# Bringing web2 users onchain: Picnic’s case study by João Ferreira | Devcon SEA

- Speakers: João Ferreira
- Channel: [Devcon](https://streameth.org/devcon)
- Date: 2025-10-09
- Duration: 1:09:16
- Topics: Science & Technology
- Watch: https://streameth.org/watch/yt-aKbsZkxeJNs
- YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKbsZkxeJNs

## Description

Account abstraction had mixed success so far. Some specific purpose apps have been getting great usage, but there is still little economic value being transacted using account abstraction and very low repeat usage.

By building Picnic, we discovered that account abstraction is currently much better suited to bring web2 users onchain than to cater for crypto natives. We'll share our learnings from the trenches and offer builders a fresh perspective on how to accelerate adoption.

Speaker(s): João Ferreira
Skill level: Intermediate
Track: Usability
Keywords: Use Cases, User Experience, Account Abstraction, adoption, mass

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Devcon SEA was held in Bangkok, Thailand on Nov 12 - Nov 15, 2024.
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## Transcript

[Music] hello everyone uh great to be here my first Devcon talk ever uh so super excited you join me um I'll be talking about the counter protection I have been building uh defi consumer app in Brazil uh it's called picnic we have been in the front lines trying to get Web Two users to be on chain and execute transactions on chain and the idea here is to share what we're learned um so who are we like building consumer defi app very focused in Brazil right now um we are seeing like really interesting feedback from users um so like when I go to conferences in Brazil when I meet people there uh it's really nice to see that people really like the product connect and see the vision and see the benefit in using day-to-day and there's two metrics I really like about that there's something called Shan Lis score that is basically uh a form you send your users and you ask how disappointed you would be if you cannot use the product anymore 60% of users say they would be very disappointed which is a compelling thing that people really care about what you're doing and you're seeing really good repeat usage so once the user swaps there's a 57% the user will chance the user will swap next month um so this is really good we'll put that a bit into context but it's a real world use case that we have been seen repeat usage and on the D5 front with account abstraction we are doing really good volumes uh so we're doing close to half uh the swap volumes using RC 427 across the main evm chains and why did I decide to apply the stock uh and and come here to to bring what we have learned I think we talk a lot about Mass adoption and though everyone needs to be on chain but I think that this is very vague and Abstract uh there's I mean at least on the talks I have been participating there is not a whole lot of dep on how you actually do that like from the point we are at right now how do we evolve this thing to really get people to mass adopt it and and use it dayto day and as we are building uh something with like a few thousand users and we have been shipping iterating and learning uh I thought it would be valuable to come here and share what we have been seeing um for who this talk I think it would be valuable as everyone that's interested in Mass adoption and getting the new on on on how to get there uh it will be mostly focused in strategy and product is talking about what decisions we took why we took them uh so Builders people on ecosystems VCS I think everyone can see some value here um it should be uh pretty open so if you have any questions at any point in time just raise your hands we we can make q&as and and talk a bit and expl topics I think they're uh very I'll give a brief overview and we can deep dive on in a specific topic we want to uh I don't have I have 50 slides or so but I don't think it would be enough to cover all the time so yeah we have time for Q&A I think it would be very valuable and to give you a sense on what we're covering uh I'll start giving you uh an overview of the account abstraction landscape uh kind of what's working what's not then we'll talk about bit uh which kinds of users see the most value from this piece of technology and how should we approach the the twool set we have what's working best then are going to picnic uh trying to give a sense of product decisions what worked what didn't and uh small tweaks we made that make a difference we're going some through some of our user research search and then going after like What are problems we see today how can we solve that how is the road map for the future like I think we learned some cool stuff but there's a lot of work ahead um so on the account abstraction landscape uh if I would summarize account abstraction in one slide you basically get a bunch of different problems like authentication uh gas like teaching users that you need a specific token for a specific chain to pay for gas I think that there's no way this thing will be Mass adopted just because of that one thing seed phrase is another thing that just like doesn't make sense to have to teach someone about a SE phrase to be able to Ard it right people should just be able to use it and the thing should work same as chains and like transactions approv swap anything that gets a bit more complex is it's just too much work if you're talking with the average person um so account protction it solves most of the these issues or at least give you more options on things you can build and the result of that it should be that um it should be usable by Web Two users so account abstraction I think that a fundamental promise is like you can break the bubble and you can make those products usable by a much wider audience and it's growing like if you see the charts most dashboards you see things like this so this is number of deployed smart accounts across the main evm chains uh Trend looks good uh not act exponential but still healthy and it's kind of obvious it should grow like you're making it easier to use so like if something is easier people just use it more