# Crypto Scams, keeping people safe & alpha with onchain data! | Panel | ETHDam 2024

- Channel: [CryptoCanal](https://streameth.org/cryptocanal)
- Date: 2024-10-07
- Duration: 36:22
- Watch: https://streameth.org/watch/yt-PdlzWtbdUPY
- YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdlzWtbdUPY

## Description

Join the panel “Crypto Scams, keeping people safe & alpha with onchain data!” with Remy van der Nagel from Bitvavo, Frank from Whale Alert, and Marina Khaustova from Crystal at ETHDam 2024. Moderated by: Jonathan Knegtel - data aficionado and your favourite wooden bowtie. 
https://x.com/remyvdn https://x.com/bitvavocom https://x.com/whale_alert https://x.com/CrystalPlatform https://x.com/jpknegtel https://x.com/TheGridData 

ETHDam - a conference and hackathon held in the heart of Amsterdam, Netherlands from April 12th to 14th, 2024, celebrated its second edition, gathering more than 600 participants. 

In the dynamic space of ETHDam, privacy and security took center stage, featuring groundbreaking discussions on hacks, recovery, and the revolutionary work of figures like Pertsev. Privacy is dead in crypto, people that know, know. People who don’t know, should know. 

ETHDam is powered by CryptoCanal, an education and events platform growing in Amsterdam, spreading its roots to Rotterdam and Zürich.
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## Transcript

[Music] I'm very much looking forward to it uh because the reality is is anyone can deploy whatever they want on a permissionless uh network but I very much question whether they should or not because you don't know actually who's managing this stuff and I think we've been speaking a lot about privacy and security and if we move forward in into the future of this eco system we have those foundations the question is how really is it going to be used and I it's a personal belief of mine that if everyone's getting scammed then still a retail user will not want to use the technology because they're going to use their life savings so to help have this conversation and hopefully talk a little bit about like responsibility in blockchain I'd like to invite Remy up to the stage Remy uh Remy works for uh bit valvo it's of the largest exchanges um here in the Netherlands um next up I'd like to invite Frank uh also uh please don't touch any buttons on the microphone because last year it was last year last night it was chaos um Frank is uh yeah the founder one of the founders of of whale alert one of the largest Twitter accounts in crypto and um and last up but not least is Marina from Crystal [Applause] cool do you have a microphone Remy um so thanks ever so much for coming on this beautiful Sunday morning and talking about a topic that we've been trying to avoid for the last two days so um very much looking forward to this so to kick things off please could you each give a very short introduction of yourself as well as a fun fact starting with you mun all right thank you thank you so much for having me here today pleased to be here very good to start Sunday morning from such a conference um yeah my name is Marina Costo I'm COO of Crystal with Crystal for more than five years we're building a blockchain analytics platform fun fact about me I in crypto since uh before block Bitcoin was invented it's a fun story because uh I really dreamed of applying to the university which has a faculty of crypto istics so it was nothing to do with blockchain itself of course as you understand but it's funny to look at that fun fact uh many years after that I didn't get there by the fact um and actually was into marketing after that but I eventually got to crypto somehow so yeah that's funny to look at cool thank you um can you guys hear me without a microphone no no there's a live stream sorry it just speak just speak yeah well ah okay um well my name is Frank I'm uh the founder of will alert um I I I guess a lot of people know about will alert um I got into crypto in 2017 started as a Trader got almost got a heart attack decided to focus more on data collection and data distribution and analytics um and uh kind of worked out a bit um so now I'm here I'm I'm here to talk about scams we do a lot of uh onchain analytics as well we really data hungry and part of the data is also illicit activity on blockchain um which is a really interesting topic and unfortunately very sad topic as well um interesting fact about me I actually have a degree in political philosophy um somehow ended up here um no idea how but uh great to be here yes well so I'm Ry faho manager of Business Development and Partnerships and listings at at B for those of you outside of European Union we now the largest European spot exchange crypto Exchange in the world actually so that's pretty cool I joined when we were 20 people now we are 300 people so that's amazing growth to to witness I started actually as an internal uh crypto project expert which means I know a little bit about many different projects uh I would say and from there on I advised marketing or product or listings on on everything uh crypto um I was thinking of a fun fact but I could only go come up with a sad fact which is uh I recently got scammed so uh more more that sort of scammed more on that later probably somewhere in the in in the talk um and uh yeah looking forward to uh to participate in this discussion and to to bring obviously uh centralized exchange uh can be uh a customer well touch point where where the scam starts or ends unfortunately so um here to contribute cool thanks a lot uh also the morning this morning the big disclaimer is the these are the views of the panelists and the individuals not of their represented companies I think that's that's very important in this context um so to kick things off really