# ETHWaterloo II presents:Web 3.0 Peter Kieltyka, Dan Elitzer, Jonathan Sampson,Sean Li, Kartik Talwar - Speakers: [Kartik Talwar](https://streameth.org/speakers/kartik-talwar), [Dan Elitzer](https://streameth.org/speakers/dan-elitzer) - Channel: [ETHGlobal](https://streameth.org/ethglobal) - Date: 2020-10-09 - Duration: 36:17 - Topics: ethereum, ETHWaterloo, ETHWaterlooII, Shopify, Peter Kieltyka, Dan Elitzer, Jonathan Sampson, Sean Li, Kartik Talwar, Brave, Horizon Blockchain Games, Fortmatic - Watch: https://streameth.org/watch/yt-a243TKLTeqE - YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a243TKLTeqE ## Description As part 4 of 4 talks at a special ETHWaterloo II event, a panel comprised of Peter Kieltyka, Founder of Horizon Games, Dan Elitzer, Founder of MIT Bitcoin Club, Jonathan Sampson, Sr Dev Evangelist at Brave, Sean Li, Founder at Fortmatic, Kartik Talwar, Partner at A.Capital discuss Web 3.0 and other topics, in answer to the theme of the event, "why does Ethereum matter?" The full event, which took place at Shopify's Barrel Hall on Nov.8, 2019, was organized as part of ETHWaterloo II, which was the final hackathon in ETHGlobal's 2019 series and featured the following speakers & panelists: - Vitalik Buterin (Inventor, Ethereum) - Joey Krug (Founder of the Augur prediction market protocol) - Will Warren (Founder of the 0x exchange protocol) - Michael Dunworth (Founder & CEO of Wyre, a fiat-to-crypto onramp) - Marcelo Cortes (Founder of Faire, Creator of Square's Cash App) - Peter Kieltyka, Founder of Horizon Games - Dan Elitzer, Founder of MIT Bitcoin Club - Jonathan Sampson, Sr Dev Evangelist at Brave - Sean Li, Founder at Fortmatic - Kartik Talwar, Partner at A.Capital and more... ## Transcript so next up I can I call Peter Dan jumbo Shawn to the stage as well as her so I'm gonna turn it over to Karthik tell our is the co-founder next to me so this next one presentation is a general we agreed and all I'll be doing a quick panel with all of us just kind of covering some of the questions around what it means to transition into that world so kind of with that and only very kind of heard of her here today what resonates is doing as many stunning example I would love to learn or that the audience know who you are whyis you in and just in general of what 1 3 means to you sure so my name is a dancer investor I do cool adventures which is a crypto blog chain focused early-stage VC fund from idea which is this global design firm so we tend to come at this from a very user centric perspective and one of the big questions around what three has been around usability I think some of the books had really been leading the way in terms of making these financial interactions these mini Easter be creative making them feel or web to so a small time we look around like I love sky we've related a bunch and I'm just really excited by how quickly the space is evolving look and see for thematic basically resolve the usability problems in web 3 subject management models so you can log into a web 3 at normal with email or phone in a noncustodial key management architecture and yeah basically alternative to met events so users don't have to worry before that I was probably the docker gradient of her desktop which is used by any of the other person every month and I'm stuck with software we got that little plug thank you so much of course brave is a privacy oriented browser we focus not on just preserving the user privacy of your soccer game but also the sustainability of the web we've seen since 2016 4 or 600 million devices of locking eyes with tractors across the web this is spectacular for making it safer or private web as those tractors tend to leak your information liberally to various third parties without your consent but there's also a sustainability because when you walk in all these ads you're not just hurting a big companies you're hurting the small people as I mentioned people who are writing tutorials on civility the people who are building awesome games if they were to run advertisements in those games and so what break is done is we measure set out to create utility token that would allow you to transfer value back from those individuals wallets and it's been working considerably well for us for a few years now so looking forward to where this industry goes forward and what we talked about today thanks so a lot of things are just tested on what I want to say is let's start a discussion on this is one topic meditator the interesting sort of consequence of moving to the web three world they said now you were moving the cost of managing the data and the ownership of it to the user is a lot of side effects of that there's a lot of good and bad of it from your perspective like just spit be starting with do you think that's a good move or shoot users be in charge of their data and do they want that like what do you think about that from the money of your products at the point of you look for the general sense minutes and should the average users care give it a first pass I don't think any user cares about managing your updated in fact they don't want to manage their own data what they want is privacy and the ability to control how that data is used and so I think tools like brave are really good for that putting the user back control but one of the I think big questions that everyone here is grappled with is how do you give users control without putting them in a position where they are going to screw up right and lose their day nobody wants to lose their data even more than they don't want somebody else to misuse yeah I was not missing at the beginning but then I was I do think it's it's important that we as the the individuals building the software build the solutions that we face the scary bits of it users should not have to think about the blockchain they should not have to think about breaches and episode they download our apps they use our apps they do so with an implicit trust the great thing about for even many of the common applications today is that we never have your data in your neighbor it never leaves your device and we can't abuse or lose what we don't have and so I think it's to your point the goal is to make it easy