# Panel: Bridges to...Somewhere? (Devcon5)

- Channel: [Devcon](https://streameth.org/devcon)
- Date: 2020-10-09
- Duration: 40:30
- Topics: blockchain, smart contracts, distributed ledger, ethereum
- Watch: https://streameth.org/watch/yt-Z-LNbnfDHfk
- YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-LNbnfDHfk

## Description

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https://archive.devcon.org/archive/watch/5/bridges-tosomewhere

Interoperability

Speaker(s): James Prestwich, Brian Behlendorf, Justin Drake, Joseph Schweitzer
Skill level: Intermediate
Track: Society and Systems
Keywords: interoperability, technical

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Devcon is the Ethereum conference for developers, researchers, thinkers, and makers. 
Devcon 5 was held in Osaka, Japan on Oct 8 - 11, 2019.
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## Transcript

many different roads to go down hyper ledger is working of course with enterprise and we have gems can speak a little bit to blockchain agnosticism and Justin of course to east to in the general aetherium roadmap but I'll give everybody a moment to introduce themselves beginning with Brian okay i'm brian behlendorf i'm executive director of hyper ledger which is a project embedded inside the Linux Foundation which has been around for about 16 years and we're all about trying to fear on how do you make open source projects that deal with plumbing with infrastructure sustainable by building not only communities of developers around it but communities of corporations that realize enough value just enough value that they realize they need to feedback in and make this kind of flywheel go whether it's operating systems or cloud computing or blockchain technology and it's kind of where high pressure comes from ok my name is James Prestwich I'm a co-founder at Summa we work on cross chain interoperability particularly between aetherium Bitcoin and other chains that weren't designed for this typically we're trying to hack in interoperability where it wasn't meant to go I'm Justin Drake research I determine foundation I mostly focus on the theorem 2.0 all layers of the design and one of these is the like client and how friendly we are to others - ok so to kick things off a little bit of I think it is important to understand where everybody is looking into the near future to then figure out what needs to be done for us to work a little more closely together at least to communicate with one another so to Brian to educate folks here who may be more familiar with youth to but less familiar with a where hyper ledger is headed can you chat about the grand vision so four years ago alright aetherium was still kind of a road map a plan it was before the ICO Bitcoin had arguably taken off and been interesting and enterprises were starting to pay attention to it but had a lot of concerns right partly the regulatory bit partly proof-of-work partly like this sense of where is this technology coming from and so a lot of us it sounded very familiar right it sounded a little bit like 1998 when the term open source' was kind of defined and but but even like the years before that we're projects that were built by communities of developers working together actually is how we got the internet it's how we got SMTP and DNS and HTTP and those kinds of things and so I the Linux Foundation had started to hear from different parties both big corporations but also companies like block stream and even consensus and others that there was something interesting here's something very vital something that builds upon history a history of distributed systems that goes back a couple of decades right but had a fresh take on it and it was worth trying to figure out where can we meet up between enterprises that have problems not so much with programmable money partly with decentralization you know this moved to the cloud and a move to kind of two or three providers is great if you're a shareholder into one of those two or three but kind of lousy for every other enterprise right so so where could we meet that up and really it was started with that idea and a bunch of the companies that came together kind of pooled some projects they had been working on some code from IBM that they had called initially internally open blockchain and then we was called fabric code from Intel that was kind of an R&D platform called sawtooth and code from some other places like digital asset and it was kind of like let's put this in a pot let's actually because everyone's concerned about tokens and anti cos and things like that let's kind of distance ourselves a bit from it not from tokenization as an approach to kind of doing digital assets but from the proof of work kind of it and from kind of the speculative financial instrument kind of bit of it and let's just see are there other use cases to apply this to from the way that that banks send payments to each other to supply chain traceability to all sorts of things and so that initial body of code didn't include anything in the etherion space but when I joined in May of 2016 the project was kind of launched 2015 may of 2016 one of my first trips abroad was to DEFCON 2 in Shanghai and I've been following the etherion space I actually a vitalik in motion when they did the roadshow for the original ICO and I was like there's something important here there's something urgent here and there's certainly this kind of enthusiasm from the community that I hadn't seen since the early days of the web so I always felt like we needed to have some sort of relations some sort of bridge and and while