and obvious ly what I really admire about Joel is he did the hard thing and he's living off crypto and and rejecting that dirty Fiat that's that's what he's doing and we can really admire that he's done that the hard way and really stood for what he believes in there and that that that makes me admire this man a lot so you should all appreciate that he's here today okay Karan rail gun is a privacy protocol built on top of ethereum and that is that is like absolutely critical if we want to achieve real privacy in cryptocurrency so you know everyone praised this man as well and last up last but not least is amaki who when I first joined Bitcoin and cryptocurrency in 20134 when I was a little baby bitcoiner this is one of the guys I really looked up to and he was one of my heroes and this is a man who's fought for freedom in many different ways and he's he's he's done a lot of sacrifice and he's done a lot of hard work for where it counts for very little glory for this space so I think you should all get to know amaki better as well and um this is the moment when I uh Retreat and let the cipher punks do the talking thank you hi right it's a couple questions first first is it just one microphone today okay second oh there's two more coming more coming all right that's fine second um what do you want us to talk about since I'm moderator let's start with what is what does it mean to be a cipher Punk like how would you define that what does that mean to you I mean it's it's easy to say the word and virtue signal but what does that actually mean I'll let the other end of this start here Amir so um CER punk you know it to understand it I think we should look at the history so it comes from the cyberpunk movement and you know then with the development of cryptography in the '90s there were people who were heavily influenced by cyber Punk and they said oh we can use cryptography as uh a means to you know fight against this uh surveillance system I just want to uh note that about uh cyber Punk is that it's always very dystopian so that's maybe that's some kind of trap as well that we kind of need to think how to escape from all this if you look at all the Cyber Punk uh literature and movies you know there's some all perveance surveillance all pervasive surveillance State you know oppressing people and there there are Freedom Fighters living on the edge of society you know resisting heroically against the odds um against that and we kind of um see this mental trap today when we like look at you know a lot of the the Cyber Punk type uh products that are in the market and they will have like you know um they will go like oh you don't want the state to spy on you and it's it's very negative um you know uh emotion that they're tapping into where you know we end up responding against that so uh you know for punk you know it's it's part of our Legacy but it's it's also a mixed Legacy and I I just wanted to offer that critique yeah um I mean I guess you know just carrying forward from the um solar Punk Luna Punk panel right um we've got two components of the word Cipher Punk uh Punk being um I kind of like a means uh definition for it you know sort of a moral entrepreneur right um pushing uh some of the the the boundaries um on the ethical side of things um in a good way not in a bad way um and and uh the the cipher thing um obviously relating to cryptography so uh you know Cipher Punk movement trying to um you know uh promulgate uh cryptography as a as a tool for extending uh some of the rights to privacy and uh security that we enjoy in the physical world um over onto the uh digital world as well yeah so I never signed up to be a cyppher punk I never thought of myself as one I'm just a user and I want freedom I want maximum freedom and I use the tools that allow me to have that but I guess how you could kind of break that down is pretty much everyone in here can probably use their bank card to buy 99% of the things they want right now and that's that's freedom I guess but it's Freedom that you're allowed by someone who could restrict it they could sensor your bank account they could do whatever else and so for me like the cyppher punk the the punk part is making sure you have that freedom whether or not people would Grant it to you willingly and the cipher thing just is like I've been part of like the the Freedom Movement for longer than I've been in the crypto movement and it's a tough losing battle to be protesting to be going through legislatures and public policy and writing papers and things tanks that's a tough battle and I think that the renewed fight for human Freedom across the world has owed its thanks to technology radical technology new decentralized tech permissionless tech as it were that kind of gives us the tools to not just have to ask permission to be free but to actually be free so basically Freedom Tech users or pushers of Freedom Tech is kind of how I Define it okay I'll I'll asked another question since the uh Cipher Punk Manifesto was written I believe it was in the 1980s if I'm not miss 92 thank you um since that was written and since we've had Bitcoin and since we've had all this explosion of cryptocurrencies how do you feel about the cipher Punk movement today and where that is at I guess we'll just do wave format right here here and then back so I kind of I think it's strong and healthy in all the right ways it's definitely not it's definitely but split around a little bit before you know in the early days I in crypto World especially uh it was like a lot of Hardcore bitcoiners and Bitcoin movement was very heavily cyer Punk and then a lot of those ended up shifting a lot of those are still in BTC by the way which is a little surprising to me but it is what it is right but then you have a lot for example many of them sort of shifted over into Monero and then the other