# Ethereum roadmap 2020   EEA Meets With Ethereum Community Devcon5

- Channel: [Devcon](https://streameth.org/devcon)
- Date: 2020-10-09
- Duration: 1:47:42
- Topics: blockchain, smart contracts, distributed ledger, ethereum
- Watch: https://streameth.org/watch/yt-NwTXzZzZimE
- YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwTXzZzZimE

## Description

Visit the https://archive.devcon.org/ to gain access to the entire library of Devcon talks with the ease of filtering, playlists, personalized suggestions, decentralized access on IPFS and more.
https://archive.devcon.org/archive/watch/5/ethereum-roadmap-2020-eea-meets-with-ethereum-community

Overview: The Enterprise Ethereum Alliance (EEA) is interested in growing our relationship with the Ethereum Community and building a bridge for ongoing communication. We invite you to participate in an open forum co-hosted with the Ethereum Foundation, Ethereum Magicians, and Ethereum Cat Herders such that EEA can better collaborate to serve users of Ethereum Mainnet. The goal of the workshop is a moderated large-group discussion where everyone in the room feels they have a voice.

Speaker(s): Paul DiMarzio, Ronald Resnick
Skill level: Beginner
Track: Society and Systems
Keywords: EEA, enterprise, alliance, general

Follow us: https://twitter.com/efdevcon, https://twitter.com/ethereum
Learn more about devcon: https://www.devcon.org/
Learn more about ethereum: https://ethereum.org/ 

Devcon is the Ethereum conference for developers, researchers, thinkers, and makers. 
Devcon 5 was held in Osaka, Japan on Oct 8 - 11, 2019.
Devcon is organized and presented by the Ethereum Foundation, with the support of our sponsors. To find out more, please visit https://ethereum.foundation/

## Transcript

my name is Paul DiMarzio I am the EEA director of community and what that means is this kind of stuff all right I was hired by the EEA back in August to start opening dialogues with all the different communities that we represent you guys being one of them yes and so I started in August it means I'm a bit of an ethereal rookie but not a rookie to blockchain I spent a couple years at digital asset working on their stuff their demos smart programming language and their platform and then prior to that I was with IBM you know doing IBM stuff and now I decided that it was time to get where the action is right we're all the good developers the best developers are the etherium community so I'm really glad to be joining you guys and I hope to have a lot of dialogue with you so the reason we're having this session today is because you may have heard over the summer you know this this weird thing where the EF and the EEA have joined forces together and I is on our board and you know what what the heck does all of that mean so we're here to talk through that the truth is we don't have all the answers ourselves yet and that's why we're here with you guys because we want to hear what you have to say and how you'd like to see this thing move forward it's very important to us to get your feedback so that's what we're gonna do today and as my friend John walpert here likes to call it we're going to talk about the Magic Bus ethereum main that running business let's see how that works out so I'm really happy to be joined by all these esteemed folks sitting in the front here I'm Cole I'm joined by Ron Resnick who's my executive director there's me I just introduced myself you know Hudson from the EF Jaime from The Magicians Layne from the cat herders we've all been working together a little bit to figure out what this sessions going to be and that's been helping John's been helping Tim doesn't want to sit up front but Tim's been helping a lot back there as well I appreciate all your efforts [Laughter] yeah we will just make Tim answer all the questions so what we thought we'd want to do is yo give first give you guys some information so talk through you know I'm gonna we're gonna have introductions all my friends up here are going to say who they are what they do why they're here I'm gonna come back and talk a little bit about the EEA to give you a feel for what we're all about and why we're interested in the main net these days and how we're thinking about going about that then the community is going to give their views so we're going to hear again from the EF The Magicians and the cat herders to kind of you know show us what they're thinking about this stuff and then at least half the session is open mic right so that's what we'll you know express your concerns express your input whatever it is you have to have to say I mean you can shout out a question or a comment any time will any of us are talking but I just want to make sure you hear what we have to say first I think that's important to make sure you got all the information then you can tell it then you can call you know [ __ ] or whatever you want to do so let's start with the introductions I'm going to pass the mic over first to Ron have a mic okay hi everyone I'm really happy that we're able to do this I this is my second Def Con and the purpose as Paul indicators that we have this organization of enterprise folks and we have the etherium community and we really want to know what we can do bilaterally there is definitely actions that we can take in the a and have them through our members is we're a member driven organization what can we do to help facilitate the growth and the success of if they remain that and that's primary purpose is you know the a started out more in private permissioned specifications but you'll see an announcement this week we're forming a working at a group initiative to collaborate with the etherium foundation cat herders it theory magicians so we really need a better direct line of communication and that's why actually how this all started we asked the etherium foundation what can we do here and this is what they recommended so here we are so hopefully you this can give us more of a direct line and the main purpose is if you think about it is that any one entity an organization whether you decentralized or not it's really hard to be successful if you do it on your own and and so if you take a look what's going on now with hyper ledger and and Basu and everyone's still trying to figure it out so this hopefully will be the initial start of direct line communications and we're an open book so there's some folks think we're close we're not we're an open book anybody can join us and but we definitely can get inputs and so this is why we're here so thank you hey Hudson you're up hey what's up everyone I'm Hudson I am with the etherium foundation representing them today I think it's really exciting that the EEA is getting more involved in main net there's definitely some business applications things of that nature you know whenever like you think about the early internet there were you know just kind of nerds on it mostly right I'm actually not old enough to be with the early internet I was in diapers but from what I've heard the early internet didn't have things like Amazon it didn't have the Facebook it didn't have like these really massive you know infrastructure to handle all that stuff and we're in the early days go copy sir prodigy so basically we're still in that really early date we're still in that really early days and because of that we'll need all the support we can get from every single corner of the use cases of the businesses of the volunteers of the crypto anarchist everybody to get together and work on this stuff so that we can all benefit from it in the end I also think it's exciting that we have our executive director I am EA Gucci helping with the EA now that's a really cool development I believe she's on the board right yeah she's on the board now the and with that I think that's also showing that the EF is willing to partner with the likes of UNICEF parity with the Grants Program the EI we're really reaching out to everybody because through this you know level of subtraction that we're kind of pitching here we want to help everyone else and we're not in this to grow and be like a drive like the driving force in the ecosystem we want to help others be a driving force in the ecosystem that's all of y'all so and on the stream unless you don't like us and then we don't want you but if you like us and you want to support us then that's great you know what even if you don't like us we're gonna make you like us and that's my intro thanks that's so beautiful alright Jamie I just keep playing oh I'm sorry I'm in order we got kids in stretching it's a little bit of you guys messed up my order my name is Jamie Pitts and I do work at the etherion Foundation as DevOps but I also volunteer with magicians and so I I guess today you could say I'm representing the operations group in the magicians and to give you an introduction to myself I'm I was involved in the early web so I come from the orientation where like things are really messed up and it's okay if it's like looks really janky and early what was extraordinarily janky and so I look at early aetherium and and it is extraordinarily janky but actually I think there's there's so much more there than the early web in a way and so the potential is amazing and so yeah I think I've a theorem has radicalized me I'll put it that way I believe in it to a great extent I believe in the philosophies that go into it and all of us have different philosophies but I think there's common there's common philosophies and I'd have to say the technology has affected the way I look at the way a look at politics the way look at how people organize and so yeah it's really interesting how just getting involved with technology can change change you and in terms of involving corporations I'm very skeptical I think corporations are out to exploit and I think if there's a way that we can show them a different a different path otherwise we're going to destroy them we have to because they're gonna they're gonna eat us alive so I I think we can show them a different way in aetherium it's an opportunity to create a new kind of corporation and it's up to us to make that happen so that's the way I look at it Thank You Jamie all right Lane know you're up I'll stay sitting down hey guys I'm Lane I'm here representing the etherium cat herders today let me get one thing out of the way up front like as as jamie alluded to a moment to go like all of us have multiple affiliations and in fact when I walked into the room a moment ago Hudson came over to me and said Who am I representing today because I think you have you check three or four of the boxes probably and the folks up here so I think that actually speaks very powerfully as well to like the degree of collaboration that we have in this community that we all kind of overlap in our in our daily roles it's pretty amazing to be sitting up here representing the cat herders because this initiative was actually born in a room just like this exactly a year ago in Prague in a sort of accidental fashion where myself and a couple of others just made an open call for folks who wanted to contribute to a theorem in general and kind of to coordinating the upcoming maintenance network upgrades specifically for anyone who wanted to get involved and contribute to things like project management and it's sort of grown beyond our like wildest dreams since then and then it's a big you know big international group of folks who have I think added a lot of value and will continue to do so so again it's really it sends shivers down my spine to be sitting up here representing that group now a year later and actually in very similar fashion I think to the way the magicians were born a year prior to that as well so again just speaks very powerfully to the power of what the etherium community can do in an organic way when we put our minds together can I have a show of hands how many people is the first Devcon okay that's a lot of people so holy crap well welcome to Def Con welcome to the community this is a very very very special event this is my third Def Con I'm sure you guys have probably like fourth or fifth or something by now yeah so this is going to be a lot of fun so yeah welcome hey you guys John and that a few words sorry I didn't put slides up for you but guys and I'm helping I was basically with the operations of magicians and I'm getting involved a lot in a community working around in Syria I'm trying to be like the cute side of a cerium and like meeting out everything was possible and that's basically it I would say thank you John hi I'm John walpert I guess I could say I'm on team Internet I'm on team consensus I'm on Team etherium I'm one of the founders of team hyper ledger