with the first question uh really scams in crypto we know that they exist someone recently went through one what is common and and and then once you let's start with what's common and what we see and then we'll go from there yeah so I think uh one of the most common ones sorry for my voice by the way I uh some more water um some of the most common ones so are Bank help desk front where they um basically spoof they they use a phone number that looks very much like the the Bank's phone number um they contact you with some story that there's a problem with with the bank and that you now have to do XYZ to um to solve your your problem um of course it's not the real bank but when you Google the person it looks like it might be the the real bank and then typically they um they will help you with starting up a team Vier or some other software to take over your laptop and to to help you get your funds back and obviously that's not what's going to happen and the second form that's that's really common right now is is Boiler Room fraud where they pretend to be uh some kind of great investment uh uh scheme on um usually some some FX exchanges U where they say if you send X amount of money you will get uh certain percentage back um we will help you set it up it looks like a really sophisticated website and uh and and and then you have they will help you create your own wallet and uh your own wallet and you send your funds there and then you see great Returns on on the dashboard in the website which of course are completely fictional um and they ask you to keep sending more and more at some point they uh all of a sudden there's a problem again uh to unlock the funds you have to send even more and on top of all that after they are sort of finished with with the with the um return on investment they will uh tell you and and you've become aware that you might not get your money back they will tell you um we can help you recover it and then you have to pay a small price for the recovering as well he's on top of fees a gas fee on ethereum exactly um Marino or Frank anything anything to add to comment um I I think one of the most interesting things is the evolution of scams the popularity of it because when crypto started um at least when I got in uh one of the most common ones was sextor and in my opinion they seem to have completely disappeared and then came the giveaways like Elon Musk is very generous can we have a show of hands of who saw an Elon Musk crypto giveaway on Twitter yeah that's almost if you're active like on social media at all you should have seen them um and the investment scams the boiler rooms have always been there um the funny thing about them is they don't really seem to evolve that much uh um that they're they're very amateurish um the way they use blockchain it's it's it's a very rudimentary way there's no mixing going on there's no um there's no fundamental understanding of the technology I think um and it still comes down a lot to social engineering um which is uh just a lot onetoone talk with the victims stuff like that and um the the the thing is I think we're we're into a shift right now into AI fueled uh scams because you may have seen them on on YouTube appear here them as well fully AI generated videos on how to build a mfbot um and um I think we're on the how do you call that the the the a turning point in in the way not how blockchain is going to be used in scams but the way victims are going to be collected by the [Music] scammers yeah I agree with that um actually um I can see like both like presence uh the presence of both like categories right now among this camer is like the most the amateurish ones and very like you know good Professionals in the space um and I myself was also a victim of scam once but it was a T-Mobile scam when they were switching the S cards and then trying to use uh the phone address uh phone number to actually get access to the funds um but that was back in 2016 um but um yeah I think right now um I see two most critical like cohorts of scams being present and being presenting a big threat to the society uh the first one is so-called Roman scams some people call them Pig butchering I hate this word because that implies you know something not good against uh you know towards people who are being scammed um we are in a very privileged group here right we know about scams we tend not to talk to strangers you know uh on internet but think about elderly people right people who crave uh you know lonely uh they're just just they crave attention and uh the worst part is that not only they're being scammed but also um compounds actually have been created in Asia which are uh holding people forced to actually scam other people um and it's a very very big problem some of the APAC countries already reported they are having about 1% of their GDP lost to these kind of scams and that's a big big problem uh right now and um I don't see actually any solution to that in the upcoming uh year at least um and yeah this is growing in many many countries but um uh that doesn't require much you know uh besides the social engineering but uh speaking about sophisticated scammers I recently found a very interesting new trend uh showing up the scammers do understand how blockchain analytics and threat intelligence Solutions work so they try to create um fake artificial entities um running artificial um exchange or exchange of funds uh activity and then they reporting these artificial entities to the solutions like ours or maybe like yours um then these entities are they basically stop the propagation of the risk score so they're basically creating an artificial um activity that uh prevents they think that it will prevent blockchain analytic solutions for automatically identifying how the