# ETHWarsaw 2023: Scalability Panel - Recent progress in solving Ethereum scaling challenges

- Channel: [ETH Warsaw](https://streameth.org/eth-warsaw)
- Date: 2024-10-07
- Duration: 53:11
- Watch: https://streameth.org/watch/yt-FiqGXK01GoI
- YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FiqGXK01GoI

## Description

Recent progress in solving Ethereum scaling challenges - A Scalability Panel featuring key individuals discussing breakthroughs and ongoing efforts in scaling Ethereum. 

Follow us for more updates: https://twitter.com/ETHWarsaw

## Transcript

are okay hello hello can everyone hear me um I'm being told that there will be a graphic coming up I'm not sure what it will be about I hope it will be the pretty pictures of all of us uh my name is p I'm from L2 beat and I would like to welcome every one of you to this panel uh we're going to talk about recent progress in solving ethereum scalability challenges and I think we have some fantastic panelist today uh so I hope you all will enjoy the panel and I would like each and every one of you to now introduce yourself quickly you and your project Marcus you're first sure hi uh I'm Marcus can you hear me okay uh yeah maybe like okay a little closer hi I'm Marcus I'm with Tao uh Tao is the type one ZK evm rollup oh hi everyone my name is Patrick mccy I work at the arbitrum foundation I'm supposed to focus on research and education so this pel is really relevant but recently I focused a lot of time on governance and working with the Dow which is also his own fun unique experience thank you hi everyone I'm Stan um I work for metal Labs I'm a community manager at metal Labs the team behind ZK sync ZK sync is a type four zkm and uh yeah I've been also studying and completing my PhD studying online communities hello I'm orist I'm an engineer at scroll and just following uh the order scroll is a type 2 ZK evm but what that means for you as a Dev is that you can copy paste your code and it should just work okay thank you and now I think we'll just start with a warm-up question uh to get us started what in your opinion are the biggest challenges that ethereum is facing right now in terms of scalability and uh feel free to pick it up in any order I have an answer a non-conventional one is that the biggest challenge in my opinion is actually not a technical one but rather one that has to do with the meta level as in we are still in a super super early stage and we are in a niche of a niche of a niche and so just Al this leads to this situation where there's a huge shortage of talent a huge shortage of um users and in the end also not really big mass of use cases and so that kind of bottlenecks the development the pace of development of this space a lot yeah I can jump in I mean I think the the the technical problem is if you just consider ethereum itself it's the cost of data and theil I mean the ultimate battl neck is how much data can be pushed through the network at any moment you know what are the bandwidth constraints there in a short period of time because that's the data availability problem that rups have to rely on and I think that should really be the big Focus for at least the the community in the short short and medium term is you know dank sharding or Proto sharding data availability sampling and really just trying to optimize for one publishing data and storing recent data but I think just on that point that was also why I was thinking like what's the biggest challenge right now because you know we're all tiis we love to think about deep technical problems that are very objective and easy to solve but the user experience is terrible I mean I told the gona safe guys is I'm like guys build a better website I'm stuck using safe now and it's so difficult um I mean raise your hand if you think no to safe is hard to use use some people I can't actually see the audience but um okay I don't think anyone raised their hands there you go maybe that's the joke um but no but I think like the like wallets need to be improved you know like at some point we're going to have 10 20 30 50 different rule UPS or offchain systems and trying to migrate your assets from one system to another is still very painful or even just trying to withdraw your assets from that system is also very painful so I think a huge focus should be on the wallet experience and just making it easier for people to use it system like what's the point of scaling if it's just very hard to use not not even expensive just difficult I agree there and I would piggy back on both of your answers and I think there is um obviously a technical issue a technical problem that needs to be solved in order to um to get to reach the masses but there is also like a social component to it an educational component to it for educating and onboarding the next billion of users um I think scaling technically is we have a I think the community has a pretty clear vision of where to go but the social layer remains very much underst studied and how to you know the ux problems how do I bring my grandmother on chain how do I bring my little brother on chain um how do I and why yeah and and why exactly so the application layer like for what kind of application we will bring the people on chain so I agree with both of you that there is a technical issue and social issue but also like the educational and user experience that remains btle next to bringing the next billion of users yeah I would say it's a mix between marketing and Technical aspects of it so from like a marketing perspective like I have a family member that has been using ethereum for years but he has done very little with it I don't think he's ever even used like uni swap before which is crazy to me but um yeah I think advocating for like rollups and scalability is great uh the other blocker is the technical aspect of it so I think with EIP 4844 I think have way way more scalability I think it's estimated to have like maybe 10 times the amount of scalability roughly depending on the transaction type but uh and and again the blocker is just like ethereum has like fixed block space and we just need to find a way to make the most out of it out of not only the execution layer but the consensus layer I think I think these are all great points and I with with the following questions I hope that we can get more into both the technical aspect but also some of the less technical maybe governance aspects of of all of this a follow-up question that I will have is we kind of assume and and take it as granted and and uh never question this I