# What the F**k to do now that we will have thousands of rollups? - Panel

- Channel: [ETH Belgrade Community](https://streameth.org/eth-belgrade-community)
- Date: 2024-10-07
- Duration: 1:01:22
- Topics: People & Blogs
- Watch: https://streameth.org/watch/yt-HinODCJDJLY
- YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HinODCJDJLY

## Description

What the F**k to do now that we will have thousands of rollups?
- Bogdan Habic (Tenderly)
- Sahil Sen (Quicknode)
- Kirill Fedoseev (Blockscout)
- Francesco Andreoli (Metamask)
- moderated by Hubert Kotliński (L2BEAT)

## Transcript

yeah I like to welcome you all uh to our panel called what the [ __ ] do we do now that we have thousands of rollups uh so a bit of the let down right now we have 28 I believe active rollups on lb.com uh and 30 of them are upcoming so not uh thousand yet but it will probably be like that in like couple of years uh so yeah I'm Hubbert I'm from L2 be uh we are doing we are making this analytic website uh about rollups about their tvl security decentralization factors and whatnot uh and I will be your moderator today so I would like to introduce my guest speakers uh so we'll have sahil sen from quicknote Kil fosa from blog Scout Bogdan habit from tenderly and Francesco Andreoli from consensus so guys if you could like just uh talk for a minute about what you are doing and the companies that you are part of works as well so good I can start what's up everybody uh my name is Franchesco I'm part of the devil team at consensus I'm mostly focused on uh you know metamask developer tooling with SDK and snaps uh yeah but lately I'm also like covering a little bit like our zkm Linea and yeah excited to be here Belgrade is amazing and uh yeah thanks so much how many developers do we have in room before we're starting conversation okay sounds good cool cool cool awesome hi my name is k I'm the head of research for protocols research at blog Scout blog Scout is the most widely used blockchain Explorer open source blockchain Explorer supporting all of the thousands and hundreds of different rollups layer ones and it's basically everything evm compatible um so we are excited to be here all right uh hi everyone I'm s sen I work on the developer relations team of quick node quick node is a tooling provider SL RPC infrastructure provider we provide rpcs and apis for a lot of chains almost 30 now and we also have other tools like marketplaces where third party API tools can integrate their apis and uh those apis can be called from right from the quick node endpoint just like how tenderly has one uh uh add-on which lets you simulate your transaction before actually sending the transaction so it's it's that's an example but there are other add-ons as well so yeah hi Bogan one of the co-founders in CTO at tenderly uh for those that don't know tenderly is a full strike infrastructure platform so what does that mean other than a nice landing page uh tagline is basically we have tools or services or infrastructure to cater all the way from hey I have an idea I'm typing it on on my laptop all the way to production so simulations as suil mentioned rpcs as well uh the main debugger and profiler of probably every team that's building in web 3 right now uh virtual testnet is a new thing that we released as well and we integrate actually with all of your teams as well so I I'm very honored to be here the tenderly snap uh okay so uh as we know there are a lot of rollups they are all dirty cheap they are all um very fast to use uh and it's getting easier and easier to actually deploy one uh back like 3 years ago there was only like seven projects on our website right now as I mentioned it's over 50 so it's uh getting like a bit crazy to track uh all of them uh basically you can use like free open software like op stack or ZK stack or anything like that to deploy one or you can even use rollup as a service provider that will deploy the rollup for yourself and most of the users are actually using uh more than one rollup and you actually need to get Fs somehow like send them between those different solutions and so my first question is with like thousand of rollups that are not easily interoperable how can we improve the user experience for those operating on different rollups and what strategies in Europe opinion guys can we use to make it convenient because uh I really hate when I need to like send a certain token right to the to the other L2 I need to basically search for like 10 or 15 minutes to find the bridge that actually supports that certain token and that certain uh solution right and hope you don't get hacked uh sure let me start so uh I would actually want to think about what the user means so we have the users that you mentioned of okay I want to bridge here and do some def stuff play a game or whatever I think there's additional users to a chain so this is the developers building on top of this chain this is the node operators which are keeping the network safe or unsafe depending on the L2 and then finally you also have infrastructure providers which you have here on the panel which are also kind of a user of this network and I think the lower down the stack you go the more [ __ ] up it is as in I know people think bridging and other stuff is complex but trust me supporting a different VM or different RPC or whatever what all of us are doing is also extremely hard to try to help here uh when it comes to I'm going to call it retail even though it's not retail usage I honestly think account abstraction at some point someone will nail that experience uh I always give an example of for example avocado from instap or those wallets that completely abstract way from which chain you're interacting with and then also what is the underlying gas token I honestly am a believer that Stables should be used for gas and and that's it uh and then for us lower down the stack I think we won't be able to fix it ever it's a Gloom Future Okay so uh do you want to add something maybe sure so what I think is that a interoperability layer which a lot of teams are working on can be pretty good for a end users's perspective obviously as bdan mentioned it will be very much complex and very much uh like not not easy for infrastructure level providers but at least for the end users the interoperability layer some for example something like what optimism is working on with OP stack so it's called super chain right so every chain which is built using optimis op stack or optimism stack will be able to access shared liquidity using that super chain so there will be very easier funds transfer and uh information sharing between the op stack chains so I think some something like that can be very helpful to improve the user experience for the end users but uh still we we already have polygon a layer right is doing basic exactly like that polygon a layer or ZK STX hyper chain layer so or cosos IBC by the way for so all of these are just example but still they are just for those particular ecosystems so there are still some silos so I guess I don't think it's going to get easier because there are so many chains coming up the the panel is all about that so I don't think it's going to get easier because someone needs to solve this thing the whole point of uh ethereum or creating these l2s were to make development easy and were to make uh one take one app and Deploy on another uh chain easier it it is like that but it's not actually like that as you mentioned bridging a token is not a great experience it's uh it's it has security risk it has uh waiting periods on on