sort of privacy type protocols seems like privacy is a a key area where you kind of see all of this um it seems to be less from as my like almost external perspective to be the principles are alive and well but they're very distributed now it's not like you have this Core group of people as much that are the same movement that are all aligned on principles that are all pushing this it seems like you have pockets of people here and there and a lot of people like for example just to randomly mention someone like Paul who's on the last panel sitting right here I would call him like an absolute cber Punk but he's also you know a tech business person you know in California right and it's a lot of people made have might have sort of dispersed into the greater Nori World maybe but I I think the principles are very strong and alive at least that's my impression a lot of it seems to have like grown up in some ways or just dispersed and not been just this one kind of cohesive group anymore that's just my impression I could be very wrong though um yeah I think okay um probably docks my age a little bit here I'm I'm a little bit too young to have been around um with the OG Cipher punks um but um I I think like a lot of that um movement like I found quite inspiring um you know like reading up on the whole crypto Wars and um the fight to like um have cryptography like actually publicly accessible and not classified as um you know on the same grade as like a nuclear bomb or something like you know um mathematics is not a weapon um but uh you know like nowadays I think the the movement has sort of grown a lot uh in some ways right you know cryptocurrency has has brought a lot of people in um but it has also in some way sort of diluted the values um a lot and and this like guess there's benefits to um having sort of like a big tent movement uh you end up having a lot of supporters but at the same time um you know you can't really like you got to make sure you don't lose focus on um like what you're actually here for like what what matters um so I'm going to provocate a bit because first of all about Freedom um freedom is deeply connected with the concept of Nature and when we talk about nature we're not talking about the number of trees in the same way when we talk about Humanity we're not talking about the amount of people um you know nature and freedom is um you know about a society that is is striving it's moving up it's ascending and our role as revolutionaries is to increase that which is true and beautiful and good and you know when um you know Bitcoin in 2011 2012 was invented many of us saw that it was an inevitability that had finally arrived something that was the herald of a new age that we would just need to sit back relax and it would play out and that's exactly what everybody has done and in and yet in and and the promise of cryptocurrency was that it would um you know it's it's it's a it's a highly liquid uh form of money that can be sent anywhere in the world it's something that allows people to evade um you know paying fees to your local nation state um and it's something that essentially renders the business model of nation states Obsolete and yet in we're here in 2024 and that Vision has still not materialized so something went very wrong there and you kind of you you you see it here in this conference where there is a lot of you know talks about Regulatory Compliance and crypto regulation is an open and official provocation against Liberty and sovereignity and all who advocate for it are domestic enemies of the people and must be absolutely opposed you know the right of people to use and to deploy cryptography is something that should not be infringed and right now we are essentially uh trapped inside of the cycle of Industry where we look at you know big Tech surveillance capitalism and we go that is the gold standard for how we need to operate and as a result we're not able to construct the technologies that people need those people they create Technologies to enslave people that's why it's this very dystopian vision of Technology where you have a product and everybody is reduced down to essentially uh cattle or sheep that are to be hered using psychological techniques to extract value out of society and you know that it's not a user base that's impowered and that's why our the products we're creating are so bad is like and we haven't been able to deliver that power into the hands of people it's it's a mental trap we're actually enslaved we who claim to be fighting against the system are actually ENT trapped by the system and you know everybody when you speak to every body um you know everybody feels in the next 5 years or so there is going to be a major event of macroeconomic of or political significance we don't know what it is but we know that there is some impending thing happening about to happen and it's reflected in the media it's reflected in the Sci-Fi which you know you compare it with the Sci-Fi from the '90s and sci-fi which was all really optimistic you know uh with like visions of the future and now it's like all very brooding and and you know depressive and dystopian so everybody um everybody feel every widely in society there is this pervasive mistrust of the elites and yet yet you come to conferences you know this is not the worst this is qu this is quite good but you know a lot of crypto conferences where you know privileged uh people working on technology are are saying like oh Regulatory Compliance and and yet that is not what the people are are feeling the people you know the fact is that that there's so much uh media um about criminals and I'm not saying that we're criminals we're very different from criminals but the fact that there's so much media glamorizing criminals just shows that people have this instinctive feeling that um that there is a occupation