# Smart Contracts and Petri Dishes: Creating a Shared Technical Infrastructure Roadmap for DeSci

- Channel: [Devcon](https://streameth.org/devcon)
- Date: 2023-10-09
- Duration: 1:21:55
- Topics: blockchain, smart contracts, distributed ledger, ethereum
- Watch: https://streameth.org/watch/yt-SNkd2o7cKOU
- YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNkd2o7cKOU

## Description

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https://archive.devcon.org/archive/watch/6/smart-contracts-and-petri-dishes-creating-a-shared-technical-infrastructure-roadmap-for-descentralised-science-desci-on-ethereum/

DeSci is the combination of open science principles and decentralization. This workshop aims to unite founders and developers in the DeSci ecosystem to explore what infrastructure is needed: from reputation systems for scientific credentials, to file storage, public good funding and financialisation. Participants will actively determine pressing needs and a roadmap to functioning DeSci dapps, while also exploring the cultural complexity and UX of scientists as a user group.

Speaker(s): Paul Kohlhaas
Track: Developer Infrastructure
Keywords: Tooling,DeSci,Data

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Learn more about devcon: https://www.devcon.org/
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Devcon is the Ethereum conference for developers, researchers, thinkers, and makers. 
Devcon 6 was held in Bogotá, Colombia on Oct 11 - 14, 2022.
Devcon is organized and presented by the Ethereum Foundation, with the support of our sponsors. To find out more, please visit https://ethereum.foundation/

## Transcript

foreign [Music] welcome everyone um I think this is one of the first ever workshops at Defcon featuring a really new exciting space that has evolved over the past uh really only over the past year um called DSi and DSi is short for decentralized science and so the goal today is really um the title of the talk is my contract in Petri dishes essentially merging these two Fields together uh and then with a goal to who everyone is here today to kind of look at beginning to create a shared technical infrastructure roadmap for what is actually required to make DSi a success uh cool so we saw some people coming in uh maybe a few words about myself um hi everyone my name is Paula cohass um I'm the CEO and co-founder of a company and ecosystem protocol called molecule um and I had the amazing opportunity last year to work with a great group of people to launch one of the first desai-centric research organizations called read of that um maybe maybe just start with that like maybe a show of hands who's heard of vidad okay so almost pretty much everyone uh it was a little bit hard for me to gauge the audience of this um of the talk today uh just because you there's obviously a lot of um what developers at Defcon it's a it's a developer-centric uh conference cool maybe I can share a few words just about myself um I actually don't have a background in science but rather in economics traditionally um however science and specifically like biotech has been a huge personal hobby of mine since my teenagers uh I spent a lot of time in in online biohacking communities as a teenager um and some of you may be familiar with these there's all of these different subreddits focused on nootropics for example or biohacking and so as a teenager I spent kind of time in in these online communities that were for example um diabetics and that we're looking at alternative ways of um accessing insulin as many of you probably know incident prices in the United States have skyrocketed over the past over the past decade and so these communities were looking at ways of producing their own insulin kind of in in a garage which sounds super risky but actually often people are um our current Healthcare System really like underserved certain patient population similar cases in for example in different HIV communities that we're kind of collaborating online to develop their own open source Gene therapies uh or in other cases you have um communities of psychedelic researchers and enthusiasts that are kind of exploring hundreds of different novel psychedelic compounds so what happened in these communities someone would say hey here's an interesting chemical structure I think it could do this doesn't this in the human body has someone tested this and then someone else would say yeah I tried it it did this and this and this and then essentially people um some of you might know this as trip reports uh it's essentially a form of like very anecdotal data collection um but I found this form of like open source drug development really really fascinating and at the same time then I began looking at like the larger macroeconomic landscape of farmer and because I started asking myself well why are these people online in the first place actually in many cases engaging in very dangerous experimental behavior on with their own bodies um and it's often out of sheer necessity because um either through lack of access or because um because certain medications and Therapeutics are fundamentally overpriced um and then I went on and studied studied economics and during my time studying economics I got an interest in trading biotech stocks and so biotech stock typically trades um around kind of the success of one of the core assets that is being developed doing okay one of the core assets that are being developed and so if positive data emerges about one of these assets typically the price goes up and if negative data emerges the price goes down and So within biotech companies this data is extremely well guarded um it's typically only released like every two or three months typically only released every two or three months and when the data is released positive and negative the um the stock typically does in a 5x or it does money eight minus 80 in a day which is actually really inefficient if we think about um if we think about how markets work it's like this fundamental information asymmetry but furthermore most biology companies actually only have an incentive to share positive data so a biotech company could be generating 100 studies on a specific compound and two of them are positive uh and let's say eight of them were inconclusive and 90 90 of them were negative they would only show the two that are positive um because you typically wouldn't want that what to other people to know that what you're developing actually isn't working but in the context of science this is extremely inefficient so in science today there's there's this problem called the reproducibility crisis that is actually quite hard to reproduce other people's um other people's data sets that have generated um so just keep going okay okay um and so as I began looking into these companies it reminded me of my experience as a teenager in being in these much more open online shared communities where people just kind of live share data in real time and I thought to myself hey there's actually there's there's something there on the one side we have a pharmaceutical system that's incredibly inefficient and on the other side we have kind of these online open source communities of patients researchers Gathering um that could potentially be much more inefficient and a lot of this reminded me of the way that open source software is done which is I think really the topic in in the crypto space and any ethereum space um and so in open source software you have to remember that really up until the 80s and 90s um open source was not a thing and actually famously Microsoft called open source software a cancer many many years actually actively tried to sue the Linux Foundation um and Pharma today or like biotech and actually much of science still works like open source in the 80s and 90s you have to imagine like Pharma companies are like like giant ibms that are trying to develop everything closed source and effectively buying a drug from a from a pharmacy that is kind of licensed through a very very long complex closed Source process it's similar to like in the 90s buying a Windows CD and then going home and providing a new CD key I don't know how many of you remember doing that but and today that would be Unthinkable right be Unthinkable to still go into a physical Store buy a CD that is protected and then and then enter that CD key but that's essentially where much of the scientific system is still in today foreign still not look at that um and so as I began getting more and more into this um I kind of realized that there's a fundamental opportunity here to create a much more open and shared system through the use of web3 Technologies because the fundamental difference often in science and in software is that science is is in meat space it exists in the real world and so you can't just as easily as easily replicate it as you can in other Industries so here today we will we're going to look at what are the problems definition and goals of the DSi community in space as a whole uh we're going to look a little bit about what we've accomplished so far specifically by going into one specific um one specific use case we want to look at where the whole Space is going and the different Lego blocks that are emerging and then