op rollups a lot of time if the if there's a dispute you have to wait 7 Days etc etc so there is a need of uh like Universal AG layer probabbly I don't know how if that's even if that's possible or not but some if if something like that can be developed where even op chains can talk with ZK chains and uh so for so on so forth something like that will be very good for users as a experience so like for example they can just use one app for example they can just use foraster and do a post on forecaster and that post can also be done on uh lens so that will be very nice right but like what about like security because if you have like one smart contract for example right on L1 that is like responsible for liquidity for couple of different chains right there is basically one single point of failure that may happen in the future yeah but there I think it's it won't be just one smart contract but uh but a decentralized committee like how data uh da committee works or like how right now there's been development on decentralized sequenc networks as well so I think something like that will have to come where there is a consensus Community it can be off chain as well but there is a consensus Community which committee which lets you do that for example how I think chain link is doing something similar with ccip where they have a consensus uh like node operators or validator operators for ccip which is offchain which lets you de on ramp and offramp across chains no matter which stack it's built on I think you can even try their like main bridge right now right I think it's life like so if you want you can do it uh yeah maybe black Scout would like to add something as well I mean for me as a user I think it makes it much easier to start using new chains to start doing something bridging tokens to them and do something on chain whenever I just see already familiar interfaces familiar protocols and everything I have used already before so it makes it much easier to onboard people from other rollups as most of the people are using more than one so it makes it this level for entry much easier much simpler whenever people are able to start using the familiar UI for blog explorers all the different RPC Services they see the familiar user interface and the protocol for for bridging some aggregator they used on other chains uh so for taxes and all the other stuff so I think that some chains are just too focused on building their own in-house infrastructure inhouse Forks of these different front ends explorers services like protocols and so yeah instead of just launching your own Unis fork with your own front content which is also a for something so it's just better to have some unified access which is uh basically to have some single interface which provides access to these different chains at the same time uh so yeah I think it's important to have this so is it like something similar to the stuff that vitalic bin I think uh mentioned recently to actually have something uh other than shared liquidity and interoperability providers so basically like a governance free uh tool that will like connect every single rollup out there so I think it could be both governance free and governance less so it's not always about just uh the protocol itself so protocols is just one part the source code that is deployed on chain but the other part is also just the front ends so just much easier to use the same front end across the chain even if the underlying protocols might be different but at least if it's available in the same interface so just uh yeah I think as as an example in the different decks and preach aggregators uh so yeah if you go to Lei or ban exchange they support all these different um dexes and breaches and they work completely different and for different chains they have different Bridges but you see the same interface for selecting like one chain one token and then destination chain and destination token and you just don't care what protocols are being used under the hood and so yeah this kind of abstraction level it really makes it much simpler to to on board people and to start using it can I ask a question yeah sure so um infrastructure providers are social proof in a sense so when you see Unis swap is actually deployed by Unis swap to a chain for me it's for example when I see metamask Bridge supports a chain I said I Outsource the due diligence to you guys and stuff like that I know it's similar for developers to tenderly they think it's not a [ __ ] chain if it has tenderly although that's not the case we just might have not talked to them do you think as infrastructure providers that we should censor which chains we support depending on how safe they are it's not always possible to censor because of course we also working in the open source world so anyone can host blog Scout for example and you don't always know if the block Scout is hosted by our team by some explorers a service provider or by some inhouse uh devop Steam for a particular chain so yeah I I think it's quite difficult question to in the open source world since you don't always know what's hosted by who um yeah but U anyway I don't think censorship is a no no I agree I just wanted to hear guys thoughts yeah I think it's always good to kind of delegate this um security scoring to some alternative provider like U again this example with the Dex and bridges aggregator so they display all these different quotes but then they can also show like there some aggregated security metric of the particular route like how secure they believe this this metric might might be or like you can display some score from L2 beit for example for a particular ol just to inform the users of the particular implications so I think this and the delegation of the security scoring might be might be a good approach yeah I I also have uh one thought so so right now we whatever chains we integrate are kind of mainstream chains right but we are also moving towards the rollup as a service pro provider so for those people who wants to launch their own chain smaller chains so for those people what we are going to introduce is uh our legal team and our developers will do kyd which is know your developer so there will be a process of kyc so that we do know that okay these developers are legit we have their contract signed we have the legal work done etc etc because you know and right as you mentioned earlier right now it's so easy to develop a chain like you can just there are even user interfaces you can just write the name you can select number of validators and there it is you get a Docker container you can just deploy the validators and there it is you have the own chain there you can deploy token scam people etc etc so there I think there is a need to some extent uh probably in the future there will be a very I think robust process of doing this kyc on chain but right now it has to happen via contracts legal tees etc etc okay so if only our friend Franchesco could also add his two sents on the topic yeah I just want to pick up quickly like I'm definitely excited about din like this decentralized node infrastructure where we are create this different RPC provider I think that's one thing then to answer your question like I I want to answer the question from the uh kind of like wallet uh angle and you know I think like the first kind of like touch point for users is obviously like you know wallet extension and I think like inability is definitely like a big core that's why I'm also excited about everything around like snaps and only VM compatible znap right so