# BBW25 - Day 2 - Fireside Chat: Inside a Diversified Digital Asset Treasury - Channel: [Boston Blockchain Week](https://streameth.org/boston-blockchain-week) - Date: 2025-10-07 - Duration: 32:10 - Watch: https://streameth.org/watch/yt-T5AbuY0aJFw - YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5AbuY0aJFw ## Description Boston Blockchain Week 2025 - Day 2 Wednesday, September 10, 2025 Fireside Chat + Q&A: “Inside a Diversified Digital Asset Treasury” Florent Thévenin, Founder & CEO of Canada's first blockchain-focused media company interviews Sebastian Bea, Chief Investment Officer of ReserveOne, a soon to be, publicly traded digital asset company offering investors access to a multi-asset portfolio. Drawing on his leadership experience at Coinbase Asset Management, One River Digital, and BlackRock, and the discipline he gained as a former Olympian rower, Sebastian offers insider insights into constructing and overseeing a diverse digital asset company. Discussion will cover why a diversified DAT matters now, the growing dominance of select altcoins, and how institutions navigate SEC oversight while seizing emerging opportunities. • Sebastian Bea, Chief Investment Officer, ReserveOne • Florent Thévenin, Founder & CEO, Blockchain North (moderator) ## Transcript interviews with folks along the way. And today uh one of the founders of Blockchain North, Florent, also known as Flo Tevin, is going to lead a discussion with Sebastian Bea, who's the chief investment officer of Reserve One. They're going to have a discussion around uh diversified digital asset treasuries. So, please join me in welcoming them to the stage. [Music] Hello Boston. >> How's everyone doing? >> Good. Can we give a shout out to the organizers for such a cool event here in Boston? >> Yes. Welld deserved, I'd say. So, my name is Florenta. I'm the founder and CEO of Blockchain North uh and BN Creatives. We are Canada's media and marketing champions for the digital asset space. You might have seen our booth outside. Come and say hi if you haven't already. Um I'm really excited to be back in Boston. Last time I came was at the end of November and it was colder than in Montreal where I'm based. So it's been a real uh pleasure to be here this time uh at the end of the summer. Um so today I'm going to be moderating a fireside chat and Q&A. So we'll leave a little bit of time during these 30 minutes to uh ask questions if you have them. Uh the topic is inside a diversified digital asset uh treasury. Obviously a big trend right now in the crypto space. So very unique opportunity to hear directly from one of the builders of such a DAT as you call them or DAT. Uh today his name is Sebastian Bay right next to me. Uh he's the CIO of Reserve One. I'll let him introduce the company to you in a moment. But uh quick introduction to Sebastian himself. Um a lot of experience. He draws on the leadership roles at uh Coinbase Asset Management, One River Digital as well as Black Rockck. So both Trati and DeFi. Um and also he was an Olympian rower. Uh the first thing I told him when I saw him is I didn't realize how tall he was. Otherwise I would have worn heels today maybe. Luckily we're sitting down so no problem. Um yeah. So anyway, let's get started right away. Sebastian, welcome to you. Welcome to Boston. Um why don't you help us set the stage a little bit? What's the broader macro context during which we're having this conversation right now? I'm thinking about so many things, but I'm going to let you run with your own perception right now. >> Sure. The the macro context for crypto is is really as powerful as it's ever been. Um and and let me explain that in to be precise. So at at the high level, we're likely to see two major factors come together at the same time that could probably drive one of the most interesting market cycles we've seen in crypto to date. Um what I mean by that specifically is that we are in front of probably a rate cutting cycle here in the US. There's we'll talk about that more in a bit and we're in the midst of first time uh legislation and regulation for crypto. both of these things happening in the same quarter potentially um is something we've just never seen. And in my in my investment history um you kind of you learn lessons the the best lessons are learned the hard way. Someone tells you you did something wrong and you learn from it. Um and my best example of that is when I learned to look for something that I'd never seen before. Um, I'd been uh pitching a guy named John Burbank who ran a hedge fund called Passport uh that's dating me. But uh they were famous because they would go all all around the world looking for things that they had never seen before. And I said, "Hey, I was at CS at the time and I said, "John, why don't we do enough business? Why don't we do more business with you?" And he said, "Sbastian, you've never shown me something I've never seen before. Show me something that you've you've never seen before and maybe you can be in our top four." So we went back um grabbed the thematic team and eventually we earned that right. Um so I think about right now where we are in September, right? Um the the the FOMC or the Federal Open Market Committee is meeting on the 16th and 17th of this month. They are going to in you know the the market is already pricing a 25 basis point cut. Um and that was before what happened yesterday, right? What had happened yesterday? Well, it turns out there's about a million jobs that didn't happen