# Are L2s parasitic to L1s ? Where are we heading with L2-centric strategy ? - Channel: [ETH Warsaw](https://streameth.org/eth-warsaw) - Date: 2025-10-07 - Duration: 54:14 - Watch: https://streameth.org/watch/yt-CcurI3jmys8 - YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CcurI3jmys8 ## Description This Panel will discuss the current state of L2s wrt to fees that are paid to L1. These are the example of questions that will be explored: - Can settlement fees cover L1 expenses ? - Are we not pricing L1 enough ? - Do L2s actually need Ethereum-native assets ? - Is L2-centric strategy sustainable ? And in general - with the competition from L1s such as Solana, has Ethereum put too much emphasis on L2s neglecting L1 ? 🧜🏻‍♀️ ETHWarsaw is a series of educational and entertaining events for an active community of blockchain builders, developers and enthusiasts with focus on Ethereum-related tech. Once a year, we organize a large conference and hackathon for the community in the center of the Polish capital with speakers from the best web3 projects and participants from all over the world. Follow ETHWarsaw on social media for the latest updates! X (Twitter): https://twitter.com/ETHWarsaw LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/ethwarsaw Telegram chat: https://t.me/joinethwarsaw See you all at our events in Warsaw 🙌🏻 ## Transcript I think we can start uh my name is BK I'm from L2 beat uh if you guys don't know what L2 be is uh we are like a community Watchdog we're essentially here to watch the uh uh L2 space and make all the projects accountable so the users don't have to worry so much about it and uh they don't have to look at U underlying trust assumptions so we engage with every single other two project and um I do have a wonderful panel today with uh different uh hopefully uh views so I will start by by like introducing um panelists uh in Not So Random order I guess uh because there's a certain purpose here because each one of them uh hopefully uh will give you a different viewpoint on what I think you know uh is an important topic which at the end of the day uh we should be all interested in and that is uh whether the ethereum is actually doing the right thing with its current strategy because if it's not then you know you guys may uh be on the wrong conference Al together right so I I will start with Kuba the guy uh in the college shirt because hopefully he will help me to challenge all the other panelists as he's not running an L2 if I um uh understand correctly so so what are you doing kubar here uh so I'm like a simple Builder and basically with a team we're building something that some time ago aspired to become l2b for defi which is like we're monitoring defi space uh throughout mainnet and throughout the layer twos so probably this is the perspective that I offer as is defi in the ecosystem but if I understand correctly you will also represent users here right yes yes so a little bit different Viewpoint than mine but definitely you know from the point of view of someone who's actually using those l2s uh then we have guar um if I pronounce the name correctly with the proper French R um trying really hard it's not easy but um my understanding regard is that you're actually working primarily in a star net system um and starkk net for I mean probably you should all know that but these guys are one of the very first rollups on ethereum not the first one but you know one of the first and interestingly enough um I mean I've been working with the team for for a long long time and um they are known primarily um because you could argue that they're not particularly aligned with ethereum because they're not EVN you know they've got their own Prov you know it's like I mean starnet if you have ever done anything on stet is just different right it's just different however this is L2 so you've got an we've got the real L2 guy here well I mean in my case I'm not with starware I run a venture studio and we help people build applications specifically on stocket which is even better no I mean like at the end of the day I would not say that they are they are misaligned I think they they are very aligned with the ethos they just do things differently and the big question is whether or not it will work but they took bold beds fundamentally by like starting with different languages and different VMS okay so we we we like people who think thinks differently you know I mean they can like push you know the discussion forward okay now I'll move to mik uh you might have seen Marik with his uh previous presentation obviously the the head of cell cell very old blockchain uh started when in 2020 2020 uh when networ launched just feels like 20 years ago pre pandemic well actually it was the start of the pandemic yeah yeah exactly anyway I mean cell is interesting because um it's been running its L1 for a couple of years and quite recently uh you guys have announced uh that you actually want to become an L2 so it's like you're on a journey from being an L1 to to nl2 absolutely I think we're big Believers in this idea that e is going to become the settlement layer of web 3 we're doing our part and um and uh yeah we're excited for that future um yeah c for those of you who's not familiar it's a it's an evm compatible uh chain focused on mobile payments primarily and because it is evm compatible um you know we firmly believe that in this day and age being an evm compatible alt L1 just doesn't make sense there is an ethereum scaling road map if you're excited about evm you should be a rollup or an L1 sorry L2 okay and uh last but not least we've got Damian here and um representing C zero uh if I understand correctly you guys are running L1 chain again uh but it's not like you're trying to become or migrate to L2 like cell but you've just launched an L2 so now you've got the both of the Best of Both Worlds right you've got both L1 and L2 like why yeah exactly so yeah we have been running the L1 chain which is non evm for