essentially quickly move into Workshop sessions and different breakout groups to explore specific building blocks that have emerged in the in the D side space so DSi has actually only existed for around one year it's a very very new phenomenon and the goal for this Workshop today is also to essentially help Define a future roadmap of where the space is going and and how we can build Technical Solutions to essentially enable the next generation of design developers um to build permissionless open systems that that can really serve future Generations um I asked briefly before who knows about video dial but it would be really interesting actually to know who maybe in the audience actually has a scientific background okay it's actually much more people than expected can I maybe ask you what your what your background is social scientist okay cool and there was a hand up over there Dentistry cool anyone else yeah medicine okay perfect and the assistant yeah can you see that again oh pre-clinical research okay that's that's how that's our Jam also doctor used to be a doctor now a d side Dev Kevin anatomy and cell biology cool awesome what a great crowd um it's just gonna keep haunting me so even though the spaces only existed for a year um there's actually we've seen almost a Cambrian explosion of DSi projects uh and there's a lot of tinkering and like ongoing development um big shout out to a team called ultra rare bio if you want to follow them for like updates around the design space um this overview was actually created in I think in May so I think by now already there's a whole range of new projects downs and systems that have emerged that are actually not not on here um but just to see how quickly the space is moving and as any kind of new industry emerges one of the most important things is to avoid redundancy and if you maybe some of you remember how the whole defy space and D5 Community came into being it's really through building open interoperable Lego blocks that we can all build on together and so the biggest thing that you actually want to avoid in the early development of a of a space like this is yeah redundancy and you want to enable permissionless interoperability permission this for example means not introducing friction in the use of services permissionness means building in an open source way permissionless means um creating events like this for communities to come together and share rather than building in in silos because what now that we like in building out the design space we should really ensure that we're not kind of making the same mistakes as the the industries and people that came before us um and it's tempting to do so and it's tempting to do so because actually creating friction between systems is the way that most Industries actually capture value today it's about introducing them to learn um and so I represent an organization called molecule and this is also something that's really important to us like how can we enable open permission of systems how can we enable other people to to build together rather than um rather than introducing frictions and systems um yes cool so we have a big opportunity here today to define the roadmap for future Builders and create an open collaborative technical infrastructure in the same way that that ethereum enabled an open collaborative infrastructure and so DSi will be most successful in my view if really enabled as these interoperable permissionless Lego blocks that we can all put together and and build on so now the question for today's Workshop is what Lego blocks do we need for which types of design application pretty simple um and if we manage to build those Lego blocks in the right way then I already think in two years we won't in two years we won't have we won't have 80 organizations but we'll probably have like two thousand this is essentially what what would happen in in the web 3 space when D5 came up in probably in 2018-19 I remember there being like maybe two three four five D5 applications they were extremely early um but if some of you for example remember maker down uh would then launch or not remember but no maker down who launched cdps and die so die essentially was a building block that enabled the the emergence of a huge amount of default applications um and that's that's one way to think so science today is full of problems funding in science is incredibly difficult it's highly competitive it's very asymmetrically distributed often only goes to the best universities it goes to um scientists that have a lot of academic pedigree it's very political to get funded um and there's some really interesting Insight that actually most scientists today would change their topics or their field if if funding was not a concern so almost like scientists that they have to be extremely opportunistic they can't often actually work on what they want to work on they can't actually work on their feces they often have to just chase the money um so one of the first researchers that we worked with that molecule and also one of the the first researchers to get funded through Vita Dao gave us a famous quote which was that he spends 80 of his time fundraising and 20 of the time doing all the research and so fundraising in this context actually means getting grants um from different different institutions then the second thing is replication um I gave this example earlier in with biotech companies but much of science today is not reproducible uh so someone will will say hey here's a study I got the following outputs and then you'll try to run the same experiments and not get the same answers so how do we get there um the the further thing is competition so science today has become hyper competitive and that really creates perverse incentives um often you have uh you have competition for the same grants and then there's an issue with um essentially like scooping each other's work so it's also we don't have a system yet today where there's a lot of scientific Integrity actually between different scientists and then a last problem is that science today is still really inaccessible um much of important scientific literature lives really behind paywalls um it's not it's not open source um and science is often to many people still not very accessible if we think that actually before any before the whole nft art craze I never felt that art was very accessible to me it's like quite a complex actually process to go into a gallery to figure out what you like to like it's art wasn't very accessible for nfts but so I think web3 actually has the potential to make signs much more accessible to the to the broader population for example if you have a specific disease and you're really interested in maybe funding Therapeutics and then area or actually getting much deeper involved in it it's not it's not that easy for you today foreign and a lot of these problems that we actually face in the scientific Community are the same problems that we have in other Industries today they stem from centralizing authorities um so funding for example is largely distributed through governments uh or it's largely distributed through very powerful large private corporations um and decentralizing authorities essentially affect each part of the scientific value flow another example is the publishing houses that essentially control much of how uh what is actually published so if a publisher doesn't want to doesn't want to publish your research it may just mean that it actually never never gets disseminated to a much broader audience uh and so this is what has to what we've well we have to start changing move away from decentralizing authorities that actually govern access to science and govern Truth uh and move into a much more open scientific system so the question is and maybe one one addition here um how many of you are familiar with the open science movement does anyone want to give a definition of open science yeah lower barriers um I remember talking to the Center for open science who was working on a replication challenge um and basically trying to find a lot of I guess he would say web two ways of addressing these problems and why do you think open science today do you think it has succeeded um I it doesn't seem like it's gone as fast this year that I hope that that'd go and I think that they don't really have that much yeah yeah so funding huge problem and funding is often based on incentives what are the incentives for open science today Let's Build a Better Planet like Yay unfortunately like like Goodwill doesn't pay and unfortunately we live in a very capitalistic and profit-oriented system it's actually the most interesting application of web 3 I think today it has really been creating incentive machines uh incentive machines that fundamentally alter people's behavior and so I think a fundamental thesis for us it was that the reason open science has not succeeded is because um because there's no incentive on it um and for taking this example that we had earlier with a biotech company that actually only hasn't sent us to publish positive data but not the negative if we now had open public markets as we do in the crypto space for example if I you can make an analogy that if I find a bug in a crypto Network that's