last year, give or take, based on the BLS provisions. So, if the Fed is indeed data dependent, well, it turns out that this economy has not been as good as we thought it was for jobs. Um, and then perhaps rates are too high and restrictive and are actually hurting one of the key variables the Fed is targeting. So, that's one of the key to be a little bit longwinded, that's one of the key things that's happening right now. Now put next to that what's also happening on the regulatory side for crypto. The reason we didn't have regulatory clarity is we didn't have legislation. People forget that in general if you have something new you need to write a law first before the regulators can write rules. So when crypto is complaining about not having good regulation or clear regulation what we were actually also saying is we don't have laws and if regulators don't have laws it's really tough for them to write rules. So now what do we have? We have Genius, which is now the law of the land. We now have legal programmable money. Rules are coming. And now Clarity, which is the the market structure bill that's currently in the Senate, slowing down a little bit. But, you know, even even yesterday, the Democrats wrote a a well-written six-page document basically stating where they think things need to go, which means we actually have bipartisan action to get clarity done. So you back up and look at the macro context that we have to recognize that we we are seeing two really big important things for crypto happening at the same time. We're likely entering a rate cutting cycle, right? And at the same time, we're likely to be sealing a very positive legis legislative and regulatory um perimeter, not perimeter, but um framework for the digital asset space. And both of these things are happening at the same time and that is something we've never seen before and that's why we all have to pay attention. >> And of course there's a lot more happening than that but that's a great introduction. So in that context could you maybe define for us what a digital asset treasury is considering we have other investment vehicles like ETFs for example. So why do we need DATs or DET? >> Sure. Um and uh raise your hand if you've worked in ETFs. Anybody? Okay. I'll raise my hand too. I I worked in eyeshares. Very good. Okay, ETFs are fantastic vehicles, right? Um, and they're well regulated, but they also come with constraints. Um, and so the view very simply is that an ETF is great, but in most cases, a DAT can be better. A digital asset treasury can be better. Why? because principally the flexibility that you get in a permanent capital vehicle as opposed to an ETF which is uh you know essentially a vehicle that demands liquidity on an ondemand basis. You know IBIT is a phenomenal product but Bitcoin is coming and going every day right um if you want to take your Ethereum and deploy it and do other things beyond just staking it's going to be very difficult to do that ever in an ETF. If you want to engage with DeFi, which still is difficult today as an institutional player, but the SEC is telling you to try, um, that's going to be very difficult or impossible to do in ETFs. Digital asset treasuries are companies that have what we believe to be a the optimal setup to get the most out of digital assets if you want to be invested for the long term. And our suggestion is is that you do. >> And so, who is your target market specifically as a company? And we'll talk about your company specifically, too. >> Sure. Uh, look, I think for for us in particular, what we're finding as we're building our business and we're in the midst of um, you know, we've announced our business combination, so we're expected to list in Q4 on NASDAQ um, uh, under the ticker RE for about a billion dollars. Um, but we look at the mix of what we're doing between uh, a diversified allocation, a activating the assets, and also an opportunity to invest in VC. We're really a good fit for uh high netw worth individuals um and adviserss who are looking for a one-stop shop for their clients where they just want to get the big cap liquid assets in a market cap basis with you know the right sort of activation NVC where it makes sense. That's for us. Um other dats are going in a different direction maybe deeper in a particular asset and I think there's definitely a time and place for that as well. Um but if you look at the if you look at the structure of particularly the US equity the the US um uh investor market it's heavily intermediated. We have you know the advisor network is a big driver of how capital gets to the market and in general advisers really want their clients to be diversified. >> So that's what we're doing. One of the unique uh characteristics of reserve one is that you've chosen to be a diversified uh asset treasury. Could you tell us why? What's the thesis and perhaps talk a bit about the dominance between Bitcoin and altcoins from your point of view? >> Sure. Well, some of the background actually comes from the creation of the of the idea. Um so, uh let's see. Raise your hand if you know who Wilbur Ross is. Yeah. Okay, there we go. All right. So, so Wilbur Ross is expected to be on our on our board as a vice chair. Um, and uh the the backer of of our group is an is a gentleman named uh uh Chin Chu who was a former head of private equity at at Blackstone. True American story. Came here as a refugee when he was 11 and uh turned himself into a multi-billionaire. Um but Chin and and Wilbur in