for my sins and and in general I'm on team working together and in fact for as proof of that I would like to demonstrate this is vitalik boot Erin's t-shirt from consensus 2016 or 2015 where we were announcing hyper ledger and I said you know I would love to have a mouse hyper ledger with an aetherium shirt on to make a statement that it's about all of us not just groups of bands of mostly humans and he pulled the t-shirt straight off his body and gave it to me and I went on stage with this and I've had it in a treasured spot in my house ever since and he's never washed it I have definitely washed and yeah so I think this is a tremendous year this is the year of convergence or this is about to be maybe 2020 well I was I had a hand in the years of divergence in 2015 and we've had we've been all on different explorations we needed to do that and now it's time that we we have the bandwidth we have worked out some key problems that we needed to work out on all sides and now it's time to yeah to show I mean the corporations and everybody else all groups of mostly humans need to learn how to work together better and we're going to show how to do that thanks John Tim you want to say anything or no yeah he doesn't want to talk all right so let me take about ten minutes and and tell you what the EEA is all about you know you guys if you want to turn your chairs around for this because I feel really weird talking at your backs you know you can heckle me so what's the EEA about yeah heck if I knew when I was given the offer to join I had no idea I knew it etherium was obviously and I was looking to get into this space but you know when Ron offered me this position with the EEA I wasn't sure this was the one I wanted to take so I did what I usually do I hit Google and I start looking around for research and exactly what do industry organizations do you know what's their value and is this the way I wanted to spend you know the next couple years of my career and as I was doing that I came across a really interesting I can't call it research you can't even call it a study I think was just like some some poll that was run by a travel company about two years ago where they just you know asked a random set of you know US smartphone holders what would you give up for a month rather than lose your Wi-Fi access all right so first one line I don't know how white people are so willing to give up one I mean it's my drink fast food coffee self-explanatory friends your partner a shower listen this is some pretty serious stuff you know we're talking about some technology here and people are willing to give up the best parts of life for it you know for awhile I was doing these full-body cleanses twice a year and and for two weeks I would give up you know the wine the junk food and the coffee and it was a miserable experience I felt good afterwards but man to give that stuff up for a month I don't know how I could do it right so what did this mean how did this all change because I am old enough and I know that this wasn't always the case right I built a house in 2000 and I wanted my house to be modern state-of-the-art and future proofed I wanted to have data voice and video all through the house every room in the house wherever I decided I wanted to be so you know I snuck into the house while I was being built with a buddy of mine and we ran to cat5 to rg6 cables to 20 locations in the house it was a miserable cold day in the middle of January but we got the work done you know this is my wife after she saw what I had done to the house but there was a reason for it right in 2000 Wi-Fi was not reliable you know I was doing a fair amount of travel in those days and you know whatever Wi-Fi was there was really only intended for laptops and and it was awful you know you'd go somewhere and you'd have to really open up your settings fiddle with it make it work there was no interoperability it was really quite a mess and the reason is that you know there was a great standard in place right the I Triple E the first 802 standard was a great standard and people were building products to that standard but the I Triple E is not assigned any resources to do any testing or certification or to make sure anything works with each other right so you had basically a lot of vendors coming out with products and saying you know we're I Triple E 802 compliant and of course the stuff wouldn't work right so how did we get from this you know where I'm wiring my house with a whole bunch of cables to where people are willing to give up the best parts of life for Wi-Fi and it turns out it was the formation of industry organization it was called the wire a wonderful term wireless Ethernet compatibility alliance there's one that rolls off the tongue Weka one of the first things they did was they changed it to the Wi-Fi Alliance probably the smartest move they made but what was it that they did to make the change in this scenario well the first thing they did is they understood that you know a standard is good but you need to have some market-driven specifications around that so you need to understand what's the market looking for what function is functions and features do they want in order to start buying product so they started building market driven specifications around the I Triple E standard and other standards and we'll explain what that means in a few minutes but then they combined this most importantly with certification testing right so if you were a member of the Wi-Fi Alliance you could go you could put a product through a certification suite and then look the the the the the buyers of that product would be assured that it was interoperable that it was it would be able to work nice and play nice with any other stuff out on the market it's this combination of market driven specifications and a certification testing program that makes people want to spend their money all right that's what gets you to web-scale adoption that's what gets you from you know a geeky technical standard you know just a few people know it and understand it to something that's really going to drive markets and that's what they did Wi-Fi just works and the way that I term it is technology stewardship and market stewardship have to work one on one right so you know the EF and a lot of you guys are really great at focusing the technology making the technology move forward what we're trying to do at the EEA is get that market perception in here and start to build out what's needed to make this thing web scalable now what would you give up for a month rather than lose the Ethernet all right I'm not really asking you guys because I know if I ask you I'm going to get all the same answers I got upfront maybe some even more startling one but if you were to like go out of this room go out of this hall you know and start asking people around town here or even your friends and family you know they're gonna give you a blank stale and say Ethernet no I said that on purpose they're gonna hear aetherium they're gonna go Ethernet they don't they don't know all right you know I've got the people ask me so you do you took a new job what are you doing I work I work in aetherium Oh theoria it's a blockchain thing blockchain did you ever hear a Bitcoin oh yeah yeah I know but well it's something kind of like that and that's where we are today we know people aren't going to give up anything so how do you get from where we are today where the average consumer is going to start to recognize etherium well that's why the EEA was formed we were formed by the major industry players at the time but now we're a very very diverse group that's not just big people it's little people in fact I'd say most of our membership is under a like a handful of handful of folks so we have a really great selection of folks we've got people from the private sector so the big and the small companies we've got tech producers we've got industry verticals we've got consumers as well so a lot of a lot of the banks are their consumers a lot of places that are going to use this stuff and I know there's not a lot of love for government here but you know you still they still exist you still got to coexist with them and they're informing us here we've got academics we've got civil society we were kind of the way that these groups work everybody in this organization has an equal voice so you know John's from consensus one of the bigger companies in the group if you're a small ten person shop you've got the same voices consensus in the EEA and that's something pretty significant and it really does work that way and our goal is to develop a neutral competitive incredible market view period there's three things we do to make this happen and very much it follows the same lines as the Wi-Fi Alliance and other industry alliances I didn't mean to it you know into intimate that the Wi-Fi Alliance is the only one doing this Ron here my boss has worked for what four or five others at least there's a lot of them out there and a lot of the technologies that you know and love and accept have all been pushed that way through some sort of an industry organization and we're pretty much the same so we do this by publishing open standards-based architecture and technical specifications we do not write code all right so we're not a code shop we're a specification shop the next step of the process is to build trust in that in those products built to those specifications by producing a certification process our test net is going to be up and running yet a couple of weeks like almost any day now and the certification tests and as a certification process should be ready sometime next year so we're ready to start moving to that next step and then we we do marketing all right we're not going to talk about marketing here today but you know we make sure that what's going on you know with you guys that are members what's going on in the community is is well understood by those folks that we're trying to reach so if we were to look at our architectural stack and Charles I did update it so we got the the current one you should take some comfort in that you know what we do is we adopt and extend right so a lot of what's already out there is the formation and the basis of what we're building in the EA so at the core you know we have the core technologies that were defined you know in the etherium yellow paper and everything that's come since and of course as we move forward to eath 2.0 you know this is going to you know build out and we're going to start to pull all those other technologies in as well so this stuff forms the core what we do then is we kind of fill the gaps what our enterprise is looking for what is the market asking for in order to run products on aetherium a lot of it has to do with the three P's all right privacy performance and permissioning and the stuff that sits around that so that's where a lot of the focus has been to date where it's going to go from here is really depends on the members on you know Ron and I don't dictate what goes on the members drive the agenda for this organization and then of course sitting at the top you've got the application layer I haven't seen that we've done a lot there yet but what we do at the moment in our specs is we pick and choose you know what what do you have to do what should you do what's good for you to do and that sort of thing all right so we build out an architectural stack and then we produce specifications based off that stack currently we have two there is one for the enterprise client and there's one for off chain trusted compute we release the latest versions of these specs today so they're currently at four nine oh there and 1.1 there so this is this is what we do we build specifications and then companies build products based on those specifications so for example Pantheon is a enterprise client that conforms well right word here is built off of this spec I can't say it's certified because we don't have a certification suite yet but eventually when we do build one then the current Pantheon product I'm sure will submit to to the spec all right and there's going to be some really good off chain compute demos coming up later this week in fact I really want to point a tension to this session that's happening on Wednesday what what went on is something that really impressed me five of our member organizations banded together and produced a what's called a it's a trusted token specification the demo is something like a rewards token environment and they use the client spec they use the off trust off chain tries to compute spec and they also use something that the EA is also responsible for called the token taxonomy initiative