think right now but the the current road map to scaling ethereum is rollups right there were some other Solutions but but why is it Roll-Ups actually why why each and every one of you just decided yeah Roll-Ups are the best and we're going to have our companies build rollups um I mean I have a really silly thesis around this that I've been running with since 2016 and hopefully people don't laugh at it too much um so back in 2016 I was a PhD student and I was focus on cryptocurrencies um my adviser told me at the time when he was younger he used to play horse racing games on the internet you know you get your money you put it in the website you play this horse racing game I think he probably got rugged a few times but he likes to gamble on virtual horses you know that's what people like to do I don't question their their interests but after hearing about that story I I thought well you know the whole point of cryptocurrency is to minimize trust so what would be cool is if I could take my assets lock it into a website play this horse racing game withdraw my funds and throughout that entire experience I never had to trust the operator I didn't have to trust with my funds I didn't have to trust them with the rules of the game they're just providing me a service and they're collecting a fee for doing that so there always been my sort of running thesis you know how can we make this sort of dream come alive and I thought the Bitcoin lightning Network could do that back in 2016 so I spent a lot of time working on state channels and then we realize is solving the wrong problem you know the whole point of B payment channels is given it you know like three different databases can you synchronize an update across those databases channels are amazing at doing that they're like a fast bridge where really what solves our problem is rollups you know way rollup is just a better way to build this uh offchain system right I don't have to trust the operator but I still get this really nice web to experience you know fast confirmation they can build whatever funky games that they want or adaps but custody becomes optional or even as I guess as vitalic blog post said back in 2019 custody becomes a liability you know they do want to take custody of our funds but they want to provide us a service so to me that's always been my running thesis of why this technology is really exciting and again it's a really dinky example but you know I was a student that's how you you pursue interest and ideas maybe some context to add to this the this my way of thinking about a blockchain such as Bitcoin or ethereum is it only is valuable because people believe it is valuable and so what Patrick says is um we now want to be building out systems that take advantage of ethereum's um security but the security is so high because over the past years the market decided such that people believe ethereum is secure and there's a lot of money in the system and it has been proven because of that and it's a self-reinforcing cycle and so I would argue I like ethereum don't get me wrong but uh the the one of the main reasons why we are here and uh 1 2 3 four people are working at rollups is not that rollups are such a great thing or ethereum is such a great thing it's that because of some coincidence and streak of flck it is ethereum that became established as the standard and it might not be the best one it might be the query of uh this decade that is not the best one objectively um but it has historical Roots but now that it is around it pays off to lay out your keyboard shortcuts such that you can copy and you can paste easily using the quty keyboard and not the farak one and so I guess that's what we are doing we are taking what we have and we are trying to make the the best out of it like I guess Marcus indicated yeah um I would take I would argue that there was perhaps um some external forces that led also to to to the adoption of rollup it's um when there were all the layer one I would say Wars um I think the public in the community has noticed that there were strong properties in ethereum that you wanted to have in the blockchain you wanted permissionless you wanted credible neutrality you wanted sship resistance and these properties they were not guaranteed in other layer ones and I think there were perhaps a shift in the community vision of why how we could use ethereum moving computation of chain was apparently appropriate in order to scale ethereum and while keeping these properties that makes ethereum uh valuable as a community so I think that's that's a bit like over the years we as a community came came to the realization seeing all the landscape of H layer one that ethereum um had some very valuable properties and you could move some less valuable one like computation of chain um and that's how I think rollup came up to become um the prefer solution to scale ethereum yeah there was a talk uh during I think ZK Warsaw this week talking about infinitely scaling ethereum and I think through history originally they were planning on having like maybe like 64 different shards for ethereum but the issue with that is you're fragmenting kind of like the security of ethereum potentially with that so the the new road map that I think vitalic is really just like really passionate about is a role of future because of keeping most of the security the same while being able to abstract abstract all the execution layer type of uh like data to a rollup have the same levels of security with the consensus and execution layers of ethereum can I add one more comment actually I forgot about that does so maybe a raise of hands does anyone remember the old execution sharding proposals by ethereum or any of the academic ones okay maybe raise your hand if you thought they could be implemented exactly look at that no one raised their hand the proposals were awful they were just terrible um there's also one other qu I wanted to ask one more question because it occurred to me when others were speaking and this is sort of like why are rollups as a technology stack important um so I'm going to ask a question to everyone here has anyone here ever lost a job opportunity because they couldn't be trusted has anyone here ever lost a job opportunity because they couldn't be trusted okay that's what I expected so no one raised their hand so I was in Nigeria recently in Kenya and I asked exactly the same question to the audience and nearly every single person in the audience raised their hand and they also laughed about it a little bit cuz they're like this