for the user so that the stuff just happens by default the users don't have concerns that they would had in years prior yeah the way I see it is I think in order to move users to the Western world it needs to be a more pragmatic path where we provide something that is you know the familiar user experience to users of the web to world so I think I sell me some of the key mentoring challenges for example leverage with things at the SS to store user data then you can kind of achieve this kind of experience without introducing new concepts to regular users and yet essentially I think it's a progressive disclosure and as users get more context of what they want it has slowly evolved into products fulfill their requirements so actually one thing to circle back to your original question for this I think that's a big challenge one of the amazing things about the advertising driven model has been that it's enabled access to services to billions of people people who would not be able to pay Facebook started charging they could not pay for Google services and so there is this flattening effect from advertising that I think is really powerful this enabled wonderful things I think the issue is that we've almost like tip too far in our place where the level of surveillance and loss of control it is a problem but I think one of the things that I really don't want us to lose as we make this one three transition is the idea that services need to find a way to remain free and accessible to everyone in the world or else we thought that term in here idealistically but we're gonna end up creating a worse version of what we have to now so it's a very interesting topic maybe one comment could be triggered as you kind of design a game that that's mostly covered on web 3 what kind of psychological behavior changes does that require like did you think that it adds more calm patience or different mindset now that everybody can tell you this thing or does that get extracted away all for doing these offering these these features as things like you meant to worry about data loss or inventory 5p teasers post your information being stolen but nothing else changes on the outside it's a great question you know that's what gaming is a cool thing to explore just because it kind of there's an existing market around virtual ideas they're fairly it can be typically low value so it's easier to connect explore the design space in terms of obviously usability and kind of data access it should be essentially indistinguishable from what is web to obviously that's why we've taken the perspective of offering a fully integrated solution in terms of data and ownership of courses it's very important to get noncustodial decentralized approach for multiple reasons I mean even as an application developer or someone offering you know service you don't want to take on the risk of actually losing someone's you know core assets I'm data is a big word so there's so many kinds of data and people found data differently I think so if it's your assets which actually are related to our market that's a bit you know different in terms of gaming and why I think it's you know really cool what's the incentive there's there's there's kind of multiple reasons you know typically prefer virtual people like personal items because they like the utility to get to play with them like there is actually a thirty two billion dollar market of virtual items for free video games many people buy them because they want to play with them you want to show them off and pleasure collecting and I think what's really cool about I think the kind of the blockchain there is there is a speculative kind of excitement around knowing that you this might this could be converted to something else perhaps and I could refund it like in the digital download era you know if I download something on my PS or had a better off going to EB Games at least I could like swap it for another game I think it's cool when you explore the defined space of competitive games because you can actually distribute rewards and kind of a profit-sharing kind of a model that what moulinet expand the number of people who are participating in this and aunts extra metagame capabilities and I think even way colder than that is people like the cycle of people creating and then contributing the the players contributing content or the developers to the players that create this characteristic where she was like oh and you know put that answers your question to some extent but it should be distinguishable and secure and theirs and that's really hard to do for video dan touched on that a minute maybe LSS intent as well but that's moving to this one three let us kind of explore different types of business models in and it's gonna pointed out a lot of this is based on subsidy that lets you kind of trade off distribution versus sort of revenue or product focus how do you think about what changes in terms of business models or issues or just how people operate businesses yeah that's a great question so what we've seen in this today crypto world has been there been two business models that work so far one is exchanges where people are buying side - exchangers made a lot of money and the other has been selling a toque issuing - and those are not like free generalizable models right it's wonderful that there are some big businesses basic infrastructure built that way but we do need to get beyond them and so I have loved these severe events that we're seeing here's doing the horizon where it's it's version of this term were supposed it was like later giving a way to like enter into it through participation so I think that's an interesting model and I'd love to see that get proved out a little more we're seeing a lot of variations now where people are building this financial stack so part when we watch the d5 panel before I think a lot of the projects representative did launch their own okay we're late before they have any broadly used products may be functional but it wasn't didn't I brought a particle thing and now we're starting to see more protocols like compound which is this money market protocol unis wanna push this exchange protocol that are launching and they don't as