# Privacy: Past, Present and the Post Quantum World - Dr. David Chaum | ETHDam 2024

- Channel: [CryptoCanal](https://streameth.org/cryptocanal)
- Date: 2024-10-07
- Duration: 40:21
- Watch: https://streameth.org/watch/yt-EVWCYvKeH14
- YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVWCYvKeH14

## Description

Godfather of crypto, father of online anonymity & the founder of xx network - Dr. David Chaum
https://twitter.com/chaumdotcom https://xx.network/ https://twitter.com/xx_network

ETHDam - a conference and hackathon held in the heart of Amsterdam, Netherlands from April 12th to 14th, 2024, celebrated its second edition, gathering more than 600 participants. 

In the dynamic space of ETHDam, privacy and security took center stage, featuring groundbreaking discussions on hacks, recovery, and the revolutionary work of figures like Pertsev. Privacy is dead in crypto, people that know, know. People who don’t know, should know. 

ETHDam is powered by CryptoCanal, an education and events platform growing in Amsterdam, spreading its roots to Rotterdam and Zürich.
Jonathan Knegtel - MC of ETHDam, data aficionado and your favourite wooden bowtie. 

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0:00 - Introduction 
0:18 - David's Background and Achievements
0:43 - The Origin of eCash
1:00 - David's Influence in Cryptocurrency
1:31 - History and Future of Cryptocurrency
1:53 - Digital World in the 1970s
2:22 -  Cryptography in the Informational World
2:49 - David's Career Journey Towards Web3 Direction
3:21 - Phase Change in Financial Services
4:05 - Historical Background of Cryptocurrency
4:24 - The Journey to Amsterdam and the Creation of DigiCash Company
5:03 - Achievements and Recognition in Theoretical Computer Science
5:36 - The Funding and Progress of Privacy Technology
6:16 - eCash
6:59 - Central Bankers
8:05 - The First International E-cash Payment
9:12 -  Privacy Protection in E-cash
10:03 - Social Cohesion and Digital Privacy
10:57 - Rapid Changes in AI Technology
11:29 - Lack of Digital Privacy
13:55 - Growing Up and Paying Bills
15:20 - Reflections on Idealism and Economic Welfare
16:40 - Overview of David's Career 
17:11 - Cryptography to Protect Privacy
18:56 - International Association for Cryptography Research
20:43 - Discussing the Concept of Linked Databases and Identity
21:14 - Pseudonyms in Protecting Identity
22:33 - The Challenges of User Experience in Implementing Privacy Measures
23:06 - Introducing the Concept of Personal AI for Privacy
23:55 - The Potential of AI in Enhancing Web 2.0 User Experience
24:38 - Development of Blind Signatures
25:46 - The Role of Cryptography in Ensuring Privacy
26:58 - The Story Behind the Development of E-Cash Payment System
28:00 - Addressing the Issue of Infrastructure Security and Privacy
29:06 - Discussing the Three Major Areas of Information Infrastructure
31:00 - The Currency Wars: A Discussion on Cryptocurrencies and National Currencies
32:00 - The Importance of Identity in Ensuring Privacy and Security
33:14 - Secure Identity Verification
34:02 - Inalienable Identity for Secure Voting Systems
35:00 - Identity in Real Democracy Implementation
36:04 - Secure Voting Systems
37:00 - Sample Voting 
38:15 - The Role of AI

## Transcript

[Music] so it is with great pleasure and excitement that we get to have David Sharm here today who has flown all the way from La that's around 4,000 kmers just to be here to hopefully inspire you tell some stories and also give some announcements he's really an OG in the space where he's actually a previous generation to pretty much everyone else in that room and that's not meant to be an insult that's meant to be a salute thank you for all of your service um and ultimately he's the founder of ecash which was created by digicash in Amsterdam actually which was a fun fact that I didn't know um which was one of the first iterations of crypto as as we know it and so obviously as we see of the forks of the forks of the forks of the forks if you follow that tree all the way down quite early on you'll come down to ecash and Digi um and he's been referred to the father of online enmity and the Godfather of cryptocurrency so with a round of applause please can we introduce David to the stage oh wow you canr oh you already mik this is so uh so awesome to see all of you here and to be here with all of you um uh I was asked to share a little bit about the history and then some about the present and um future I've got stuff to say about each I could talk all day about each one but I want to just start simply with this that like in the late 1970s I had this idea come to me that there were really only two ways the world could go because it was going to go all digital now that wasn't obvious many people in those days but either it would be a kind of web 2 nightmare or cryptography which is the only real substantive way to wield power in the informational world would be partly controlled by people and you'd get a kind of own your own Keys web 3 reality and that could lead to the preservation of democracy and the kinds of liberal values that I uh hold dear so I decided that I should spend the rest of my professional career trying to gently push things in that direction the web three Direction and so I've spent kind of like the last 40 years doing that and a a lot of it was here in in Amsterdam [Music] and just a couple weeks ago I had a second Epiphany that um and the other one I wanted to mention and that's uh uh phase change I think is is occurring that will completely uh alter the way people who care about these issues should most responsibly act and it will allow us to uh also uh benefit dramatically so it should be a blast um you know so okay let me let me let me just kind of try to share real quick some of the historical stuff because I'm really surprised not many PE no one I've even met here today knows any any of this stuff um so back uh in the in the uh I came to Amsterdam Dam because I met the head of the CWI this you know