by the nation state into our lives it's a foreign an occupier it's no longer something that holds legitimacy so clearly the overturn window wind window has shifted and to really take advantage of that we need to Rally we need to mobilize we need to step up and so far it's not good enough what we're [Applause] doing this is why I love Amir Taki really the heart and soul of this movement is is right here on this stage now another question if I were to um paraphrase the um the cipher Punk Manifesto A little bit I think one of the parts that I feel that's often forgotten as part of this movement is I think that and correct me if I'm wrong but I think the cipher Punk movement was about uh a widespread adoption of privacy preserving Technologies and freedom Technologies I think in this industry we tend to forget about that widespread part of that definition go ahead yeah well I could actually start this then that's kind of a little bit how I've sort of shifted over the years a little bit um i' in 2015 as many people know I um stopped earning fiat currency only earned crypto since then in 2016 I closed my bank account thinking like oh I'm going to be you know Mr safer punk you know live off the stuff um the interesting thing though is and I have to be slightly self-critical in this way but also a lot critical of a lot of people I like to to a greater degree is at some point um we're laring laring is liveaction role playing and as much as like literally everything Amir said is like spoton in my heart you know it's like Yay preach preach how many people who fist pump to that still have bank accounts how many people have all their money still in confiscate assets how many people you know still use Google Maps to get everywhere how many people you know do all those things or how many people also maybe in their personal life sort of reject all those things and then they they have a very limited kind of life where they get to feel morally Superior on the internet while the rest of the people the planet the human species then just is still living in the same kind of enslavement that the very privileged few get to pontificate against because they have the circumstances in life and the lack of family to feed etc etc that lets them you know play like hardcore Cipher nerd on the internet a little bit I'm being again I'm I'm being a little dramatic to sort of emphasize the point but at some point this stuff needs to make the human race better off or it is [ __ ] pointless and so as much as you know I kind of had to kick my own self in the ass a little bit because there were a few years in there where I was feeling too comfortable being like Oh I'm hanging out with my libertarian buddies in New Hampshire and I get like this guy will sell me you know goats milk for crypto and this one will do this and I have an arrangement with that like oh like look I'm so fun and pure I'm doing all this stuff but what does it serve the world nothing absolutely nothing and then okay I can podcast about it you know I love you know love to podcast that's that changes the world I mean a little bit but like for the most part at some point I think at some point we need to start onboarding new users and a lot of new users are not just people who are willing to go through the annoying hurdles that we did that are willing to have like a million different viip numbers and all this kind of stuff and graphing on your phone and sometimes that as great as that is to promote at some point we need scale we need to start not just and part of that of course is the scaling debates and I think that a lot of the going to make everyone angry today um I think a lot of the um uh Bitcoin and ethereum to a lesser extent but most Bitcoin to begin with the scaling restrictions happened partially because of outside economic for is trying to take things over but also because of the useful idiots of the cipher punks of the people that are saying I want to run my note at home I like my little thing I want to keep LARPing as a cyberpunk the whole rest of the world they don't matter it doesn't matter if this Freedom technology never gets out there doesn't matter if everyone else is using Fiat except me I get to run my note and rebalance my channels and all the this kind of stuff and because of this the world should suffer because of my privilege the world should suffer and I just reject that and I have to admit this is a difficult balance because it's two opposite things the more principled you are the more lonely you are the fewer people can do that the harder it is at some point at the other end is full kyc lack of self- custody everything which is no the answer is not to that at some point we have to find the spot where we can cause the most aggregate freedom to the most of the human race and of course if you get if you onboard everyone to a custodial solution sure you touch everyone but you touch everyone in a not very meaningful way if you have absolute folks comp everyone compiles their wallets from the source code and does everything else and there's like 300 people that do that that's like the maximum for like very few people so somewhere there's a math math equation of total freedom it's like the M the freedom Factor multiplied by numbers of people that are using this equals total freedom at some point we have to be have a hard look at ourselves and I don't know the answer by the way I'm not talking to like I know where this is but we have to find the way to maximize the total freedom for the human race otherwise our principles are on the whole meaningless even if we personally like them um all right I'm sorry that's that's a hard one to follow um like meme coins right so chose the right direction I why is that the only thing that like we seem to be able to build that has any semblance of mass adoption um I like I I thing I I think the