particular were talking and said, "Look, the time is now to get into crypto." And and that's how Jamie Leverton and I got involved. Um because there's there was an idea to do something more institutional, more diversified, and it really reflected who we were, right? What we wanted to do, what what we thought the the gap in the market was. Um and we we you know, it we think it's the the time is right for this now. Maybe it's a little it was a little early six months ago. Um but if you look at the market cycle that we're in, you know, Bitcoin dominance topped out very recently around 60%. Right? We've had like a five-year bull run in Bitcoin dominance, give or take. Um, and now Bitcoin dominance is starting to come under pressure, right? Does that mean I'm bullish or bearish on on Bitcoin? Like, absolutely not. My long-term forecast for Bitcoin is somewhere between 850K and a million. And this cycle, I think it can easily be 250K. And I'm really conservative, and I think that that those are easy numbers to get to, and I can walk you through if you'd like. Uh, but I'm even more bullish on what's going to what I think is likely to happen for Ethereum and Salana in particular because what are we what did I just walk through earlier in the macro context? We're still waiting for clarity to get passed. We we're still waiting for clarity on how we can or can't use DeFi, right? There are big unanswered questions that are going to get answered one way or the other. And then after that they will they're likely to unlock demand for these networks that doesn't exist right now. Like imagine you use Amazon right and you buy you most of all of us do one way or the other but imagine you wanted to buy some Amazon web credits you know in advance and then uh one day the SEC comes in and says actually that web credit is an unregistered security and you can't use that that that asset to access that network. Well, then you felt like Polygon, right? Because Polygon goes, "Oh, like so I think it was like weeks after Starbucks announced their next generation, you know, uh, loyalty platform was going to be on Polygon and then the SEC comes in and says, "Yeah, that's that's that's an illegal security, right?" Well, who's going to what corporate in the US was going to build on any of these blockchain networks with the SEC taking that sort of stance? The answer is basically no one. So what does that mean for demand for block space on these networks? Well, basically zero, right? So now we're undoing that and we're undoing that at like an incredibly rapid pace. >> So So as much as the blockchain fundamentals are are, you know, in many ways still not that great today, if you look at like what transaction fees actually are on Ethereum or Salana in particular, we are in front of the unlocking of the act of these networks actually being useful, right? So then you bring it back to our portfolio context. Yeah, I I'd want to be long that, right? And I think our inves I think our investors will want to be long that. Um and I think it's not complex to say that you should be long Bitcoin because of various macro reasons, but you should also be long things like um like uh like Salana, like like Ethereum, like even Cardano, >> you know, underappreciated and it's in the self-help mode it if they really I mean there's a lot of things that could go right that maybe aren't priced in. which is to say nobody has a crystal ball and that's why gener in in general in our regular portfolios we're diversified so why not here >> nobody has a crystal ball but it's great to get two price predictions without even asking for them so that's awesome and you mentioned Ethereum and Solana and for those who don't know Friday and Saturday there's ETH Boston and Solana Boston I forget in which order um we're going to take questions very shortly I do want to ask maybe a bit of a personal question so you have a background in in trfy before moving to Coinbase asset management and you're also an Olympic roar He I I said to him in the in our prep, I said, "Oh, you're former Olympian rower." He was like, "Once an Olympian, always an Olympian." But that's a unique >> Except for Except for Lance. Being for drug testing, you're you're a former Olympian. Sorry. >> Except for Lance. Um what do you draw from your experience in either Tratfi or uh in in uh in sports basically and uh you know to build something that you know is obviously quite difficult to build uh in a context that's fast moving with a lot of you know macro context to uh to take into action as well. Um I I think the Olympic experience was useful because it it's similar in the sense that look, it's really stressful right now. If you're in if you're um build trying to build one of these businesses as we are right now, you're looking at uh a capital markets environment where there's been 200 of these companies floated over the last six months or something like that. Uh that doesn't sound like that's necessary strictly for capital formation. Um, so we have a I think it's it this is a period where you have to say, well, why why should we succeed, right? There's a lot of competition. Sounds pretty hard. >> Why should you? >> Yeah. Right. Well, and if you and if you obsess over that, you can really find yourself in a tough place. You know, my my path to the Olympics and and to the to the medal stand was really difficult. Like I literally got pul carried off a plane because I had a back spasm when we arrived in Sydney. And I didn't even think I