we built up this ecosystem around fabric and around sawtooth and saw that start to get used in production systems I realized what we were also doing was educating the market educating the enterprise world on what really blockchain technology could be right even if we were having them take these kind of baby steps forward into just building a partially distributed systems some sort of minimum viable centralization right was was kind of built into all these networks now fabric is in a lot of different places right but it was still very clear that we couldn't we couldn't just be about fabric we couldn't just be about one technology one core it had to be about a family of technologies and so now in 2019 the kind of vision around hyper ledger is can we be that that ground that explores that entire spectrum from permission to permission list blockchain technology whether it's down in the weeds at the protocol layer at the at the government you know how do you forge these DL T's - what are the different smart contract engines there - the Crypt Dog cryptography layers kryptos cryptography - all the way up to end user interfaces - the Explorers - the kind of apps and those sorts of things and really focusing on how do we get all the enterprises in the world to adopt this and take this for granted the way that all of you take plumbing for granted you know that you turn the spigot and you get hot water right and that's a multi-pronged effort that's going to evolve a lot of things now though we have a lot of new firepower from this community on our side with a hyper ledger Daisy project which started just over a month ago another project called Avalon that builds off of the trusted computing work from Enterprise aetherium Alliance and and it's really exciting and I think that for the next year our focus had Piper Ledger's going to be in kind of hybridizing and synthesizing all these different pieces we brought together to take advantage of all the really smart people and all the really smart architectures that have been poured into this body of code gotcha thank you very much so - Justin a bit of a brief overview serenity has been something that everybody's been waiting for since the the names were sort of released with our tests not Olympic than frontier homestead metropolis and surrounding it's changed forms many times but now we are just months away from phase zero the design framework is very clear could you speak a little bit to what the grand vision looks like both for permission lists for scalability privacy-preserving elements phase 2 and beyond a little bit about serenity is an overview for those who are who may not be as familiar okay I guess in the context of interoperability the the big thing that we the big thing in serenity is shouting right and here is the idea that you have multiple block chains and they're kind of homogeneous and so the idea is to try and even though we have this a synchronous communication between the various charts for scalability this we're trying to minimize the cost by having these these fast cross links between them that share all the crypto shell and networking and share consensus yeah I mean the other part and in terms of interrupt interoperability for for if to is you know to be a very good player in the ecosystem arguably if one is not friendly to enter polity like our proof of work is it's kind of hard to to be verified on another blockchains and we've we've made all sorts of research to one make the cost from a bandwidth perspective as small as possible but also the computational cost as small as possible and one of the and that's one of the things that's unlocked for proof of stake which is the other big component of serenity and just in just to summarize how our strategy here is basically to to use committees so we have this large number of validators let's say a million validators we have an honesty assumption we assume for example that two thirds are honest or one half honest we sample using randomness a much smaller committee and then we ask this committee okay can you attest to where the affirm system is at right now and so it suffices for another block to just verify this at the stations and one of the the big tools that we're using here is BLS aggregation and so if every ancestor is signing to the same message you have this really nice aggregation which makes verifying these as a stations extremely cheap so we're at a point now where running and if to light clients is probably cheaper it's cheaper than running a Bitcoin client judgment ok so now I'm going to kick - James we see this kind of rounding out right so hyper ledger began as a Brian said minimally viable centralized nature were spread out over the spectrum to sort of see what works with eath - we have the grand vision but of course still having a large ecosystem creating some subset of standards that work together regardless of where they're implemented can you speak a bit to the work that's been done that you've worked on through both Summa ideas and Development Research is taking place through TUSD and so on and so forth sorry TBT see so you know we're hyper ledger kind of explores the trade-off space and hasn't decided you know where it fits it's trying to serve as many purposes as possible and help other people go east to is trying to build this homogenous and unified ecosystem Summa rather than trying to make every chain the same rather than trying to explore as much of the trade-off space as possible we're trying to take all of the chains that exist that have users today and turn them into a unified heterogeneous ecosystem so take Bitcoin and