problem here is yeah as you said the the only thing that um well okay user experience sucks right in crypto um and for for things where like maybe the benefit's not so obvious we're not going to be able to get very many people to um jump that hurdle okay and now right user experience sucks but like what is the thing that that gets people to jump that hurle all right fine it's mem coins or it's basic number go up right so now everyone's building for number go up faster right okay now we're like we're optimizing for number go up faster which means user experience where everything else sucks even more and now we've got an even higher hurdle and like how long have we had 12 words for like that can we can we get something better already um I I think I think the the problem here is just the incentives at the the moment are just so messed up that we're end up optimizing and we're going so like laser focused but literally laser focused in some cases um right on on these like completely pointless you I mean the funny but they're completely pointless use cases um can we devote some effort into something actually useful please yeah so there's two things here that I want to the first was the question about you know how do we step up the second was about this obstacle which was framed in terms of you know ABS Purity towards absolute privacy and and then compromise which I think is mistaken but about that second thing which I address first so I spent many years in the free software mov mement uh you know squatting buildings we would squat buildings we would you know create these communities where anybody could come they could work on political technology and we put a lot we'd invest a lot of energy into creating these communities and our idea was that you know that people would come there that their minds would be opened and they' go this is a really good idea and somehow this idea would would infect people seeing how we live would kind of infect people and it would it would organically spread now I I when I went I went to when I went to Syria you know it was an eyeopener because I went there as an activist and who who is very much into into this idea what he mentioned meme coins mimetics this is a very fashionable thing in protests these days like if only we can get the catchy slogan that can that that spreads and and everybody and then suddenly we have free Society but what happened in Syria was that the government imploded and the Kurds which had a organized movement a Cadre 10,000 Cadre who had been fighting turkey for you know decades studying political philosophy in the mountains really well organized really well disciplined were able to go into that chaos and they were able to mobilize people they were able to arm people form them into self-defense committees um organized Society along the the um the arms of you know economics education healthare and and it was very ey opening because I was able to see firsthand how a new government is constructed or how Society forms itself from zero and the thing is is to you know um it's not a tendency to between it's not com it's not about compromise or about um you know having a having an ideology or or having firm principles it's it's about it's I'd say it's it's about are you living a lifestyle or are you working towards like a higher purpose or a higher sense of Ideal and this is this is something that has infected politics this like very hyper individualist it's it's something from liberalism from the system which it says like oh you know don't try and change the world that that's mistaken that failed in the past look at communism no just try to change yourself try and change your hair color you know your bits or your fashion but that doesn't change anything fundamentally so you know like and and that that that tendency is it's called lifestyl ISM and but it and and so I I I it's it's positivism is a tendency where you go oh humans you know they just they they operate like you know mechanical machines and you know um you know you give them this Meme and they do that and you give them this other meme they operate in a different way but but people also driven by stories by narratives and you know we can can work you can have movements which are not driven by by just immediate self-benefit you can't there have been many times in history where people came together around a common shared sense of purpose shared ideas and they tried to put that into practice to give really practical examples in the domain of Technology you know I when I was when I was a teenager I discovered about open- Source software and I and my friend said to me in school he said oh have you tried Linux and I was like Linux what's that and he was like oh it's an operating system I was like an operating system and he was like yeah you you know you've got windows and stuff on your computer you can change that you can put other ones on it I was like whoa really and he was like yeah and and this one it's made by people all around the world like people together contributing code building the technology I was like wow that sounds incredible and the more I went into it I was like wow this is the new economy on the internet people building this technology and I read the manifesto of Richard stowman which is a Manifesto for free software where he was like he where he was saying we can build a vision of Technology that's liberatory and as a 16 15y old that uh that blew my mind and I was like wow this is this is something I'm going to devote my life to furthering this is something an exciting project that I want to be involved in another example is the Silk Road I remember remember when the Silk Road first came about you know it wasn't just the marketplace I would meet people that didn't even know that I was working on bitcoin just random people who would say to me oh yeah there's this