their business but they may evolve into it or they may build another type of business on top of that so I wish I like here's the new work three business model only I don't think we have that yet but the speed of experimentation and the fact that we seem to at least for now we've gotten past the phase we're gonna sell it to him and people are gonna use it and the values gonna go up it's getting a lot more nuanced and sophisticated than that yet one of the things I think Peter mentioned earlier was the value it's not just the individuals that are at the very top of it in our industry would be like content creators not just the journalists we had double-click was their next 95 net gravity was born in the apartment of John Tanner and Tom shields visiting and so what I love this sea is that we're sharpness understand that value is produced in some non-traditional ways we start to see value introduced by individuals who are already individuals on Twitter and what break is doing is we're actually taking some of that the value that's put into the system form advertisers these traditional points were able to circulate they have through to the people that have created a lot of the value that haven't been in the appreciating they deserve years and so I love that person able to create a way for people to actually transfer value in these non traditional formats as well as non-traditional platforms but yeah I do see that web streaming Able's a lot of new ways to generate it's better and you also see that the lights are starting to blur between webstream excuse so as we make so I come from the infrastructure background I like building tools for developers and I see a lot of great technology being created just in the space that could be useful as infrastructure in fact even the web to world so you know party that is the key Benjamin or secret management that could be really useful for this kind of new locals first application movement which preserves privacy so I see a lot of applications in the traditional web as well so I do see that's the potential direction for many companies as well so I actually want to take the hypothetical scenario which is the extreme of the opposite of what you just said now that you get the ability to in a way price every transaction anywhere from a clip to an interaction do you think that kind of converges having think about internet or to have information should be free or not free or does that mean we're gonna see a world where you have to pay money for accessing everything and also in general does that force more money related things on the web like how much do you worry about that does that matter do you care of this is not even a real concern for you actually don't let's see how does it change the interactions I think what ends up happening is by incentivizing more people you get deeper and ever expanding like richer content just that's kind of was the point that's why I talked about what wanted to in the fact of equipment and two versus closed system because you guys have been remembered for the Netscape thing remember like gala online like how awesome it looked actually and it had all these amazing things but it was an open system and how could you build a business on such a closed ecosystem even like the idea of getting business together I think it offers for example a network game we used on me and our Acadia coin which is actually a stable currency mean use as our base kind of they think of it like epic need be bugs but that are decentralized and work across ecosystems but we don't have a commercial agreement with diet sir or maker down you know they we know of each other but we never talked about working together I just leverage their technology so I think the permission is ability to do business together creates you know the right incentives to allow me to build these platforms that creates exponential output and production of the immortal thing things it creates new opportunities to actually make an income and finally are just you know also just think about like something like Twitter which would only music can really enjoy you know you guys can remember the stories of when they released three key is already kept changing their opinion as to the guidelines as to what you could or could not do then you know if this is web 3 ecosystem that's not really probably right because it's part of similar to everyone and the whole ethos it encourages proper ability and it kind of the building on top of it that's benefited layer underneath it as well Chris Moore utilities essentially we should face board about I think even if we get to the point every packet of data is essentially you have to be for it for someone to store look for it that's still gonna get bundled like most people are not going to be paying per pack there will always be somebody will come provide some other earth air margin service on top and they'll be willing to eat that cost in order to have your business on there so I don't think that's going away that's not going to happen there's a great classic example of counting their ears to micropayments and four people are familiar like micropayments generally are referring to like some five cents or someone stands payments which are possible with credit cards based on the models today and so there are technologies that are being developed in 3-space that allow for sub penny payments to actually be viable I think that will be used for certain infrastructure that generally will get exposed at their consumer yeah that that would enable a lot of like new ways for infrastructure to charge and something that's more fair that is based on absolutely music to update their stuff versus something like charging for active users or yeah generally and I think is important for the coast to be open and relation experience to build trust so that you know other companies and build on top of it I had to see potentially two models where the protocol layer can make money makes money as well and in one case is no dollars poposaurus is very open it's very transparent way at this project you know an open-source project and it has like a centralization and lining issues so I would potenti foresee that you knew your local story models