aetherium and cosmos and ensure that those can all interoperate together and provide tools to private chains like hyper ledger projects to interoperate with public chains efficiently so we're kind of at a slightly different point in the trade-off space than if - we're trying to be everywhere take everything that's different and bring it in so that it can all work together I'm gonna follow I'm sorry go Jessica just pull up here this this kind a spectrum of friction and variance so there's like a single chain where basically the friction is kind of synchronous you know cross contract communication that's the low as bare as you entry but still still there is some friction and this is why we have standards like ELC 20 and then kind of the next layer of friction is homogeneous shouting and then the next layer of friction is if you think for example of polka dots where they have a unified unification that the consensus layer but they have non-homogeneous Peres chains yes and then the next step is things like by cosmos and Summa so this is actually a great transition here the public projects have become to have have began to over time emulate each other a little bit more and I think that this is somewhat true as well for some of the hydrologic projects I don't believe it was intended they've just seemed to have found the same design framework as having generally represented a correct answer in some sense have you seen you mentioned one large coming project in the space cosmos as well polka dot cosmos somebody spoke backstage to work that I which Kay has done also in a similar area and of course east to z through is now working within a framework of homogeneous rather than the heterogeneous but still the same approach so I shall run back to Brian with this so to sort of round it out what our enterprise is looking for in obviously looking back to the base question of why not use a server there are certain things that black chains offer right and a lot of that is the openness the permission lessness it's just doing it with the same level of the same feature set the same capability throughput what our enterprise is looking for specifically that permissionless systems haven't offered and do they see answers in these design frameworks so Joe actually was your just before our session talking about his view that you know the world will have lots of different Ledger's some of them very public facing and some of them fairly private amongst collections of organizations right and and that's for a number of reasons some of them technical some of them kind of business oriented the one the the answer the the technical reasons may fade over time I mean right now I'd say there's an advantage to permission villagers which actually can be public facing for example the sovereign foundation is using hyper ledger indeed to build a public facing but permissioned blockchain ledger around digital identity right and there's all sorts of things in India that are highly tuned to the pairwise identifier approach that they take that from everything from the consensus mechanism to the data structure on disk to to everything but uh but so there's some performance characteristics that perhaps they have to architecture perhaps other architectures that arrived close the gap on some of those from performance and and and other kind of points of view but I think there's still going to be some business constraints so for example being able to say that all the nodes on this network agree to be bound by GDP are right or agree to be bound by saying hey we're going to put text on this network that for the purpose of efficiency we're going to begin crypt minimally and if you try to decrypt it or you try to discover some data that you're not supposed to have access to then there's a legal constraint that kind of constrains you it that you assign a contract and agree I'm not going to divulge this data right or or other types of business arrangements that are actually better to express in human contract form between the parties around some common kind of a kind of governance entity than then through purely through smart contract mechanisms again those might fade away as some of the ability to manage confidential data and things get better and better on the public Ledger's but but there's a there's a spectrum here there's trade-offs and I think we are going to see this heterogeneous world of public of unpermitted and permissioned of public facing and private facing blockchains you're kind of two independent dimensions for for the indefinite teacher I don't know that that ever converges on one so a question for both James and Justin - James first interoperability with private chains or permission chains is it is it functionally viable is it ooh a road or are there constraints there you know typically the way interoperability works is that we have one chain checking the consensus process of another so when you want to have aetherium inspect Bitcoin transactions you have to actually import Bitcoin headers into a smart contract so obviously we can do that within a private chain validate a public change consensus that's like trivially easy to do the other way around we can't really do with any sort of security for a permission chain the consensus mechanism is usually a federation of signers that can do whatever they want and so validating that on a public chain has essentially the same security model as an Oracle is we're importing you know information about this chain but we're just trusting the signers to do it so this may be useful in some cases but I would suspect that we see it as a one-way road most of