marketplace where you can buy and sell everything and it's undermining the governments and people saw that as a sense of purpose and Dread pirate Roberts he had manifestos on the front page and people were really in infused by that vision and ideal so that's the the first thing but about this second thing so you know there's this there's this everybody knows that the software we're using today is slower the computers have got faster but somehow the software is sluggish it's slow it's less responsive and and also the cool technology that we saw in the movies of the '90s or the 80s the cool future that we were promised never materialized you kind of see the desire in in cryptocurrency projects where it they'd kind of make this like terminales like this this like UI that looks like old keyen uh uh you know keyen crackers or or terminals but it's in a web browser so it's like a simulacrum of of this old of this uh vision from the '90s and um also I read a headline recently and it said gen z um they don't know how to use a file system and they can't use printers so they've actually like regressed in terms of techn techology have gone backwards so um you know when I was uh um when I initially was working in Bitcoin um in when I go into Bitcoin in 2010 2011 everybody was like you know like constantly talking about the evil the central bank and there was this like singular Focus or Vision that we need to like destroy the state but then um you know as Bitcoin started to grow bigger in 2011 they started to become all these business guys and like all the all these like and and the main narrative at that time which now in Bitcoin is like it's cool to be a cipher Punk who is is against the system but back then the main narrative is like oh we need to get the big Banks involved and you know we need uh uh the regulations and everybody was talking about Mass adoption and I'd get people who who would come up to me at conferences and they go like ohir you know you're a develop you're devel veler you're an expert in writing software but I am an expert in marketing and let me tell you how marketing and like you know we need to appeal to the masses we need to get mainstream Mass adoption so there's always this Mass adoption Meme and that is something that really killed the free software movement the free software movement in the early 90s had this idea that we were going to build uh a a uh operating system free software that would bring freedom to society and that was like a Grand Vision or a grand purpose and you know everybody started building that and as it started to get bigger all these business guys started to come in like happened in early history of Bitcoin and they started going oh you know talking about freedom is scary it's going to scare away the business people it's going to scare away the investment so we actually have to get rid of the ethics and we have to focus on utilitarian things and that was the birth of Open Source open source was about saying uh it's not about Freedom software it's just the open source is cheaper it's more secure blah blah blah and then what happened is we got rid of the the ideology part of free software and then um you know all the big business and the money started to flow into open source and then around 2000s you know um everybody was you know to that was the big thing Mass adoption of open- source software and you got things like uh auntu come along and this is kind of where Linux went wrong because they kind of looked and they said oh what's the gold standard the gold standard is Windows it's Mac and it as opposed to Linux which was very Innovative in the early '90s there was creating software of technology that people were like whoa I could not imagine this software could exist post 2000s it became derivative it started just it started just playing catchup and the thing is is that Market of you know like mainstream uh uh normies that you know are completely disempowered is already captured by big Tech you know surveillance capitalism and you know the the freedom software has a completely different Market I see now that there is a change happening in Linux a kind of Linux Renaissance where there's a soul searching moment where people are kind of going okay what was it that initially gave us power in the first place what was it that was allowing us to innovate and deliver technology um that the the you know the expanded the design space and you're you're seeing now that there's this realization okay a Linux it's not a Mac and it's not a Windows it's a Linux Linux has a fundamentally different economic value proposition to Windows or Mac when you use Windows or Mac you are a customer and there is a cooporation and you are taxed by that Corporation it's the same with any proprietary software product that you use but when you use Linux you are part of a community you are not just a user you are also a developer you are a participant in developing that piece of technology in fact that piece of technology is an aspect of an economic Network it the technology it exists to build infrastructure to allow communities to band together to have power and to have economic power that is not what that other types of products are aimed towards and when we base our development decisions off of off of those other products we're essentially and this is this is the problem with crypto now where you know we're stuck in this Paradigm where we're like okay and this this is why the and I explain the whole Paradigm how it starts like you start you start you you you have an idea and you you you grab some cheap devs and you get them to hack up a proof of concept and you know you go to parties with all the core VCS and you know maybe you take drugs with them and then they go oh yeah let me write you a check and they give you like some money and then you you use that to hire marketers