was going to compete. Um, we're doing better than that here. Uh, but >> back spasms right now. >> No, no, I'm I'm I'm fine. Uh, don't ask me to row though. Um, no, look, I think there's a lot of competition, but the the lesson I pulled I I took away from rowing was you have to stay in your own boat >> and really work well with your team even when you're under a lot of stress. I haven't been perfect in the last month or so. It's been real tough. Um but but that experience definitely helps me every day to just, you know, pick up the ore, get back in the boat, keep keep pulling, and every day we end up a little further down a course. >> Yeah. And keep breathing. I suppose that's probably a big part of rowing as well. Um we're at the halfway mark and I'm just wondering if there are already any questions because ultimately this is all about Look at that. Uh sir, thanks. >> You know, Sebastian, you said thank you very much by the way. Um you said that there were um 200 of these companies roughly that are out there. Do you expect to trade at a premium to the portfolio value and uh also do you expect to be able to make sufficient revenue to cover your operating costs from DeFi, from staking, from all of these other things? >> Sure. Uh I think what the market will do is the market will price companies at a premium if they're able to generate a positive expected return on their assets. That's definitely the expectation that we are going after with our business. Um in the in the period when we were marketing our transaction, we talked and this is also in the materials that we do intend to activate our assets to seek excess return and so we're we're seeking to generate a positive return after fees all co and costs in our business. Um, do I think that a lot of these businesses will start to trade at a discount to NAV as well actually a lot of them already are and is that going to draw some difficult questions? Absolutely. Um, we've already stated that we expect that there will likely be consolidation in the space. Um, and we think we welcome that in the end. Um, if you look at and I I just actually was at the uh HCW conference where Michael Sailor made a presentation. I think may have been webcast. It was it was really well done. Um he's trying to deliver a very specific thing and we're not trying to compete with that. Right? So think of it this way. He is trying to enhance the equity return with leverage um with through the various vehicles. Our goal is to generate uh excess returns to the equity by deploying the assets directly. Right? So it's a different approach. Um and I'm I'm actually personally comfortable with his approach in some ways. I'm also comfortable with my approach. I think either either of those approaches can can demand a a premium to NAV. I think some of the things that drove a premium to NAV in the past are starting to dissipate, right? One, we had all sorts of impediments that you know are this some are still there, some are but some are going away. Um, and so I think that in general you're going to see a compression of some of these extreme uh premiums in NAB that don't make a lot of sense. I think good businesses in general should be able to trade a slight premium to NAB just like just like good banks can trade a slight premium to their to their book. >> There are a few more questions, so I'm going to go to the left there. Yes, sir. Um along the lines of uh Michael Sailor and what he did at Strategy, um would you call them kind of a digital asset treasury company at this point? Have they come into this space sort of a different way than others because of the start that they got? And do you think other companies might start to follow the process of becoming sort of a digital asset treasury or having subsidiaries that do that as well to add value? >> Um so so Micro Strategy actually wasn't the first The first was arguably HUD 8 because it was Jamie Leverton who is my CEO. Uh she was at HUD 8 when I was at Coinbase. Uh and we were we're the reason that Coinbase made its first ever loan to a to a minor. But but that's okay. That's okay. It's not well known. Uh but but Hutate was the first company actually to say well that we're going to buy Bitcoin in this case mine Bitcoin but we're going to keep it on our balance sheet. We're not going to sell it. And so they were the first company to come up with this with a huddle strategy which is what Michael Sailor is doing. Michael Sailor strategy is what strategy is. Subsequently the industry has has come up with this term digital asset treasuries. I mean strategy strategy do is it a digital asset treasury? I think so. Right. But but they are are they doing it in a slightly different way than others are probably going to do it? Yes. Right. Other question do we think other companies are going to hold digital assets? Um, yeah. I mean, look, it's a it's it's a it's a well-known and unfortunate reality that many many companies have actually held Bitcoin for quite some time because uh if you were a hospital chain, right, you had a you had a Coinbase account for all the wrong reasons because of because you were going to be you were afraid of getting ransomed, right? Um that's not a great entry into the product. I will more do it. We'll see. Um, you know, I think my I've been uh I I think we're going to see more people, more companies embrace Bitcoin when its usage in the economy changes. Right now, it is only being treated in the US as a as a store of of value and not a currency because