two years now and now we have decided that there this is the time for expansion to evm so we are seeing the potential uh I agree with uh with have some uh voices here that yeah this is this is uh ethereum is probably um the settlement drer for web 3 this is this is what uh what is happening so yeah we must be in evm uh we must contribute to evm and uh what we are doing is privacy Solutions so this is this is what we are trying to contribute and our way in is essentially launching an L2 okay so this is atting a stage so now you know the participants we've got users we've got a particular L2 or at least you know the developer on L2 and we've got essentially two l2s trying to either migrate to be uh sorry to l1's trying to either migrate to be in L2 or trying to to to like have both L2 and L1 to but um but the topic uh is more serious and I will do a very very short uh like a history lesson of ethereum for those that are not like spending 100% or 150% of your professional time uh following this uh quickly changing space so back in the day ethereum of proof of work and it was uh single-handedly killed by crypto kitties right so nobody was happy at the time and and I think uh ethereum researchers started to uh work almost like simultaneously on moving to proof of stake but also on a sharding uh road map and I'll come back to that in a moment uh it took them a long long time uh to to think about how you should do sharding um and at the same time you know projects like Nia you know have already developed sharding but ether was still debating you know how to do it in a secure and uh responsible way um in the meantime people I think got like fed up and started deploying things that we all know today as rollups right and once ethereum uh realized what's happening they decided that sharding is not good uh rups is the future so they announced uh rup Centric road map and essentially they told everybody hey look at these guys who are deploying uh rollups uh they are doing the right thing you know and we think that that is the scaling so we're not going to do Shing and execution Shing anymore we're going to do just da um scaling right and in the meantime uh we're going to upgrade to proof of uh stake and we're going to work on making the da lay ethereum highly scalable um so we've started tracking rollups um and at the time we had like a dozen maybe all big projects very sophisticated and and suddenly um a new player entered the scene called Celestia and they told everybody hey you know what you don't have to be so like enshrined to ethereum you can do whatever you want with your rollups and by the way you're Sovereign um and we're going to build an infrastructure that will allow you to actually build rollups in a modular way super simple and if you're now building like smart contracts in the future you will be like building your own rollups right as easily as you're building smart contracts and few companies actually which we call them rollups as a service appeared and they allow anyone to launch their own rollup very cheaply and as a result on L2 be we've got today like 100 rollups maybe uh another 100 is upcoming you know we've been warned then in two years we've got we're going to have thousands of rollups and this is more or less where we are today right so so the rollups are blossoming uh people are launching them uh left and right and I think the community has divided themselves into three maybe or more camps and you know my first question uh to to the panelists is like where you sit on this divide so the camp number one uh would be like the modular maximalist right like people saying hey modul is the king build whatever everybody should have their own rollup right everybody all of you you know should have their own rollup the camp number two is like rational people saying um well RS are good uh but I think we need like maybe 10 of them at the most right and it's a like a I don't know fight of survival so maybe few of them will survive all the others going to fade um and it's going to be fun to watch you know like like get the popcorn ready right um and then the third Camp is saying that well I mean look what you've done now we've got thousands of rollups it's all been mistake you know rollups are parasitic to ethereum you know it's never going to work like look at salana look at Nia you know these guys are doing the right thing you know just reflect so um so maybe I'll start with Daman uh yeah cool so I think I'm somewhere in between two and three so uh first of all I am a person who believes in charting that this is the end game but also I think that actually changing the road map and going for rollup centring for a rollup Centric path was actually a good decision and actually we we want rollups now we uh we I think the rollups are giving us a lot of value and I will actually talk about this a little bit later uh later so why do I believe in charting so I mean there is a certain um a certain level to which you can scale a chain by itself like a solo chain like a monolithic chain like salana so there are certain like physical limits where you can get at some point I mean no matter what we do we will hit these limits so I think Shing is inevitable uh at some point we will need it no matter how how much I don't know how much course do we get on a uh on a machine how much disk space do we have we need to chop this uh uh yeah we need to chop execution we need to chop the state uh this is something that we have to do however I wanted to emphasize that Charing is actually hard so people who are saying uh Why didn't we actually go with this sharding uh idea um so there is one important technical Insight here so uh if you go from non-shed ethereum to shed ethereum there is actually a large price that you pay because you cannot just uh say that we will just uh migrate all the contracts and everything will work as before developers will not need to care about Charing because this is not true once you Shard the state once you