is so obvious of course we've lost job opportunities cuz we couldn't be trusted and that's who so sobering cuz it sort of highlights the difference between people here like all of us who are sort of quite privileged where we don't lose job opportunities because we can't be because we can be trusted where in other countries especially like Nigeria this technology stack allows them to join the global community in a way where they can provide us a service and we don't have to trust them so they no longer lose these opportunities and to me that was just like a sobering moment where you're like wow this can actually really impact people who suffer these problems that's so alien to everyone here just wanted to highlight that because it's a very recent experience and I still think about it yeah I think it's a very good point especially with what you guys have talked before that scaling has actually these two phes right the technical phase but also like the human phase like why do more people want to join this space how can they do it like what are the ux challenges all of this I would like to actually now go to some questions to uh each one of you specifically and starting with Marcus uh you're working with Tao of course how has Tao approached the issue of ethereum scalability and what sets it apart from other Solutions so yeah we're a type 1 ZK evm and we're trying to be as close to etherum as possible so under like under the hood what's happening is we're using gu to kind of have our execution uh layer environment and we're really trying as closely as possible not to modify that to be true to ethereum and uh right now we're also exploring other clients potentially because like the go ethereum client is like the flagship client that the ethereum foundation supports but there's other upand cominging clients that are extremely performant like the rust ethereum client and uh we're planning on actually integrating that because I think the sync time is like 50 hours or like something like that it's it's insane the performance so I think we need just the eth get proof with like a storage component of that and then we'll start testing the r ethereum client for potential integration okay and and with the you mentioned you want to be as as close to ethereum as possible I looked at your road map and there is a lot of um talk about ZK proofs and the fee structure right and so how does the these two plays out for example especially the fees right one thing uh with rollups is that because they are on Layer Two it might not be obvious what the costs for all of the different operations should be how are you looking into this yeah so when we originally launched our test net we did not support EIP 1559 but we now do and I think that really came down to just supporting the rlp proofs for that and I actually want to um kind of expand on that in terms of just like being up to date we're actually also testing the rlp component of EIP 4844 with The Blob data format so how does the blob data format work if the blobs are on Tao so the the main the main thing is we're trying to just make sure that like if subm if it's submitted on uh L1 we're able to like parse the data to make sure that all the blob data is correct on a theum itself okay okay makes sense so maybe the good person next would be arest because scroll is also a ZK rollup that is similarly to Tao uh not yet released and uh I have a question about what's the steps required for you to actually be live on Main net yeah that's uh very well-timed question in fact we uh have just uh two weeks ago launched our final Milestone prior to main net the sepolia scroll sepolia test net um that has full feature priority with our future main net so what we are still working on in order to go main net is actually um all sorts of security audits this is a very high priority on our road map and um this is something that we don't want to make compromises on so we are having several audit teams audit our components and other than that we are still of course improving performance and improving resilience and um sight sight reliability in the back in the back end but we are basically you are basically as a user able to experience what scroll main net will be like already and uh I I can tell you as a developer it's actually quite surprising that you literally go to remix.ogg and you literally exchange the RPC endpoint and things work there is uh things that I think we will come to and discuss at length later such as proof overflow issues and so on um that are in the little asterisk um but other than that um yeah give it a go yeah actually the the asterisks might be important because as I think think everyone knows just building those rollups is like a super complex task and and especially with the things that we found that are easy right it turns out that oh actually because of some special things like for example for fraud prooof system it turns out that maybe proving the execution is actually quite easy but then there is this whole game theoretic aspects of getting people to coordinate and and for like ZK systems oh maybe the actual execution is easy but for example for scroll Maybe supporting force transactions is hard and I wanted to ask what are the challenges that you would say you were facing or you were facing you know with scroll when when building this all of this we care about decentralization a lot and this is a very awkward thing to say because decentralizing things is really hard and uh at the same time you face all of the pressure uh from the community to finally go main net and to finally be usable and it also feels to an engineer again it feels kind of um sensible to uh give a Half Baked product to the community because it's already 10 times better than what uh maybe the alternative would be um but it's not what you are aiming for and so right now in fact decentralizing the the provs has been our first priority and that has been um yeah quite challenging in terms of even those again non-technical and uh boringly human Dimensions such as how do we orchestrate up having all of all of the people who are running a Prova with a big machine and so on to actually upgrade the software when we want to go fast and roll out new features and so on and we don't want to um like have those long um notice periods and so on we want to be able to move fast like this things are quite challenging and what's going to be way more challenging of course is going to be decentralizing the sequences and so that's something that we will not have at mainnet but that's something we