when people first touch point that have even preon preconfigured like non evm like let's say snaps on their extension is super cool to see people like I don't know like adding their Solana snap or like the stet snap and starting to interact directly with the non evm compatible layer too and I think like it cut a little bit like all the uh all the other side of the metal where users like like are super like is quite difficult also to onboard sometimes right and I think like coming directly from the first touch of point and I think like one things that that was the Lesser learned a little bit during the years is that you will have always first no wallet know exactly how the experience will be you know that every user is coming from different uh uh different background and different like use case Focus you will have always your defi heav users your non evm ecosystem compatible user right that is going from ecosystem to ecosystem and I think you will start to have like a uh kind of like Diversified and preconfigured extension based on their needs right I think that's that's that's kind of like the way that I'm seeing things evolving and uh and and the the second thing is that we need to make users but mostly like also developer in the community much more like active like like active not just in terms of feedback but also like active in building and extending our our products and uh and uh that's like I think one also of big Parts about this permissionless Innovation at the end everybody of us is trying to also like decentralize much more our product as we can right okay thank you so any of you want to add something or okay so okay my next question will be about something that you already tackled here so let's say we fixed ux you fix we fixed UI uh but as we already said it's getting easier and easier to actually deploy a rollup right uh So like um how do we actually address the security concerns when some rollups are like like highly tested let's say and secure While others are like deployed by some guy like you know from the street let's put it like that uh and by the unverified team and supposedly like in the couple of years probably 20% of rollups will be like very high level right of high quality but like 80% of them will be probably like pretty much uh like you know uh controlled by like some random guys that shouldn't actually be doing anything technical because they're like you know Business Development guys or marketers or anything like that is this like a way to actually do something like that lb.com I think is like helping with it a bit but maybe guys actually I think like you mentioned this curing thing right it's like because like when we'll automate too much of a process right you can deploy a rollup with a couple of clicks then you can basically deploy a new uh Explorer with a couple of clicks right they can do it permissionless then it's like kind of very easy for Bad actors to actually make like the whole scam chain not only like a scam contract token or anything like that but like whole chain could be like a trap for you but I think it's it's a very similar discussion during like the one that we had during defi summer when everybody was doing uh a defi project I think because when you think about it uh at that point it was very easy or with meme tokens now I it's it's more recent in our memories uh everybody can do a meme token I honestly think right now it's maybe even easier to spin a parole up than to do a meme token because for a meme token you need to do a picture of a dog or something for this one you don't particularly have to do anything uh I think the answer depends at least in my perspective is it like a short-term uh View of the world or like a long term for the short term I honestly think that we won't care uh blast is an amazing chain but people did put a lot of money before knowing what blast is inside so you could argue that either the team is good which is is like all of the blur ecosystem and everything around it but then also people wanted to earn yield this is why I compare it to the defi summary because it was very similar like you would ape into a farm you might get wrecked you might not get wrecked but you particularly didn't care that much about security so short term I honestly think that we won't fix this problem I think we will have a lot of exploits of a chain going down assets being stolen and and stuff like similar to Ico similar to anything where there's money long term uh I think it's a question I think we will tackle it a bit later but like where the economy of the world is going to live across which chains I'm not going to dive deeper into it at that point I think it's going to be part regulation I know that's not a favorite topic of the web three crowd but they honestly think that that's something that we cannot Escape uh regulation stuff like L2 beat like the know your developer stuff that you mentioned um infrastructure providers that have a holistic view of the ecosystem also giving some score of hey this team actually is not we know who they are they are nice to work with we we guess they don't won't rug you so I think a bunch of this will actually be offset to this human aspect of it much more than the technical one to be completely honest okay and any any view from like the wallet side like metamask for example yeah I mean do you just say said like you know who they are right and I think like this is an important question I think this is not just a technical question especially on the longterm run like people and users and developers will trust much more the ecosystem that people are building to like within like Linea you basically like know that okay there is consist is the mother company around you know that you know everything that's basically is happening around this ckvm you have like also like a wallet around you have inur around you have consist diligence around like you trust much more like an ecosystem around because you know if you're really looking at the short term you see every week like layer twos uh uh zkm like popping up like every week and uh it's very difficult to control but also like I think it's very difficult we are confusing users because a lot of people are uh it's even like very difficult to make people categorize the layer two kind of landscape every time they were giving a workshop even like uh like basic stuff you know difference around like what's an optimistic versus zkm like people don't see really this landscape because it's also like there are too many layer tools being shipped right now and uh and we see people that start to have assumption around okay this is just a rollup this is just Layer Two everything will be the same it's just another one but also like that's why it's very important to understand that it's not just a uh kind of like a technical road map challenge here it's also about driving like an ecosystem with strong ecosystem partner and having like a little bit like dependency with other like strong vertical and uh I think every player need to all Al like do their kind of have responsibility in activating also the right Community to drive also like this user adoption uh so it's kind of like a a longer game through through ecosystem and ecosystem Partners but all obviously like on the technical side too right but you want to leverage all the product that you have around around you right leveraging like developer tooling that are around in the ecosystem in the same time okay so like those P chains usually tend to also have like inferior infrastructure with is issues such as a nonfunctional