I'm not really talking much about that today because that is blockchain neutral but of course it does support aetherium tokens as well so we write specs we don't write code but what we're starting to see is a fare up uptake of our specifications in hyper ledger so hyper ledger as you know received the panthéon code is open source as project Bay sooo right and now Pegasus I believe just last week it was announced that there's a Pantheon product that's coming out based on that and even just last week the Avalon project was announced by hyper ledger which is open source code that is based off of our trusted compute spec all right so you're gonna at some point be able to find that there are products that are going to be built on open source code that are going to certify to the EEA specifications and this is this we think is really going to help drive the marketplace and produce that web scale adoption that we're all looking for right so this so this is basically what we're all about so just two points of history before I put the mic down just so you know where we were and where we are now and why we're having this meeting today and this is you know even before I joined when the EEA was started you know there was this uh you know this vision this perception that the main that was not a safe place to be it was run by a lot of partiers they you know you're talking about you know all the stuff that you would hear in the press has to do with people you know doing naughty things and nasty things on the main net and no Enterprise is really going to want to be there because they're focused on privacy and permissioning and performance and this wasn't really working for them so the members initially focused primarily on private blockchains private implementations of based off of aetherium technology and that was a good start and that's where the spec started from but now we think of the main net as the Magic Bus right this is a good place or it's becoming a good place to run business applications and this is why the EA is starting to branch out and focus on specifications that can run on the main net of course we're still going to focus on private permission chains those will never go away we still have intranets even though the internet has proven itself but we can't have both and they can both have the same sorts of specifications and they can talk to each other nice so to start to move this process forward we formed the main networking group in the EEA the interim chair is going to be virgil griffith and i think you know the interim Vice Chair is John sitting over there and you know they don't know what they're gonna do yet they just started getting together some of the things that have thought about are you know to start seeing what can we do to bring a theory them up and use the EIP process for that right that's one option another option is to focus on looking at the etherium documentation and kind of raising it to an enterprise-grade specification you know be the voice of the EEA in public is a theory 'm discussions like here but really we kind of want you guys to have a say as to how this group operates and i'm about to shut up and we can start to have that discussion but one thing i want to point your attention to is there is a working group planning meetup happening on thursday damn that's right around lunchtime but well buy your lunch take it to the DEF CON Park amphitheater and come and talk to Virgil and John and decide how you want this thing to go alright so that was a really a brief introduction to the EEA I'm really not from the government I was told that might be funny ha ha but what I do have is I have a love for programming I mean like many of you I started programming at a young age well you know for me a young ages was my late teens because there wasn't anything when I was growing up but yeah that is me in front of my Radio Shack trs-80 notice notice that cassette tape recorder which which is where I stored all my programs I only bring this up because I want you to know that I do understand you I am a developer at heart even though I don't write code anymore and definitely don't have that box anymore I spent the good part of my career you know writing Enterprise projects for IBM I did that for quite some time so so I know where you're coming from I want to be your conduit of information back and forth through the EEA all right so I've set up a couple of things you know you can email me if any of you still use email you can direct message me you can telegram me I've set up an open community on slack and one on getter as well I don't know where else you guys like to hang out if there's some other place let me know I see a lot of folks taking pictures I actually have put all of these slides on a shared Google Drive and we'll get the will start to you know talk about we're there as well so you don't have to you know and I guess it's going to be on video too but yeah that's it for me so I hope that was helpful what I want to do now is let each of the communities come back up and just say if you know a few parting words show a few slides and then we're gonna go open mic so Hudson you're gonna be up first all right it's a great presentation there was a lot of points I really liked about that there were some that confused me and I think is gonna confuse the rest of you as we're just starting this process so I'm gonna go through some of the interesting stuff first some of the stuff that might kind of confuse you at one point they said the EEA right specs but they don't write code right it was something like that well I think when you said that on the call with me a few weeks ago that was kind of like I think I said because I do the core developer meetings every two weeks so I get involved with doing aetherium 1.0 main ed updates the organizer for aetherium 2.0 is Danny Ryan so basically I said that's that might not work very well because a lot of people who write e ip's they're expected to build test cases they're expected to come together and help with the code on their client or on someone else's client those are the ways the IPS get in quickest but that doesn't mean it can't change that means that that's how it is right now and as we grow there is going to be a need for some of this testing and certification and things like that it's gonna take some time there's definitely distrust with the EEA right now some of their earlier efforts were focused on and still I guess today are focused on private blockchains and a lot of people said those are useless a lot of Chordettes said those are useless he probably said those are you know yeah you built what did he say it's useless John so basically what I said it first and this might be the case today from some just brief talking is they're gonna [ __ ] hate you that's exactly what I said the core developers are gonna [ __ ] hate you because you're like we want to build these specs and then you all are gonna build it because you said companies build this stuff because that's how it's been traditionally well and aetherium world companies don't build this except for maybe basu which they're doing a great job by the way it's volunteers it's people who are completely anonymous that aren't gonna sign in das that aren't gonna sign these like copyright agreements it's people who come in who are working who are donated by people like the etherium foundation consensus protocol lapse all kinds of people like that it's such a mix and it's such so many different differing views that coming together for something like this is gonna be a real challenge and I think the EEA understands that which is really promising to me because a lot of people don't get it and I just feel like you guys actually get it so that's that's kind of a short of the point of view to go into more detail how this EIP process works if you were in the last session you got like a deep dive into it I'm sure but VIPs are protocol it's you know there's different kinds of VIPs but the ones were kind of referring to today are quarry IPS so you go in and you say I want to do something with ZK snarks on aetherium and right now it's really expensive because there's like this thing called op codes that need to be changed or added or adjusted and so you go in and you write any IP and you say for the purpose of doing ZK snarks on aetherium I want this to happen here's a sample code snippet and here's some testing cases and then they go to the core devs and they say alright this is something the community wants there's maybe multiple stakeholders we think it's important so we're gonna build it or if you want to build it that'll get it in quicker generally so we've worked with the Z cash Foundation and with the Z cash community before to get ZK snarks on it areum years ago early on and we worked with them recently to get another opcode in or a few op codes that do a similar I say opcode I meant pre-compile sorry someone's gonna really mad at me for like messing up these terms pre compiles in the system so that we can do like more efficient ZK snarks so they had some developers develop a spec they have some developers write code and it got in and one of the hard Forks they there's an upcoming hard Fork Constantinople I hope I get that confused because we've named so many but Constantinople is coming up and as simple crap yes Thank You Constance couples happen its sample oh my gosh I need to be better at this yes yes Istanbul was once available so basically when that's coming up we're gonna include more updates right now there's a few processes from a core developer perspective that are broken the EIP system needs to be updated it's very confusing if you've ever written an EIP i think that's something that the EEA can jump into and has experience in writing these kind of you know perspectives and these kind of repositories of people's specifications there's also just the core dev process that and the hard fork process that we're fixing right now normally we have it actually if you want to attend my talk on the mainstage tomorrow at 10:00 I'm gonna be talking more about this but I'm actually right after Vitalik so that's not nerve-wracking at all anyways going forward we're gonna change from a hard fork timing model where we go in and we set up a time and we say we're doing a hard fork on this date and then we go in and we try to fit as many in as we can and we rushed and we're figuring out how to fit these II IPS and we're not coding in time and the test cases aren't built to an EIP centric model where we knew hard Forks as a IPS are done and if they have to happen to be bundled together that's great if they aren't bundled together then they go to the next heart fork so they're gonna happen more frequently the etherium cat herders are going to be doing better about reaching out to minors exchanges and major corporations and infrastructure projects like in fira to make sure they're ready to upgrade because it's no one's no it's no one's job to tell these companies and exchanges what to do but that's where the cat herders come in so I think it's really important that we have groups like that yep we got we got a few cat herders in the audience actually like yeah and I'm a co-founder of the cat herders along with Lane and offeree and I'm missing someone Piper Miriam Piper here no it's okay he's in our hearts so basically to wrap this up I see a lot of good things that could happen with this collaboration between the EEA but there are some wounds that are gonna have to heal not that anyone ever got into a fight but like people are skeptical like why would we help things were trying to destroy Jaime kind of alluded to that what are we gonna do what are we gonna do in certain situations where the EEA and the businesses that are related to it are gonna panic when we get big enough that there's a child abuse now are we gonna whitelist things is there gonna be clients that whitelist I don't know there there's like things that were not anticipating that are gonna happen that are gonna be really big deals this is supposed to be censorship resistant this is supposed to be decentralized are we really gonna stick to our ethos I don't know so stuff like that or just remains to be seen but I have a lot of hope that we're going to have great collaborations in the future there's going to be a lot of resources probably donated and helping out I know the Basu team I hope I'm saying that right has been excellent partners with these other clients building on the main net there their client is excellent whenever we have test cases got yeah yeah seriously Dano has been on like every port of call every other call he's picking his kids up from school and he's like