are working on already and that's something we care about deeply as well yeah thank you and and you touched a bit upon the the decentralization aspect especially with giving away control right to the community and so I think Patrick you're the best person to follow up on that I know arbitrum has made this bold move to uh Act give control right to the Dow and uh I'm wondering how would you like reflect on that what what were the good things that came out of this I know there have also been some like bumps in the road so maybe you can like follow up on this yeah and get some contact so I've been at the orbitum foundation now for about six months uh prior to that I was moved to Independent I didn't have any you know I wasn't in any roll out project and 6 months ago was the arbitrum air drop maybe you raise your hand did anyone here receive the air drop says out of Interest that's awesome congratulations guys welcome to the Dow no but I guess the point is that the Dow was La you know the airdrop happened the Dow was launched and um I've never worked with a DA in my life you know I'm a technical researcher I like to understand how stuff works under the hood I have no experience with Dallas whatsoever and on my third day at the foundation I was making slides about proof of stake ethereum for a presentation and next thing I know everything's expl on Twitter and I'm like what's going on guys like what happened and then you know you know on hindsight and I think this is really important by the way so the foundation the way the foundation wanted to be funded was that we put a proposal to the Dow that the Dow would you know hopefully approve and fund us and let us you know start executing on our mission statements and of course the DA they discovered their proposal and they're like why why are we giving you money you know why are we giving money to the foundation and they rejected it outright you know completely complete reject ejection and I think that's really important you know it really set the tone that the da is not going to accept they're not going to rubber stamp our proposals you know there's a real Dow out there there's real people who are you know active on a daily basis evaluating proposals that reach the Dow and of course anything we propose they're also going to evaluated on equal Merit so I think that's really important you know it's a it's a real da it's is also exceedingly powerful both over like for example after that uh that episode the way it was resolved was that the foundation's funding and treasury is an investing wallet over four years and the Dow has the power to uh slow down accelerate or totally remove you know the remaining the remaining vesting of our of our Treasury and so how many rup projects out there can have their treasury removed by their Dow I don't think any other project would take that on you know we we're very accountable to our Dow um I'm trying think what what what what else is I think what's also is important to highlight in terms of you know working towards this decentralized governance what the found the way the foundation likes to think about it is that we like to think that da is the brain and we're the hands so we have our own mission statements that we execute on you know the Dow has given us that right but we've made a deliberate decision to try to step back as a neutral party and allow the Dow the right proposals work together and get their proposals funded and then execute on it so there's anyone in the room you let just say you think oh I don't like how the foundation's do an XYZ or maybe you're thinking oh why is the foundation not doing XYZ you can actually just go straight to the Dow write a proposal work with the delegates if it gets approved you can get funded to go execute on the proposal that you care about and our job is just to be there and help you operationally to execute on it and so as part of that I think initially early on because I don't think this has ever really existed to the best of my knowledge so I think the Dow is a bit slow in the first two months cuz everyone's getting their head around this new setup the amount of autonomy and control and power that they have but now six months in it's very active know there's a lot of proposals going through the form a lot of proposals being voted on and there's a lot of active discussions among the delegates and how the Dow should move forward towards the betterment of arbitrum and ethereum so yeah it's been a really fun six months and also it is pretty crazy how much power has been given to the Dow and I think that's the right decision that was done obviously I wasn't part of that decision but I think they made the right decision on that yeah thank you and and the other part about arbitrum outside of the Dow is I was going to ask a question about bald and then today you know I wake up I go to Twitter and there's this new thing called stylus so I'm going to ask like a double question right the the two new recent things that that you announced are bald and sty and can you just explain what what are they how do they help help scalability yeah of course so I think the important distinction here is that both proposals came from offchain Labs so in the arbitr ecosystem you can say that right now there's three big you know entities that are part of it there's the arbitrum Dow and the foundation and the foundation our job is to represent the da and support the da in its in this Mission all CH Labs is a completely separate entity and they've came up with two new proposals one is bold which is a better design for the pro pro proof system that we can talk about and then stylist is more of a you know a better let's say virtual machine where you can Implement solidity smart contracts but you can also Implement in languages that compile down the wasm like rust C++ and it's a first class citizen alongside solidity and they can also talk to each other so let's say you have your contracts in in solidity someone has their smart contracts in Rust they can also be interruptible and communicate with each other I think could even go so far that for the wasm aspect of it they even reuse the data model for ethereum so they're very compatible you know back and forth you know that was one a big part of the design but what's important to highlight is that those proposals came from offchain labs and in order for that to get in the arbitrum the network you know arbitrum one or arbitrum Nova it has to go through the Dow so they're going to have to make a proposal with enough evidence that will convince