RPC like my favorite one like when we are doing lb.com like having issues with RPC of some random L2 is like a standard day for us uh lack of updates of course right and eventual disappearance maybe in like couple of years or even even pter so how how can we like you know manage and mitigate these problems so maybe quick note could uh share the view on that or black Scout so having I think having having a good uh infrastructure provider or having a good RPC is only beneficial for the end product end chain because at the end of the day it just improves the user experience of that chain for example you can build a very high quality very high and very fast car but if you use uh if you use very low quality fuel in that the car will have some problems it may break down the engine will have some problem the engine will wear down very fast Etc Etc so the user or the driver who is driving the car they will blame the car but not the fuel right so again going back to the user experience point of view so just having the just having high quality fast reliable rpcs or infrastructure for your chain for your protocol only helps to improve the user experience further so so that the users can actually see the full potential of your chain or your protocol so I think it goes back to the user experience or providing a high quality user experience to your user okay so like I mean like somebody needs to take the accountability right for for this stuff because when like right now I think uh one of I think Lena was down actually like couple of days ago am I am I right or am I like uh missing something I think one of the like bigger l2s were down actually so like how how does it look maybe from like you know from the L2 perspective when when RPC is down or like infrastructure there is an infrastructure failure what do you guys like usually try to do how do you want to mitigate these problems for users do you want which problem I I can't do like for example when the RPC is down right like or like users like can't use your chain for any reason I'm just using Linea as an example right like so what do you think guys that we should actually do like there should be like maybe an announcement or like some website like lb.com to actually not maybe use this particular chain for a bit or like for example there was this problem with IO I believe that there this is this is like a dexel too so basically people got liquidated because they couldn't access the network for some time because they had like some open positions right so how can we mitigate this particular problem in your opinion if there is any solution yeah I think also you need to come also like from from the community right I think also as as mentioned like this is a path to decentralization so obviously we all want to like decentralize sequencers right and uh I think Al is is like a big part of the road map but in the same time we want to also Safeguard uh users and uh also like it's a mix thing right but I think also having like you know companies like much more agnostic like you know layer 2 bit like there there are much more out there comparing agnostically Layer Two is educating much uh more like users about like specific uh specific not just technical things but but also like how things are really are right okay so like do you guys believe that uh having like this uh quote unquote one ,000 chains is primarily due to the low costs of deployment uh while the main like economic Focus let's say will actually stay on like only a couple of them like we are seeing right now with let's say arbitrum base and blast like top top three projects right now yeah I think so okay first of course we have more of them because it's cheaper and it's easier easier to run them um I think there's a couple of things here I honestly don't think that the world's economy is going to be across thousands and thousands of chain again completely completely personal opinion the reason why is if we don't fix the interoperability layer which is such an overloaded term from the centrally sequencers to Bridges to message passing Etc um the user experience will never be there like it it won't make any sense for us to do it that way uh I think that we're right now in web 3's history for the first time ever at a point where your chain can be not where the main focus isn't the economy itself what do you mean by this before spinning up a chain would take dozens of Engineers so M you would basically have to raise tens of millions of dollars to raise a chain so suddenly you need to get the money back for your investors be an i VCS or whatever so you will build something that something is defas suddenly you're an economic layer and this is how you got the arbitrum optimism polygons Etc right now for the first time you can have a video game have an L3 or an L2 doesn't matter that it's only using the blockchain as a database with certain properties which is like you can verify it it doesn't have to have any value at all and it will work and I think that's what's powerful with this becoming cheap um the thing I mentioned before we talked the thing that I'm hope will happen a bubble that will probably burst extremely quickly for example ephemeral chains so the idea behind Emeral chains is to spin up a chain without the idea of it living forever so if we think about it all of the l2s and l3s that we're interacting right now with we interact them with the idea that they will be there after we die which probably isn't the case with 90% of them um here an Emeral chain uh the example I use let's say the five of us are going on a trip splitwise is an app where we can like track who paid for what imagine spinning up an ephemeral chain where we're settling everything over there we're paying all of the stuff we're bridging by a csap or whichever other thing the actual money there and then at the end we spin up the chain and the last exit to the L2 underlying L2 is the money being moved around to whoever whoever deserves their their part of the money so yes definitely the current count is literally influenced by only it being cheap but the reason why I think we will have much more than a thousand chains it because now it finally makes sense to make a chain where you will never have a defi project where you will never have an NFD Marketplace well you will will never have anything that we've seen so far but something completely new yeah okay like and counterarguments yeah that and there's also um another view of my mind personal is that it is a new way of getting rich fast kind of because earlier as bookan mentioned during defy summer it was meme coins now it's chains because there are tools available where you don't have to do a lot of R&D and research yourself you can just spin up a new CH very quickly it's cheap as well plus people are earning a lot with sequencer fees people are earning lot with their native tokens because what it does is if the if there is a native token of a chain it automatically builds trust with people that okay this is not a meme coin but a native token so doing aird drops with that token and then eventually increasing the tvl for that token I think it's a good way to earn money so that's why a lot of uh these chains are doing that which do not have u a lot of projects on them because you will see there are so many these uh new chain coming up they will just have their own products developed by their own team on on them for a very long period of time and if they start getting TR traction then other products start coming in but uh for some of them it does that stage does not come