Shard execution you get this asynchronicity you need to send uh cross Shard messages and cross Shard messages are not Atomic so it's essentially it's not the case that the developers can just forget about uh sharding they need to be Shard shingware and you can see in particular in in the new ecosystem that writing contracts uh in this asynchronous um model is actually quite hard and uh yeah on near essentially every account every contract is its own shart so every cross contract hold is asynchronous and this is really making it difficult to write contracts because now if you are making a cross contract call then whatever state changes have you committed before this call will not be reverted if the call fails you cannot do that so this is a source of lots of complexity I think this was the main reason why we uh why we see rollups because this was just easier to build right people want I mean the developers want uh synchronous execution they want atomicity this is what makes composability easy this this is what makes composability possible right um and this is what was uh kind of kind of convenient uh but I think I mean inevitably we'll we'll need to kind of solve this problem we cannot uh scale indefinitely okay so uh we're going to come back you know let's talk you know some thoughts here because you're Rising a lot of topics but uh let's just hear from mik I mean are you happy that you know you will compete now with hundreds of different rollups or or or you just don't care because they are all most of them are going to die in few years well I think we're competing with them regardless right there's still chains at the end of the day and I don't think whether you're an L1 or L2 chain changes um whether like who you're competing against I would say I'm somewhere between 1 and two um uh I'm going to say that because you said that number two is the only rational choice so I have to include two cannot be irrational on stage here um and the reason I say that is the only reason I'm saying that is that you know it's a pain for us to follow thousands of robs on L2 beats you know I just try to stop people doing this like save us whether it's rational or not for people to launch their own rollups um we're seeing that there seems to be a lot of demand for people to want to launch their own road maps uh their own rollups uh n l2s um and um whether or not the market will sustain that I think you know it's a really hard question to answer um but I do think um just on the topic of um you know sharding versus rollup Centric uh future I do think that I agree I I would say there's two problems with um the the sharded approach right number one absolutely uh programming with asynchronous uh composability is extremely difficult um and you know we're seeing you know how hard it you know is in polka dot and and even near and and that's definitely slowing them down um but number two there's also security implications right like I think rollup Centric approach has much better security uh properties than uh than these Shing um approaches right now and I do think that both of these problems will change uh with full um synchronous composability and that can come to ethereum with the current um uh rollup based approach once we have either base sequencing or some sort of shared sequencing and realtime proofs of transactions when you can combine both of these things suddenly you'll be able to actually scale with um uh and do synchronous or not asynchronous composability of across shards in or across l2s in ethereum and I think once that happens ethereum is going to be golden it's going to take a long time to get there um but it's feasible with the current technology and you know you talked to Justin Drake and Folks at espresso and they're all really excited about this future and I think what's exciting is that ethereum can scale today without waiting for that future whereas everybody else going after the sharding road map today they're not able ble to scale the way that ethereum can scale and so yes we're sacrificing um um ux for users users have to deal with moving assets back and forth between chains uh yes we're making things a little bit difficult uh but we're not sacrificing security uh and um we're going to improve the ux over time and in the meantime the whole ecosystem can blossom there can be lots of competition there can be lots of nice Innovation I think ultimately that is why I'm very excited about ethereum okay I'll pass maybe to gregar first if I may um because I'm kind of like Curious how how is it to be in in one of the ecosystems that used to be one of the very few and now it may be one of the you know hundreds right is it good or is it bad or or do you think that you know what do you see the the future you know only the the the biggest ones are going to survive or or we indeed are going to see you know thousands of competing ecosystems so I mean my answer is not going to be an engineering answer I'm someone who works around commercial entities and ecosystems maybe it's not an engineering problem you know no it clearly is not it's it's always a coordination problem today we've got a lot of rollups that appear because a lot of people want to invest in them because it's a good trade actually in the end state I'm pretty sure that most of them will die like most startup die now the reality is that what matters fundamentally is developer experience and user experience today when you look at the question that you asked I think that actually some rollups can can give like extremely good user experience and like Shing for example on near led to good user experience as well I I assume you remember probably sweatcoin sweatco like the company who ended up creating like that product was a simple company on which you would walk earn some points and then you could like acquire some like items through marketing Partnerships they end up creating an app on which you have a wallet the entire blockchain is abstracted it works people are