right uh but if if you do some more detailed analysis and you look at individual projects the trend is not usually that just make it easy and things will go this kind of pattern that you see like spikes and things dying down this is is very very common across this space um not sure who has seen that but this this retention rates for the whole account abstraction space so like this is like 2% retention for the first week the the best one we have here in all ones is like 12% which is reasonable but like most are four or three is really really low retention so for every 25 users you get only one returns next week to do something so there is this uh problem with repeat usage and uh the the main thing here is like why this thing happening right like why people are not coming back to do transactions next next week why the value is not being sustained um and just to get a sense who here is using account abration Wallets on like a monthly basis okay so five people and who hear is using Wallets on a monthly basis yeah and this is kind of my point I think I don't use I like I I use picnic but it's a different use case I don't even think Pi about picnic as a wallet but account abstraction wallets are not a very good solution for web tree native users I think they are worse than youa wallets for web tree natives the first one is you pay more gas there's gas overhead to be able to use account ofaction wallets second thing is limited use cases um so if you want to deploy in in a new chain if the wallet provider using it doesn't support that chain like if you want to do that manually maybe you can't maybe you can but you need to be a developer so it's it's this weird thing that uh you you can't do whatever you use to do you don't have that much Freedom uh there's deps that won't work with that if you deploy it on ZK sync you have a different address so there's all those weird curve works that yeah it is worse in terms of use cases and you also need to learn it so like I spent my a lot of time around smart contract wallets I know how it works I trust it but if you talk even with the typical web tree native user there's a learning curve here is probably the most sophisticated piece of that cohort so people get it how it works but like a lot of people is why does it have a different address where's the S phrase of the smart contract wallet and all those questions that come up that you need to educate and that is a learning curve and in the end like you you're pay more gas you have less stuff to do but you already learned how to operate a eoa wallet so why you're going through all that hassle like you don't really need a smart contract wallet you can do it without so that that's the thing that's like trying to put uh counter projection as is uh in the hands of web tree natives is not the path I think 7702 changes a lot of that but for now uh it hasn't worked I have I don't know of any examples and the examples I know that are working out in a different different direction and and the question is okay so web Tre natives not really working so for who this technology adds value and the thing we have been seeing is like uh people that cannot do it otherwise so if you have someone that wants to do something on chain be it because you wants a a product that's noncustodial or want to buy a token that's not available anywhere this person doesn't really know how to use an EA then you can deliver a lot of value because it's not a matter of like being easier than the alternative is being a matter of like can I do it or can I not do it and the person like doesn't have the option of the EA and and getting specific used cases I think it's it's an important one as well like poly Market I would put in in that bucket World coin in that bucket there people that is like more uh if you abstract the uax and you make a very simple flow very easy that that seems to to work much better than trying to do everything and the the thing that you're seeing like this is the kind of chart I showed like you got spikes you you got web three users you got a lot of hype but it's very hard to sustain it the one on the right is picnic that's weekly transactions for the past few months uh you don't see necessarily the big big spikes but it is retention is really good so people come they use the product they like it and they keep using it um and the idea here now is like to give you a sense on what are the product decisions that we made and why the thing is working but now like any question so far how is that going just okay I'll keep pushing and then we can do Q&A later or because already went to like 20 slides and yeah let's see how that goes um so the things like the idea here is is go to the things we I think we did right and what were the key learnings we had in each of the steps um so first thing I think one of the ways I describe picnic is that it's a centralized exchange like experience or a finch like experience but everything running on chain and I think focusing on that very very core use case it has been it makes the product much easier to build uh it makes the product much easier to understand for users there's a simple use case you can you come to buy and sell tokens basically and it make makes it easier to use there's is just a single flow and one thing I think uh we spent a lot of time is just like okay account abstraction is really nice I think it's a fundamental building block if we want to deliver uh we like dii for a wider audience for web 2 users but what else be beyond that do we need to build so what other building blocks are key and critical and I'll give you an overview of the the whole product this uh we see here is basically like the main uh pieces of the flow I'll get a bit more in detail but basically you can sign in with Google you can sign in with mail if you want to connect with an external wallet you can as well and once you sign in um one of the critical things we spent a lot of time thinking about is how to integrate um onchain with offchain so that this thing here this is uh iban iban is basically a European bank account so that second line is a bank account number if you transfer money to that iban this is Europe This is live in Europe uh we're mainly in