and uh they take Exit with uh uh token token earnings and then they keep earning via the sequencer fees for whoever are using them for example air drop farmers etc etc sequencer fees are a lot people earn a lot with them you said you have a counterargument I think uh I mean like for me basically uh right now like I'm just like asking the people around the conference right working here and there and basically asking them about which rollups that they are using right and most of them are saying that they are using yeah I'm using couple of rollups but I'm using only the ones that arbitrum optimism so on so on so like the ones that basically they like the ogs let's say like let put it like that because they you know they had like early airdrops they like got a lot of users right they have like this giant market share that is over I think right now if you like count top four op projects and arbitrum there this like 80% of the market something like that right so like it's basic they are dominating everywhere right so I'm just like kind of worried that we might not see actually any bigger player uh coming from the ground like in the couple of years but I think we can call the audience for example uh who here uses defi if you can raise your hand okay and then who doesn't use defi at all but still transacts on chain please raise your hand okay so it's like 3% of the audience so I think that's the following the money part what he what heill is mentioning with the sequencers which is the incentive for the chain to do it I think it's also for other people why they do it I think that we're basically replaying one to one I know this is an unpopular opinion but we're replaying the cloud book that happened in web 2 because it was like okay you need to put the server in Iraq and you can do it but it's like millions and millions of dollars okay suddenly we have Google cloud Google cloud and AWS and then nobody asked the question of hey do we think that we will have more software companies now I think we're just more aware that technology enables more companies to exist and then suddenly you democratized I hate this [ __ ] word it's so much used in web 3 but you democratize access to compute to storage to networking and then suddenly software as a service started being a thing so software as a service literally wouldn't exist if everybody had to do RS in their own basement so that's why I think that we are always going back to the to the things like we are trusting the developers and the people behind that are not just ogs but they really understand what they're doing I think like this rollups as a service also like they're fully democratizing like the rollup ecosystem and uh and uh it's super interesting what to see because people will follow ecosystem and and strong leader th leaders like around both infrastructure and like this kind of like ecosystem path compared like you know new rollups and then the second thing answering your question I think also people will uh especially like specific layer tws will uh be much uh be more more be much more focused on uh spe specific use cases right and you see already now now people like specific like every game developer you know they will choose a specific specific layer too because of like specific properties right same with like I don't know attestation Services say with like different use case so I think there will be much more diversity same as like you know wallet predefined users they are willing to use specific snap even like very security uh you know offici houses they just want to have some security snap you see only like they just want to debate the security s right same will happen with with Layer Two and we see that already from the Builder side and I think like users will be the the second part that will approach you will have user much more heavy on I don't know they just care about you know uh game B transaction automatic signin and it will go directly with a specific like layer TOS they're just costumized for that type of use case it's think Zora is the best currently deployed example of that which is they optimize for the number of mints which by the way most of them on Zora are free that is something that wasn't possible without them having a chain because you're competing with this for the same block space as with everyone else in this room who raised when they said I use defi so that's why I completely agree with you yeah I I don't want to bring up layer 3es right but you mean when you're looking at like Zora like everything around like warcast and farcast with like DJ and layer 3 you see that they are literally custumized the chain on frame needs actions and uh like literally like ex exactly build for the like foraster ecosystem and uh same with like nft Marketplace and same even with uh uh specific like you know kind of like mem coin deployments environment with specific ecosystem uh it's it's very interesting because the ethos is following uh the technology is following the ethos and the users that are following the ethos are automatically following the technology that's why like maybe it's not even like anymore like a like a technology game right is an ecosystem game and who are the people that you trust behind and they are offering also solid developer tooling around layer twos I think that's also one big part like you will go to stylos because you're like a C++ strong Dev and automatically you will be there right some people are coming like to I don't know they're speaking about assciation and they want to speak about I don't know verx directly because it's with Linea right and uh there are different use case and people are also attracted by the developer tooling side and I think I think this is a very self kind of like reflection I think much more Layer Two should work on a developer tooling around their Layer Two especially like on when I'm seeing like even ourselves we're going sometimes to hackaton and you know like deploying stuff on Linea is three line of code right like I think like a smarter way also to approach like uh uh Layer Two bound this is going with like the developer tooling you're trying to build around the ecosystem and that's the big value proposition to uh to to devs and Builders so you are for some time so I hope you have like a very strong answer I think there is also a lot of similarities between this rollup service providers and why a lot of different companies and uh startups might need it between what happens just in regular web2 companies and startups just once the web2 company reaches a certain limit just because of the different regulation requirements security requirements SLA and requirements uh security just different regulations they started preferring using this different selfhosted uh Service as a service uh systems on their own private clouds so instead of just using the public version that everyone else is using and I think it makes sense a lot to such companies to also start using their own rollups instead of just relying on the public infrastructure and to share the same blog space and the same kind of properties with the with the rest of the world so and especially for this nich use cases with gaming and Etc I think it makes a lot of sense just for everyone to start launching their own rollups if they don't have any kind of friction in the user experience from the user side so if users can use this rollups without even being aware that they're using a particular chain with particular rpcn point and chain ID and they don't have to configure it manually we have like a good account obstruction