happy with it I'm not sure it's a sustainable business model I kind of don't care about that but and users were happy about it so at the end of the day that's what really matters to me I think that we're seeing a lot of competition which is good for Innovation at the end of the day and that's what truly matters uh so stock where specifically were a first mover and how they did things and I do believe that like they they P had some like amazing Technologies now what really matters is what people do with these Technologies because that's what we care about you know at the end of the day everything is open source so if someone creates something extremely brilliant but nobody use it at some point someone else is going to take advantage of that and a very good example would be how polka do p substrates and how substrates is basically like applied to the star star natica system and it's basically is going to be like one of the key technologies that you use to deploy app chains so I mean we're all benefiting from it so there's no really bad situation out of that know growth I would say Okay so let's finish this round with Kuba my question specifically to you is that uh you guys kind of similarly to L2 beads you know you had to worry about maybe a dozen of different vaults for def users on dozens of rollups now that you've got thousands of rollups you're going to be managing thousands of different deployments potentially right I mean do users actually care I mean do you see uh that you know this is indeed you know something that's uh important uh and sustainable in the future or from the point of view of like a typical def user that is trying to to find you know where is the best yield opportunity or whatever you know at the end of the day they will end up on I don't know one of the five chains yes so I'm going to start with your initial question which will lead us to your current question which is I'm in a forth camp like as a user the fourth Camp is I'm happy there's this there was this movie it's called Uh Boondock Saints fenes Bano fenes Bano bundok Saints others couple so there were like a there was a super super inappropriate joke in this movie that unfortunately I cannot tell because it was like about racial communities or whatever but I'm going to paraphrase and it goes like this so you're telling me that all the NFD craze is going to Zora and the mcoins are going to Bas and uh some crazy token lunches are going to layer twos and blasts of the world and whatever then I'll have a Coca-Cola it just it's amazing experience to be able to interact with main net without congestion and with cheap fees like so for me like we're already so no more crypto Kitty problem I mean we're already in an amazing place like I'm like as a defi user I'm happy I can interact and like I'm also in a camp uh you know ethereum use case is finance so if ethereum use case is finance that is actually a good outcome for now now we can have a later conversation what can we improve on a on a layer one and whatever but coming back to your like second question uh defi is like 90% mainnet right now and probably like 9% arbitro and then it's the rest of it so this is the status for now and and it is an okay experience and like we're going to manage because we don't need to support thousand rollups right now because the tvl D tvl there is like minus school okay that's interesting so I I do Wonder then you know like unless you already have a user base then you may actually find it hard right to to attract new users for your new rollup if you just say hey we're space number you know 45 for defi right you know you have to do better anyway uh I mean one thing that you've mentioned uh and I think that everybody of you have uh noticed is that suddenly now it's uh if you're using al2s obviously it's like super cheap to use them right uh which is good you know which is the experience that we always wanted and suddenly uh surprisingly or not you know people started like they used to complain about high gas fees on ethereum and saying that ethereum was unusable and crap now they saying that you know ethereum suddenly became cheap right the gas prices are low so so probably if suddenly is not deflationary anymore and now again you know that seems like like another topic to complain so so so you can't make everybody happy right actually you know there's always be people complaining however you know the more serious question is are we going into the right direction in terms of like economics right and we're going to go back to to technology again but but I think you know the different kind of like angles you know we can look at the scaling road map uh and uh the economy of Eve and rollups paying or not paying the rent and what not like what the heck is going on here right I mean clearly there's a lot of people saying that maybe rollups are extracting value from E and they don't pay enough for da and for the settlement and this is not good this is not sustainable right you know at the end of the day you know that's going to like eventually make ethereum broke and and then maybe I don't know the biggest rabs will just say okay now I'm like have a big enough user space that I don't need to settle anymore and who knows maybe they will do the opposite from being L2 they will become L1 I don't know what do you guys think about it maybe I'll start with Marik this time yeah I think haters are always going to hate so um yeah I think no matter what you do there's going to be always complaining but um no my take is um I don't think l2s are extracting value right now I think um the value that ethereum gets by having a thousand very used rollups uh settling on ethereum is going to be extremely um powerful for ethereum um and I think ultimately in a world where you do have scalability you have no choice but to charge very little for transactions and so that means that the only way that you can make money is if you are settling lots and lots and lots of transactions and so