what that is how many people know CWI yeah a few people that's the center for math and computer science in uh in the vmir uh and um like suburb of Amsterdam and it's a nationally funded Research Institute and I built up a cryptography group there that became the leading group in the world and we did a lot of uh uh of research and made some very fundamental breakthroughs and for one of which I was awarded the best theoretical computer science paper in the last 30 years award and that's the first time they gave the award I don't think know they've given it again and uh this is by all the you know editors of the theoretical computer science conferences and it's whole big deal so uh that was work we did uh in my group and my group included undergraduates all the way to visiting professors you know were on their sabatical we put them in like house boats on the H and you know and it was a whole whole ongoing thing and we got a lot of EU funding and uh put together a lot of EU projects try to push this privacy technology uh forward and part of that we spun off I spun off the ecash the digicash company to build ecash and uh initially we were housed in a in a you know linear accelerator building just on our campus there and then they built decided to build a science Park which is very early days for that kind of thing and so we got like the whole top floor the beautiful we can see the you know look out at the eye basically at sea level and it was uh really nice and uh that's where we created the you know the digicash company and launched ecash and ecash was electronic money we had our own cyber Buck Right which was uh I just said there's only going to be a million of these and we if if you put up a shop online and accept it as payment we'll give you a 100 cyber bucks and there's a whole bunch of shops up there you can see the ecash museum I mean uh it's a long story uh Deutsche Bank issued ecash in Deutch marks and which was the largest bank in Europe and then bunch of other banks around the world so it was in available in a lot of major currencies and you know I mean I was the F only speaker the first speaker at the central Bankers Secret annual meeting which only became public a few months ago uh who wasn't a central Banker it was in Rome and they ushered us across several major Avenues into the Vatican Museum and the Vatican I was sing in the 16 Chapel with only two other people and they were Central Bankers okay so I was in the you know I was in the main legal conference room at City Bank and at Visa international and you know and so on NE go they wanted to B you know we they gave us offices at credit Swiss one of the major Investment Bank in uh you know now defun guess but in uh in well things change but you know they had really nice offices uh uh and everything and on and on and on okay um so so it was a big deal there was the the worldwide web conference in gen in in CERN in Geneva the first one there were two Keynotes Tim burners Lee and and me mine was first and I used it to make an e-cash payment to Amsterdam which is the first International e-cash payment and you know was a big deal in those days we we had an actual live video projector [Music] and so I could you know share my screen with the audience and they could see me make this payment and then I wrote a like three paragraph press release and like in the next 48 hours it was in the New York Times The Wall Street Journal you know the mon etc etc etc and so like you know I trying to take an elevator somewhere and you know people would accost me it's like you know so I was like all on news and everything was a big deal because I proposed the idea that a number could be worth money that was was to me that the you know essence of of ecash but don't forget ecash protects protect privacy I don't want to get involved in the currency Wars and I'll come to that in a minute but you know better than anything I think it's out there today because it had unconditional protection of your money numbers that you chose at random uh so no one could stop you from having your money and no one could see where you spent it and that was that and and you know did the government try to stop me from having privacy and money no there was a the financial crimes enforcement Network did exist in Washington DC and the head of it came to visit me and was he was like a fan and and there were guys you know I I hosted the head of VC International uh at my office you know and I take him out to dinner my favorite restaurant in Amsterdam uh the um uh you know uh the powers that be even the National Security Agency you know they don't say much right but the like guy named Brian snow I guess is public he's was head of our division research you know and he said you know he they he said oh my guys really love what you're doing you know but of course we don't it doesn't affect us because we're involved in this other thing and so don't worry so that's the way it was I mean the letters kyc I don't know maybe it sounded like fried chicken or something we didn't we did not hear that in those days I don't know what you know all this the world was very different everyone thought they were going to be relatively well better off than their folks and they would get buy a house and you know you could take a gas station public in those days that's when I was growing up you know this was the 19 don't look at I grew up in the N late 1960s and early 70s you know people young people I meet today think that they are really getting away with a lot of stuff well you have no idea so uh you know it's um so it was very different then and but there was a sense of of social cohesion and that has been destroyed by a lack of digital privacy as many people are now aware and that's probably dooming civilization because it's created a kind of acrimony and we're not able to really you know move move forward effectively in this very promising but you know also potentially very dangerous time because so much stuff is in play right