and so on in place and people can just smoothly migrate and move from one chain to another without uh thinking about it too much so yeah I think it's uh it's kind of very similar between how the self-hosted world of software service providers in the web to world is working and between what we seen uh in the web free space with this rer service providers how easy it is to to Launch on roll up and of you want to add something to that I think gaming already did it in web too that that's an interesting thing so the steam marketpl thing where you can uh sell a counter- strike skin it is basically that or I think Ubisoft is the most convoluted but best example of this if you I think it's called you play whatever I hate you play to yeah I hate you play as well no that's not uh that's not the point but they agree um any who uh the point is that now they have this game X defined which which is basically a shooter with all of their IPs in the single shooter and then if you played uh I don't know it is the division and then if you played Splinter Cell as well if you have certain skins in the certain other games you suddenly have special skins in X defined that's basically as you you think about it that you have like a Tom Clancy rollup for division or you have uh I don't know a far cry rollup for Far Cry and then that would be an L3 and then the L2 would be the Ubisoft rollup or if we want to go extremely far way L2 and then L3 is the Ubisoft and then l4s would be the games themselves but we already see this from if you abstract it enough away it's already happening in gaming we use gaming a lot here as an example it's just that the underlying Tech is [ __ ] and then Ubisoft killing a game is also you losing all of your skins but I think people are ready for it because they they hate it so I think we can fix it okay uh okay right so maybe uh about more technical questions right now so um let's say that you know most of the developers right now if you want to you know if you want to use a rollup you basically probably use evm because there are not like so many other virtual machines right now that have like a lot of users right now at least uh so you have platforms like arbitrum stylus or Kyo VM right by Stark net uh so do you think that the diversity and experimentation with so many options is actually beneficial uh or it could pose the problems in the future because if you you will have a look at the I think Electric Capital uh developers reviews you see that like the solidity is still a king right there are like many chains that have their own uh virtual machines so let's say I don't know uh Aztec VM right and Noir language fuel VM we upcoming fuel VM with with sway uh or or the aformentioned Cairo right from Stark net so is it actually a good thing a bad thing what do you think it's a good thing and a bad thing no uh I think what arbitrum is doing with stylist is one of the more interesting bets that's happening right now in the space and I I have a very strong opinion and I'm ready to die on a hill so we had alternative runtime since more or less blockchains existed how because you have a thing called pre-compiled so these are smart contracts that are predeployment only the chain itself could add that into the runtime with the hard work so it had to be a consensus def decision while like arbitrum Stylus is basically because they're moving that decision to the userland so to the application code as well that because suddenly you can write rust you can write C++ you can write I hope you cannot write Java but you can write Java Java to write the smart contract which should bring more developers in and why I always use it as an example for pre-compiled because they did a very good decision that in their virtual machine machine and I'm saying this is an infrastructure provider for all intents and purposes that's a smart contract it's not like some other chains are calling into another VM that's transpiling stuff and it's extremely hard to support them again talking as a tooling provider but here you can just consider it a blackbox like here's an input just give me how much gas you used and give me the output and that's it and I think that's like a very correct bet on how to do experimentation at least now okay any other uh views on that particular thing yeah I'm not a big fan of like developing uh your own virtual machine completely from scratch and disregard of the effort that has been spent on the development of the infrastructure and the tooling for the evm and for solidity and Etc so just because it's just starting from scratch but I think yeah there is a lot of value on these different experiments on different rollups with the particular and of potential future directions that evm might take and we kind of can experiment on different olops with different features add stylus here and the support of asum on arbitrum add something some PR compiles from the different rollup and experiment with a bunch of different things and then just choose the the most successful one and probably integrate it into the mainstream evm version and make it available on the most of the rollups so yeah I think that's the probably the best direction for evolving this system in the future but just if everyone going to start developing from scratch their own virtual machine implementation then we're just going to stand on the on the same spot years over years and just don't move forward okay nice right so like one additional question about uh multi right now uh of course we if you are in the rollup uh space you you love multi6 uh so basically uh right now most of the rollups actually have back doors right to like force an update or anything like that if there is like a drainage by like some bad users or something um so uh basically like we already mentioned that it's super easy to actually deploy one using rollup as a service provider or like going to optimis right and becoming a partner in like their super chain initiative and basically all of these multis are actually like shared between like couple of project right so you have this super chain multis for I think Zora optimis or something else you have this conduit multis Caldera multis anything like that that actually and actually it kind looks like they are like like the the power is like centralized in a bit in a way right like one one set of addresses control like couple of different chains so even if you like you know you want to be secure you can because you you need to use one of the 10th and all of all of those are controlled by the single entity in theory right so what do you guys think about this particular topic yeah I think it's fair to say that yes there will be a consolidation of power there is even now in the world in terms of in general things that as well like fewer fewer people hold keys to nuclear weapons etc etc so there is a consolidation of power and there is going to be that but I think we can maybe democratize that process of choosing those uh people who hold hold key to those wallets etc etc that's what happens with bigger Dows as well right where uh the security councils and so on so where delegators are chosen and voted by the da or voted by the community but then even that Community have to be voted that who will be the voters etc etc but there yeah I think that's that's the way to go but uh so there are do don't you think there are like other technical maybe solutions to to to a problem with upad because for example there are like there is like one immutable rollup on l2b that is actually like you know they they they forked Loop ring