of tax law, right? Actually, I don't know if you know this, but if you have three 200 bucks worth of pounds and you use it, that's not taxable today, right? And it's up to a certain amount. We actually have a provision that says if you've if if the if you use your foreign currency and it's appreciated, you don't have a there's a there's a bar under which it's not a taxable event. Senator Lumis in early July put forward a bill that said, "Hey, if you use your Bitcoin for small dollar transactions and it is uh under $300 on a individual transaction and cumitively under $5,000 for the year, it's not a capital gains event. This is a huge deal and this is it's a long answer to your question but it's it's really important. Nobody's going to be using Bitcoin as a currency generally speaking and major economies G7 etc. until we change tax law right are we going to change tax law? I don't know like I think it's going to be tough. So then ultimately the the driver of that behavior of some corporates putting Bitcoin on the balance sheet is just a view that they are concerned about debt fiscal restraint lack thereof inflation policies and they just want to own some Bitcoin because it they think it'll probably perform well relative to their other treasury assets. >> I think we had another question there. This is great by the way. Thank you for doing my job. >> So you had mentioned 250k for BTC, right? Yes. And we're currently at a $4 trillion market cap. So what do you suspect the total market cap will be if we were to hit 250k? >> I don't think it's a 4 trillion. Can we get Can we Can I phone a friend? Two trillion. Yeah. >> 4 trillion. Total market. >> Total market. Yes. Yes. >> So if we have 50% uh BTC dominance, are we looking at a possible Q1 Q2 of 2026 for an extension because of the times ticking in >> What do you mean? I'm sorry. I'm missing the question. The question is about timing of of of where we get when when we achieve my hopeful level in this cycle. Yeah, because we typically have the four-year cycles and we usually have blowoff tops between Q3 or Q4 of this year, but because everything seems to >> Well, I don't make forecasts, but I did post on Twitter today to remind all of you that um October in crypto is called October because uh in the last 10 years, Bitcoin has averaged over a 22% return in October. I still think we're in a bull run. I'll get to your question. I still think we're in a bull run, but I think that especially right now, I'm pretty bullish short term because we got we got the Fed in front of us. We've got seasonality right after it. Um I think we can start to think about approaching some of these targets really fast. Tom Lee was talking about getting Bitcoin to 200,000 by the end of the year. I don't think that I don't think that that's outrageous because just to back up, look, we we're playing around in a space that's really important but really small still today, right? Um the global capital markets are massive and they have a lot of behaviors that some of us know well which is if it's up it probably goes up till the end of the year. And what do we we have a good year now for equities? We are starting to uh price in the beginning of a rate cutting cycle. Tech is starting to move really fast even today. Um what does that mean for things like Bitcoin? It's likely we could see a huge run in Bitcoin over the next six to 12 months. Now is it Q1 or Q2? I don't know. I think I think that this famous last words but this cycle is different right um and it's different because of you know like like the the the the happening is really not as material as it used to be like it used to be a huge change in like how much Bitcoin was coming to market like it doesn't matter in comparison to like Fidelity and I Black Rockck iShares ETF flows right Um, and it doesn't I don't think it's really going to matter in comparison to some of these big regulatory changes that are coming. >> We only have five minutes left, so I'm going to reclaim my role just for a moment and I want to ask you maybe a couple of quickfired uh questions. Uh, still talking about the the future here. So, the first one is tongue and cheek. I got to warn and we didn't really prepare that one, but it just came to my mind yesterday. What's going to happen first in the United States? the collapse of an ETF, a crypto ETF of course, or a federal CBDC? >> Well, there will never be a federal CBDC. So, that's easy. And >> so, how does the ETF collapse? >> Yeah. So, play out >> like Let me talk about the CBC. Uh, the Republicans don't want it. They're going to fight it tooth and nail. Some Democrats think they want it. Many Democrats do not want it. and and both of those opinions don't matter that much because we really can't get anything done like like that. Okay, number one, here's another reason why the CBDC is not going to happen. Because our regulators love our banking igopoly, right? Why? Because just like the Canadians like it, just like the Australians like it, because they can basically get five to se to to eight people in a room and say, "I'm mad about this. Fix it." Right? And they can do that in Canada, they can do that in the US, and they can do that in Australia. And that starts to blow apart with the CBDC. And let me explain why. So right now the way um banks or so the way the US money system works right is you have the Fed and you got and then you have the commercial banks right and we have depositors right well so the problem so depositors put their