laundered funds from any criminal activity are reaching uh to the uh exchanges like bitv for example so this really requires a lot of time a lot effort to to do and the fact that we have found several of those uh makes me think that we have found many more haven't found yet and uh this actually some of kind of a trend that I see emerging um very recently and certainly we're going to see more of that in future cool thank you uh and then so building on that now we know a little bit about more about the scams in the space what do you think that uh that can be done about this now I really want to remind you that we're we're at a conference about privacy and sec security and privacy is very important I think to everyone here right one of the big things from this conference is privacy is normal um so what do you think that can be done moving forward around kind of at least reducing the impact of scams that are on on the ecosystem well given I'm speaking here for myself uh and this is my personal view uh I think there should be a uh there should be a differentiation you know between like who we are protect and from what and I think The Regulators also need to actually uh look at the you know cohorts of the users or people you know somehow exposed to dig assets and then decide which cohort of users should be protected from certain things and uh I'm actually a believer that you know people need to think for themselves they need to do their own research they need to be cautious and they know don't need to rely on Regulators um to actually prevent them them from anything and I think that's the key um solution to a question of privacy you know because if we don't expect again government to protect us from every uh everything then again we need to do our own work uh to be protected um in regards to however this this really requires a collaboration from The Regulators and from the um uh law enforcements and so on because this problem of Roman scams it's purely question of education and really people have to speak about this and I'm thankful to for example John Oliver uh Saturday night uh show was covering this problem like three weeks ago in his show um and that made made a lot of people aware of that and but it's not enough it should be done done much more about that but should we do more than an inducation that is a very good question um yeah I I'm gonna probably say something you're not gonna like that much um so it's becoming increasingly more difficult to distinguish real reality from fiction so we talked to a lot of victims we do a lot of research into how these things work and it's it's and we're not even talking about AI right now um it's extremely easy to fool people into thinking that they're dealing with something something or someone they're not dealing with and it's not reasonable anymore to or it's it's never going to be reasonable to expect from from users from from especially people who are new to blockchain I think on like scammers are the number one on boarders of of blockchain users um I think that's in my opinion uh they're very good at it and uh I think it's unre reasonable to expect people to protect themselves um I think it's um especially um I'm not going to name any names um but I know a lot of um the big exchanges have a policy of uh Senor evil uh how do you call that the they like as long as they can cover it up it's not their problem that their users are getting scammed it's as long as The Regulators are not punishing them as long as they're not responsible any for any of these things uh that are happening even though they should be able to as expert they should be able to to see more than they're actually claiming to see um my opinion is that exchanges are playing a crucial role in making it possible to um to to easily launder money but also to um give scammers access to to users so I think a lot more responsibility should be placed at the exchanges themselves there like make them pay for for the victims make them pay for uh better security for better methods so that's my opinion I don't think my opinion changes is that that different of yours for centralized institutions I'm very much in favor for actually a lot of Regulation because they act like the super Banks without rules without the rules of the banks so as soon as you leave the blockchain I think there should be a lot of uh rules and regulations and uh information providing in place um there was a competitor recently that that won a case against people that have been uh scammed obviously there is a big debate about if if if you lose your tofa or or your your email is compromised and your phone number and you and they're talking to you at what point yeah where where does the responsibility TR truly lie um I think as an exchange you should focus on at least building uh as many security tools to uh empower the users to to um make it harder for attackers to um um well to exploit you and to to T point we didn't talk that much uh about pure blockchain scams maybe um so for example you have things like uh dusting attex where they send a little bit of crypto to your to your wallet and then track it be able to track it when you when you start sending it or uh address poisoning where they hope you will think that you sent the transaction but actually uh it was uh the scammer's uh uh address um and and they hope you whenever you send funds back that you will send it back to the scammer's address and there's the wallet wallet connect scam uh basically um rebuilding depths but this time it's a malicious dep which is actually the way I got um I got scammed as well cuz I got a bit humbled playing around with the base chain and and and and trying some new some new decentralized exchange on the base chain one time you don't pay attention and and