the Dow the vote for this and actually include it in the arbitrum network as well so you know that's sort of demonstrates again the power of the Dow that you know we just can't upgrade the network with these new features anymore it has to actually be proposed and hopefully hopefully they'll vote for it because I think they're cool ideas but you know it's always always up to the doubted as side I must say personally I'm I'm very happy about that because L2 beat is one of the biggest delegates there and so in a way we can you have a lot of influence more influenc than I do I can't even vote uh but yeah I I'm I'm looking forward to both arbitrum governance and and governance in other systems and and speaking of which estan it's it's time for you and I actually want to start with a question about decentralization ZK sync was a project that that started very early on and and implemented a lot of features and one of the things that happened early on in zik sing is the introduction of the security Council which is uh which is one good step towards decentralization but now my question is how are you planning to further decentralize the project so there are several steps that are being taken towards uh decentralization um one obvious step that we that's been talking about is decentralizing the sequencer uh that's um an obvious step that's um we need to to go through to ensure also credible neutrality we don't want to be the sole operator of uh an order of transactions the second one is the decentralization of the pr um that's something that uh remains to be done I don't think any project as well you have been experimenting I think with the decentralized pro network uh this is another step that uh needs to be done and in the end there will be governance as well what kind of this we have distributed provs oh you have as well so yeah and not incentivized yet on the testet so so yeah for us we we still remain to to do that we've been working on optimizing the approver and lowering the hardware requirement um and then there will be the decentralization that is needed and finally there will be governance is like what kind of decision Mak do you want to Grant uh um the community um Patrick has been mentioning like you can be very generous like in term of power that you grant the community or more restrictive ethereum has been I'm not sure that there is much power that is granted to the community itself to actually upgrade ethereum uh so there are different models that here needs to be considered but uh yeah the centralization of the sequencer decentralization of the pr decentralization of decision- making yeah I mean I canot a comment about the ethereum comment cuz I think that's really important is uh I gave this talk two days ago as well about you know towards decentralized governance and in ethereum and Bitcoin the way it works is rough consensus has anyone ever heard that term before rough consensus no one has okay so rough consensus is a bit like a hot potato it's a bit like you having a potato you don't want to hold it so you pass it to me and I pass a potato on you know no one wants to take responsibility for governing ethereum and so the way governance actually works is that someone submits a proposal and then the key stick holders in the network you know the proof of the stickers the people on the peer-to-peer Network the dab Community they all issue a signal they say here's a signal I'm happy the upgrade I'm Ready the upgrade and if there's enough signals and you can do a bit of a sniff test you know you can sniff it and say I think there's enough signals out there then there's a Flag Day decided and then the upgrade actually happens so yeah no one takes any responsibility in in uh ethereum governance and that's on purpose because it wants to make it it difficult to capture and if you don't Define how governance works then it's very difficult to do a governance attack where for these rule UPS rough consensus doesn't really work because in rough consensus if two parties disagree you can fork and go your separate ways you you have ethereum and ethereum classic they went their separate ways they disagreed on the future of ethereum or in a rule up you can't do that because the funds are held in a smart contract and you can't Fork a smart contract you know if all the assets are there then you need to convince the smart contract that chin the rule and the only way to do that is to have explicit governance like some voting protocol so for example that's what the arbitrum da does there's onchain governance where people can cast their vote if it exceeds a threshold then it will go through the smart contract suite and the Act and the upgrade will execute onchain with the the smart contracts themselves so there's no multi sake that's doing the upgrade it's actually onchain governance with direct voting and that seems like you know the best of all evils in terms of governance so far for these for these systems yeah I guess maybe uh we were a bit too enthusiastic about rofs for the past uh 40 minutes I guess there's so many things that need to be said that many people don't realize like this problem gets exaggerated by the fact that rollups suffer from an economy of scale and so it's quite likely that if one roll up a mass a lot of users it will be preferred over other rollups so this becomes way more of an issue even then because we it's kind of difficult to establish a future in which there's many rollups and if one rollup needs like this explicit governance decision it's not that bad so yeah there's many many issues with roll up still when it comes to decentralization but one thing that I think can be said about the governance of rollups is that on one head of course you have the issue of how do you like upgrade it steer it and stuff but also Al there is this other path where and I think ziki syn is exploring it h and it I I'm framing it uniquely now but like letting the users decide their own security and I think this is what ZK Porter wants to do and what is even ZK Porter and what's the road map there so Z ZK Porter is a um proof of concept and soon product uh that is going to be released um in which uh that that we call vition vition is not a term that has been coined by matter Labs or ZN it has been coined by Stark net starkware um and um essentially here you let the user choose what the security assumption they want to have and the trade-off is between security and cost um I think what we've noticed in the past years is that people are ready to to sacrifice a bit of security assumptions