the time ok I have the following for Justin was sort of similar I don't know if it's a solution in any sense but I've heard the idea kicked around a little bit of using execution environments to in this is far off in the future I understand and that research is nowhere near done but it there was an idea and if you could speak to a little bit about it maybe slotting those in for some of these larger you know permission pieces I think it was a fatality mentioned in a panel not that long ago the use of it I guess the question is about use of potential use of execution environments to help bridge that gap and he could you speak again I guess first to execution environments themselves so those who are less familiar with them and to about their potential capability right so execution environments are kind of a layer of abstraction which allows anyone to kind of graft the business logic on top of the consensus but in a much more low-level way than a small contractor so you can even like think of it as programming your own VM and you don't have the overhead of the VM as a starting point and I guess this could be helpful in the context of private change that have a roadmap to become more and more public over time and as you mentioned maybe these private changes they don't want to have to deal with tokens and have to deal with you know permission security in the permissionless model and instead they just want to reuse an existing working secure blockchain and so one model here would be to just drop drop their existing consensus that they've tested in the private world and then drop it in to an execution engine or we could also drop it in as a you know polkadot parrot chain that would kind of be a similar thing but regardless having some universal standard or at least one that is used widely seems to offer great deal benefits over time you have ideas on things that might fit into a decent standard stack we spoke about briefly hope I'm not pre-empting you know just commentary in the future but could you I guess outline a little bit some of which we spoke about not too long ago about what fits into that stack those pieces being worked on now elements of member linds elements are standard I mean if you've got a slot in to an execution engine or going to slot in as a pocket or pair chain then you want to try and express your consensus in wasum because that's what these two systems will be doing and it will also be helpful if you express you know the application layer itself and whatever because you know it will all be one one system I mean if you want to do something more ambitious and have your your own blockchain your own consensus then it is helpful to try and converge on the blockchain standards that are emerging at a lower level so at the networking level at the cryptographic level so for example at the cryptographic level you could use sha-256 for hashing pl/sql 381 for signatures that's a great starting point from networking you can consider the PGP as a great starting point if you if that's part of your more ambitious roadmap go ahead just on the subject of using execution environments for permission systems I think Brian made a really interesting distinction between public facing and private facing and as an additional access to public and private or permission and on permission thanks so using an execution environment to creative permissioned but public facing system might be useful it gives public verifiability without necessarily public participation right and if you if you want to be public but also have privacy is another dimension then you need to start getting fancy with zero-knowledge personally so I'm gonna come back to Brian for something a little more macro but related so the innovation and this might be something you disagree with some extent but a lot of the innovation is taking place in the public space especially I mean all of this was born out of the open source you know this of it and it changes quickly right so we could speak to the research being done by EF researchers or around the etherium space to IBC or so on and so forth I guess the question that I would ask is what what specifically are some of the member organizations interested in and and what could potentially be done to help connect them with those that may be building toward that future for example and a couple of quick examples would it be they're interested in privacy preserving elements like ZK roll-up so that they could protect their customer and consumer information while offering something on a public network with that level of security would they be interested in funding research or lending developers what are they interested in how can they drive or making a reality so in technology movements there's kind of a boom bust cycle of ideas that get tried and that eventually as a space mature as things kind of whittle down right into here's the here's the the architectures the concepts that actually seem to provide the most value for the least amount of lines of code at least amount of complexity right and I would argue in 2016 we didn't know what those are I'd say argue in 2019 we still haven't figured out what that final set is right and so I innovation can't just be about hey we've come up with a new idea it should be about like how do we systematically try to map the solution space give those who are passionate about these different ideas the free reign to kind of build their own kind of roadmaps decide which parts that problem they want to tackle first which ones they're happy to say here's a one dot oh right here's something that now I'm comfortable you use with you using