like open source research so actually crypto networks are relatively open source so if I discover a bug data is actually now valuable negative information so that could be like this crypto network is flawed and now I have two options I could I could hack it and stand to benefit from that and through that actually I'm revealing that this code was fundamentally flawed which is actually valuable to society it's like this was actually flawed um or I could I could also just ping the team and tell them hey guys your code is buggy you should fix this ASAP now imagine if we had the same thing for medicine if if there was an incentive to now create both positive and negative data about an asset I could be like hey there's a drug here that's in development um there's a lot of kind of there's a lot of hype around it but actually I as a scientist have a thesis that this drug might actually be toxic in humans in this in this use case and now I have an incentive to release that data or actually to create it and so all of these incentives are actually for open science are missing today and that's what we're going to build together [Laughter] um so what if science is decentralized maybe first let's ask the question of why is decentralization so important in decentralized system users can participate in a trustless system so you don't need to trust a middleman I don't need to trust a publishing house for example I can trust other participants in the system it lowers the risk of systemic failures um I don't know if you have some of you recently heard about the the big Alzheimer's trial or Benji can you maybe quickly oh anyone from the audience yeah I mean there's been this whole issue around like the amyloids yeah in Alzheimer's and there's been a lot of um I think career academics who have built their reputation and their Laboratories and their funding around Alzheimer's and particular pieces and I think they managed to through political force lobbying for the power of the Alzheimer's Alzheimer's institution and ammoid data relationship through a drug through the approval process that just doesn't work yeah and it got extremely far just based on a fundamentally flawed hypothesis and then fundamentally pipe flawed hypothesis was promoted by centralizing authorities um yeah and so actually many drugs I think not just wondering many drugs were actually started being developed just based on that thesis yeah um another one is just like avoiding censorship resistance avoiding censorship resistance Fosters a much more open culture and the last point is really enabling enabling global global collaboration so what is the why what and how of design so why are we doing this we're doing this to build an open science movement and to make science more collaborative and make it accessible and open to everyone like if you're a promising scientist in Nairobi you should have the same opportunities and chances as a promising scientist at Harvard today that is not the case in the same way that if you're a developer on ethereum I don't really care if you're in Nairobi or in Cape Town or in in Boston does make a difference the same thing should apply for science what are we doing we're building a Global open alternative to the current scientific system that anyone can participate in so equal access to anyone equal opportunity if you have a promising um actually Vincent I love that that example that you typically give around um around getting funded by a Dao as a young researcher you could be in a 16 year old whiz kid sitting somewhere having a great idea looking for funding in the current scientific system you'd never get funding there's zero credibility zero trust to actually receive funding from a reputable institution but with these dials that are emerging like age doesn't really matter anymore what matters are your ideas your integrity and the data that you can produce and how are we doing this so we have three fundamentally as a technology that enables scientists to raise funding to run experiments to share data and distribute their insights much more openly so what design verticals have emerged because the scientific field is extremely broad um so the area that this has currently targeting and attempting to disrupt one is funding of data IP and impact which is a huge field so what we're essentially trying to enable is Foster and more democratic funding mechanisms that enable communities to form and govern impact or novel forms by P another big vertical is publishing so having transparent Open Access publishing with aligned incentives for all participants having incentivized peer review Systems for for example the third one is Dows and research on governance over these research assets so dials present an entirely new way of organizing researcher or patient involvement and for example clinical trials this has never been possible before if you're a patient today you you have no absolutely no choice What lands what like what comes onto the market you have no choice over the price it might be in life-saving medicine that you need every day to survive you have no influence on the price on access whether it is actually the right medication um yeah and neither do researchers so we have this very long drug development process but we've removed the course stakeholders from that process and another one is identity and reputation systems for academic credentialing so how do we actually trust scientists in these different systems um maybe I want to ask into the audience so these are kind of design verticals that we've seen emerge across the field do you feel that anything is actually missing there yeah yeah how would you just uh like in what in what use case like um a lot of like ways really good point yeah yeah so what we're going to do in the like what yes addressing like the replication or reproducibility of data that's actually a good point well in publishing actually but we should add it that's actually let's um let's note that as a point for the workshop later it would actually be awesome to like not just consider these areas but really map out realistically what all the different verticals are um I want to go a little bit into just one of the verticals which we're working on specifically but we also don't have to spend too much time on it um there's a lot of other talks that I've given in the past where I can go into this um but of all of these areas where we currently seeing the most traction is funding an IP um uh because it's like it's relatively simple today I think to facilitate um funding use cases through web3 technology I think it's still much harder for example to to facilitate Identity or reputation systems 303. foreign ticals in in funding in IP so we have retroactive public goods funding um some of you may have participated or even benefited from the recent DSi Bitcoin route um so that was a great um a great example of that the other one is quadratic funding having a fair more democratic way to bounce actually allocate funding to projects um a third one is having Dows and tokenized incentive structures such as we did that and the fourth one um are IP nfts which are new form of of on-chain native IP and data ownership foreign so actually for each of these verticals as well something that we could do later we could start defining all of the different sub areas in that vertical um I want to quickly maybe ask a question into the audience uh so do you want me to go deep into one of these verticals now or should we actually leave it much more open go deep okay let's go deep my goal like yeah whatever yeah the only thing I want to avoid is that we prime it too much about this one use case because there's so many other use cases but what is interesting about looking at funding in IP and specifically what would we as molecules have developed which is the ipn ft is that it's already very applicable in this theoretic um but so if we look at one of the like the fundamental problem spaces of how does innovation and biotech research actually work today so you have Innovation emerging at the fringes of an organization and then in most organizations Innovation is driven through a funnel um and then essentially you curate ideas as they emerge in systems and eventually something goes into a market so you have idea generation you define the project and it moves through this funnel um and you can actually map the same process to the entire drug development pipeline so this process today can take like industry industry averages to take up to 10 years to actually develop a new drug and to drive it through all these Cycles without one of the biggest problems with that is that like um cancer is a global phenomenon yet every company developing cancer Therapeutics is doing it in a silo by themselves and you could ask wait wouldn't it be much more efficient if this was done as an open and public funnel imagine instead of every company having this funnel by themselves and and like we're essentially investing so many resources on a global scale to try to achieve the same things wouldn't it be much more efficient if we had a giant open funnel um and this is essentially what we could build with red free and you can imagine each of these little dots are now individual research projects or