alright I'm picking my kids up but like if I don't talk it's because they're getting in the car and I'm just like damn that's dedication so yeah they're a great partner and I have a lot of hope for the future on all this stuff so stay tuned I think there's gonna be a lot more information as we get our channels up with the cat herders as we get more stuff out maybe we'll do a newsletter people love those right I don't know anymore so we'll be we'll do something to get the word out for sure and that's all I have to say about that and here's the world-famous Jaime Pitts right apparently slides here yeah I mean we earlier we introduced magicians I think a lot of people in the audience are here for that so I'm not going to get too deep into it and we're basically an open community of people who want to organize around technology changes and so yes we focus on a IPS and ER sees a lot of times we want to facilitate creativity and people that come together for new initiatives and and so we're really down for that and a key thing that we do key infrastructure is communications infrastructures so we have this this forum at etherium - magicians org and you can see if you go there immediately get dumped into all these conversations really specific conversations about AIPS but sometimes people will try to gather together some people of birds of a feather kind of thing and say hey we got a new initiative and so you'll see a lot of those snowball on the forum and the key is open process we don't we're not exclusive and I think everyone could call themselves a magician who is interested and learning etherium any kind of aspect of etherium because there's so many aspects to get into an individual representation is a key value for us we don't want people representing their organizations even though in this panel we're attempting to represent our organizations and institutions when we have conversations we want you to represent your expertise not the interest of your group of course your boss is going to be telling you to to represent them and that's fine and the key is rough consensus and running code and Hudson alluded to this is that it when when there's an EIP we want to see tests and we want to see prototypes that kind of thing like you'll take death and you'll implement what you're proposing and then that's accepted and you can talk about that and the rough consensus part is let's say there's several people coming to consensus that's the conversation and you reach consensus as opposed to some kind of vote the people on in the group come together and work out how to find achieve consensus on that and that's a process it's very hard to define you know we hear about voting and we think that's a very solid way to go but consensus enables you to really in a subtle way flying find a common ground and listen to each other and sometimes you have to make compromises and that's okay and so those two rough consensus and running code once very like it's kind of a hard and soft aspect of it and so I guess the opportunities here like some of the opportunities with the EEA I think the key is with the EEA community it sounds like I mean from my impression it's is there hundreds of corporations who are members of this and government institutions hundreds and every one of these I mean many of these organizations are vast like very vag organizations and so basically that organization has somebody who is designated to participate in the EEA that means we have people in corporations who are interested in aetherium we're learning about a theorem who are working with DEA that is an opportunity for us to influence what's happening at those corporations and we can influence them about the IP process community driven software development and what maenette is trying to do how its permission all these different values decentralization all these different values and things that were working on we can we can start to bring that and educate them in the corporation's about it and then start to change those corporations hopefully not getting that person fired but if they're fired they'll come and work with us it's fine educate and and we need to learn about these corporations and what the process is the key to the corporation's is their efficiency they they have mandates and their mandates are often I think very simple they they need to return have returns for the shareholders they're very focused on that and you here are some changes like they're oh yeah let's let's worry about the environment a little bit but primarily it's about shareholding shareholder value we can learn about what what's going on with that how that works how corporations work how how they're efficient we can learn from that efficiency I think in our community work we're inefficient that's the cat herders are named cat herders for a reason right and it's it's an extraordinary process to try to herd those cats we can learn to be more efficient and I think the cat herders emerging actually it's an ironic thing because the cat herders is the introduction of much more efficiency in a process that was previously inefficient so in a way we're going corporate right we don't have to adopt their culture but we can steal the way they do things their ideas their efficiencies and so I really commend the characters for doing that magicians can learn to do that too I think we're actually much more disorganized than the counters okay we're going to lay now Thank You Jamie thanks everyone for your awesome presentations before I dive into talking about the cat herders I just want to share a couple quick thoughts on how we call collaborate better I think if there's kind of one theme I'm taking away from this conversation it's about breaking down walls I think that our community is a community that we don't believe in building walls we believe that we what what unites us is much greater than the things that separate us and we can learn a lot from each other and I'm really happy as well Hudson that you touched upon things like trust I just want to share that I was very intimately involved in the core dev calls and the EIP process for about 18 months and throughout this time I heard ETA mentioned many times but had very few touch points and very few chances to kind of meet folks like Paul and Ron and understand what you guys are doing and where it comes from and definitely had and still do to be honest like a healthy degree of skepticism about you know I mean as Hudson mentioned we have this concept of like Oh permission blockchain Lee that's not really a blockchain why would we as core developers you know care about that or want to support it or contribute to it we see companies like Microsoft launching products based on aetherium open-source permissibly license software and initially we have naive thoughts like why aren't they contributing more to core development right why aren't they sort of paying for core developers to kind of you know contribute directly to the project so the polling point I'm trying to make is that it's very essential that we come together in forums such as these to have these conversations and I see a great deal of potential as as wonderful and wonderfully chaotic as like the etherium main that core development process is initiatives like the cat herders have arisen for a reason as Jamie mentioned a moment ago we can learn a great deal from folks such as you guys you gentlemen who have a lot of industry expertise have had quote-unquote real jobs at quote unquote real companies like IBM before I'm a lot less anti corporate than maybe Jamie are some people in this room having worked in the financial industry of myself in the past and yet I do have that skepticism so yeah so so again what unites us is is much greater than the stuff that divides us and I think that we all share common goals in our vision for what aetherium can be and can evolve into and I think we all recognize as well but if we don't come together and work together as a community and collaborate across the aisle so to speak we won't reach those goals so I just want to express my gratitude for for you guys for organizing this and bringing us together this is a very exciting important forum I will say a couple more words about the cat herders but did you have something you wanted to add okay cool oh there are slides you made slides didn't you no someone made slide Tim thank you Tim I haven't seen these slides yet which is my fault so we're gonna explore these together the cat herders came together in 2019 to help with project management and ethereum so yeah so so very very briefly the cat herders as I mentioned in the beginning of this panel were born in a very ad hoc fashion just before Devcon last year at Prague it was at a hackathon organized by the fantastic status organization and so what okay so here's how I'd like to describe it I've been told that the definition of innovation is when like a need meets a solution and so I'd like to think of the cat herders as as an innovation in the etherium community because there was sort of a supply side issue and a demand side issue right so the supply side issue is that there are many incredible people in the etherium community who for whatever reason don't feel super comfortable rolling up their sleeves and jumping into like like technical governance right so that could be the ethereal magicians it could be the awkward deficit process or something else but really capable fantastic people who have time and a lot of value to add so that's sort of the supply side and the demand side is as we've heard a few times today already there's a lot of wonderful chaos and inefficiency in kind of the etherium core development research and development process and in particular the number of stakeholders has grown enormously if you rewind even three four years if you look at all the recordings of the core devs calls and things like that you'll see you know they were kind of 10 12 15 people and these calls nearly everyone was either a part of the etherium foundation or consensus or piratey that's no longer the case if you look at the calls today especially like the e 2 calls there's sometimes as many as 60 or 80 people participating in these calls representing dozens of or around the world and so as the number of stakeholders has grown and the diversity of projects represented and contributing to these initiatives has grown we've realized that there's just more need for coordination and it's kind of like a Goldilocks thing like we don't want too much because that starts to feel a little corporate and that you know people kind of get turned off but but we don't want too little because that leads to chaos and we struggle to efficiently roll out you know network upgrades and things so that was kind of the supply and the demand that met in the creation of the cat herders it was a very organic thing there was a initially a group of four people which quickly grew into kind of ten or twelve people who came together at DEFCON last year in ad-hoc conversations is this the only slide there's more right so what is the cat herder what do the cat herders do as a community so we're now somewhere in the order of about 20 people so note-taking was the very first thing the cat herders did for so like I personally took notes for the Corps Deb's calls for quite some time and just realize it's not sustainable for many reasons right I I may not be able to make a call or just didn't have time sometimes so this this community of folks came together we raised some funding super proud of the fact that it was a hundred percent crowdsource community funding for that first year although recently now we I believe the cat herders have just received some grant funding from both the etherium foundation from Aragon I think those are the sources Maalik Dow as well so thank you to all of those organizations so right so we have we have cow herd is joining all the major community calls the court has calls the eath to calls etc communications is another big piece of the Mandate of the cat herders there is a medium blog communicating the progress on audits like the prog cow on it as well as the upgrade timelines for for constantinople istanbul and fundraising activities as well so the cat herders and hudson led this initiative so Thank You Hudson for all the hard work you did on this raising funding for the prompt I audit get coin grants etc and and really it's it's an open platform right so as the slide suggests you know and as Jamie said a moment ago there there's no such thing as like officially being a member or not being a member of the cat herders it's an open community that everyone is welcome to join and contribute to the things the cat