without the blockchain or - yeah with brave there is an invisible transcript that you might be involved that the users may be not even aware of oftentimes so the way the system works is advertiser dollars go away and they're converted into tokens users browse the web the browser keeps a private local summary of the sites you visit and how much time you spend on each one including primaries at YouTube channels Twitter account so forth and at the end of each month there's for having you transferred out proportional to the amount of time spent close properties to those publishers in themselves and so I think there's gonna be these emerging companies of just invisible transport all the time I would I'd hate to see stuff which before that haunted just being locked away behind pay walls or stuff where you have to manually and forcefully exert though the the friction to get access to that but so far I'm very optimistic that need to be open if there is a necessity for value transfer is going to Y which is like their mental accounting varies for quick okay once I think there's actually ways that we can use human psychology to enable new models and so I love what brave does in terms of letting you sound like your budget that your main contribute to the websites you visit and then it automatically splits your your payment proportionally across those sites I think that's great even when it's not mandatory when you can get people to opt in and I think of as a real interesting parallel there's a company in the energy space called o power and their big thing is they've created these amazing bills that customers receive that utility come his work with them that basically tells you how you're doing and conserving energy relative to your neighbors relative to the low energy users in your neighborhood and it kind of gets this sense of like a competition going or social obligation going and it's incredibly effective getting people to use less energy I think similar tactics can be applied where even if payment isn't mandatory that people want to be good citizens and we can shape the experience make a great default experience to encourage them to pay even when they strict you know minnows right we've seen different artists and filmmakers do these pay what you can models I think this will be something that we'll see more and more I think one of the things I realized is that there has always been a demographic out there that has wanted to support bunch of creators they wanted to pay but to have to eat your wallet out to eat your credit card out to put that into someone else's system to not have any idea where or how it's being stored and then to eventually find out so in the future that you've been poned it's no one wants to do that it's not very popular plus you don't want to manage multiple different platforms you have your patriarch account with all the other competitors who the Creator supports and so it's I think we're seeing yeah people just love the idea of supporting project Raiders they want to they just need a lower friction compared to injury that makes a lot of sense a I guess like and I with that apart from just the the obvious UX and keep management issues you know what do you think the biggest barriers are technical otherwise prevents people or ferment about 3d from going to billions of users like anything you fear that it could be a big hurdle other than those two things I think he's definitely the divine so there's like this thing this invisible line between x2 and x3 that kind of inhibits like us finding like what actually bridges these two worlds and reducing so we within a user research for our interface and we realize that you know a lot of mainstream users are familiar with Bitcoin right but in terms of like east defy right all these new concepts is very foreign to them and like if we put it easy right the interface if you put least they're like what it's not an expense so definitely I think we should be consolidating a digital currency as a whole as a general classic right floor because you know taking out a credit card all that is is such a dirty experience I hope you great if you have a balance somewhere that those are but I think the consolidation of this cryptocurrency especially maybe to between maybe something else would would really benefit instrument option because user artists familiar with like digital currency concept because they use them all and square so yeah one thing you mentioned is digital currency and it's going up more more recently I just straight really named deterrent because the dollar is digital today largely speaking and cryptocurrency is scary people of really negative associations term like things like internet native right it's not neither to any nation state it's not native to any particular company it's just internet money I think maybe back captures the ethos that were going for here that really divides also from some of these pension national issue digital crypto style currencies yeah he was Mark injury so you said it was one of its original sins I mean even have some type of currency or I'm your sister built-in but they face many challenges with exporting software with strong cryptography but one of the other things I think that is a barrier to better adoption is we have this far better model I think if your opinion basically you know these blockchain projects are so much better but they've got to trust but the thing they don't really help with is user comfort so if I lose if I stand 100 m to the wrong address it's just gone I kids not retrievable however if someone takes - a card from my wallet remember something like that and they used it well then I can remember those ones you should do by yourself here to help me with that and so there are people that are sure to think about those types of problems well because it's it's kind of it's it's kept some people from wanting to get into this industry because there's not that trust that realizes that the system's going to protect them and so I think that's the future I think the only thing it's a pretty mess between realizing I'm about three and now it was just time and honestly I think we in terms of usability in your works you know it's all there we now go to