individual individual assets driving through this funnel um and why is it why is it that way and the reason actually behind that everyone is doing their own thing is because we have something that called the patent system that fundamentally uses IP um but patents are really Legacy legal physical assets um patterns are literally often still in most organizations boxes of papers which if you think we're in 2022 is absolutely mind-boggling it's somewhat ridiculous that we're using an extremely bureaucratic and outdated IP system um that makes IP very hard to enact it's often much too expensive to claim IP in the early stages it's really hard to get IP out of the university the patent finding system takes ages um and so what happened actually often that a lot of Ip were a lot of promising projects that are in here never see the light of day and it's not because of because they're actually not interesting projects it's actually because the entire Innovation System that we've built around them is is really inefficient uh and so there's something called the valley of death which typically happens here so actually most of the world's Innovation never even enters like enters further stages uh which is if we think about scientific progress is really it's really a shame it's like there's so much good um good signs that never sees the light of day and if we think about data and software data and software today is completely virtual but if you think Back 40 years ago companies literally had still had like entire floors with filing cabinets pulling hundreds of people to sort through those data sets um this is an example I really like using the screenshot was taken about a week ago this is the current state of the art of the US PTO patent search system that's literally how it looks in 2022 and the only other the only alternatives to this system are paying really expensive like legal software to essentially to essentially search and discover patents so if we if if I was someone who was like hey let me look for interesting cancer research that's been patented and I'm like trying to find something in here like this is this is what I'm supposed to use from the government of course there's better system than this but they're typically proprietary I'd have to pay for them um yeah so this this is what we want to get away from yeah yeah what what do you think here I mean I think the first thing the first thing I would say is it's extremely static uh it's impossible for me to actually contact the um the researcher or The Institute that's working on it it's hard for me to see what's done or if anything has been successful around it um thank you baby that's different depreciation here is a very low resolution like high volume database that the U.S government like interfaces like fundamental and transparency extract um [Music] um I also I have no idea if someone's actively working on this uh I also yeah it's and actually if someone has patented it it almost disincentivizes me to work on it because like fundamentally for example if uh if let's say I'm a researcher at a university and I look at um a new interesting molecule that that I've kind of come across and I search whether it's been patented and I realize it's been patented like I don't have an incentive to Now work on it because I could literally get sued for for engaging in that in that in that research so IP monopolies really kill Innovation at large and they also lead to much higher drug prices um so what we have a system today that rather than the best science winning we really have Revenue drivers that dominate that dominate medicine so at molecule we've really spent almost the past four years asking ourselves what could a better system look like for this and we're trying to build towards an open market for iip so kind of trying to reimagine the system and making it much more transparent and one fundamental thesis that we have is that most of the world's potential scientific Talent remains untapped and so for example if we think through what happened in in the nft market the nft market for for artists and now for music fundamentally has changed how we interact with art and fundamentally has enabled a different Creator economy for artists uh and so what if we enable a creative economy for scientists um to really help helping the best Innovation across the world rise to the top um so we are building towards an open transparent Marketplace for research funding that is underpinned by a new a new DSi primitive and now the question is really how do we bring legal IP and data into web3 and one kind of D side Lego block that that we've started building on is essentially a new a concept called an ipnft so what is an iPhone ft ipn ft is first it's a legal contract and a real world license that is tied to research or data so it's a legal contract that now takes IP out of an organization or out of University and attaches that to an nft the second is it has a storage layer so you have a decentralized permanent data storage with public and private data repos so almost now imagine this this nft is like simple simplest way of saying it it's like has like a decentralized Google Drive attached to it where the owner can now provide read and write permissions to anyone that wants that it's transactable in the same way that an nft is transactable it's discoverable through public metadata around that nft so I can now publicly on change start searching through the metadata of these assets and then fundamentally and I think this is the most exciting part you the IP now becomes programmable and composable that means you have governance you have fractionalization um if you're interested in actually ipfg fractionalization um we have one of our someone from our legal team here we've developed a new framework that's called the friends framework um because fundamentally what you need to avoid is making any of these assets like Securities because then they don't become transactable in web free and they don't become Lego blocks at least for now um you can have programmatic royalties or pay for Success models we also have someone here from the crowdfunding cures um team which pay for Success models represent a really new fascinating way to essentially do repurposing of um of of drugs what does this kind of look like from a kind of from an online perspective so you have a real legal contract that's mapped onto a smart contract that then maps to metadata that is stored in our wave and then you have encrypted and private patent data that now fundamentally protects the IP and this latter part you can open up you can open source it or you can keep it private um one one really one big thing that Riri does it's actually really hard to do open science in a field like biotech because um we began we began working with an organization called The Open Source Pharma Foundation this is in uh in 2019 and essentially what they do is they create public GitHub repos for um open source drug development that they're doing so they were researching malaria open source mycertoma essentially different tropical diseases that it really underserved and so um what they realized though in doing that as soon as you publish for example the the structure of a new molecule in a giveaway you open source it and you say this could be used as a malaria drug it fundamentally forever becomes unpatentable and now they were working with the development in the Gates Foundation for example and then realized about doing that that the Gates Foundation essentially said we'll never be able to fund any of your malaria drugs even if they work because they become unpattentable and because the problem is if you don't have any patents around drugs you can't essentially get the asset through late stage clinical development no one is going to come and pay let's say the 100 million dollar plus that you need for legacy to a stage three clinical trial which is like which is a big shame it's just how the system works today it's today it's fundamentally impossible to do open source drug developments um however I think as thousands and communities for example get much larger you can actually move more in into impact driven development so maybe so to close the session ipnfts in our view are really a first composable web 3 Lego block so they can be transacted like nfts and applied for funding Dows can now build portfolios of research um of ipn FTS so we have this new phenomenon um a bio dowels that have been emerging which are Dows that are now focused on different therapeutic areas so since we design emerged we now have a dial focusing on Neuroscience um there's a dial focusing on psychedelic research there's a doubt focusing on women's reproductive Health there's a dial focusing on hair loss uh there's another doubt focusing on synthetic biology and all of these dials can now use the ipnft as a basic building block to build an on-chain portfolio of IP um nfts can also be fractionalized kind of and be inserted as design Lego blocks you could imagine an nft and an ipn ft being fractionalized and then those fractions going into different on-chain liquidity pools um they're fascinating new mechanisms where the the the fees that are now being generated through these liquidity pools can actually be