Brazil but we're also present in Europe and I think this is a better example because it's onchain bank account that's the abstraction I'm making if I transfer Euros to that iban uh Euro stable coins are minted in the wallet as soon as the money arrives and if you transfer1 EUR you receive like1 Euros in your wallet and you can spend from there and this is like the swap flow so like let's say I transfer 225 to that iban now I have 25 in my wallet I can buy ARB with that so that's kind of the flow is very similar to what you would get in a fch very similar to what you get in a centralized exchange but that's all happening on chain uh with pretty pretty abstracted uxx and I'll go by everyone of the components of that flow um so it's basically authentication on an off ramp gas change transactions and a few other tricks um on the authentication part um you basically have Google email and external wallet uh a a very peculiar thing we learned like we have been iterating with this sort of product for almost two years uh we didn't start with the connect with the exteral wallet that's something we added much later and it's really interesting that least on our perception option that just giving the ability for the user to connect with an external wallet connect with metamask or anything else uh most users are not using that that is fairly complicated and and not really the point of what we're doing but it helped increase trust a lot uh maybe not necessarily with the end user but for example content creators and YouTubers and and people that really helped us grow they Trust said this a lot more when we added the option to connect with metamask because now it's much easier to understand that things are actually happening on chain and this is actually noncustodial so that that was a a small detail in the user flow that makes a lot of difference in how you Market it and how you access users and how you can distribute it um some other thing that I think it's mentioned was adding the external wallet layer was adding the external wallet integration part of your uh effort to onboard web3 natives because you you mentioned somewhere in the beginning of your talk that the the user is he's not a web3 native when it comes to a it's somebody who is outside right so what what made you feel this was important um people ask for it like a few users ask for the external wallet uh option so that's why we added it is just like people are asking quite a few let's Implement that but uh it's like 15% of our users use external wallets right now so it is significant but in my perception the biggest gain we got from the external wallet was the trust that people see you can connect with wallet so they understand quicker it is noncustodial um yeah but if we're seeing Web Two users migrate to external wallets after they start using with email we have not been monitoring that um I don't think it's happening that much uh still like people use email lugin still a lot um so we're much more in the path to improving email login and getting a better uh security can could you get a microphone there can can can I get some help with the mics titles um but yeah the external wallet I think is mostly good for for trust so I I'm curious did you build your own custom o or did you use something off the shelf uh we're using magic link magic link yes yeah but that's just for the email right is or is it for Google authentication we we have for both okay gotcha gotcha and that the external wallet is a separate thing yeah it's separate the external wallet it's it's directly I think it's ktic kit that connected with wagi and that's wag yeah all right thank you okay keep a permanent mic yeah and one interesting learning we had on this off piece is that getting something that is more centralized but is more reliable is it's much better than more decentralized and less reliable like if you're having trouble with like 3% of logging cases which we had with the different provider that's a really bad thing like this thing cannot break never it's like it's very important to be super super robust um so now which I think is probably one of the most interesting pieces uh is the integration with uh Fiat the off offchain onchain integration um we we were doing defi native stuff before and we had uh we worked with a French protocol with Jarvis they did a lot of uh not exotic stable coin so they did the Brazilian ra stable coin Japanese Yen stable coin and spending time there uh with the founder made me realize that stable coins like local stable coins are the best possible solution for on and off ramp uh that's for mainly two reasons first is unit off account so like people in Europe are already used to thinking in Euros so your all your balances are in Euros like Brazil is the same everything it's in real in many many countries it's like that so if you're funding an account you're already thinking your currency better to keep that way right this it's just easier less cognitive overload things just work and one really cool thing that I don't see a lot of people talking about stable coins make money just sitting on the money so they get the treasury yield like in Brazil they get paid 10% a year just to hold R eyes in Europe is like 3 or 4% a year something on that range so they have a revenue stream just by holding your euros and give you stable coins um so like they can incentivize on off ramps or they can subsidize on enough ramps which is what we have been seeing both in Europe and Brazil we have uh free and very fast and and very good and on and off ramps and that seems sustainable like we're not subsidizing it that's the business model for the stable coents so it is is the both from the e perspective as well as from the economics perspective the longterm way to onard users and it's free and instant it's it's a really really good uh ux like you can go from bank money or bank account in Brazil to money or bank account in Europe through picnic in five minutes and you can do the inverse as well if you have a fast Bank in Europe that's usually the Bott neck um one cool thing we did this was more recent but uh across the app we're not calling uh stable coins by their name so the Euro stable coin we use is