bum your wallet is drained with one one connect um so that's a humbling experience as well but so I my point is basically I think we can do more to increase usability user experience with from within wallet from within centralized infrastructure to enable or Empower you there more um when I was responding to the question I was thinking more about the final audience you know how do we make them aware that this is all happening because uh to me there is um I I can see a lot of power in exchanges building in this experience and actually no one like you sees what's going on like you are in the Forefront of that even we don't see that as much as you do and of course you working like um holding internal Investigation Unit um um holding these investigations internally again you have most of the power in your hands but how do you move that forward to your audience that's what I'm that's what I'm constantly thinking about like how do we make final retail users or um again uh May Tob users of your system more aware about all of that and being again more sophisticated in their approach it's a tough one because I'm a I'm an educated by heart so I always believe in education but at some point uh stuff gets very technical in the blockchain so it's upon us as the industry um to make it easier to understand as well um how am I going to explain adds poisoning to the average uh individual who's just an end user of of the technology of crypto um so it's a tough one I don't know I would say my first in instinct is always education and awareness um but I don't know if that's enough so I would I think we need to understand that this is a big problem uh or or just like in many diff different Industries and we just need to build yeah try to help build great tools to prevent it in the first place yeah yeah yeah yeah same here same here thank you uh these three wonderful people are here for you so now's a good time to uh check on slido and see if there are any questions that you think are interesting or ask away um and I'll come back in in a few minutes and hopefully we can have some uh I hope not any attacks or anything like that um the biggest I think this is the last big question that I have but it's the fact that we've as I mentioned been talking about privacy this entire event and the reality is is if privacy is implemented at the lowest level it has an effect on what information becomes accessible for onchain analytics companies which may have an effect of where scammers have somewhere to hide now again we want to be clear privacy is normal we will advocate for privacy but I'm interested to hear kind of how you think uh let's say if there is large scale privacy adoption across the entire ecosystem how is that going to be uh how is that going to be affected for two big things one of those is for compliance purposes onchain investigations but also for all the Traders and degenerates in the room onchain information is also a source of Alpha and so I'm interested to hear kind of what your thoughts are uh on that and where we're going and yeah whoever wants to take the lead on uh I'm going to give it to you yeah sure uh well I I can take that one um I'd say that for us it's critical to understand what's happening behind the uh activity on the CH on the blockchain of course like by building blockchain analytics solution we are relying on the most you know um core uh feature of blockchain right transparency and the fact that everything is being recorded um but uh again uh this information does does not contain any attribution to actually you know what's going on and what it's referred to then um people sometimes think that you know blockchain analytics Solutions are evil because they you know they are putting some Privacy Information available for uh the banks or for someone else it's not exactly true um because what we're interested in again to classify the type of activity that is happening and attribute it to the organizations and um work closely with those people who are running investigations on that assist them with again targeting The Source you know the root of the evil for example these scam compounds you know that exist in in Asia uh now to the question like how we can balance privacy here uh how we can actually help privacy happen and I think um my thoughts right now are going towards AI um a lot these days because um what is happening right now is that I'm looking I'm working in this space for like many years and you know I'm looking at the old chain activity and with a very high degree of probability I can look at the uh several changes inter interacting with each other when they have been interacting the nodes that have been processing these transactions and I can tell that there is a very it's it's very likely that is a drug dealer operating um and I can tell that and eventually that goes into the area where we can actually uh use AI to understand help us understand certain patterns and again this all can be happening and we can warn our customers that our patterns are suggesting that there might be something um particular happening there it might not be illegal right it might be um um a service uh OTC desk for example in uh operating there or it might be like you know just people uh paying for something together uh for some uh something absolutely legit right investment activity whatever um that is my goal that is my goal to understand again to look historically to understand what's going on and to put a tag put a label like I think it's this I think it's that because again it's not my goal as a blockchain analytic solution to put names there or even names of the organizations uh it's just a labeling stuff like creating some kind of a search engine uh across the blockchain so I think there is a lot of uh a lot of