the current ethereum scaling road map is clearly a really good way of uh of getting there and then longer term you know there's many ways that ethereum can make additional revenue from all of these rollups right so data availability is certainly one thing um but um you know we talked about B Bas sequencing uh before here and then also uh in a talk earlier today um you know base sequencing is is another really great way that ethereum can can um in the future potentially uh make additional Revenue uh Justin Drake talks about also having um uh a specific validation um op code as well like a specific op code that can verify uh like a canonical ZK snark based proof that proves uh that a particular set of State transitions in a L2 were correct basically think of this as um creating a standard way of verifying ZK EVMS that would be yet another way that ethereum can make revenue and so um you know sequencing data availability validation these are all these important building blocks to um operating and running an an L2 or a rollup and ethereum can easily um make a lot of Revenue that way so I'm not too worried um I think what's more important right now is to grow and to capture all of those actions are you worried Damian or you don't care that much because at the end of the day you know uh sharding is what is needed yeah and by the way you know I just wanted to sort of maybe uh take this opportunity and let you explain why I'm I'm kind of assuming that you don't really consider rollups to be shards even though each roll up at the end of the day they have their own storage right so some people argue that it is a way of sharding the state because ethereum doesn't really know much about the specific state of the rollup right it only knows about the state commitment um so so it is already sharded with thousands of rollups like what's wrong with that yeah yeah so I think that's a good point and actually I think it is short that indeed rollups are shorts but it's a little bit funny because for padot or let's say near this is what they are building they are building sharded chains and they have this particular uh spec that they are uh implementing and they are shs there on ethereal it kind of happens spontaneously right it is actually funny and I like that and I would like to make this point how are rollups actually contributing and bringing value to ethereum my opinion is that all this technological innovation that they're bringing the competition between all these rollups is bringing a lot of value because assume we wanted to build Charing on ethereum would it be easy to do it from scratch uh no and all these rollups are building this technology they are competing they are building different uh implementations and all of them all of that teaches us like which which thing is the best which version is the one that we should put in a maybe future ethereum specification right uh so this is one point and the second point I would like to make is um is about um essentially how the rollups should pay or yeah bring monetary value to ethereum so yeah I don't want to open the Pandora box here about you know secured by ethereum uh so this is some kind of a meme currently and L2 canly discuss that yeah l2b is doing great job to show you uh how this security level actually is but there is like clearly a trade-off the more you uh post to ethereum the more you actually use ethereum the more fees you pay to ethereums the more secure you are I mean that's the current state and there is no doubt about it so obviously the rollups that don't pay lot they have certainly a lower uh security level and maybe just maybe we will see some hacks we will see uh some examples where this becomes important right and maybe then uh the how people view this will change um I think eventually yeah if we consider ethereum as the place the safe haven where we have the highest level of security then eventually rollups will uh bring monetary value to ethereum because they have to right so uh um but let's uh focus on fees and let explore a little bit more I mean there are a few other interesting aspects there I think uh so going to uh to you uh greguar uh Stark net interestingly enough for those that don't know they seem to be paying uh quite a high fees for the what we call the settlement essentially which is posting you know State and proving that state to ethereum it's a ZK rollup but uh they don't take advantage of the existing pre compiles you know they don't do what we like in our jargon call the final uh snark wrap uh of the proof which everybody else is doing but they stick to Starks right they stick to the protocol called fry this is quite complicated protocol uh it just burns a lot of gas you know when you actually execute it on chain and they've been doing this you know since like day one uh meaning I don't know four years now I mean quite a lot I think uh and they continue to pay a lot of uh money right for the settlement uh which I would imagine may impact you know the the the price of uh doing transactions on on stocket one way or the other so I'm kind of like interested in your take uh I mean I know my answer but you know but I'm curious uh whether that like from your point of view you know this is something that you know should be encouraged or this is a legacy or like what's going on there like from your point of you I mean in their case when you look at Eli's work on stock specifically they believe it's a better technology to put it simply at the moment there's around 400 CPS uh like transaction costs are extremely low there's not that many transactions though let's be honest about that um so I think it's just taking a different approach if everybody is working on snars and they're working on stars and at the end of the day stars are right they can still move towards that but working on stars stars can give them a pretty big Edge in the long run if they're right so it's it is a human decision and I do think that so far like the technological like