Paul I think whether it's minutes transactions or walnuts generically it's more contract wallets it's a big developed Italy kind of baked recovery systems and acting in that way I think there's all the people we just need more of it or eat local events to be honest you know the ring people together to educate developers and Tamar development tools to actually simplify and greatly bumping along bring people onto the system and entering any kind of the use cases that are novel that really make sense and like all things in technology and we kind of it's a it's a series it's a bit of like pattern discovery and bukata apply these things you know through a common thread and then Rio and then making them easy to use and then offering those better you know and what's cool about that's what's great about open systems is you get the exponential scale because of the Tropper bility and even more so because of the lack of kind of you know risk in terms of collaboration you actually can enable mass collaboration so I think we have just need time honestly it's not scalability it's not a thing that's getting solved by a number of individuals not even eath to you can one you know each one it's not the wallets there's likewise great smart contract conference it's I think the one world kind of land on ultimately that will like hold things back and I think they'll be green infrastructure companies but of course it's security right managing these economies and managing assets and in regulatory issues is definitely the thing money laundering is a concern all of these sort of things but I don't think we're far away it's great to to wrap up what is one fun or interesting web three thing you played with me something anything people yeah you should check out other than your game the browser course guys are doing I'm obviously a major fan of the role of work that's not in England Lior to the obviously station of work that the state channel team is doing is amazing bringing that together across the people inactive I really think smart contract wallets are absolutely crucial for a lot of important disability improvements the Securities that's me so far yeah the technical side I'm really excited a transaction L to stuff that's happening from a consumer expect to have Emma disclosed different relation of beer so this but there's where they've got this game five savings so you're depositing dies digital dollar and it's going into compound but every week all the interest is being collected together and one person regulates that anybody can withdraw their principal anytime but it kind of game advise savings and this has been done before number of different countries have done it it's been different pilot programs and what it generally tends to to is it gets people who are almost like gambling or lager playing mindset and they converse that into a saving behavior so their principle is protected and then it starts to build new behaviors that we can do this power and global scales that's building off multiple primitives that have been created in this space right it's building up the makers system which enables dive this table coin and spilling off a compound which maples this farming and running vertical so I think it's it's really cool it's very compelling for people who haven't tried any crypto or three upscale yeah for me have been generally interested in that that helps users earn cryptocurrency that's like basically one of the best ways to get adult just paint over it but when that is consent so essentially it's a decentralized social network and you can post all these nice hosts and then you can speed or stake on the post if the post actually takes off the original poster and the hurdy cedars get different cryptocurrency and one of the users actually have maybe enough to buy a bike for his daughter and when I saw that it was like whoa you're actually by earning crypto you're impacting other people's lives and you know on top of that given all of this you know digital nomads like Google I say should global workforce on the steps our workers Trent I'm really into the project awfulness so basically they would help this digital nomads get paid in cryptocurrency and they'll make sure that is you know really comply and they do all the hard work to do that and the last one I've been pretty obsessed with or I can new token and models oneness continuous organization it's a beautiful way to use on the curves to very enticing to investors I want to thank our sponsors well the joy and see people their first locusts when it used to be the case you'd have to mine that takes that people would be able to buy them but so many people are just running their first look this is Daisy super exciting especially break this I obviously very biased but this is also genuine answer it is one of the most exciting applications of the technology in such a long time I spent a lot less time on Twitter part of my job fortunately and so I get to see people you know elated every month when they receive the payouts for participating very goods without having to divulge any of their private information did anybody West River it's so neat to see waves and waves of normal everyday people coming into this industry in such a low freshener and so it's been an absolute joy thank you all so we can join meeting around more plausible speakers lastly just before I give you a chance to speak to the speakers I have three short announcements first if you're interested in these videos and more just follow each global on YouTube and we'll send you these videos and other global events videos they're more professional recorded number two eath mobile if they're interested in working with them were actually hiring a marketing lead so if you're interested in putting on events like this on a global scale please reach out to the organizers are typically they're a true source of worth lastly I wanted to think gatherings one more time for helping us make today possible this pretty public lecture and I also wanted to thank our friends at Shopify for helping us by giving us this beautiful space to have these talks so with that we'll wrap up and we'll give you guys a chance to make something new but thank you very much [Applause]