power in that uh and actually my belief is that in future organizations like bitv are going to be having their own models actually um uh which are going to be operating on the data and then identifying what's going on um and therefore making a decision whether they think this activity is like risky or not um and again that has nothing to do with the activities uh that are done by law enforcements right targeting particular criminal activities which involve uh a lot of information that is related to particular uh uh personalities but usually again they do it by themselves uh they just need um Solutions like Crystal for example to um just cluster uh and to understand what belongs where to which cluster productivity to which pattern so I think the the the answer is there um and how do we become less uh focused on uh personal data and not use too much of a personal data that can uh be used wrongly um and focus on solving the biggest problems um um yeah uh yeah I I I I'd like to um I'm looking for I know the Dutch word for it but inhak anybody got the translation you add to I'd like to add to that um so there's a there's a hyperfocus on identifying entities especially if you look at elliptic if you look at CH analysis almost their entire basis of their analytics is can we identify this and is this a bad actor it if it's not identified it's not interesting apparently or something like that and we see this with scams they cannot identify these these scam entities um and because they're not identified it's it's approved in uh in in in in a certain uh in a certain at a certain level um well maybe approved is a bit uh bit bit too harsh but um you can do a lot in blockchain analytics without knowing who's actually doing the transactions you can you can easily if you look at an address and it has tens of thousands of transactions that's probably a hot wallet it's probably an exchange is it uh part of a large cluster that that that sends to uh to one of these addresses it's probably part of the exchange if it's um one thing you need to understand this these cameras are using the same technology they're using the same wallets so identifying a malicious uh actor on uh on on on blockchain is actually much simpler than than knowing who's actually behind it and I think a lot of the regulation that's being built um like kyc identifying users is because there is a fundamental flaw uh well the the flaw is that we're focusing hyper focusing on on identifying entities and that snowballs into identifying all of the users everybody needs to be kyc everybody needs to be identifiable and I I think like 90% of the not 90% like a lot of like a signif significant portion of scams could be prevented by by not looking at who's actually doing it but can we can we do we can we can we see any malicious activity like you said I don't think AI is is is I think it's uh I think it's a new machine learning for analytics uh so I don't think AI is a is a useful tool especially because it doesn't allow for retrace ability probably that much as it should um but I I do agree with uh uh most of it you said yeah well identifying is it a vasp or not just looking by the velocity of the transactions definitely does not need anyi that's true it's cheaper to understand it without any kind of like machine learning that is that is for sure but the general yeah pattern approach yeah yeah blockchain analytics is surprisingly simple so don't be fooled by the by fancy graphs or or stuff like that it's it's it's it's pretty basic if anyone is interested in in yeah of that stuff like the people are here today to really have those conversations so Remy any uh quick words on that and I want to get to the audience questions so no just to to um well to add to that also um as you said you were attacking centralized exchanges a little bit earlier or certain centralized exchanges and I think that's um totally appropriate for certain centralized exchanges but the ones there are many out there and and I would of course include bavo in there uh that are really trying to be uh not only compliant but actively try to find it uh fight it already using to Great extent blockchain analytics software but also looking into um uh partnering with with software that can as you said identifyy addresses where tens of thousands of people are sending uh money to to um block the block to withdrawal towards that then but then you run into other questions of are you then limiting the freedom of movement of your users um but if it's to the yeah for their own Goods um but so the the the the comp or the exchang that try to be compliant are are are looking very careful at all that stuff and utilizing blockchain and analytics to uh to prevent a lot of scamming actually to their to their credit we got we've got a lot of questions so we're going to we're going to go to that thanks a lot um okay we're going to try and do quickfire so one of you answer and if someone wants to add something please do otherwise we'll move on how does scammers offramp usually is the responsibility of the off-ramp service to stop them uh it's very simple um it's it's it's wobi w it's a lot of time well it's not directly W it's it's it's it's an entity between huobi and the scammers and uh that's how you do it there are nested Services uh so basically uh businesses that are um renting the infrastructure and wallets from exchanges like huobi and then huobi says like I don't know that's our subsidiary like our partner we just give them our wallets go them ask them God knows what's happen next my answer is yes if you operate in a country with AML uh legislation it is your responsibility to stop it uh you should ask where's this money coming from where's it going where's it going uh okay I don't know why this question's come up