solutions that they found are pretty impressive I would have to say uh it is a key differentiator and it's it's actually what matters at the end of the day it's like when you look at starware I think that whether you care not about attraction everybody respects them on the R&D game and and it's just impressive what they manage to try to do and at the moment for example having the capacity to work with Bitcoin core developers to potentially settle there and like opat is it's very interesting directions that they are taking now it takes time and fundamentally we'll see whether or not it works in terms of commercial viability in terms of ecosystem because that's what matters at the end of the day so it's a different route that they decided to take it's a subjective decision like that's fundamentally what it is now when it comes to previous questions you asked I think you know as there's a first thing I want to say is like we're talking about peanuts today like we're not moving that much data we're not moving that much money but there's actually one question I would have for you m because cell moved from L1 to L2 and you guys had actually quite a lot of like traction I don't remember the exact number on the L1 so I'm actually very intrigued about it's big right yeah yeah we're processing over a million transactions a day um and um there's about us was checking today 650,000 daily active users and in your case why did you decided to go from the L1 to the L2 specifically I think it's a philosophical maybe ideological uh reason right as I mentioned before um ethereum now has a scaling road map and if you are an evm compatible chain it just feels odd to not be part of that scaling road map when we started there was you know they were still thinking about sharding um you know ethereum 2.0 back then um and there was no way for us to plug into that road map and focus on our mission uh around Financial inclusion and making you know mobile payments mobile defi more accessible to everyone in the world there was no way to do that cheaply as part of the ethereum road map so we we launched our own L1 we created our own proof of stake consensus protocol I think we were the first evm compatible proof of stake Network out there uh we removed all of the uh proof of work related stuff from the headers uh which then bit us uh because developers were complaining uh so we had to read add them um but ultimately it just made sense at the time to launch as a standalone um L1 but now it just doesn't make sense um and you know our Builders are building um for all of ethereum um and uh we're also um we also started in ethereum the reason we launched this L1 to begin with is because we tried to build a really easy to ous Mobile Wallet on ethereum and then crypto kitties um came and uh we're like oh okay this isn't going to work we're going to need to launch our own L1 and so fundamentally we're just so aligned with the ethos of ethereum it just didn't make sense for us to not be part of the current road map when we could fit in so nicely that's a so you guys see that you know there are chains that are not afraid to pay uh significantly uh more for the settlement because of certain conviction be it you know the superiority of the technology or the lack of certain trust assumptions that you would have with uh other Technologies and whatnot right and uh from what I'm hearing it's like not entirely clear at all what will be in the future the real cost of settlement because the the whole thing is changing right uh and my question to Kuba is like do users actually care or or this is something that you know it's a very important discussion but you know at the level of developers and infrastructure Builders and whatnot but at the end of the US day what do users care about I mean clearly low fees are important right uh but the other one that you know I hope that you know we're going to move uh the discussion towards to is this you know like um I don't know Holy Grail of interoperability which some people say it has to be synchronous it just has to right you know anything else uh just won't work but at the same time I feel like the trfi is asynchronous you know we manage to work around it by having a superb user interface you know when you do the bank transes you don't know that everything below is asynchronous at the point of the settlement happens 3 days after which is like hugely asynchronous right um and um using using FTP of files around yes um some systems from the 70s I guess um and and yeah I mean like what is your perspective here yeah so users obviously don't care what exact mechanism is there uh now there's another group of people just want yield right it's if holders and now we're talking and I I guess like we're getting this discussion is getting more intense right now because you know price is falling and a lot of people were expecting it's going up so it's kind of the dip yeah it's it's it's getting like intense right now and we're talking about this but we're not the only ones that's having this discussion and I don't think it's super relevant like what exact parameters are set in this mechanisms it's like 10 years from now what's going to matter is which one of these coins is like a sustainable store of value and I guess ethereum is positioned like very very well compared to some other chains out there regardless of like what exact blob price we choose today or not to choose today so yeah that that's basically my point okay so can we like explore a little bit you know this interoperability issue I I think uh or maybe before we go that you know just one more question uh about prices because like settlement fees da fees you know there's just one component right but you know this whole thing of uh uh being parasitic uh also touches on a point like [Music] uh um what is the role of sequences uh you know running those l2s the do they actually extract all the fees uh are the fees related to me or to change congestion or to the settlement