in order to have cheap transaction ch unforunately yes unfortunately why don't you care about Security Guys um yeah seriously however I think um so giving that opportunity to the users might not be the I mean here we can ask the question who would be willing to sacrifice a bit of security um for cheaper transactions I mean does anyone here use coinbase raise your hand who uses coin yeah on okay I'm not the tax authorities don't worry I'm joking the point most people use exchanges so they do trade off security exactly so ZK is that realization that um you could uh scale massively um in term of performance at the expense of a little bit of security while sharing the liquidity with the rollup so you can decide for each transaction you can let the user choose like what kind of security assumptions they want and what kind of cost profile they would decide on so um yeah while um not sharing the problem of you know uh fragmenting the liquidity at the same time so that's essentially what zip or is about um the data availability is guaranteed by a committee that we call the Guardians and that should be incentivized and this is more a social problem and what kind of incentivization do you need for them to guarantee that availability um that's essentially what zor is about thank you you know one reason that people are exploring Solutions like ZK Porter or or Validia for for for scaling is that data even though we figured out that with rollups you know we can just offload the computation of chain and just keep the data it turns out that the data is still expensive right and so this is why the the current like thinking is maybe we could have this data of chain but of course this comes with like uh security uh trade-offs as you said but one of the exciting things uh coming to ethereum hopefully soon is uh is is dun sharding or like Proto Dan sharding or like like Alpha version of it but anyway um and and for those of you who don't know it's a it's a proposal that will allow posting data blobs to ethereum which are going to be cheaper have some other trade-offs of uh data availability my question is how this proposal affects your thinking about about your project and and what what it can do and Marcus maybe you can start yeah it's a a pretty critical uh upgrade and uh I think too plans to uh launch for main at after because like out of the Geto we want to make sure that we have uh optimize the scalability with the uh upgrade for uh the rollups um I think dark DK sharding highlights I'm trying to think the best way to fridge this so for rops one of the security assumptions for rollups today is that anyone can look at the ethereum blockchain grab all the data all the historical data execute all the historical data and then a computer copy of the rule up themselves they can compute the same database as everyone else because they can get access to all the historical data because it's on ethereum today the problem is that the peer-to-peer network does not guarantee that historical data can be retrieved they just do that today out of convenience you know you could if I'm a if I'm a node on the network I can delete the entire blockchain and just keep around the recent blocks so the only thing the peer-to-peer Network really guarantees is that recent data is publicly available that you can get access to the recent data for this rule up yeah this is why the term like data availability can be confusing for anyone that like doesn't know what we're talking about I I really recommend a recent Twitter thread by BK kevi he goes into like how data availability is actually a bad term and we should have the data publication which is at the point of like posting the transactions and then data storage which is what you mentioned like what happens to the data afterwards yeah exactly so when dank sharting comes along and it's full beasted mode then historical data just won't be publicly available anymore or I mean there's a good chance that it won't be you'll only have access to recent data and that fundamentally changes the security model for a lot of these rops or even just your ability to compute a copy of the database CU you're just missing historical transactions you literally can't you know compute a copy off it and so for me that's the big thing about Dan shardan is how it's going to impact the security assumptions that we make for Bops I think what is super interesting with d sharing and EAP 444 in general is that uh we are seeing a new market that is being created something new that is being priced which is this additional blub space um or yeah um so we will have I think in ultimately a market in which there is gas fees in which that going to is going to be priced hopefully cheaper with the um New blob space we're going to have blob space that is going to be priced up fully cheaper than guess prices as well and then with rollup we will have in addition the cost of proofs that it should be with the recent development marginal compared to um to storing on on on layer one so um I think we all going to benefit from this additional blob space um it's going to be interesting in how the competition among Layer Two for this blob space is going to affect the price of that additional storage that um the fmal storage that is going to be available in ethereum yeah that's that's a good point I'm actually worried people are going to like start you know uploading movies to the ethereum blockchain and and I think this is an important point is that um in a lot of Technologies if we look at the energy sector for example we observe what we call a rebound effect that is every increase in efficiency leads to an increase in consumption um they've observed that um you know with the energy sector I think it might be the case also with ethereum every increase in efficiency and performance in ethereum or decrease in price gas fees will ultimately lead to an increase in consumption at least this is the promise of scaling is that we want more uh users more transactions um so there will be this interesting Dynamic I think and is going to be mainly observed in term of price um but this yeah this Dynamic is going to be interesting to observe I think um well now it sounds like it's like a almost a bad thing Pro like it's not a bad thing like let's be hon first of all we want data and we want state to expire we don't want people to have to keep everything forever and never ever be able to remove it like that's a feature not a back second of all I feel like C's on stage now that's nor his pitch but second of all like isn't that what we all