my software completely without my involvement to track digital assets like that's like a big kind of like sort threshold right but let's try a number of these experiments let's allow Darwin to kind of play allow I you know those that succeed to keep iterating and going for it forward but the real question is how do we make sure to make sure that good ideas that are embedded inside of the projects that don't achieve that kind of critical mass don't just get lost or don't get I you know kind of just dismissed because they haven't had the wrong brand on them the wrong license the wrong set of characters around them how do we use that as mulch for the other projects that do continue to go forward and move on which was at least our rationale inside of hyper ledger for having this kind of greenhouse metaphor for these different projects right and some of them have turned out very well like hyper ledger indie which again hyper focused on identity has been able to let go and not have to bother with upgrading the entire world every time they want to try to invent some new topic or throw away an experiment that they did that didn't actually turn out well right and other projects like hyper ledger quilt which has been our implementation of the ILP standard which just kind of failed to get anybody excited about it right I I mean I'm following closely stuff going on that at IBC and with cosmos and that sort of thing I think that's great but a that was experiment we tried and it's still alive you can all go check it out still and use it but uh it's you have to be able to like be willing to take these experiments and wrists and I see our role as being very much about provide that space allow people to evolve but put these projects kind of on a conveyor belt to a one dot o release and eventually something that conservative organizations you know who don't like to upgrade every month who don't want to necessarily worry about a hard court forcing them to have to upgrade systems right tomorrow right or even at a pre-planned time six months in advance like they want to be a little bit more in control of the rate of change on their networks right how do we get them comfortable with the idea of using this technology when it's appropriate when it's not appropriate right and kind of provide training wheels for these organizations so they can eventually get caught up to the more forward-leaning organizations like those of you who got you I'm gonna kick the justin the coming off of this there are I've heard some talk of large larger organizations in the public space that are replicating efforts whether it be research Lapita be waz and research so coming off of what Brian's spoken about and flipping the question on its head there's to some extent a million developers aside limit on mine share of those that are able to develop at the core of the core right what would you find beneficial from let's say both enterprises and other public blockchain ecosystems in regard to interoperability or collaboration collaborative efforts to help both be able to produce what they're looking for and to avoid replication of efforts right so I mean after this panel I have a whole talk on collaboration and you know there's there's many things we can do we can you know at we can try and focus on low level components which are very modular things that are designed to be reused we can try and you know at at the legal level try and avoid things like bad licenses even bad open-source licenses we can try and avoid patents can try and avoid things like trademarks and ndas we can also you know be open from the get-go you know at the risk of being a bit more chaotic and messy try and open up your doors so that we can all learn from mister from the mistakes because some teams what they do is that they spend two years working on something and then H they ship something perfect but it's it's a lose-lose because they could have gone through gotten feedback earlier on and we could have learned from their failed experiments it's interesting thought so James on that note there are specific projects that enterprises have given to the public blockchain space that are open source taking nightfalls an example do you see them as they are beneficial and we think them for their work I'm sure are there elements of that that I guess we could be there we could work with more closely together to make sure that they're beneficial to the space so they have upside downside I definitely think so so nightfall is an interesting example because it's a cryptographic system and it's very difficult for non cryptographers to interact with or to understand how to reuse components of but I think as far as like the IBM blockchain and the door blockchain and all of these huge enterprise blockchain processes we haven't seen a lot of useful code fall out of it we have people like the if you enterprise aetherium Alliance etherium enterprise alliance ETA whatever it's called working with enterprises trying to serve their needs and ensure that they give back to the community but I can't think of you know any enterprise driven applications on chains that I've actually used so IBM has like 40 full-time engineers really using every line of code that they fabric as soon as they write it okay so that's great yeah and and they're about 40 percent of the total IP going into fabric so there's another big you know - yeah bundle of people outside in other companies why wait Deloitte others that go into that work - so perfect so I want to catch up with you about I could do a better job yeah so digging back into technical interoperability the work that's