cost uh or again you know this is like very fluid and that's going to change in the future like what's going on here because like literally every single rollup right now is using centralized sequencer right so normally you would think the central sequences should extract meev turns out that this is not really the case uh at least I'm not aware of anyone like openly extracted an m so maybe this is a good thing to have a centralized sequencer but on the other hand you know everybody wants to decentralize sequences uh which will in my opinion increase settlement cost but maybe open up you know like I don't know like another can of worms um also related to fees so uh so how do you guys see that problem uh especially from the point of view like Salo for example that's moving from a decentralized infrastructure to what I believe will be fairly centralized in the short term at least yes so certainly our plan is to have a decentralized sequencer and and our um what we're working through right now is is how to do that in a way that's compatible with the super chain uh and something that we can do in in in the near term and also I guess compatible with what the broader ethereum ecosystem is doing um there is base sequencing there's also espresso uh there's a lot of different competing um uh offerings on this front and and we're eagerly waiting to see what is the shelling Point going to align around because I think we want to be as compatible as ethereum aligned as possible um but in terms of me um I do think that you know certainly I'm seeing um a lot of L2 Stacks moving towards um um being able to auction out the right to build uh these blocks um for the sequencer to then uh put their stamp approval on um so I think even with centralized sequencers uh we're seeing um a direction that will lead to more me um and then I'm also seeing decentralized sequencers um getting pushed back from these Stacks saying hey we don't want to just give up our me to you so now these decentralized Protocols are also coming up with ways to separate uh block building from um effective um putting their stamp uh on a particular block uh and saying that this block is final it can't be rolled back um and so there I I'm seeing actually also um a big push towards again letting block Builders build these blocks and ultimately actually this is important because this is ultimately what's going to allow um full composability or even in the short term just Atomic inclusion of transactions across chains because if you want to have uh sorry I should say Atomic execution if you want to have Atomic inclusion a shared sequencer is enough to accomplish that you can just include two transactions no problem but if you want to guarantee that both of these um execute um a typical shared sequencer will not give that to you but if you suddenly give a block Builder uh the ability to create blocks where they guarantee that both of these transactions will execute then then now we're talking and we can actually do atomic inclusion uh execution and that's going to be really powerful for not full composability but for enabling some level of interrupt that will hopefully be useful um to make um various chain abstraction Primitives that will make lives easier for end users so yeah so I'm seeing a lot of work happening in that direction how much me extraction will happen ultimately I don't know I know Justin Drake um has this argument that MV over time has been going down so maybe in the end it won't matter but um I think that's yet to be seen but it's something interesting to to see like a good analysis of the actual traffic on these l2s because I'm hearing arguments that um because there's no chance to have an offchain auctions you know all the auctions moved onchain and the majority of the traffic is actually Bots you know and seches trying to to kind of like hit you know the the proper OB opportunities especially this is cheap to do right you know the the cheaper the fees the more the the cheaper is to spam the network with whatever activity right 100% yeah I I think you're definitely seeing a lot of tipping happening um on to these sequencers in order to try to win Arbitrage opportunities do things that would traditionally end up going to block Builders but now we're just going to sequencers so what's uh how how's this discussion looks like you know in like darket camp where uh I know that you know you guys have big plans for decentralization you've been talking about that for for for E uh but also having a unique proof system you know might actually give you a certain Edge uh in this respect right and I've seen some proposals ZK threats and whatnot you know some some interesting ideas that being kind of sovereign uh allows you to experiment right uh around these ideas so so how do you you know do do you like see these discussions uh um what does it look like you know from where you said so I mean from my perspective first on the topic of decentralization and stock net you see that they're doing quite a lot of efforts with the Snips and they encourage the community to give them basically a lot of feedback and they take these into account and well to be like is quite active actually in these discussions and I do believe it's the best way to build to make sure that the developer Community is happy about what you do and that everybody's aligned in the direction that you you're taking on the specific topic of M at the moment you don't see you don't see anything on snet let's be very honest I think like when you think about me you need to think about Arbitrage specifically talking like when you look at when you want to compare me on on ethereum or Solen for example you would have to realize that M on solena is harder fundamentally than than ethereum because it's just a more competitive environment things are cheaper blocks are like just happen like faster so in an environment that is more competitive you extract less fees so at the end of the day like we can consider that