used to fund the research as well so everything that has been built in D5 for the past two years three years can now also be cross-applied to design um for example also data access can now be granted by multi-signature wallets um and we really only beginning to scratch the surface of what is possible here now one of our core goals and molecule for the next uh for the next two months three months it's actually fully open sourcing this first version of the ipfg protocol to enable anyone to start playing around with it and essentially just tinkering around with it because we don't actually know yet how many applications this this can be used for um so what are the basic design web 3 Lego blocks so I think we're looking at transaction layers we're looking at data storage layers we're looking at compute and execution layers um and then finally we have identity layers or reputation layers the ipnft for example combines what I would say is a transaction layer and a data storage layer but it doesn't actually touch any of the other layers um and so now we're slowly moving into the the workshop part I think Tyler just left uh so the goals for this Workshop today is essentially now to look at both what Lego blocks do we have and uh to look at how how are they matched with different design verticals so we have different Lego blocks that are merging web3 how do we map them into these design verticals before to to solve fundamental problems in in web 3. so the goal of this Workshop uh will be to really explore how we can how decentralized science can improve the process of funding doing and disseminating science through the use of decentralized systems so now we're going to look at each of these different elements uh and yeah since you start workshopping them Vincent yeah so the form of the workshop will be that we now have a breakout session for about 40 minutes where we can gather around these different topics we also have multiple members from leading organizations from these different areas uh in the room with us today um we can then do like breakout pitches where people from that if not formed through these different teams can essentially pitch their ideas and then we we can all discuss them together Vincent yeah so maybe um like basically we'll collect all the outputs for nodes kind of from each table um in a shared Google doc which also has some of the um like links and instructions so you can scan this link I think it's also under um yeah do you want to explain the website now do you want to run through it again sure um yeah so is there a Microsoft okay yeah yeah so I think the thought was basically there's these four high level verticals that we've just that we sort of identified but obviously this can be opened up much more broadly depending on if someone has an individual like interest that they want to tackle that isn't met by the list that we have here but so we can look at things in the context of funding an IP which would be things such as like basic science for example grad funding translational research productizing medicines all the way I'm taking a very large Sciences approach we can also look at how this Humane social sciences for example data and reproducibility which we can think about in the context of like how scientists work today how data is captured what are some of the incentive structures that exist or problems around how data is actually reproduced we have this sort of negative data sort of like positive and negative data problems with regards to reproducibility and also incentive structures things in the context of publishing like how to make incentivize open access the culture of Science and how it functions to directly to reward scientists that only publish in very high impact journals and the effect that has things like identity and reputation so potentially exploring how things like impact factor for example um create issues in the current scientific system and rethinking how a lot of these things would look in a sort of Desi native web free context and So within each of these I think there's obviously a lot of ideas that we could tackle I think functionally it would make most sense to sort of organize around either case that we wanted to join which could be like creating a fast grants mechanism for basic science research funding ethereum or creating a um a reputation system for D side dials as examples or we could also look at just a particular problem space so I think there's quite a bit of flexibility but I think the idea would be to organize um in individual tables that are looking at a specific problem that we sort of agree on and then explore that map it out a bit and I think yeah I don't know if you want to open you could open the document is on here just so we can maybe go through the doc is the same stuff that's in here yeah just a little bit more um so I think there's a couple of different things I think it's also depending on what time do you want to take this yeah so there's we prepared a dock that we're going to share a QR code for although I think we might have been rugged on the internet front so it might be a bit difficult um cool but you can open you can't open the dock here no worries um yeah so you can scan this with your phone and we've basically prepared a document that talks a little bit about some of the goals of the workshop I think there's a couple of different ways that we can approach this the first is really just to facilitate robust discussions that are currently looking at like what is the status quo and the Sciences today so if we look at something like funding for example or something like publishing what is functioning really well in the current system what is not functioning so well in the current system and basically identifying the sort of like where we're succeeding and where we're not and then begin to think about what aspects of the current system we want to migrate into this novel let's say DSi focused architecture what we think needs to be upgraded and what can go and then they actually begin thinking through Maybe by Chopin show of hands how many developers are in the room or technically oriented folks let's say you don't need to necessarily really be a developer so yeah maybe an interesting way to organize if we're capable of doing this would be to in a perfect world this might be challenging but we would have like one developer per table one UI ux person for table one scientist per table or one maybe a social scientist per table and try to create like little working groups that are basically trying to prototype what possible infrastructure could look like in the context of DSi to solve some of these problems um does that make sense do we want to maybe start by like we can also throw up a couple prompts or like use cases that we want to tackle people could raise their hands and and we could also just walk around and try to organize uh self-organize into different topics that's extremely difficult to read um but yeah totally there's a lot of flexibility I think from this point in how we actually how we actually run this but I think the the prime takeaway or the main thing that we should be working towards is basically just trying to create a clear road map to solving some of the problems that we've identified together in these verticals does that make sense any questions cool would it make sense to start by actually organizing a bit based on expertise so like like devs can get together product people can get together UI ux people scientists can get together and then we can actually from that choose like organize into actual groups and tables for specific problems or where I would consider organizing by vertical mode yeah we can also we can also just create a bunch of verticals for example and then the yeah ideally we just want even distribution of people with particular expertise in each area if if that's possible yeah and they're building for vertical otherwise devs to only be together I think that would just be the first step and then yeah but it totally works oh yeah we can do that too are there any major like does anyone have a prompt or an idea or specific like a specific idea that they would like to work I think every day so do we want to maybe take five or ten minutes to brainstorm some core ideas and then begin organizing around this without our idea maybe maybe we start like this like what are some of the like should we start with like problem spaces like again like a vertical like publishing or like funding and then someone can share their idea and then people can gather around that idea okay what idea do you want to work on Tyler I would love to think about a novel reputation system specifically for DSI so looking at the current faults with impact factor and basically how we deal with academic credentials and think about what the V2 of this looks like for for DSI so if you want to think about this problem you're more than welcome to come join me at this table to to tackle it okay reputation cool um I'm curious to look at publishing from a hypertext perspective so like because I see how referencing is super old school like you're publishing PDFs it's super hard to look at where research came from so I'm interested in exploring like the web native Hypertech system