and they like gave up the the keys and they actually had to redeploy whole chain like three times already because they found out the bu and they like couldn't fix it in time right so so to me personally I think that we are not at that point where everything can be automized in the industry because uh to automize everything it has to be algorithms and if some something goes wrong for example that's what happened with Tera right it's it lose it started losing Peg and algorithm was designed in a way if from what I understand that it will further decrease the value to like G gain the P Peg again and it never gained the Peg and it started going down down down and it never stopped it was all programmatic right so that's just an example but what I think that we are not at that point right now to automize automate everything there has to be some level of uh some level of uh manual touch some level of centralizations because we are not that uh we are not at that stage right now even with sequences people talk about decentralized sequences but we haven't really Sol Sol the sequencer as a sequencer as a tech sequencer as a validator or sequencer as a single entity and we are talking about decentralized sequencer so that's I that's the uh that's the thing which bothers me about this industry I really like this industry I really like Tech and everything but that's the thing which which uh and and that's I think that's not just uh specific to web 3 but the entire tech industry that you didn't solve this part but uh you went on to build this part and you kept on building and building and building but this part or the paths below are still weak or still not developed enough so I think uh since we are new industry since the space is new we do have uh that uh Freedom or that leverage to change this way of working to change this uh way of developing things where we first at least not perfect because nothing is perfect but at least make something robust and and then develop the further Parts okay okay valid point I guess uh so maybe uh consensus would like to add something because you basically like connected to L so it's like easy perhaps to have a on that particular I want to agree on that also like OB obviously like the goal is to decentralize uh all sequencer and different like parts of like the layer two uh and I also like have the example uh of like obviously the allow list of snaps but uh at the end of the day uh also like you want to maintain uh you know a rigorous focus on you know defending kind of like users uh literally like everybody what what user thinks about this right so obviously it's a trade-off right now it's the same with like with with allowing do the allow list around snaps right now right now a lot we have a lot of snaps being developed and a lot of DD is obviously like on our shoulder but in the same time we're working on a fully like Open Source testation service so that all like snaps developers today can start to attesting in specific like funnel of the due diligence right I think it will happen it will happen the same with different like you know layer tws and that's I think like super exciting I think the only lesson learned here is that you know obviously the goal is to fully decentralized sequencer and specific like sub uh sub parts but also like we need to understand that right now it's so early that you know like we like if one one full protocol is getting hacked literally like all the the ecosystem is getting like uh uh kind of like uh uh bummed right and I think we need to also understand that that's why like it's I don't see like every time everybody's speaking about this layer to Wars or something like I think like it's it's more about like you know we should get together to build more developer tooling uh that are satisfying onboarding more developers because you know like you you touched on the electric Capital report there is 22,000 developers 22,000 Stark knet for example has what 1,800 like like it's so small and I think you know stuff like stylus they're super helpful to on boarding more developers and they're all like testing environments yes maybe there is some tradeoffs but is helping to get more developers aware to start building with different ecosystem and obviously like uh at the end of the day it's also like an accessibility like how your ecosystem is accessible to developers right like I saw like workshops run for some layer twos they are run by you know uh post dogs like post HDs right super difficult to get and you know like we also need to understand we want to also board new uh developers and also we want to retain strong developers in those ecosystem but we can force people to do things right people will start jumping from an ecosystem to an ecosystem and coming back obviously like solidity is the first touch point and then people will go more with more specific uh environments right and you always see that the people go to Cairo then they're coming back they're going to sway they're coming back and they're seeing like this kind of at the end is how is is accessible your ecosystem how much you can support so it's also like a like a accessibility uh uh Factor right even like look at RPGs how strong this method was around the uh supporting developers in the ecosystem right and I hope more players will follow like that okay nice so no yeah like there are like many like for the for the for those like chains that have their own languages like the issue I see right now is basically you have this huge grants programs like to like basically come to us like build your use our virtual machine it's better than evm in like some way but then we basically there are like like a lot of FRS right like people are coming there and they like want to build something and the problem is that uh yeah like that the stuff that they are like like throwing out is like super low quality and then you go to like some some like certain certain rollup and like the your user experience is like super super shitty like in a way yeah this is why also like the role of aggregating this information is uh is super important around the ecosystem because you have the responsibility to stay agnostic but also like educate people around what really matters right because if you take out old marketing and you have a very specific like you know product there are also like other angles that you can see and I think a lot of people are not uh yeah are not aware of that that's why you know like uh the job of like a layer Tobit or like different aggregator around our ecosystem is super important okay uh also we are like running out of time uh slowly but surely uh maybe we could take like some questions from the audience as well so if you any of you have any questions about the stuff that we just talked about uh we can give you a mic and you can ask them to us directly so not sure if there's anybody there are a lot of lights but after lunch everybody's sleeping if there's no questions I can I can oh I see one question right so are you hear me yeah yep thank you guys for panel it's very interesting uh obviously for ordinary users each layers each rollups is a separate blockchain so a lot of companies provide launch your own start your own rollups but they usually not provide uh basic Protocols of this raps what do you think about this anybody wants to take that one yeah why would they but yeah go go go go you sir I think it's one of the big problem and there something we need to solve so we make we need to be able to quickly launch this essential pieces of infrastructure and protocols for newly launch