herders work on are exactly those things that the community feels need to be done we have a p.m. repository of project management repository on github where anyone is free to throw issues into it and sometimes these involve like even like the etherium do org website has a DNS issue or something that ultimately will be handled by by one of you guys you know it's sort of an ethereal foundation thing but the cat herders are meant to be like the customer service desk for aetherium right so anything anyone in the community thinks needs to be done like cat herders is a good place to start cool collaboration ideas this is my last slide promote relevant EEO activities and maintenance but stakeholders from different parts of etherium and touch the mood project forward so yeah I think that's it in a nutshell right what the cat herders is really really good at is coordination as the name suggests and communication something that engineers are not always so great at on the EI side bring non blockchain enterprises into the Athiya sorry I'm reading the slides and we'll kind of analyze this together thank you I just wanted to say no to this it's not like the reason why Elaine is so confused right now about those sites it's not because we are completely disorganized but it's because we was um just ignoring our emails and calls when you put up the slide with with the seven different communication channels and the first one was email and you said it does anyone still use this I shook my head I'm kind of like I live in a post email world so I'm sorry so I agree with everything on this slide I think that there's an enormous amount that we can accomplish together I would like to shut up and listen cuz I think we have open questions coming up but just going back to this one there's a link I just want to highlight this link if you want to get involved just a quick pitch please please please everyone in this room there's an enormous amount to be done there's an enormous amount that everyone here can can add to the conversation and contribute to the characters so start in the skater channel it's open to the community and join the calls and jump in and help do all the things that need to be done thank you so just one quick shout out while you guys turn your chairs back around a lot of thanks to John and that and Tim for helping me put this together they helped me figure out you know what the agenda would be what the messaging should be got all these brilliant panelists here for me to you know to ignore my emails and stuff like that but really thanks guys great job so we have half an hour for open forum open mic make sure that you grab a mic when you talk I'm gonna sit down I'm going to disconnect so I could take some notes I've also got EEA members in the audience please answer anything if I bar they're all going up so I'm gonna shut up and sit down I make a comment on hi I'm Jeremy I have some responsibility for the EEA being a thing actually probably the most but I wanted to make a comment on the the concerns of corporate sources aetherium right and so first when we really started the ei the reference document for how the EI should work was the Dow of the IETF going way back when ii was like there were two there were three concerns we were so the EI was sort of also came into being at a def con thing in shanghai in 2016 and and there were two concerns i saw 3 one was whether private permission blockades were a good thing or a bad thing they were happening and the dominant way they were happening was taking in a open source etherion codebase and changing it and the problem was those code bases were incompatible so you couldn't reach consensus between two different private implementations of aetherium which if you have believed in a future state where you had an internet a blockchain world was a bad thing right so guarding against the bad outcome of incompatible versions of the theory right particularly if you believe that there are probably some things that are gonna sit on a block chain network that you are gonna want to be private or permissioned or what-have-you right the second thing the second element of it was our three and hyper ledger we're doing we're starting to enter the business of aetherium bashing and there wasn't really a entity other you know there were some private companies but there wasn't really a trade organization that had a point of view and a permission and a voice to to enter that conversation and have a stake at the table I and we thought that was really important to have right and then the third thing is I'm an ex-banker - yeah yeah and and and I do I do believe so on that comment I have two beliefs one is if you really want to change the world you sort of need to try and change all of it right and so if we end up decentralizing the core financial system 20% the positive externalities even if we don't achieve full decentralization the positive externalities of even decentralizing the core financial system 20 or 30% are almost innumerous right like the benefits of what you can do for open access to financial services what you can do for greater equality right so even if we can't achieve the overall goal there's a big benefit there right so if you want to change the ball you have to change all that then the second part of that being is there are businesses and companies growing up around decentralized technology and and and ethereal right and so where is the right community so for example the speed of main net increases price volatility right right the Cumberland team was here and they left that's because what happens is liquidity tries to move between the exchanges people try to move their assets you get price dislocations by the time the assets get to the exchange as the price dislocation the dissipations move they all move back and you get greater vol right that's bad for the etherion community overall right so where is the the right community forum for those type of discussions to take place I would argue it's inside of a trade organization which is why you know we at consensus working with wrong have been really trying to push in addressing the business issues of running valuable transactions on the maintenance so I just wanted to share those three points of three points of view right the the need to have if we are gonna have subnets that are private in permission the need for them to be inter interoperable and compatible right the need to have a voice that - to be the voice of a more decentralized enterprise the need to try and change all the world at the same time and the need to have a community where businesses that build their businesses running on a theory of can explain what the business impact is of some of the technical decisions and architectures hey guys so thanks of course for organizing this I'd like to make a few things on a a correct so EE was launched let's yes sure so Sam Farha I work on quorum I lead the quorum engineering team I've been engaged with the community since DEFCON 1 since DEFCON 1 and I've been working on quorum let's say for the last four years four years the engagement through EA maybe started recently but we've been working with the core engineering team at the foundation and the core authority for all of the clients in general over the last four years so it's not something we started recently EA was meant just for a way for us to organize that effort and bring it together whether it's with the community or with enterprises in general to get them to adopt aetherium the way started maybe as Jeremy was explaining that it was other companies trying to sell their own version of blockchain and that's where we saw a limitation we did in water so what we did we took a public mean aetherium client which is the go ATM client in me we make we build the tools available for it or we made tools available for it to be able to run in an enterprise environment what does that mean if you do continuous integration we give you all the tools and all the scripts and all of the code yeah that you need to be able to run it there so Hudson I think worked at USSA for a bit your SSA runs quorum and the only way they were able to run it because we customized it with some tools for them to be able to deploy it into their own data centers we made the salt available for them so they can learn how evm works and how to actually build smart contracts and how to audit and formally review those smart contracts you cannot do that an enterprise without having all of these tools available for you same thing for zero knowledge proves you cannot run it in an actual private sorry in a public network correct the gas force is too expensive maybe now with Istanbul is going to decrease but we were able to customize the gas price to be able to run the contracts in an environment where you can build a permission network and ultimately over time we see a lot of these features feeding into maintenance so now we understand that there is a demand for you to be able to do privacy better scalability we saw that actual blog Gaza's limit recently increasing and the reason that's been done we've been working on that for a long time correct in a permissioned environment you have more control so you can't decide how many transactions go in a plot and based on that those learnings feed into maintenance one question I have is kind of I'd be interested to know is how is governance how is this community communicating like do they have a core depth they have sub organizations groups that like how where's this happening like where's the forum where's the where's the phone calls I just want to second those sentiments like I think having more open active lines of communication would go a long way towards addressing some of the like skepticism that a lot of folks feel and I'm not the blame is on both sides but I don't want to put the blame specifically like on the EA side or whatever but there are there's a lot that we can learn from each other and yet I don't think we've had very active lines of communication like again from my naive core dev perspective it's like why isn't IEA joining the core dev calls I'm sure you guys have your versions of this like why aren't we joining your calls right so and and more to the point like whose job is it to coordinate that I think one of the benefits and hopefully you guys all agree there's no point in reinventing the wheel and if you believe that then we absolutely need to learn what you guys have spent on theoria maenette the community and also share what we'll share what we know is that better we'll share what we know based on again our corporate background spent 12 years in Intel doing telecom so I have some understanding about how you get interoperability so your phone works wherever you go and and so it's it's really challenging to figure out how we work so I was very happy that we have this session but this is just a launchpad for the session so I think I think some of the ways that you asked about governance it's real easy for us if we can set some follow-up sessions to share with you okay what's the best practices how is it normally done and then you can figure out what you want to use and that's partly what you brought up I mean there's best from all the worlds and I think it's not a black-and-white world so as much as we all like this decentralization the other side of it exists and I think what you're seeing is that a lot of cooperation for us to figure out how we impart the information bilaterally so I'm Charles I'm like the flunky behind the technical work who actually puts these things together so some of the answers to your questions are the phone calls happen inside EA member space it's like and that's above my pay grade so but what happens when you clarify what you just said there what so what that means in help us understand if you are a member of a EA then it looks the same to a member as all core devs and the magician's looks to anyone who wants to be there okay and and it actually works the same it's like rough consensus and running code is what drives it it's about the people who and and they're not like your corporate monsters and corporate warriors driving stuff it's use case driven it's by you know people saying look this is it is enterprises doing it it's like we have things that we want like permission networks that we don't get off main net here are a use cases here is what we're trying to achieve here is how we do the technical or here suggestions for the technical stuff let's get to consensus which as you say is is really valuable and really hard you have oh do you have a forum and do you have phone calls that are like among your members you have like yeah every members every week I turn