now with I mean how many people have been shocked by how fast AI is just sort of gone from zero to whatever 5,000 miles an hour you know incredible I mean you know so uh things are changing very rapidly and so um I I also do though want to give a shout out the you know there's the so there's the Privacy you know I and I inspired the cipher punks okay they always wanted me to be in it I wasn't really a subscriber to their method you know uh of of sort of you know countercultural resistance we're going to do it and you can't stop us and and I love those people and I know them of course and they like me but you know I thought I could put on a suit which wasn't you know my favorite thing to do and go and sell this stuff and make it happen and I I I did had some success with that um so you know blowing up in the desert yeah maybe it's it's you get a lot of you know camaraderie people when they're in a in a movement they you know it's very exhilarating and they will do much more than they would normally but you know we had the digicash company here uh you know beautiful Posh office space all customade furniture wool carpeting you know big Windows looking out at the water and everything and it was a group of very very committed people we thought we saw the future and we could see how we were building it and how important what we were doing was and and it was uh you know we were um you know like like the beach boy said we were uh uh what is it keep uh keeping uh making good bread and keeping a cool head uh you know it's great to be able to do well by doing good does that make sense if if if you look at at charities and volunteer organizations and so on what you find is they're often manipulated by donors who want to move them in certain directions if you really study the UN and all their little organizations the funding they get is not unconditional look into it they every country that funds them says well we'll give you money but not for this or not but not for that or for this year but we really don't like what you're doing maybe not next year so you know all theot major thies they're all it's more a way just to get the public to pay for stuff that rich people want to do it's you know it's like aser turfing is not a new idea okay so if you really want to change the world and you have the opportunity to do it not just as a way to have fun as a young person you know uh but to actually make it happen then probably that's a way you can make money by making it happen and then you can really make it happen now that sounds evil maybe to you but it's it if you think about it everybody someday has to pay their bills and you know whatever you want to do stuff and it it it's just something it's a face it's a thing that happens to people as they grow up I'm sorry to have to say it you know everyone's just traditionally very idealistic when they're younger and they get older they have they they want to you know they got you know I'm a an example of someone who never really figured that out you know always I've just been pushing for my uh what I think thought was important not really trying to look out for my own uh economic uh welfare but um you know that that's generally not the way people are but if there if something's really going to carry the day and happen there's going to be money to be made and that you're competing against other things that are making money and so that's the way you have to do it and it's not all that bad you know if if it's pretty fun to have some dough when you're young enough to really enjoy it so look I'm not trying I'm not saying give up your values I'm saying if you see an opportunity to more effectively push your values forward and do well by it then it's irrational not to do that that's the sin because you're not doing as well something that's really going to happen has to just generate value and to propel it and um so okay so there's my sermonizing um let's see um here I have this slide showing a little bit of what I've done um you know after the four last 40 years I had the Epiphany and then I started was working on voting I'll come back to that at the end but uh okay so I I figured out at Berkeley a grad student like you know they had the Epiphany information it was going to be an informational world and how if whether privacy was protected or not was going to CH make a big difference and and then I tried to figure out how you could use cryptography to protect privacy and I came up with mixing and blind signatures know in rough outline early days and I said I can see the light at the end of the tunnel this could probably all work this is amazing this is a big deal and just at that time the National Security Agency got a new director and he like in his first week he wrote letters to you know I E and ACM and said if you even think about organizing a you know a session on a on cryptography at one of your conferences we're going to throw the book at you okay and this was reported in Science magazine by a woman named uh her name's easy to remember Gina colada okay she was a big deal science reporter in those those days I don't know what happened to her but in any event you can read about all this crap on my website but the thing is you know I said this is too important to be you know hidden uh and this cannot stand and so I did you know a a crazy thing that you know young people would do I said screw this I'm going to organize you know a a major conference on cryptography and not only that I'm going to create an international organization that's going to sponsor a series of them and you know we're going to publish a journal and I'm going to do this all secretly without using the phone and then well and then send out letters you know invite people and then I stood up there in front of you know like 80 the top you know probably 60 70% of all the people that were publicly known to be doing interested in research in P in cryptography in those days came to Santa Barbara for this for this crypto 82 and