want people putting movies on the blockchain or people using the blockchain more like I don't know I don't think think we should be complaining about that oh no I'm sorry the only reason they mentioned movies is it was like a mental shortcut from I I thought we wanted this block space for rollups right and and I was worried other people might just take it away and I'm not making a judgment I I actually would love to see a future where you could like put everything on the blockchain and you wouldn't care it will all be secure and it will be magically everything will be great right I'm sorry do decentral Iz ation some people might decide to put a movie up you know what I think actually back in 2010 2011 someone did put an ask you know a i aski movie on the Bitcoin blockchain and it's still there obviously cuz it's there no but seriously just to give maybe some numbers um I think a general user a normal user can think about a rollup as an order of magnitude in cost decrease and uh Proto Shing is another order of magnitude and and cost decrease so like I I think that's what most people expect these days okay and uh the next question would be to actually just loop back to the start with things that you mentioned that scaling is not just technical things and and I wanted to ask about ux challenges related to scaling with with more users with with more capacity we start to feel it even today that that the tools that we use might not be adequate for the job and and I was wondering how do you envision uh the theux challenges of the space being solved I mean I think I think the first example that's very I rer Pacific is for let's say Security Council Members know ideally they should all be using Hardware wallets for standing transactions but then you need to check if I'm a security council member and there's a proposed upgrade that fixes a critical bug I need to evaluate what I'm signing before I sign it and if you use a ledger a ledger will give you a domain hash and trying to work out what the hell that is it's such a difficult task like the first step is just tell people what they're signing you know like make it easy to check oh this is what was proposed to me and I can actually check on the hardware oh yeah that is I can sign this now that seems like the lowest hanging fruit for like Security Council Members that needs to be fixed a proper UI for these bloody Hardware wallets um sorry I let someone else go next I just want to get that frustration out no I I think it's necessary and I think we are seeing some progress I remember I think last year on this stage we were talking about how the most common the most popular wallet out there um asks you for like token spend permission and it says do want to authorize 2.57 08 e68 token spent and so at least now that is gone I think we are seeing some um improvements and I think that with rollups I guess standardizing soon um hopefully there will actually be more critical mass and also just more incentive to be working on better wallets and better ux overall and also I think just the fact alone the ver by by by by the virtue of a lower um average transaction fee alone and there will be just more incentive to actually invest into your D because there will be more users Ju Just like throw a bone into all of this do you actually think theux should come first or the user should come first they should complain and then we fix the ux I'm I'm happy to I well there I'm speaking on my behalf I don't know about the the whole team but I would say that the ux is is the most important ultimately today I don't care about the technology that is behind my email uh box I don't care about the technology that is uh that enjoy helps me to enjoy Netflix you know on my laptop so I think the ux is going to be a very important one and in that regard there were several important step account abstraction is been one of them um how to be able to bring on board you know the next generation of of of users we can now subsidize their gas fees we can now um offer them social recovery we can now um have different signature schemes so I think this is a big Advance um for ux we haven't seen yet the I would say the the killer app that will uh allow to on board easily um non Crypton native users but I think it's a step in the right direction already um yeah I was going to say I think we should have a proactive approach to this because like we shouldn't be like oh let's wait for a fire to start it's like no let's prevent fires from happening as much as possible and I had a conversation with a devil one time regarding like uh ux they said like ideally your documentation should be so good that there shouldn't be any questions but if there is then you have to be like very proactive and understand why they're asking this and try to fill in those gaps so I think it really just I again puts down the documentation just Clarity at what cost do you work on the documentation in your basement for 2 years and there's none for two years to have a perfect one two years in well I would say it's um you you start with what you think is there and then maybe go through your coms maybe through Discord or telegram or Twitter and see like where people might get stuck and then be proactive and be like oh I didn't even think of that I thought that was intuitive but that actually isn't because I didn't know that about the protocol so then hearing that feedback or like looking at even like maybe a GitHub issue cuz I don't know I think GitHub is such a powerful tool to just quickly like be like oh here's an issue here's the pr and then it's all resolved I mean can I make one comment on this so I know as a community we always use the Microsoft code from the N or like 80s where they're like developers developers developers you know developers developers developers and we do need more developers developers are really important but we need designers you know we need designers designers designers we need people who understand humans you know programmers should never make interfaces cuz we don't understand people yes we need designers designers designers and so yeah I think we just need to expand our poll of people we really really really want in this industry yeah and now speaking of questions that people might have to the protocols I think we still have like three minutes left and maybe we can take some audience questions yeah we see one was it check okay so the question is if you would have to name other Layer Two that you are a fan of but not the one that you work for so which one would be and why I'll start