up to a phone they get together and you can see so the visibility you get is if you have a look at the the specifications look for the editor version of the spec that that's it comes off github it's updated every week you can see exactly what's there in any given week so you can watch it developing what you can't see into is the discussion of issues the issues that are raised I think there was a mailing list that got abandoned Bob built right okay yeah so there was that for a little bit Google Groups okay you probably should have a mic for the video yeah I think I think this is appointed this is a point of debate at the board level of the EA right now right which is do you want to have a member driven organization for things like antitrust confidentiality and some of the things that big companies need how do we get the level of openness required in the technical discussion resin I think there is a I think views on this are mixed my personal view is the EEA is too closed that we need to change our IP policy a little bit and we need to open up the calls much more broadly that's my personal opinion that may or may not be the opinion of consensus but that's my personal opinion but you're describing constraint that there's a legal there's a legal requirement yeah check the IP well so here's that here's the thing what we actually do is we protect the ecosystem in in the AAA we protect the ecosystem against patent trolls right which which outside the world of aetherium doesn't do the rest of aetherium is like yeah nobody should come along and be a patent troll whereas the EA has actual legal procedures in place to screw them over and say no you can't do that it won't work we will block that behavior and and so that's some of the motivation behind why we actually have the set up we have and one quick add-on the reason why we do it is so that there's no royalty for everyone and that's so it's not because we want to encourage it we tried to do things so the corporate side who may want to try to get a royalty payment out of this we try to protect it I just wanted to add something that all members everybody who works for EF has access to a so hi everyone my name is Jodi rich I joined the EA today thank you very much fun and I'd like to introduce Cameron Belle where are you Cameron Cameron and I co-founded NFT dot NYC which is an event all about NF TS every February we also run a company called NFD cred which is trying to consumer eyes NF TS the creation and distribution and the reason we joined the EA is because we see we have an opportunity to contribute to the standards the TTI and my question for you Ron is can you tell us a little bit more about what the EA is doing with NF TS and I just want to say to Hudson about 20 years before you were in diapers I was writing code on punch cards well yes we have a winner alright so I was doing assembly code on a pdp-11 computer so and so I was telling these guys the like the two languages I learnt knew back when school is assembly and then the other one was Fortran alright I'll tell you a sad Woodstock story I had this very cute girl I was dating at college and no no no no no no I got to tell you and she invited me to go to Wittstock this is the sad part and it was raining shitty weather and I'm going nobody knew back then I was in New Jersey what the heck it was gonna be I actually didn't go and I could have so that really sucks and but you're at DEFCON which is just this is a lot better everyone's really bummed anyway so now I forgot the question is our n F cheese okay so it's a bottom line and this is this is important for you guys to know we're just like the ethereum foundation right the cat herders we are we're just the all we do is try to formalize like everyone else does the group of members who want to do something so we have a few initiatives and you're going to see an announcement very soon and Jared that was Jeremy's idea of wait about a month or two ago we have an initiative that actually there's Marly from Microsoft and he helped and you're talking about what corporate does this could have been a Microsoft initiative but Microsoft approached us and said look we need to token eyes the whole ecosystem for interoperability and we should make it neutral so everybody wants to jump in so you have a the common language like the language of music you have notes and you have rules but you can then everybody can share and participate we're doing that in the EA so the EA gets rep we're hosting this initiative and so there we invite everybody to participate so friend of tees but then we still want to push it on to the EA's main net and and figure out how we tokenize in the right way for NF tees tied to the theory and maintenance so we'll be watching about another month another initiative a token working group that's focused on the etherium maintenance so the bottom line is aetherium as you mentioned aetherium foundation members can participate we publish all our specs publicly so you don't have to be a member and to do it and and and and see everything that we're doing and you can communicate with us and that's why paul joint okay so oh I guess this is more of a comment from Tim I work on hyper nature base you which is like in the interesting position of we have both a main net client and we do all this permission network stuff so we kind of get to be on both of those calls and and the discussion earlier around like you know the EA does work on and on live initiatives that provide value but the core etherium community is kind of obscure and hard to see and I totally get that because I think people complain discectomy about core devs they're like you know we just have a session earlier people were like oh what's like the meta EEP or a I P one and and people just don't know and and and it's it's not more like people don't have a time to find out those things but one thing I think we do well on core devs that perhaps the EAA could could consider is the meetings they're kind of semi open so the meetings encore des gets shared and zoom there's no password or anything but if you kind of don't really belong there or contribute to the meeting Hudson will kick you out very politely I saw it once but letting anyone else can just join on YouTube and watch the livestream or read the transcript and I can see a kind of model like that working for the EA maybe because of big company policies you want to introduce some delay or something like that you know the specifics might be harder but where you have the members you know on the call being able to speak but everybody else is able to listen or to get a transcript or notes I think that helps a lot with transparency and it would just like trust and the community that's like there's not something shady happening in the meeting that you're not seeing yeah actually a year ago in Prague we had a controversy because we had these ad hoc meetings where some of the core devs got together and they were talking about eath 1x and that's where the term was was came from was a year ago eath 1x and there was a bunch of people in a room and we were just talking about it and then someone wrote notes and it was and then those notes got leaked and it was like whoa there were these secret meetings and so we got nervous and so coin desk and coin Telegraph and the others sometimes they've been doing a really great job lately of getting it right and we have direct connections with them but back then sometimes it was harder to get like the updates because they'd listen to the cord to have calls that immediately put something out and so we felt like pressure to have this look we had this live YouTube call people are watching us so you can't say things like yeah a theory it's not going to be around in two years because of state blow like literally state law it's gonna take it so you came and have it on an SSD like you can't say that because coin desk is gonna be like aetherium stuned so what we did was we had for one time we had Chatham House rule chap Chatham House Rules Hall that the transcript was completely there no one was attributed and the call was not recorded we tried that one time and we got enough community backlash we've never done it again so that's something where you can't even go that far you need to be completely open or else you won't get accepted in my opinion so so I wanted to look at some of the other ways that we do have a communication and why are we not on all core Dave's calls because all court Dave's is on that as Paul showed we built on top of the stack we don't want to interfere with the stack we don't want to change the stack and as it develops we want to make sure we're still compatible so we'll chop stuff out of our stuff it will change to fit with the overall a theorem stack because that's critical we also have a policy if we you know for example want a new opcode if we want a new pre-compiled that we will publish that stuff and make sure that you know and get to see it and review it and we will feed that in as a IPS before we do it so far we haven't actually gone that yeah we we've set this up and said that is how we will do anything that might come and touch you know deeper into main net that might need feedback from core devs we'll take it there and make sure we get that before we go there there are a couple of things happening where we might be doing that over the next you know six months or so so there are mechanisms which we have put in place but not used because we haven't had a use case for them yet there's been nothing to say beyond look he's a speck here's what we're doing just to reimburse us a couple of the things Hudson said you know that this question of openness and transparency has been a contentious topic in the core deaf community for it since I joined so a couple years ago and we've landed in a place which i think is a very good place which is as Hudson said kind of complete openness and complete transparency if there's one value that I think the the participants and contributors in this process share it is the value of openness and transparency and I think that's a cultural difference between this community and kind of the more corporate side of the world and so like again having worked for a corporation before like I understand that there are sometimes legal reasons or other reasons why not everything can be totally open and participatory to everyone but I do think that we need to do a much better job of communicating what those reasons are and I would like just again representing myself and no one else I would like to see like way more openness and transparency on the part of EI and other folks because I think that would again go a long way towards removing some of the skepticism that we feel all right so my name is Michael and I I do a lot of consulting and block team but I was president of the block chain Club at UT Dallas and a UT Dallas we've had a lot of blotching stuff recently there's like professors are starting do more research the University starting to recognize it is this is something want to train students for we we're currently under a lot of pressure to focus on the right things we're like I've tried to make it clear like I think aetherium is where we should be focusing whether it's permissioned or public etherium and in the local the local corporations you have in Dallas right now are like IBM and had their a hash graph so so we're currently in a situation where we're trying to educate university faculty on like this is where you should be focusing your efforts so as well as trying to tell students this is also where you should be trying to like at least first start learning about blockchain before maybe you pick your stack of choice so my question is what kind of educational resources or order what are ways to reach out where we can say hey here's a here's where you should look and see how you can start maybe contribute to your community it's in the EEA or in the etherium foundation all I wanted to say was you TD is like University of Texas Dallas they're one of the leaders in education blockchain stuff I visited it's excellent secondly as far as educational resources go that is a big gap we have I feel like the EF needs to do a better job of that we have documentation efforts that are getting spun up a little bit but I do want to hear other perspectives and maybe the EEA if there's there's things that are in the works for that so yeah it's a great question yeah I'm reminded that in 1997 I was part of two thousand people at the company I worked for that we're getting behind Java this radical new technology that we were working on though and it was beautiful it was open source well kind of open source and well we all