I said you know we're launching icr the International Association you're all members now because you PID your 100 bucks to come here and uh you know it's this back by the UN because it's an international scientific Association and this our president and we're going to have a conference in UD Italy in the spring and Henry here is going to be the chairman of it and like that so um it was over the you know the first row was all these people whose name badges said you know Jo smoke uh Bethesda Maryland you know Laurel Maryland but you know private person coming from Laural Maryland just you know happened to be coming here to the conference so they all turned green it was just like over you know there's no way they're going to stop it so I'm not sure what you know what they were planning but they gave up so [Music] um that's uh something I did and and uh I I um then you know took advantage of the time to work the ideas out a little further and and I was invited to uh write them up in Scientific American Magazine which was you know it comes out translated 10 languages in those days there were like 3,500 word articles you know was a pretty big deal uh and also uh cacm invited the longer version of the paper it appeared on their cover and a lot of people volunteered to translate it into a lot of languages and it was a kind of you know very well uh received I had this whole laid out way to uh uh allow people to to keep their own information private and yet protect the interests of society so instead of databases uh with that are all linked to your identity right where those companies could share information about you based on your identity only you knew the main pseudonym and you gave different pseudonyms to each of them and so they would sign things and then you could make a zero knowledge proof of about facts related to your you know call them credentials make it to the the other ones and they could all see that it was in the same uh set you know so that it can correspond to the same person and we tie that to the is a person credential it's all in the Scientific American AR you read it so like it's not a mystery how to do all this stuff that's an interesting point you know around that time there was a guy Nam Phil Zimmerman Phil Zimmerman okay yeah Phil I knew him you know quite well pgp pretty good privacy you know I call Phil one day you know quite a while ago I used run into him say if pH just tell me what's your PG you know do you use pgp he said no it's it's too hard to use I don't actually use it okay now so you what I'm trying to say with these two examples is that we did not have to build out a web2 social media we already knew how to solve all this stuff you know up one side and down the other very fully however the user experience you know the ux you may regard as a important but somewhat you know separate part of the hacking world right is the bottleneck because because had humans had to operate it and you know keeping track of all these pseudonyms and doing all this stuff you know no matter how hard you try if you really wanted to to do all the fancy stuff take control over your own informational life you'd have to keep track of who knew what and what you need to prove to so and so and therefore the the ux can't really solve that for you but okay so here's here's the punchline maybe you want to come up here and talk um so here's the punchline it is that this is this is the phase change AI can do that stuff for you your AI your pet AI your personal AI is now means that we can use all these fancy tools but not just us everybody could use them you know your your your parents could use them or whatever your you know your kid kid brother could use them it's it's e should be trivial to use and yet they get to really take advantage of all the power and and it's solve this problem you can't solve priv privacy really halfway you kind of got to you know jump in with all fours and solve it and if you really want to do it it's it's it's you know it's not trivial matter but with AI it could be fine just it'll be just as good just as easy as a web 2 version that that's a totally different world okay but it's it's a part of the different world show you in a minute what I think also makes a big difference um yeah and then I I mentioned uh already uh eash right and uh and more recently I founded um so so you see how uh blind signatures ecash is is in green but and in purple we have mixing those are the two main ingredients for all this stuff and I thought of them originally you know and okay the truth is people have come up to me and said you know David I was very disappointed when I saw your work because um you know I already thought of this a couple years ago I thought of mixing or I thought of blind signatures I mean I can tell you who those people are and what exactly they said but it wasn't they didn't really they it was part of it they only got part of part of that one part okay but it is true I mean you could say the ideas were the air you could say oh was easy for you but David in those days to figure no but I you know I had the Epiphany how of how important this stuff would be I figured out how to do it all and I put it out there in a way that no one could say it wasn't fully explained in a done deal right Scientific American and cacm and uh you know then I went and built it right here you know in Amsterdam by the way I want to shout out to it was a you know I didn't type a war a line of code this was done okay here's here's a funny little story and I'm get into the uh you know what the opportunity is right in in the future but just maybe a little more local color so well I was a professor I I was a head of I was a head of the cryptography group here at at the CWI and I got this invitation from the einhoven University you know south of the big Rivers you know where where where Phillips is uh in to uh come down and give a general purpose talk to the students you know if they have like every month one of these kind of