and migrating that to how research could look like in an interactive web environment publishing at a high level uh my name is Michael I'm interested in like the scientific process so like the data collection the data storage any sort of computation that happens around it in order to like hypothesis generation cool okay how would you what would the overarching Talk data collection data connection awesome data connection and scientific process around data connections for me it's legal protection for fundraising around ipnfts fundraising around the science and the legal structures that people want to employ for that so if you want to do legal over here Jesse's a lawyer not your lawyer in general but I think that's more likely what you were speaking about okay awesome awesome cool perfect um I will do one on um hyper certificates and kind of impact markets in like retroactive public goods dope okay we have maybe room for one more I guess uh decentralized clinical trials oh that's awesome cool okay very complex decentralized clinical trials um anyone else though does everyone have a does anyone have everyone have a topic that they're like interested in doing or helping with cool I assume so [Laughter] cool time is slowly up I want to slowly start bringing all of you guys back oink oink [Laughter] what no why will it be called my attention I don't know I was just yeah did the pig didn't catch it Tobacco um okay cool hey everyone uh so I want to slowly start bringing us back because it would be awesome if each of your groups can now kind of present the specific vertical that you explored and some of the solutions uh some of the Lego blocks that maybe emerged around that um uh so maybe if someone from your team can come up or do you want to stay in your circle what do you prefer stay in the circle okay but you have to stand up while you're presenting um who wants and so maybe take two to three minutes to walk through the findings of your team and maybe the solutions that you discussed um and then it will be really awesome if someone from your team can actually capture it and if you haven't already just write it and put it into this document uh if it is already in the document I'm actually just going to scroll through and check I lost it if anyone can see I think I misplaced the mic somewhere or maybe the support people took it but it should be somewhere um and yeah so just transcribe kind of that main outputs that you're also going to present into this doc so that we can share it with the world and the community after this that would be really awesome okay um who wants to go first you have to stand up so uh we were looking at a scientific reputation system and looking first at how our current like scientific reputation system functions so we first mapped the current system out into two verticals one would be formal credentials and other would be sort of informal reputation and formal credentials are things that are verifiable measurable and somewhat quantifiable these are things like academic affiliation degree impact factor H score pedigree citations for example and funding sources and then there's more sort of informal more let's say qualitative reputation things this is like social media and press collaborators and peers um who you know political affiliations hype your ability to influence others and we mapped out some pros and cons in each of these if you want to like look at these in detail you're you're more than welcome to they're they'll be in the dock but just as like a high level example without going into excruciating depth on each of these things like academic affiliation can demonstrate or attract quality they could signal trustworthiness they can be associated with specific areas of expertise they could act as sort of shelling points but on the other side they can create inequality they can for example Foster sort of like uh certain reinforcement patterns create like Legacy students there's a bunch of problems in sort of fostering sorry this the stock is moving in real-timeism um reading it I'll just talk through it rather I think I can do it from memory um there's there's a bunch of things in the context of this current um let's say verifiable metrics that still need work so impact factor is something that um I think can be quite positive in terms of it could demonstrate readership and citations but it can also be heavily gamified and is used to largely um sort of reinforce um yeah certain popular ideas many noble laureates for example don't publish in high impact journals their ideas are initially rejected so we're basically trying to look at in the context of all of these different um verticals whether they be like verifiable credentials or sort of informal credentials what are the sort of things that we want to bring over into into DSi in the context of this um let's say new reputation system and so we did a little bit of work thinking about things like um credentials and these could be represented by things like Soul bound tokens for example so instead of just having academic affiliations who want to have things like industry affiliations Guild affiliations Dow affiliations what are the communities that you're associated with what are the values of those communities and how do we measure those um I think we also want to look at for people who are involved actively in funding how are they making an impact what Dallas and organizations are they a part of what areas have they done research in what areas have they may be impacted and this is also a hard thing to measure but I think using impact certificates and actually pull-ups in some cases you could begin to use some of those Technologies to measure um the impact that somebody's having we could also look at things like gits and like pull requests in the context of liking data becoming increasingly but like let's say if you're doing in silica work in the context of of biology um you can begin to look uh more in real time at how somebody is contributing data to a certain research area and began to measure an impact that way and there's also things like measuring Dow reputation so if I'm a contributor in a Dell you know am I somebody that people are delegating boats to am I somebody who's being rewarded via things like coordinate have I been elected as Stuart and then also looking at other factors like value captured value generated am I deploying funding have I have I received funding from certain people we could also look at like token Holdings we could look at how active I am as a governance contributor in a dial but in the end there's all of these sort of uh all of these I would say new interaction patterns that are happening by the internet that are actually producing a lot of really really rich data that is quite different from how PSI science works today and what we want to try to figure out and where we haven't gotten to actually in the context of this short session is really thinking about how those things are all weighted how they're measured and I think the most interesting question here if we think about creating like a holistic reputation system that would be akin to something like impact factor um it's really challenging to do because I think the needs of scientific communities are are very different so for example I might be somebody that from a reputation perspective is a really good developer or is maybe just really good at data collation and data analysis how is my reputation weighed against somebody who has maybe also publishing and also funding research and so thinking about dynamically how these systems interact I think will be a really interesting technical challenge one of the things that we were thinking about was like if a Dao has a certain set of needs so for example feedadel might have a need for longevity researchers that have worked in X or Y fields and have of for example experience with certain assays and certain data techniques that is very different from another organization that is maybe just an investment-focused Dao and wants to know if somebody has been particularly good at deploying funding or making good bets and so I'll cap it here so like the the thing that we're thinking about is like in the context of a how can we create Dynamic reputation systems where the organizations themselves are specifying what they're looking for whether it be a series of Soul bound tokens and DOW affiliations or specific credentials and how can we have a system that basically adapts based on the skill sets that that individuals have so sort of like everything we've talked about taking a dynamic approach to this reputation system that is not one-sided meaning that it's not just the impact factor of researcher but the needs of an organization juxtaposed against uh the specific skill set that someone has and I think this could be really interesting because going back to an earlier example that you made Paul if there's like a 16 year old uh somewhere in the world that ends up being an excellent scientific reviewer because they self-taught themselves I don't know like biochemistry and you know on the internet no one knows your age but they're making they're making like comments on papers or whatever that are really valued by the community we want a way to to measure