I guess uh maybe like optimism because they're not here just to give a shout out I I they have they have a great uh Twitter like Vibes so it's like yeah they're cool to hang out with and they had a really cool booth at e Denver as well they had like this kind of like flower thing that was like really cool um I I can go next I'm trying to think the best by answer I like most of the r up projects uh I mean I maybe my me I I can give you my mental model of how I think about them so maybe start with optimism they got great Vibes you know it's all about the culture for optimism um I like to think Stark net are like crazy Wizards with their chy stuff um you know I always see scroll as being exceedingly ethereum aligned you know they're basically ethereum well they're not basically ethereum you know they're so so ethereum focused as like part of their Core Blood or their their blood um ZK sink are extremely product focused they keep a lot of things close to their chest because they're just focused on the product I've always saw arbitrum is sort of extremely focused like At first I made the J dur my presentation the other day I thought they take their funding in 2019 and write papers but they're just exceedingly focus on delivery and they want to get this pie you know the know the on the l2b website they want the green they want the green slices they want a spinach pie that is their one big focus of their goal um and then I guess Tao is more new on the Block you know they were previously with Loop ring that proven history of that they can build these systems but I'm still trying to work out the two-word vibe that I'm going to give them so yeah that's the work in progress right now so ask me in a year and I'll have a better description of the project well they got a cool like like Zelda like logo I guess so that's pretty cool the the the tri Force Triforce exactly so I guess they're nerds aren't they they're big Gamers um I agree there um they I mean each projects has different you know strength I think optimism has been very interesting to watch in term of governance their experiment I think it's you know splitting into the governance and having the collective I think optimism has been doing a great job in governance I mean arbitrum obviously has for proof implemented which is something that is also interesting to watch scroll you've been also working very well in to the developer experience and bringing the ZK rollup starware has been we all inate the technology for developed by starware um mostly I mean they've been innovating in that space with zero ledge proofs and Tao as well you've been also very close to uh to the ethereum community and to the PSC so I think all the projects have different strength and we can all learn from each other um and we all I think watching a bit each other to to learn from each other's strength yeah right did we get to call PSC a rollup I see okay I I'm going to have a hot take on this fuel V1 the only rollup uh it it just has one fault it's not even written in solidity we have time for one last question let's make it a short one yeah as a smart contract developer I think the first thing that came to my mind uh when I think about scaling is asynchronous and synchronous blockchain CHS like we can take an example a salana blockchain and asynchronous blockchains they have kind of different vision of solving the problem with scalability because when we have for example a bunch of users let's say 1 million users sending um let's say some transaction to some smart contract at at the same time um we need to process uh that transactions either synchronously or asynchronously so so what can you say about asynchronous blockchain and their future I mean I I remember in the early days like when aeem was getting started they considered adding an async command to the evm and I think everyone's glad they didn't do that because that would have been so complicated back in 2015 you know you start off simple with just you know getting this to work and then you add on the cool features um I think in terms of so I think this is really important to highlight is that what makes blockchain this entire ecosystem so excited in is that people can take their funky idea they can deploy it into this Marketplace and it's really the users who decide what's valuable you know do we care about these asynchronous blockchains do we care about ethereum do we care about the evm or this special new programming language that everyone wants to adopt and then it's really the marketplace that decides was ultimately valuable and I guess for like something like salana versus the ethereum Bitcoin Community there is really to do with you know what does it mean to be decentralized I think for me that it always goes back to that like the short is this triangle was a sort of you know can you decentralize who runs the network can you decentralize who can check that the the Network's correct and valid know the verifiers and then can you decentralize who can afford to use the network and for a very long time for maybe 10 years that was this weird triangle that we couldn't solve so if you look at like salana suie Etc they went towards you know less decentralized user set by making transactions fee as much as they can but then the operators are fairly centralized you know it's only like a handful of parties and like definity back in the day you had to buy the hardware from an approved supplier before you could be an operator in their on their system not necessarily the most decentralized Vision um where ideally with raps that's one way to break the triangle because you know ethereum can still maintain its goal of maximizing The Operators then you leech off that like we're leeches in a way we leech off their security and then try to build a scalable system that's affordable for users so maybe that's my answer sort of you know our approach is try and break the break that triangle now so we don't have to make those then we could have like you know async operations as a on a rollup you know maybe you can finally Port that over after all these years I just add briefly on top of what we discussed in terms of decentralization I think um diversification is an important element and just having teams around that work on completely different concepts I think that's very valuable and we are early there may may be a first or second move Advantage but I think the last move advantage which will ultimately count most okay thank you and I think that will conclude today's panel so please thank you to the panelists thank you