got involved in somebody else's thing which was kind of openness before open source and part of the thing I was involved with was getting the educational community involved in in Java what was interesting was where those 2,000 people had no organ there was no organization at my company called the Java organization at the time there were 2,000 people that were self-organizing when I think of corporations I've spent half of my career starting stuff and the other half working in large groups of mostly humans that we call corporations and to me from my perspective they're really not a lot different you've got people that need to work together and they need to work under some kind of operating principle and that gets ossified over time and we call that a corporation you know uber was the radical and now they're the bad guys right I guess we're always bad guys but that's so so the point is that it it's it there's lots of educational resources but the most important educational resources the resource is the one that shows the front door to people with initiative to say I'm gonna I see a spot with our two thousand people with Java we knew that we needed to make it work for I'll call it serious business I mean it's not you know Enterprise is a terrible word really I almost I'm glad that it's EEA and not Enterprise aetherium Alliance anymore you know it's kinda like KFC because if you're a four person startup that's working in in that has its handling grandma's pension you have the same problems as any Enterprise does if you're dealing with PII or HIPPA you have the same problems dealing with those things and now doing it with them the main net as the center point as the met is the bus that's that's gonna require a lot of serious work by people in corporations who understand that not because they're part of that corporation but because they're a person that understands how to do that kind of work so we got to find this the front door and show it really clearly and say this is you you want to set something up this is how you set it up just sorry I just need to talk about the academic we have a we we get approached by universities schools all the time so we have an academic partnership agreement and that will engage with the universities but I can share with you what I usually look at or what we look at is are they're doing true researcher that really have something to contribute and then we can actually give them and so you know that already happens rice we have we have University pan USC and we'll even hold events at the schools so if you haven't you're from all over the world if you have a university that's why I'm bringing this up that is doing research the professors and then folks working on stuff they can approach us and join me I actually have complete visibility into everything that we do and we'll look at some of the ideas you have I think if we had a way where folks can see what we do we are completely transparent and maybe there's a way I don't know the best way but we we're open to talking about how we could do that when one thing I one theme I keep seeing here is that I believe that that the EEA like a big component of the EEA it has to do with the legalities because your this it's this notion about protecting from patent trolls but also I think in order to engage with corporations in order to engage with the corporate process you have to comply it's sort of conform to the legal frameworks that make the corporation possible we say corporations are people corporations corporation is a person it is it is a person in the eyes of the law and it has this incredible huge amount of legal code protecting it and it's incorporated into the government's incorporate it has relationships with other corporations and all of it is legal and the EEA is a way to enable them to collectively work together on on technology and not kill each other because they want to kill like that's the way I see the corporation it's out to get profit and will do anything for that so they have all this legal framework to control to control and coordinate their behavior and so when when you like for example you're working with the etherion foundation I don't know if most of the people work at the theorem foundation know this but the members the people who are contractors that the theorem foundation have an etherium Foundation email address can now are now covered in this legal framework and so they can have access to this information to these communications that lead to the the output that is public anyone can get that right what I'm interested in is this NFT the NFT group that I was talking to you about earlier how many members is your group and how did you become a member can community organizations join and cover their people with this legal protection I guess you'd call it and then they can get access to this stuff because I call this the secret EIP like to me behind the legal veil of this of the the shielding is I called secret e IPS you guys have access to the secret aps how did you how did you do it like how how is your could you tell us I think you mean how many people are a member of an ft NYC Communications yeah you better have to bounce one us helen-alice want to cushion which is last year we had 120 speaker applications for a nifty NYC so a lot of the influences came to us and this year we've only had speaker applications open for two weeks and we've already had 60 so we're getting a lot of the leaders and developers in the space coming to us because they want to be part of the event in February yeah just a quick answer any any entity whether its incorporate anyone anyone anyone can join but if it's like your organization the the management if as long as it's the email address it's just like if they're in foundation because that means they can form like as you mentioned and so so that's how we do it but if all the 200 member companies they would they would have to look at joining the EA but his organization did he have a pay did they pay if we do it depends you had to pay something but if we so you pale it pay up the money and you it's like face it's like really Facebook that you pay for you have the email address and now you're now you can get access to the secret e IP well yeah so it's I don't know what secret e appease but maybe they're there hiding it from me can I make myself III um foundation email and join you guys absolutely if you can because then you're represented by the third foundation just just just circling back to the question like I this is also interesting and important I just think like education is something we can do so so so much better it's like arguably the most important thing we should be doing and I want to propose that this is like a low-hanging fruit obvious place where we can collaborate because like it's in everyone's interest that like people you know like students who want to like roll up their sleeves and learn about how to contribute to a dream and build on it can do that and access those resources like I've spent hours writing curriculums and giving lectures at various universities including my alma mater it's like in a permissionless fashion so like let's collaborate on this just a comment here sorry so there is no secret deities correct if there is an AI be the AVM the current implementation of what the enterprise theorem clients use there based on the main net clients and the theorem EVM there is the same via and if there's any modification to it would be through the public implementation it wouldn't be through like a custom AIP or secret EIP the main thing of EA I think you explained the earlier very well which is basically a way for all of these enterprises to work together but as soon as it's going to modify or enhance or update if they're in public that's when it goes through the public key idea I had a kind of a comment so is IB am a member of the EEA oh thank god I was about to go into yeah good there were some strongly worded discussions around we had this challenge when we do I mean Marly might want to talk about how to make that token taxonomy initiative open across industry but not have but have membership in the EA mean that you're endorsing it meaning that you're part of the Ethier's yeah and that's the thing cuz like there's so many there's hundreds of organizations and if one of them's a bad apple or multiple of them's about Apple then what happens like what what happens with them figuring out Oh a theory and main that's not for me or what happens with their influence because there's a lot of fear about corporate takeover amongst Americans and out of community so like what would be done in that situation or how is that being prevented right so so we have a corporate structure that like binds them to behave in certain ways as guaranteed so there's a membership agreement and it's like they would and they have to sign they can't come in and if one company was doing something that was a bad actor there's we it would go to the board but if we could show evidence of it so for example we've had some we had one member who it was an ICO and they were not they were the shade a shady member so we went ahead we took it to the board and we kicked them out because we don't want this on entities to be in the org so there that's some of the benefits you have with through an association in industry or sure audience questions please does the etherium Foundation or the EAA have American tax status as a nonprofit organization as far as the etherium foundation goes we do not have an American entity we have a Swiss Senate II okay it's very complicated but we basically have a Swiss entity a German entity and Singapore entity yeah is a 501 C 6 or a non-profit right so you you actually do you as a trade organization you have a common purpose and then you can't self deal no we can't we get asked by even folks joining can we do have any affiliates or political and we have to sign off that we cannot and we don't yeah so no we're safe okay and do you do you have an educational component as part of that trade organization I mean usually usually there's one of the things the IRS looks at is are you doing enough from an education standpoint as a trade organization to achieve your common mission this is important for the crypto anarchists because one of the release valves you have just like you can fork an open-source project is you can challenge under US tax law and go to the IRS and call them out for bad behavior if you think they're not achieving their intended goals yeah we're not in the US I feel like we're safe but I am NOT a lawyer oh yeah you actually so I think we're a little past time so you might be the last question is that accurate are we a little oh it's okay to keep it going right I'm not familiar with this perform at 12 so we can go okay now that he knows that I am a lawyer he only wants to have one question left my question is so since you're having a paid membership how is the structure looking like it's easy that each member gets a voting right so it's one member won't go or do you have a pondering system or how is the governance looking like governance as equal opportunities you can get whether you pay our least expensive membership is $3,000 we can put it on payments because we want the smaller companies to participate or members could be so one cut one membership one vote regardless of the size of the company so everyone gets an equal say when we look at the pages of tech group on our website the ID is the first item the ID the centralized identity is the first item on it this is also our interest interest related topic so I have some questions on the ID so from e EA a side in enterprise proxy and scenario what is a benefit the ID can provide can I can I explain my question clearly yes please so my first question is what the ID can provide what benefit can the ID system provide in advice brockton scenario and what is the D ID the ID standardpen I think I can answer some of that do you want me to do you have more or do you it was that your question so so there are a couple interesting pieces into in your question one is what is what is from the EEA or from a business perspective what is identity all about you know how is that going to go forward and gosh I sure wish it would go forward faster that's all I'd like but the the important thing is that I was sitting next to by chance the the secretary of state for the state of Delaware a few years ago at a dinner and I leaned over and I asked him I said how many companies are registered in who are controlled by say one person but you don't know and he said I don't know but it's a lot so there's a you know there's an individual self sovereign identity question and