you don't really hire devs because you're not really Building Technology you hire marketers and you send them to conferences and you know they give speeches Circle and you know you keep pumping you keep pumping the thing I do want to interrupt you because we need to make sure you have time to speak later but what I would like to do now cuz we have a lot of questions in the in the slido if we can pull that up and uh and we can knock out maybe one or two oh yeah also we did this poll um our meme coins the path to wider adoption I'm really happy to hear that most of you feel that no use case is important so uh if we can go ahead and switch to the questions and then if you we can do maybe maybe one or two sure let's see here um I need to stand up to see this and I'll read it out for you so you guys don't need to do you agree that there's too much compliance too little counter economics and agorism in crypto oh and also a round of applause for Amir for his stance come on all right to answer the question yes okay Karan yes Amir yeah I'd let them talk go answer let's just go to the next question so we can save some time here uh why are meme coins not useful you make what is okay you make money and and at the same time stress tests the network that is useful for sure I'm not going to deny that it's not important to what I care about but it's important to what other people care about I'm not here to tell people what they and can't do that's not very safe for Punk yeah um I I think there's there's two things to want this right so like one sure yes it does stress test Network and all but like in in terms of like the people actually like using the meme coin like they just have it sitting there on a wallet and they're like hidden Refresh on the price all day right that's really like how how does that make your life better um maybe the joke's funny right um and then the other side of it was you know like number go up right and like fundamentally I think just like a pure redistribution of wealth system like it's just one person wins the other person loses this again same deal how is that making people's lives better I yeah I mean as a builder of technology I can easily be resentful against meme coins that seem to have like usurped with no work you know easy uh path to wealth but I do have like artist friends who were telling me for more than a year going oh yeah uh Sonic Obama Inu coin is is going to be big and they were like big Believers in it and indeed like just suddenly shut up recently and I was like how did they even know about this stuff so there is I'm from my experience trading I'm always hesitant to completely dismiss things that I don't understand and I don't I understand Tech but I don't understand like art and meme coins and NF it's not my area it's it's hard to bid on stupidity sorry um this is actually I had the same question actually some glad someone else uh brought it out oh the it's gone actually well I'm just going to repeat the question what I saw what are the practical things people can do today as users and as developers to help promote more freedom in the world yeah we got to think about the principles of what we're trying to accomplish here and the second part is we have to actually make those work so there's a a Morton Blackwell quote I'm very fond of which is you owe it to your philosophy to study how to win notice you have to have a philosophy first and you have to apply it but then you have to study how to make that win so I would encourage anything that removes a part of someone's life from the control of the powers that be um get anyone you know use it try it like hey download signal encrypt your messages start off there oh VPN okay very small stuff you know but then download a crypto W that's self- custodial learn about it buy something from your Lo ifin your local farmer to do that and start off small at some point if you're very committed to what you're doing you have to figure out how to make it when and you have to ask yourself is it winning and if it's not you can't blame like that's the thing with the meme coins I don't care for meme coins right but I can't blame them because if I can't compete with meme coins it's my fault it's not their fault it's not therefore they took away all the no I didn't do a good enough job to compete against them either they're they're there and they're always going to be there and that's fine or I lost to a meme I lost to a dog with a hat right and so a lot of us lost to dogs with Hats take it oh he take the hit Shake It Off come back and learn from it we could not about it at least Karen um well go see my talk from yesterday uh there's yeah if you're using like if you're an online user right there's a whole bunch of alternatives to you know Common services that I went through and my own experience using them um make the switch and then two go delete your bank account and follow like this guy's videos and yeah for that [Applause] okay I'm here um if you go to the darkfy website and you go to our docs we and you click the hamburger on the left we have a section called learn and that's a full course that you can use to learn about political philosophy to learn about um uh uh de development to become a developer to equip you with the tools of power um and we also offer ship for people so essentially you have to become become a leader you have to learn political philosophy read Manifesto for a democratic Civilization by aelan Learn Python Programming and um and then also in terms of work there is there is no shortage of of things we need to to create or things we need to develop well said I think that's that'll be the last one right yes that sounds good good another round of applause for our panelists [Applause] here and one more round of applause for Freedom come on here we go we're in a good good company here yes awesome [Music]