but what are your thoughts around leverage trading on for example M MX I think that's how you say it and the fact that lots of people get liquid liquidated under their stop loss think exchanges do this on per by on purpose any thoughts on on this it's not directly on topic but people have upvoted it so well uh if by now you're not you're playing against the house right if you're trading on on on exchanges it should be pretty obvious that exchanges trade against you with the whole FDX Scandal and binance Labs does it as well I think um so expect to lose I guess so well that's uh few more stuff on chain yeah trading against you that yeah that's a very cynical take and there definitely probably exchanges out there that that do that but I would not not just throw us all in there obviously no no not probably not all of them I mean but we know that the largest ones actively traded against us so it's you can assume it's exchanges are here to make money right I mean it's uh can we have like an audience like come more effort boo all right uh the next question is um what is your take about security level of embedded wallet Solutions wallets generated on top of emails yeah what is your take about SEC the security level of embedded wallets embed wallets AKA wallets generated on top of emails so I think that's where you're not just generating a key with a seed phrase but you're maybe adding lers account abstraction things like this I think also very similar to what ton does uh associating wallet with the address uh with the with the with the account on ton well yeah cannot dive more into that I think there are a lot of opportunities for building a um um uh reputational risk score system based on that where users are actually um somehow validating you know who they're interacting with and using that as an interal like tics to identify is this a bad actor or not but that's not related to security I'm sorry any other comments or we'll move on uh no uh at Frank that's you how can Sexes uh protect scam victims that willingly send funds to a scammer without harming privacy or usability um yeah so there's [Music] um so there there this this is just topic of responsibility right so is the user responsible and what's the how much does the exchange have to do I've seen instances where people are being told by their family they're being told by by bavo actually uh dude this is a scam uh being told by their Bank this is a scam and then they just move to a different bank they move to a different exchange and they get scammed and then they're like what the [ __ ] uh nobody warned me so um so yeah I guess the best thing you can do if if you know it's a scam you just have to tell them look dude go somewhere else and inform them of it but not enable them to do it I know there's a couple exchanges the big ones that don't care um they just transfer the money anyway in at least in the case that we saw maybe maybe I didn't see a lot of cases where they didn't do it um so but yeah that's I think that's the only thing the exchanges can do and they should do they should tell them like move somewhere else take your business elsewhere yeah fair enough uh last question uh what's your view on Meme coins I'm not going to read the rest of it um but yeah very quick each comment view on Meme coins and then we're going to finish it at that this is not going to last forever definitely so it's fun to look at that especially how funds for meme coins are flowing from more like um you know traditional um crypto um investment opportunities so looking at that with interest uh definitely going to see some explosions in this space and some unhappy people um few months later so yeah I've seen these before and I think we know what to expect I think it's pure art some of them uh I I think I think it's closest to the original experience that a lot of us had I guess that people want to experience as well I mean if you're new to crypto you you kind of want to have the same ride that a lot of us had in the beginning right we knew it was [ __ ] we knew knew we knew we were getting scanned but we we we figured I can get out on time I can do that I can do that I'm going to make a lot of money and somebody else is going to hold the bag I think mem coins are that and the fact that they're being called meme coins they're not being wrapped into these white papers and not being H wrapped into like celebrity endorsements or stuff like that people who buy them they know they're going to get [ __ ] anyway I think they're I they think they're a lot of fun yeah why doesn't bit bitp have meme coins on it man oh we have a lot of meme coins so I've had to shift my uh and evolve my opinions a lot actually being involved with listings at bavo uh from my initial opinion which in and of itself became a meme I'm in it for the technology which um which is still true I hope but then for me I have to look at in the end we are sort of we are just a Marketplace uh we should create a safe space where where users can trade what they would like to trade um it's it's it's a rock pool or or scam so where do we draw the line it's been um it's been very interesting for me to uh to to figure figure that out uh if if we see the lot of demand we listed actually quite some meme coins whereas in the early days we didn't even have Doge but at some part um at some point I mean that's that's what our users want and we are uh we are there to serve our users and obviously we also uh get a great amount of revenue from them so I guess my current opinion is um it's a great opportunity for the first time ever to invest in Internet culture but but also where's the technology yeah well thanks ever so much uh for coming this morning and hope you also enjoyed it and learned something so thank you [Applause] [Music]