that that is like independent of academic affiliation for example or what if it was even just an AI bot or a dog or a dog on the internet no one knows you're a dog and in a blockchain network no one knows you're a fridge on that note thank you so much for sharing that Tyler could your group also please upload uh your doc into the into the section and then maybe I'll just go uh so it's a bit buggy here cool we'll go into tableware traffic public goods next just because that's up right now okay awesome and we have about maybe we have about three minutes at the moment for each um for each topic I just want to make sure that everyone gets a chance to speak before they kick us out of here oh yeah do you want to come up front cool yeah yeah awesome um okay so yeah we're talking about um impact certificates and Hyper certs and retract to public goods funding so um I don't know if you guys can bring up there we've got like a diagram that looks like this foreign there we go yeah okay so the whole idea behind impact markets is to look at funding public goods and science as a public good so the most important thing is to look at like how do we value impact that's the trickiest part um and then once we've got that essentially the market we need to find retractive funding so in this particular case we're talking about we've got this thing called the longevity prize the Vincent's sorting and we read it through Bitcoin and sort of raised say 250 Grand and so we've got like a source of retroactive funding available then the next question is kind of what do we want to uh what sort of impacts you know is is going to be in something that can scale so you know if the prize ends up being 10 million dollars or 100 million dollars or whatever then you know we've still got impact being generated um once you've got that essentially you can do this thing called um you can mend an ipn ft or a hybrid sir they're kind of similar Concepts but what those do is they let you as somebody that can potentially deliver some impact say you're a scientist and you've got a really great idea and you want to get funded and it's a public good you can mint um you know there's ipn ffts that's hyperspirate and then raise money basically from from investors where before like you know because it's a public good essentially there's no way like under the traditional IP system that you can enforce a Monopoly price so um yeah I keep talking about um generic drugs and things like that so that's something I'm interested in but um which is yeah basically if you can get an off patent drug and repurpose it uh to treat a new disease like so ketamine to treat depression let's say um you know you could actually create like billions of dollars and and social value with quite a like little bit of um investment there retractive funding so um yeah um so so yeah basically once once you've delivered the impact whatever that might be so for instance improved clinical outcomes versus usual care then you will get um the uh outcome payment under this um uh the from the retracted funding um um and the market basically figures things out so if it's not enough funding like if 250k is not enough you can basically get um philanthropy to put in the rest so it's a little bit like Bitcoin where like you sort of have little donations creating signals or little Investments creating signals for a philanthropic funder to come in and and find the rest so yeah you may be named like two or three Lego blocks that you see that are really important to make this effect uh oh yeah yeah I think what one could add is basically that um every scientist could basically mint this impact certificate even if they have like other funding and then could sell it like one of our ideas was in a more like crowdfunding sense that you don't have to buy it for say a hundred thousand but you can put in a hundred bucks or a thousand bucks and get like almost like a small share in this impact certificate which could be just like an um IBN ft which could then be basically put into like a million pieces for example and then it's almost like also like a pop and kind of like um collectible because you show that you funded research so so it gives you not only potentially like the price but also almost like some status as being a science funder you're doing like impact so it's kind of like also a bit of philanthropy and it's almost like a collectible so you can like collect all the little research you from this um but it's also like a prediction Market because you can potentially sell it so like as it could hit the price it could also grow in value so it's almost like you're signaling what you think is the most likely to dot com so the Lego blocks are like iPhone FPS elc20s and kind of like deploying them just like on uniswap and then people getting great liquidity or short than uh just one more thing I like so for retroactive funder is that super important so maybe you could have an open like uh impact uh mid you know impact nft scientific impact nft to encourage people to become retractive funders so much uh okay we have data and process up next so so I think some of the things we talked about was like uh so the first thing we want to do is like how can we uh collect data for uh uh for scientific purposes and then one of the things we cover one of the problems that we need to solve is like how do we collect uh how do we get gather people not just for collecting surveys not just for conducting surveys but also like how do you get other people to uh participate in clinical trials and all that falls under like a a a a we need sort of like a database of sorts which can store metadata and allow people to like ask questions to this entire population and see narrow them down to specific uh segments and so that could be like a distributed database for example maybe and and then you have to apply like operations on that distributed database to find your target audience and so other things we talked about was like uh how do we in throughout the scientific process uh you also need to like I didn't before you even start research you need to identify what is a problem that actually needs to be solved and so uh in in order to identify a real issue that needs to be solved you have to make sure that uh it's the actual problem and and you need to uh not not you can't trust um majority of the population to know what is the natural problem because certain uh populations may have like uh like there may be like groups of people called healthy and groups of people one and and the healthy people may uh outvote the unhealthy people so then how do you address the problems with the unhealthy people like maybe uh yeah like like uh because we do actually need to solve the problem for unhealthy people in a way uh yeah so what is the right thing to fund is the there's a problem in yourself also and then uh yeah more things on uh yeah so can you scroll down like scroll down okay oh oh my God so I think other things are like uh [Music] um yeah like so we talked about Cloud labs and how can like Cloud labs and like how can we conduct uh how can we have like databases of people of labs or like facilities that can uh help conduct research and then also like even currently web uh and then also another thing is like throughout the signing process you also need to make sure that your experiments are conducted uh uh trust in a trusted manner so how can we have chains of trust that go that go from like from the ground maybe like from the individual level all the way to back to the researcher and then beyond the research actually yeah and uh I think one final thing we touched on is like how do you duplicate uh how do you duplicate experiments or studies conducted and that will usually involve like open source studies and being able to query these studies so we'll need solutions to like uh uh catalog and index studies already conducted in the past and yeah there's a lot of problems in I think in in summary there's a lot of problems throughout the scientific process that requires individual tools and race uh two very uh specific open tools that are globally accessible and in order to be able to re increase the efficiency of the way the scientific process is conducted yeah I think that's summary of what we would think thank you so much [Applause] okay any questions from anyone also maybe on the previous topic I would love to give more time for questions than discussion actually but we're also quite low on time and I want everyone to be able to present um okay then last but not least we have publishing what sorry okay cool thank you um so we're the publishing team um I guess for us it's it's really a question of building connective tissue or also before I start with also the penguin team because we have a penguin on our little thing here um but but the real real question we're trying to solve is that of like connective tissue and really linking everything together and the big question at the top is how do we amplify Collective thinking within the context of scientific discovery and how can we make that process easier um for people and this involves you know at the start we're just asking lots of questions um you know who are we designing this for are we designing this to replace um for