rollups in the same simple way we can launch the an empty rollup itself so there is no much you can do with a Neptune rollup so you need a rollup with a connected bridge deck and all the different services like infrastructure providers you need a Blog Explorer some debugger like tenderly and something like that so all of these pieces should be should have a way to connect to this newly uh launched rollups in the in in the most simple and efficient and in the best case decentralized uh way as well so we need to find a way how this newly launched rups can be integrated without um big problems into the essential pieces of infrastructure and protocols so that this can exist and the protocols themselves and the chains themselves don't have to figure out on their own how to how to deploy a certain Bridge or deck it just should come as a package deal or some sort yeah maybe this is a question to to everybody right do we have enough like developer tooling or what tooling you guys want to see more what type of tooling you want to see more yeah like any yeah any like new tooling that you see like they're necessary for like I would I'm dreaming about like for example one Explorer for all of the different l2s that I wouldn't have because like right now at my job like sometimes we need to go for like look at the test net of a specific project on the main net right you have couple of them and basically right now how it works for Block Scout I guess right you like deploying different explorers for like different chains right this is like the I need basically to have like couple of TBS open right to took care of that and it's becoming like pretty annoying from time to time uh so like I guess like having one oppus Magnum for like every single chain would be something great but just tenderly like for the past six years you paste in the transaction hash and we find now it's like across 40 evm chains or something it's going to be more chaotic but like if you're searching for cash or I think the problem that we're not solving that they whole block Scout will solve is having a holistic view of your chain stuffff across everything so and we use portfolio trackers right now so you would either go to zapper or you would use metamask portfolio or stuff like that to figure out like what's actually happening that's portfolio tracking again in the end when I play a game or do whatever is that the correct way and that's what I hope for example with snaps is also going to happen like I can install stuff into my wallet that's going to give a more holistic view okay and maybe block Scout can uh defend as well in this view like yeah I think there are definitely a lot of like centralization concerns as well if you have like the single explorer that everyone is using and it's the same there a single virtual machine that indexes everything and it is if it goes down then everything goes down so it's definitely good that you're able to launch block Scout in different like infrastructure and different clusters on different infrastructures for different chains and then uh so maybe the answer is that we should just build some user interface level on top of block Scouts that will connect all of them together on just the uxx side on the user experience side and with some sort of portfolio tracker or something like that that will allow this certain multichain capabilities I think we have a lot of portfolio trackers right now like for example debank and so on but like my main issue with those are that they are like I think they are gathering all the single piece of data about me that they possibly can like this is my I would like to have like something that you know I can use like just for like one single transaction for example right like I will see like let's say there was a trans like one chain of transactions from like rollup one through rollup two to rollup three and I would like to basically don't leave a single page to actually see the whole process right so I don't need to jump around like from the page to page to actually like know what is going on right so this is my like my personal like view right yeah on a similar note I'm super excited about uh de right this this decentralized node infrastructure because you know like democratizing also like RPC is a big part of the game especially because user require you know specific like latency and I think like one of the big space they were still like didn't really democratize or decentralize like the the full rpcs right okay uh so I hope like we answered the questions and we added some something to it as well is there any other question of the audience don't be shy you can ask anything okay we have one there on the middle Okay so I was intrigued by this idea of like ephemeral um ephemeral rollups and ephemeral layers but uh if you're going down this like rabbit hole of like okay you have l2s l2s have certain specific security guarantees that you can follow then you have l3s that are based on top of l2s and as you go down this path where do you think that these tradeoffs start to accumulate to the point where you get something that's actually worse than just a straight up centralized solution or am I just missing something here like I think it's at the point which you care now let me dive a bit deeper for this so using splitwise as an example you're with a friend group it's not like all of us who don't know each other are trying to settle some amount of money so if we all wanted to settle a certain amount of money between us I would probably use an L2 for it uh for splitwise I'm going with like three of my best friends or whatever so the trust isn't in the underlying Tech the trust is in like knowing someone for for 20 years um when it comes to yes I mean there's definitely at some point if you go high I look at layers up I know a lot of people look at them down but for me if you come to L8 you're like does this make any sense did they lose all of the guarantees that made blockchain blockchain maybe yes I mean it also comes back to the question of um you mentioned when you asked the multii question uh I think a larger problem is like Jeff Bezos while flying on a rocket and throwing a prime package down can just turn off blockchain on AWS and like we're all [ __ ] I mean that that's the current state like most of the infrastructure providers or almost everyone is using AWS in the case of us transacting on split B on L5 maybe my phone is a node so that's why I know I won't lose data so I'm only using the data availability aspect of the blockchain and that's what I care about the trust is with between me and my friends if we're doing something else maybe I only care about the cryptographical part of it and not about the data availability stuff for example use Mina protocol for something so I care something is verifiable but I don't particularly care of having the historical context of it so I I guess the question is it depends I don't think that we will go over layer five I I think Stark did the blog that they agree with they argued for like four or five layers I can remember right now like layer four is like the end game like no going further I I think that makes sense but yeah I I I hope that answers your question yeah actually we also run out of time so I hope thank you very much for being here with me I hope you learn something about el2 and rups in particular today and if you want to add like ask some ask some more questions catch us during the conference we are more than happy to to answer all of your concerns so thank you very much for having us today thank you thanks