being done on the public side I guess will speak to first Justin's outlined a few of them a few others have been brought up on stage like IBC work privacy-preserving elements so I'd first like to kick to Justin to hear a little bit about what those leading areas may be and I'm going to then come back to Brian and figure out our different standards similar standards being worked on in the enterprise space and how can they begin to share that work or even its being open source apparently it's not being communicated to the best possible you know and of course comes in blockchain and I know it's a limited number of people so leading areas of potential technical interoperable focus what are we looking at as of now I mean one trend that I'm particularly excited and is leading the way forward in terms of like plans and interoperability is a seller and coder so they're they're going down the snog based like clients and they're bringing in a very sophisticated machinery you know recursive stocks one is like the fully recursive in the case of coda and then the case of seller is like one level of recursion and I think this is great in you know in terms of you know minimizing the cost of interoperability because at the end of the day you know when you have a very flexible virtual machine like wasn't then you know in theory you can be Ally clients for any other you know blockchain but in practice the limiting factor is just cost and by cost I mean the you know the gas cost in time action keys and so there really is a big engineering effort to be done to squeeze that cost down to almost nothing and and these projects are leaving that another kind of interesting consequence potentially of the the snarks approach is that it could be kind of a common language for all the various light clients to speak because every blockchain has a different consensus and so every time you breathe or bridge between two block chains that's like a custom ad-hoc build bridge which requires a lot of sophistication but maybe if we can you know encode these these algorithms and you know in circuits and then abstract away all the complexity and the stock that might be one way to to move forward and a quickness or James going I want to push back a little bit on snarks is like a interoperability mechanism the main thing that they're useful for is making updates and expensive things to cheap unfortunately when we're running a light client on chain the amount of updates is still linear in the frequency of the reads so if there's a lot of people reading the system your snark based system will converge back to just updating once per header rather than skipping a bunch of blocks right so one of the additional benefits of snarks is that you can combine some of the application layer logic and one of the you know you could one of the interesting pieces of application logic which actually is kind of between consensus and application is going to be the miracle paths the witnesses so generally speaking you have data on one on one chain you the route the light client is responsible for moving the route over and then the user is responsible for moving the data and the witness and in practice the the data is a faction of the of the total cost in terms of data you have the the medical paths are just much bigger and so there's this idea of using snarks for witness compression you can take all the witnesses for all the data and compress that down to 200 bytes and then even include that in the route update but yes I agree that if you're going to do very frequent reads with low granularity the the overhead of the lifeline starts disappearing and then you have these other overheads but they can also be subsumed in the stock right but we have to plan for the worst case scenario because Sabina bunch of stars in the one a grating starts as an interactive off training process right well you kind of you know in the way that change work right now you have like transactions in the mempool then you have a block producer that will batch everything and then that entity that's already there during the batching can also do go one step further into its notification and compression yeah and also or must also can in theory but in practice must if if if the costs are too high I find this helpful in whether it's done in a hallway or on stage for us to really press each other and break things down so - Brian it's a very similar question leading areas of research that you've been seeing in all different areas of hyper Ledger's focus is some of this beneficial that you might bring back and how might what's being worked on in camp be communicated back to the public sense some degree so project Avalon which is just launched is a project with consensus collide Oh Microsoft Intel i exac a couple of other companies are here to try to look at how do you manage and distribute I could see if I got the bullet point right it's coming up with like short descriptions these projects is really hard but it's how do you manage off chain every secure Enclave types of resources as a way to optimize and simplify certain transactions that otherwise would need to be a lot more expensive to perform around providing confidentiality to transactions and other types of things so it's something that implements the trustee compute framework definition that the enterprise at Deering Alliance has been working on I they there's a lot of interesting ideas there and it's it's still earlier days and it's still more of a raw Rd kind of thing but you know I also want to say a lot of what enterprises need right now is a system that provides immediate settlement I with