Publishers or for researchers um and also is there an incentive for Publishers to participate so what we kind of realized during our discussion is that um basically what we're trying to do is replace Publishers that's middlemen and come up with uh with a system that is more decentralized and Equitable for the researchers that are involved um and another big problem that we talked about was actually actually um crypto history and and I think Brewster kale had a brilliant talk on this yesterday I did before from the internet archive um how you can just pull Publications off of the record and you don't want you really want to avoid that and you want things to be accountable uh 50 100 years down the road so our solution is really just to use the existing technologies that already are around like our weave and content addressing to build connective tissue um for linking between papers and Publications um and the big sort of money or like the Lego here would be for DSI would be some sort of publishing standard with the associated metadata that will link these papers together whether that is like referencing um whether that is like referring to people who built the system the build wrote the paper and I think that's where it kind of plugs into the reputation system that the other team presents earlier um and also we discussed like how can we connect these papers to the IP that resulted from them and we were talking about how we could plug that in as well so you could imagine visiting like a Wikipedia site that pulls from an RV backend and has like really good user interface you could click and see what IPS are related to this how the reputation of these scientists who wrote this is and like also look at the references by 4 following the r weave links and because it's are we if it's permanent um you don't have to like worry about the data disappearing any point in time um the we also looked at some other systems here like Wikipedia is probably a great example for a linked um content system that has worked really well for for data um also stuff like DSi labs and bio rxiv um we're doing research in adjacent spaces um but but yeah that's about it thank you [Applause] thank you so much I really like how you can um essentially already started creating connections between the different um yeah the different topics um team in the back Benji that sounds like a bad excuse can you still talk about it um and we we have about six minutes six minutes left so that's why okay Mike okay I feel powerful now um so we talked about uh decentralized clinical trials um firstly why would you decentralize the how would web 3 work I think we came to a broad consensus that generally generally speaking the things you'd initially want to look at would be clinical trials where things weren't particularly dangerous and you can get over the counter and it's okay to ask the general public to do um we talked about data issues in that whether data should be stored in people's phone encrypt input on the blockchain and the issues that can happen when you've locked data on people's devices and they get sick or ill or unconscious um and generally decide that in a clinical trial they should probably always consent and those exceptions don't matter too much we also talked about how you would decide which trials to run and why um I think broadly we agreed there should be some vague oversights from professional people in that so you don't do something too dangerous um and last we talked about went down a big rabbit hole on incentives um the potential of micropayments and the pitfalls of people just taking the step counter um and attaching it to a piece of string and putting it in front of a fan apparently that works quite well um yeah thank you so much thank you okay so on the legal side we worked on a practical case and I presented a problem to Jesse so I worked for society Institute we are sort of perfect Problem Child for this eye we are a non-profit organization that is based in California that has existed for 40 years doing science really at the edge trying to accelerate science that's way too ambitious or too Niche for legacy institution generally to to feel comfortable to fund so you we work on neurotech biotech trying to push longevity Aid reversal brain computer interfaces building Dyson spheres because we also work on Space um AI crypto Etc um and so we have this organization it's a non-profit and we want to dial if I eat um and so there were two main categories of problems that I presented to Jesse one of them was how do we not deal Paradise the existing organization and the second one was more focused on governance and how to create a data structure that is really aligned uh with the ethics of our organization and Jesse was very helpful thanks Lou so we only have two two sets of solutions to these two questions one is how do you make a dow from your non-profit that doesn't jeopardize the Dao and its existence and the answer is well we did a Vita now a fair launch with with no pre-sale then that may Rob some people the wrong way who want to raise money privately from investors before launching the Dow but it's really the key to prevent an existential risk to your organization is to do a fair launch and what that means in practice is um having a team that's willing to bootstrap and and launch this organization and then get retroactively voted for their token-based compensation after the launch of the Dow number two is that there should be no direct claim on the treasury so you can't have a malach Dao style Rage Quit function that allows for the token holders to claim treasury assets there has to be some kind of break in that chain in order to prevent the token from having a secured interest in the treasury of the Dow in other words the token being a security and in that same vein no distribution of profits to token holders and so that leads to the question of like well well if you can't distribute profits to token holders token holders have no direct claim on the treasury then then what's the token for right how do you reward people for participating in this dial at all and and the answer is in part what we do a Vita dial and the best example is to look at a university endowment a university endowment makes Investments right it makes money it it makes money for the University and then that money is distributed to University administrators to students through scholarships to making buildings to making the university a better place no Professor or student has a direct claim on profits that are made from the investments in the university endowment but the university grows and becomes a better place and becomes a higher salaries professors get paid more scholarships are handed out to larger degrees the more money that the endowment makes however again no Professor has any claim on profits that are made from the the university endowment and so I encourage you to think of your biotech Dao and the money that it's making and the treasury that it has like a university endowment and the structure of the Dow as a non-profit structured almost like a university and then later with our ipn ft 2.0 protocol and the fractionalization that comes with that into friends and fam tokens which we can talk about at dinner tonight um you you what you do is you have a really interesting system whereby the token holders of your doubt don't just have the ability to vote in snapshot on governance proposals which is like you know step one of Doubt participation and that's about as far as many dials get unless they have this monologue style rage quid function what you have with IP nfts and their fractions is the ability to drive value to token holders and allow them to accumulate portions of the IP and portions of the treasury assets direct exposure to interesting projects that they want to co-govern um and you know if they kyc in a credit that they want to co-own yeah okay thank you just make listening and final announcements uh wait don't disconnect I put on top of the document so tonight in my in partnership with molecule fourth age is foresight is the hosting a decide dinner at tiatro repeal and so we invite you all to join and continue this discussion I've put the uh perfect thanks um otherwise the link is at the top of the document I put it just under the agenda on in the Google Doc you can directly click there and register and join you join us that's it pause thank you so much yeah a massive thank you for everyone um that participated here I think we had some really really cool exciting insights come out of this uh you all have the shared talk um what we'll try to do maybe from outside is like maybe collate this into like a blog post of sorts or just a maybe a Twitter thread um to share it with the community if you want to be tagged in it please feel free to put your Twitter handle into the doc um yeah and uh look forward to maybe seeing some of you at the dinner tonight and remember build uh build Lego blocks build railroads build roads that other people can use and that can cross integrate uh into the community because we still have such a big opportunity here to set those Railways for everyone to um yeah to interoperate which is what open signs and decide should all be about thank you so much thing