money in the banks at least for now stable coins could blow this all up but if if we were to create a CBDC would you rather hold your money at JP Morgan who pays you nothing or hold your money literally at the Fed where there's zero zero counterparty risk. Well, like in every sort of market crisis, then money would just flow out of Bank of America, Wells, JP Morgan, straight to the Fed. And what what is the what is the impact of that for the economy? It's a credit crunch, right? And why? Because the banks are using those deposits to fund loans. And if all the money is now flowing out of the banks up to the Fed, right, well then then they're not then we're just going to have a credit crunch at the worst time. So this is why a CBC is never going to happen because it would CBDC would literally blow up how we presently uh fund uh create credit in our economy. >> Yeah. Just quickly, uh an ETF collapse, how would that play out in 30 seconds? I I don't see how ETFs I mean ETFs are so boring and they work so well. I mean the ETFs that have collapsed have that in the current trady market have generally been around bad construction with volatility right there was the I think credit Swiss had an ETN around short V and that blew up actually right um it's hard it's hard to see uh how I mean look someone will do something too creative um but generally speaking things blow up when there's too much too much debt too much leverage um and so it's some sort of silly levered product. But but you know in general like like I think that the crypto systems have shown shown that they're a bit more resilient to engaging with leverage with high volatile assets like we like if you look at how you know a has performed >> versus or maker like versus like banks. I mean there's no comparison under stress. >> Another cheeky one and then we'll wrap up. Um, who's more powerful in the world today, Elon Musk or Satoshi Nakamoto? >> They're not the same person, right? >> That was a follow-up question. Or are they one and the same? >> Um, look, uh, I ideas are very powerful, >> right? Like ideas are super powerful. >> Elon does have ideas >> and idea. Yeah. And Elon has some pretty powerful ideas. Um, but I would argue I would argue Satoshi's probably more powerful than than Elon in the sense that, you know, the the core principle of Bitcoin is to separate money from state. And, you know, Elon still works for the government pretty much, >> right? Um, and so he's trying to make things better for this government and this country. And I think he should be applauded for it in general. is not without controversy, but it's a more powerful statement to say, I would like to remove the ability of a state to control the money >> because when you do that, you actually you deeply erode the ability of a country to wage war, right? You can't print bonds to to to to to send bombs. Um, and I think in the end it it's a it's a more powerful idea. Um and something that I think you know could could create a lot of peace and and change. >> We have one minute left. Um any any final thoughts to share with our audience today? Any any other future predictions or or high conviction, you know, thoughts to share with our um with our audience today, especially if they're maybe somewhat contrarian to the public narrative right now. >> Well, I just I I talked about on on uh our video. I don't know if it came out, but I I think what's happening in stable coins is actually one of the most interesting things we've ever seen in any financial market segment. I mean, I like it. Stable coins on the negative could disrupt uh the banking system and we could have a credit crisis next year easily. Why? Because why would you hold your money at JP Morgan getting 0%. If you can take your money, put it in USDC, regulated, 100% reserved, and Coinbase is going to pay you somewhere between 1 to 4%. Like, it's safer, it's better, and it pays you more. Why would you have your money in a bank? No one has a good answer for that. Everyone's going to be asking themselves that question. So, I think stable coins are really important on that on that note. Um and I think the other thing is you know if you go back to the internet we had like AOL and Prodigy and and Minel in France and then we had the internet right now we have Salana and Ethereum but now we have Circle Arc Tempo um uh Tether Stable like we're building now in 2025 these entities are coming out and saying no no no I want to build a stable coin chain a corp chain and that's fascinating from a historical technology perspective because that does that is very different than before, right? We we started closed corporate and we went open. Now we have open and these guys in 2025 are trying to go clos corporate and they're doing it because they think that stable coins could be that big. That's the that's the market signal I think I I'm seeing there. So my takeaway is pay attention to stable coins. The money in the United States is not good enough. We never got to Fed now. Now we're fixing it with stable coins. But the implications of it could be absolutely massive, generally positive, but not necessarily all all the way through. So, I think it'll be a little bumpy if we don't get this credit transition right. >> Pay attention to stable coins. Thank you very much, Sebastian. We're running out of time. >> Thanks, everyone. >> All right, ladies and gentlemen. We're going to do a quick flip of stage and then we'll be right back with you in about 30 seconds. Thank you.