everybody being able to verify this is the right order of transactions implementing prevention of double spend being able to implement a confirmation logic in the form of smart contracts or chain code whatever they want to call it and through that you can solve a huge number of kind of use cases that otherwise require parking a central server and having somebody run that I and and and and this is a way you can get rid of Swift you could get rid of a lot of these counterparties that today require a lot of trust sometimes it's earned sometimes it's not right sometimes it's just mandated and and this is what's driving a lot of the enterprise interest in blockchain technology today so I kind of feel like sometimes a lot of the really thorny work and hard work that is being funded by the e F and that is being worked on by this community is going to matter quite a bit down the road with these Enterprise Block C networks when they have hundreds or thousands of participants operating exactly as peers right when they have a lot of sophistication a lot of hostile actors on the networks that they have to try to algorithmically prevent today you can make up for a lot of that with better with with forms of human governance that operate at smaller scale but still provide enough of that guarantee and frankly enough with is still the right to fork since everybody has a copy of the ledger if they disagree they can go their separate ways and that provides enough of a check on tyranny I will say sometimes being too early is just as bad as being wrong I've seen a lot of with internet startups as well as standards efforts that I tried to define a world and solve problems long before their world was ready for them in the early 2000s there is a bunch of standards work around Oh off and open ID that tried to essentially say we're gonna build a decentralized social network here's all the building blocks to do it and they're all relatively finished it just turned out that Facebook took off and everybody went to that and there was no both no funding as well as no momentum behind independent implementations of all these underlying technologies and so I think we just have to be careful about going too far down a rabbit hole that doesn't have enough i end-user validation and enough momentum to make sure that we're not solving problems that don't actually end up being problems by the time the world is ready for that software okay it doesn't we have just a couple of minutes left so we've spoken over the last almost 40 minutes about different different efforts in the research and for for bringing this whole ecosystem together whether they are on the private end on the public and the last couple of minutes I'm gonna ask a question that I'm personally curious about we've seen things again in their design framework come much closer together over the last few years I used to know 2015 or so what might this look like in four years all right you figure we're probably there a little bit sooner than we are so on and so forth what does hyper Ledger's going down the line to close what is and hopefully if you can about 50 seconds what does it look like in four five years when these systems are developed does it is it all too different from the public space and what is the public's basically I my hope is that there's a handful of technologies that people can pick up and deploy without thinking twice but there's an API they can use and not worried too much about what's going on under the covers but if they need to it's open source they can drill in and figure out what's going on and fix things if they need I do see us pretty much sticking to being a place where software gets built and leaving standards work up to folks like EEA or the EIP process or other groups kind of thinking about how do you get agreement between parties about kind of the protocol there but when you want to come together and simply get better leverage on you know if the precious time that it takes to put software together that's that's why working together in any open-source community makes sense we want to keep doing for the next four years thank you so what does Summa look like in four years I think that depends a lot on what the whole ecosystem looks like in four years at Summa we try to work on the chains with the most impact today that means Bitcoin in aetherium cosmos and polka dot are up and commenting and there's a handful of other chains that are interesting we've started working with private chains as well we've worked a little bit with like quorum like just playing around with it I'm hopeful that within four years we'll have a better idea of what the space looks like and we'll be running multiple cross chain relays and multiple ecosystems Justin well I'm hopeful that in four years you know we'll have figured out sustainable interpret bility within the context of a theorem and and a homogeneous chance but also hopeful that we'll be you know working very closely with components that are fit for example in the web 3 framework so you know decentralized storage at scale for example as a nice complement to decentralize their computation and data availability also looking forward to you know interacting with you know the most vibrant pockets of activity it could be polka dots it could be you know it could be Bitcoin for example and then using for example cosmos as bridges I'm just it's very hard to predict the future but I'm quite excited we go I look forward to seeing where the vision goes maybe OpenSocial is not dead yet thank you all for participating and look forward to the rest of the day thanks so much [Applause] you