maybe they disappear uh but for stockness perspective on my end I don't really have like a strong like perspective on what's going to happen to be honest uh Dam you uh seem to have a very strong opinions and interoperability which I'm not really sure I can agree with but you know like tell us why why do you think that Atomic uh is important and you know whether you do shards or rollups or whatever you have to overcome you know this problem because otherwise I don't know I mean otherwise we're all going to end up using Solana whatever all right so um I have to say that as a user whether things are asynchronous whether we have app chains whether we have one big L1 I don't really care I just want to use one wallet I want to interact with web3 easily so this is this is the goal of what we are what we want to uh ship to the user but as a developer who needs to write contracts who needs to develop the apps well that's a different story so developing an evm contract and deploying on an evm chain um well it's it's simple uh currently it's like we have a lots of lots of tooling we have uh now developers who can do that uh who teach other developers so the e system is blooming so this is great and I mean we already know how to write synchronous contracts but well once we have this kind of um challenges coming from asynchronous calls between apps between rollups between whatever we call them shards things change I mean things change a lot because the developers will make mistakes they will will not um consider all the options of what can happen if you have three cross contract calls you have like a billion of options of which call can fail and then whether you handle all the failures correctly it is just lots of complexity um and honestly I'm kind of torn between sharding which kind of forces you to have to like for to to solve this problem and and not Shing which well is then forly synchronous um so I just hope that we develop this good interoperability solutions that kind of make it easy for developers to you know uh kind of deal with the asynchronicity in the in the execution environment and maybe just to challenge a little bit I'm um I I guess bark maybe this was also a challenge to your statement that if we need synchronicity we have to go to salana I fundamentally disagree ultimately there is no reason why with snarks realtime proving and either based or shared sequencing we can't actually get synchronous full composability across different rollups um with kind of without having to go to the monolithic L1 model and when do you think we're going to have a real time proving just a rough estimate I mean sure it might take 3 years but it'll happen yeah I mean that's the estimate that I've also heard like 3 to 5 years so that's the only concern right you know do we have that much time I don't know uh guys uh we're slowly uh um at the top of the hour so maybe we have time for one more like last hot take or maybe some you know closing statement that you know you'd like the audience to to ponder yes so aren we solving for some hypothetical future with the interoperability like if we would have like a full room to today of poly Market users and we would ask them do you have a problem with interoperability they would say no they don't they just go on poly market and just use poly market and I agree like for many many applications in the future this is a real valid problem but I guess that is sort of overblown because we are a developer we're technical is there a reason poly Market needs to live on chain and be atomically composable with whatever or maybe this is a great example of you know of an app that would benefit from being on its own rollup having it own mle and whatnot right there's a big reason for poly Market to be on chain and to be you know censorship proof and like there's there's a lot of reasons for poly Market to be on chain does it have to interoperate with other stuff maybe maybe you want to have like some special perss on the you know BS shares whatever like there are possibly DJ use cases right right there that interoperability might unlock but do we need it now today I don't know I think we still need to find our use cases and our initial traction like some of the applications are already finding meme coins don't need interoperability so and that seems to be what gets everyone excited these days so I don't know I think we probably have three years to find those use cases that really need all that composability I think defi is really one space where interop interoperability matters a lot I mean all these apps Taxas uh Landing protocols uh yeah they kind of work together very nicely but if you have one chain there's lending protocol another chain where there is some something that the landing protocol wants to talk with currently it's not possible also the problem I mean we are talking is that true I mean there are instances of a that allow you to use bridged assets in those in es uh yeah correct but this is all because AA has worked a lot to make this possible and this is really a customized solution right this is not a solution that is uh available to everyone to to up Builders and yeah this is what makes it hard to build cross chain apps def it depends on the use case to be honest but I tend to agree liquidity fragmentation is a pain for everyone and it tends to make no sense I mean the only people really profiting out of the current situation at the moment are arbitragers and Tra Traders specifically because there's just more and more inefficiencies but I mean that's how the world works we extract value out of inefficiencies and we often create inefficiencies just for the sake of capitalism so all right guys our time is up you know thank you guys so much you know it's been a real pleasure I hope you guys uh you know enjoyed the conversation and uh um I hope that the future is bright you know even though we have to still overcome you know some hurdles on the way thank you thank you thank you thanks a lot