then there's how do I know that the company I'm dealing with on a blockchain and an open especially main that how do I know that that's not all that's not only the bona fide company but it's the only bona fide company and that I'm not accidentally dealing with some other company or some other entity this is a deep problem and it's one that I think the EA is equipped to deal with as identity amateurs identity has not matured along any lines as fast as I sure would like to see and I see some friends in the audience would agree but there are a lot of people diligently working on it and I think that corporate identity and individual identity have a relationship that are is good it could be radical how we how we how we approach that if we do it right and and I think we have to we'll have a lot of work to do on that so I identify as probably the most complicated challenge because it's subjective as well as objective and if you look at what companies want and then for and others who are involved in social impact there are apples and oranges it's very challenging our view what I'm seeing is there there's enough organizations out there focused on identity di F I was at the ID 2020 event so I think that the only way anyone organization is going to to drive identity isn't going to happen and so I think our our objective is to really track what goes on and then come up with a way hopefully in the future I at the same way we're looking at tokens which we believe this is where we're focused on we're doing a good job on unifying the language of tokens I think the identity signs is going to be far more challenging so we don't really know yet so to answer your question it's up to what our members would like to see us do so so I want to try and distill John's answer the use of identifiers in enterprise blockchains is because you want to know who else is on the chain right we we need to have ways of saying I've set up a consortium I want to know what these consortiums members are it's tied up with permissioning in terms of the what is the standards path for decentralized identifiers dan Burnett who's sitting over there chairs w3 C's distributed I did decentralized identify as working group which is a standards path for building a proper infrastructure to do them so he's probably a good person to ask yeah so I'm happy to talk about that I didn't know what decentralized identity meant for the EEA I would like to understand that actually but the w3c has recently formed decentralized identifiers working group and that is that is a technology piece which can be used for a variety of of purposes one of which could be building an identity system but it was very very very very very specifically created as an identifier only so that it can be used in systems where you do not have to define identity and I'm happy to talk with anyone who would like to understand what some of those alternatives might be any other questions from the audience cuz come over here ok great hello everybody my name is Jose I feel part of the team community since 2016 and I wanted to I wanted to ask you if you are thinking about some kind of credential that maybe people from the community can have in order to do yeah you do not just feel part of the Tyrian community but actually be part of the community maybe and NFT or something I read that in the DEF CON they will give a 9 ft of an attendance but maybe for the people that couldn't come that they can also be like a certified didn't community person that can maybe represent time directly or please nobody can listen to just if you will hold a mic please hold it tight to your mouth so people can hear you so just for everyone's benefit does someone have the Pope sticker the POA P sticker I see some people like snot - you're here can you stand up and model it this the sticker you have right here P oh the Pope sticker yeah so so this is a sticker that everyone should have gotten a check in if you didn't like go there and ask for it and it's actually attached to an NF t token this is maybe what you were referring to and there's a couple of folks who developed this Pope protocol Pope stands for proof of attendance protocol and I've been handing them out at etherium events around the world for the past couple of years so it's really cool if you have wallets software you can sort of collect these tokens - the second piece of your question my feeling personally is no we don't want credentials because we want this to be an open community that like actually the way you began your question you said if I if I heard you correctly you said I feel that I've been a member of the etherium community since 2016 is that that's sort of what you said right that's how it should be from my perspective you shouldn't need a credential or or or a badge or something to prove that you're part of this community it should be a community that anybody who feels a strong affiliation with or an affinity with and wants to assert the membership kind of stand up and say I'm an etherion I'm a member of the community that's that's my feeling I feel like you may have a thought on this yeah it's interesting because I want to preserve privacy so there can I would say that there should be people who can generate an identity if they want to but I think identity is really important I think it's I think it's a key otherwise it's gonna be monopolized an identity is on its way to being monopolized and I think the EEA actually has a big opportunity here to coordinate with all the corporations who have users who have people that can be identified for very good reasons and then to create this open standard the idea is a great open standard and what you're describing D ID is actually a really good way way to go and I what implementations on aetherium are there for did I don't know I believe you Joe music Hut okay smart contract-based accounts VIP I don't remember the number I think Fabien foolish teller was the author of it seven five seven 725 725 so look into e IP 725 as well my identity is is is a thing for the age of convergence it was not something that the age of divergence was gonna work Jim you got one I say because I come from Columbia and we have made several meetups there but we always say that we feel part of the community but maybe if there were some kind of Prudential maybe we could gather more people because they can see some kind of legitimacy behind it and he just not people that feel community and want to thank you Jim's and co-founder of Collider which is active member of EA the Technical Working Group I'd like to address the question about the IDs and corporate identities so I think there's there's the ideas and technology came out I got three years ago the first time I heard of that term was when Chris cam remembers his last name was working with 2020 the UN project where you can trust any centralized identity to be the the only source of truth for your personal identity that's not going to work in many of world's situations so that's where the di de idea came out of that you you the only way to preserve your identity is to make it not a thing that a single organization holds but I think in the corporate world it's quite different because corporate identities as a legal thing does not exist unless it's been what's the right word stamped by government right I'm not a lawyer so but I think it's generally the case that you have to be recognized under certain legal system which means if you want to find out who is responsibility whose responsibility of certain corporate actions lice you need a go to registry and find out right which means by nature this is a centralized thing so with Clara what we're taking is a a practical approach where what are the problems we can solve today the enterprises that are joining together to a consortium are facing and they need to solve it today versus the idea it is it's a very exciting idea but it takes it's gonna take some time to to actually be useful and be be realized right so today there is a very good system very robust that everybody is relying on that's PKI if you talk to any enterprise in any form of shape right you log on to Facebook or you go to Bank of America to try to log on to your banking system you are dealing with that system you're trusting that and that is what's making the world war today so why don't we take advantage of that system and solve the the identity problem today and then have an view on the future with the IDS it soon as the approach weren't taken and we're making proposals to the spec technical spec to make this be part of the the next version it's not Jim and would you would you guys say that there's a stackability opportunity here a little bit longer term than immediately today but as an individual I should have my own self sovereign identity but then when I join a company if I do that but you know of course we're gonna kill all those pretty soon but but while they're still exist or you know some group of humans I should be able to stack like like ENS could write I can say now I'm going to attach an identity on top of that and when I get fired which never will happen you know I'll snap off the top but I still have my core identity underneath that I don't lose is that is that sort of where the architecture is going to go so that you have both individual identity and yeah yes there's definitely individual identities and corporate identities so again the ID came out of the idea that individual identity should be protected in the decentralized system which i think is again quite different from the corporate side question last question I'm so actually I was just gonna respond to it to where you said so identity identity means very different things to different people and that is the problem I hate the word identity I absolutely despise it because when you say identity you know what you mean but it is I can guarantee you it's not what I mean one of the most influential papers I read was from a workshop called rebooting the web of trust on the five mental models of identity because it was just an attempt to point out there are more models than that but but it was an attempt to point out that what you mean by identity when you're talking about allowing someone on a plane is different from what you mean by identity if you're just talking about whether an individual or whether an entity making use of services online is permitted to do that okay they may be completely different in the first case you have a physical security issue and you need to know that that physical person is not getting on the plane in the second case maybe you don't need any of that and in fact maybe it's way better for no identifying information to be made available okay and the problem with the word identity is that it leads people to think there is one notion of identity and even if you say no you can have multiple identities then there's still the question of who defines what that identity is and I think there's a there's a mental mistake in that so you're right that the the decent the verifiable credentials and decentralized identify our based approach those two can work together we'll take a while to to get out there and so what people should do in the meantime there are a variety of identity based approaches today use whatever works for you I'm not going to take time right now to go into the reasons why verifiable credentials in decentralized identifies were created it's because of failures that we saw with other approaches that all try to define identity as a unified thing so obviously it's a big conversation no one knows exactly what it what it means or what it should mean and going forward we'll just have to see where things go but you know I have my own opinions like others just a pragmatic a point about that for sorry or Croats Microsoft and we were involved in co-founding the decentralized identity Foundation which is a associate member of the enterprise of theorem Alliance specifically because we can see the collaborations between those organizations the pragmatic approach is and this is I think where John was going is that if an enterprise is to do business with another enterprise on the main net it has to somehow be able to verify that that digital thing at the other end is actually that enterprise and so this methodology around DIDS and verifiable claims is actually a really good way to do that in a way that doesn't rely on the trust of a single organization and so that is in a pragmatic way something that in the short-term we actually are you know we need to look at that and it's something that's solvable today with the technology that exists so great thank you thank you everybody for attending this session [Applause] you