things and uh for entertainment so I said okay sure so I went down there and I gave it and you know it's it's all fun but there's a kind of group of people that kind of you know insinuated themselves into my world that it turns out you know their their their parents were all Engineers for Phillips and Phillips had donated all this gear to this lab and it was called the Young inventors club and so these kids thought they could do anything and you know they were you know a very capable hacker group you know there was like horn hogy who was a you know Hardware you know guy very good with a soldering iron you know PCB design and you know anything to do with Hardware I have five minutes all right see I told you I get talk all day all right anyways I told them with the the the reich's Father which is the infrastructure people came to me and they said David you're the head of the group here we need you to figure out a way if people can pay for Road pricing with these transmitter things and if there's no privacy in it they're not going to use it and they'll make the government look stupid and people will stop following laws in the Netherlands and I was like oh my God that's that is serious and so that's what they they really literally said they were really worried so I said okay I'll I'll make you cash for your things and we made it so those I gave those the team from einhoven a free trip to their dream abcot they wanted to go to abcot two weeks condos take their girlfriends they could red cars go to abcot if they could make an e-cash payment in one meter of road travel at 100 kilometers an hour with a smart card chip in 10 days and that's what we had to do because the Reich father was going to give the contract to these this consulting company who you know was hopeless group but of course they were already they already had the contract to see if what we were saying was true or not so we had to prove to these guys who wanted to prove that we were we couldn't do it that it would we could do that in 10 days so this this this this team did it we we created a hacking space out of a couple houses in their living room it was a 24-hour you know with the the Cat 5 cables running every everywhere and and so okay I can shut up uh so the the second Epiphany was this phase change right where we can we can use Ai and Now privacy technology can can win in a fair fight without playing the privacy card okay and but we can do it in a way that's consistent with the ethos that I've had for the last 40 years that I'm sure I don't have to explain to you um and let me just show real quick if you'll let me uh go through these things that uh we we there's three major areas of information infrastructure that you have to address when you want to address privacy or that just exist as you know the same in the Scientific American article it's the same thing today so I could we have a way to make it so that you can pay for uh mobile phone access and uh it'll be cheaper and better in other words you pay as you go with a new kind of ecash that prevents fraud and and DDOS which the current chip cards with the uh secret key in them that's always issuing your identity SIM cards you know little evil SIM cards uh don't solve the SIM card solution not only spies on everyone even the CIA read about it's fascinating uh but it also would allow uh DD for the whole the whole telecommunication infrastructure because it's it's a very primitive system but I know the guys who developed it I any event so we can make something way better which is pays you go ecash because of a new kind of e-cash that I developed recently it's called private G and and it's not much public right now but I'm happy to talk to you about it and so because it's cheaper and and better people will want to use it so it's uh uh and in I know many people feel that payments is important and please have a look at my website chom.com can you remember that yeah chom.com okay go there then you see better the money as one of the projects and this is is the answer to tokenizing everything and uh the currency Wars you know I run into a lot of people at events like this that say well I'm a Bitcoin maximalist or I'm into this or I'm into that you know and you're you're all wrong it's this is the currency and then I go to meetings of central bankers and they say those guys are you know that's all that stuff you know never going we've you know National currencies and we got to stop them and you know these I call this the currency Wars okay and then there's the gaming people who innocently have all these different kinds of tokens they want to be able to so I created this thing called inter fungibility where you can have a portfolio of whatever assets you would like whether those are equities uh cryptocurrencies uh Fiat currencies standard Commodities and you can transfer value directly from that to someone else's portfolio no matter what they have and you don't find out what they have and you they don't find out what you have and this is a inexpensive transfer and so instead of the poor paying four to 6% to move money globally uh you can do it uh in this way so you don't have to hold cash like rich people don't want to hold cash companies don't want to hold cash right because it's inflationary they're not making any money on it they want to keep all their value invested in things that appreciate now some guys making a 100 bucks a month farming in in subsaharan Africa can also stay out of cash and get into you know Bitcoin or whatever Apple stock I wouldn't buy apple right now but whatever and uh you know and so there's three and a half billion people on the planet who have smartphones and bank accounts but they don't have consumer credit and this is something that would they would very much appreciate and we can offer that to them with the better the money system so it's really interesting and uh that's uh yeah so it's compelling to the users because they can make more money you know I don't to make how more much more compelling it could be right they can accumulate wealth instead of being poor so I think they'll want to use it um and uh all right you so this new kinds of EC and mixing involved in it and finally identity everyone realizes how fundamentally important identity is um uh oh I may have to change my identity um kicked off this stage but uh here's really interesting piece of news it's public but not how it works it's not public yet how many people heard of worldcoin how many people were pissed off when they read about worldcoin okay I was too and I you know and I read this essay by a falic you know and he said well you know this and that and it's terrible but we'll just have to you know accept it because we just don't know what to do and so I thought you know maybe this is a solution so I worked on it I found a new kind of mixing that you know solves it up one side and down and the other shoots the problem dead it's a 40-year-old open problem created by the initi the FBI you know you have scans of fingerprints or they could be irises you want to encrypt them with industrial strength cryptography initially at the instant of capture and keep them encrypted forever never be able to decrypt them and yet you want to match them against the database to see if they're already in there or not this is what the Holy Grail right this is what you like to be able to do without ever ever them ever being decrypted and uh uh I not only found a way to do that with mixing but to do it in such a way that it's controlled by a a a Byzantine consensus of a blockchain okay but the but no yeah those those things are never decrypted in fact no one has the keys to decrypt them so it's very very uh strong and what it means is that you can um you know merge these databases and so the if so if you know India the adart system they have 1.2 billion fingerprints on file if that leaks and these databases do leak thanks to you know people we all know um then uh fingerprints will be ruined forever as an identification means right but so this raises the bar if you're a company and you've got fingerprints you have a huge legal liability and if you use better than if if you use this we call zanar technology you can read about it uh you you you know you you've protected yourself from that so this is a different kind of way to make sure something happens from a commercial point of view fear is a really good motivator for for corporations fear of huge economic losses and losses in brand Equity so I one last slide you can have you can have it okay so it's extra credit but there's a a new kind of way technology that I developed which is is is called an alienable identity where you can as a person as a human you can prove that you actually as a human know the you have information that will allow you to reconstruct the private key corresponding to this public key and so that's something can never be taken away from you you see an a iable like in alienable rights you you have proven that you've committed it to memory and you really do have it so no one can ever make you forget it and that it turns out is necessary in a sense sufficient to do real democracy absent that you cannot do voting outside of a booth because of cryptocurrencies people can accept bribes and prove how they voted it's only with this inalienable identity thing that you cannot prove how you voted and by you can change it's it's been published we published these articles it's called vodex X we're building it uh published a couple articles about it it's it's it's based on this inable identity okay when you combine that with sample voting which you'll see also on chom.com what you what you get is a system where we can have a tremendous number of questions for which we have proven information about whether the public likes them or not would agree with the answers or not in other words we we can have instead of just voting for president or maybe some you know representative Humanity can vote for thousands of different things a day and it costs less and it takes less time from everyone because you only have to vote on you get to vote on two things a year and they're randomly Chosen and you're part of a random jury but no one knows who they are but it's all proven that it's exactly done correctly and the results are why is that important because it scales with the size and complexity of society today and current democracy you know barely scaled with the horse and buggy days so we got to move to this and if we use AI to help then we can deal with this complexity but we can set it up in such a way that every single decision is provably made by a majority would provably be agreeable to a majority of the humans on the planet even though it's a micro decision you know should we and that way we can use the power of AI you know it's the Machines of Loving Grace thing right it's we we can flourish with their help but they can never you know take over and but we're empowered to to to control everything by just by sample voting which is you know we we have sampling for airplanes and we use it for all kinds of Public Safety things I mean it's a known technology we just don't use it we use it in voting and so we can we can solve these problems so this is you know this is where all these privacy Technologies can take us we can make us of the AIS can't really learn too much about us because we're really fully deploying the Privacy technology with their help and then we can make sure they don't do anything we don't like thank you thank you very much David thank you sorry for went over no worries thank you very much uh David and um thanks everyone for coming to that um I I think one of the big things is David obviously has his story and part of you being here at eth is also part of your story so um now is lunchtime please go eat uh because you can't do anything if you're not fed and the next talks are going to start at 2 p.m. if any of them are interesting to you thanks a lot and see you soon SM like [Music]