URI from monum but we just call it Euros U for R eyes is bla we just called it R eyes uh we had quite a bit of feedback especially on the less sophisticated side of users like okay a deposit re eyes and I got this weird thing called BL what is that um so those small details they matter a lot especially when you go to less sophisticated users so I think uh spending time there in in improving small Details Matter a lot um one other thing that I think is worth mentioning is is kyc and ux to to be able to onramp we had a different uh onramp R provider uh before the the ones we had have right now and it was a quite bad kyc process it was confusing not very well polished I think it it's worth spending a lot of timeing at kyc works really good uh conversions is day and night I think that one of the things that made it us able to grow and see some repeat usage was getting the the flows easy enough for people to on board and start using and then be able to keep using um gas abstraction this is something I think very cool that we did like you can pay gas in whatever token uh the user has in its wallet so here is dollar it's USD but like even if you have some random meme coin that is listed on picnic and the our process for listings basically if it's in coin gecko is in picnic we just scrape that and and list the tokens we accept it uh so if you have basically among like 5,000 tokens you can use that to pay for guas so it is uh just fees you don't really need to teach the user that y you need to get a separate token to pay for this transaction the thing just works like uh you have Pepe or whatever you pay gas and pepe and it's all good but um any questions here so are you abstract in exchange for them then yeah we we actually hold the pepy and say sell it later so and we we settle with the pay Master yeah and connected the previous slide as well so like do you did you find that you needed any kind of uh regulatory approval to real a product like this because it's like quite a lot of money handling in like at at like 20,000 foot overview I'm just curious how the regulator saw it yeah we see ourselves as a a tech provider mostly all the things we do you could do without us for the most part yeah and so it's still like not very clear what we need and what we don't uh at some point I think it will probably get regulated now I think there's a lot of gr on I think that's there's a there there's still an opportunity for us like uh being on custodial U uh not being regulated if we were to hold uh users money uh perhaps we should the regul the ster the St ISS yeah exactly yeah yeah and is that a barrier to adopt usdc for example is that a betterer to adopt usdc as well or uh because I saw you on Euro and and ra but but we could adopt usdc but the thing is that Circle does not provide a dedicated ramping service like uh monium for end users um they have as far as I know they only have like ramping for institutional institutions so if you want to do like a a retail uh uh solution we would need to find another provider provider that could do the kyc yeah like a moonay or something like that to unwrap people yeah and they would have a fee on it it would not be probably one to one makes sense thank you so like uh the relationship with the stable coin is is directly with the user so the user transfer money to the stable coin provider and the stable coin provider mints directly in the user wallet it's not like yeah that we see over there it from like youate one the iban we see here it's one for wallet and that relationship is directly from the user with the stable coin provider the stable coin provider has an e-money license in Europe and then they provide the iban to the user yeah so uh it gets created as soon as the kyc is approved uh sometimes it's like within a minute to three sometimes it takes a bit more um I was curious to know if the kyc was made with the Sam sub or do you use any other uh third party provider kyc is always handled by the partners so uh the Brazilian real stable coin has its kyc flow the Euro stable coin has its kyc flow and one of the problems we're getting is like how to make those people talk together because it's quite bad you ask to make your use your kyc for every product and especially with rwas and things like that that can be really painful so yeah those Solutions of like reusing K sharing KY that's really valuable just want to add one thing there because there are so many things that we need to do to improve uh as a company as a and as a as ethereum and and and crypto as a whole and this kyc sharing scheme is one of them like how are we going to manage identity and if we think like this is just one use case of stable coin on off ramping but then you you you can plug in for example debit cards and if the debit card provider is different from the on ramping solution will you need to do another kyc for the debit card so it doesn't make sense so we need to find a solution where like the kyc shared would still decentralize and everything it's a big problem yeah just uh a ux thing that I we found has been really irritating is for stable coins because they always they they're not they don't exactly Peg do the users get confused as to why they're why they even see that second amount and like what that means and how do you explain that to them it it is indeed a problem um we solved it somehow like by the stable the stable coins that um have direct on and off ramping we just packed it to the to the value because they do have they are packed in fact because if you have 100 eoes and you want to withdraw 100 EUR e you're going to get1 e so they are essentially packed uh they might not value one the same in dollar terms when you swap them into a DEX for example but that's another issue that's another problem that you youve mixed with slippage we've mixed with liquidity but we just packed it into the UI and it worked cool thank you okay nice happy to see some questions thank you um so it's a two-part question the first part being that uh can you go oh yeah okay no that slide yeah so now that you see here it's uh Dollar in usdt on the op Network and the resulting uh currency is op on on the op Network now if I want to change and take it on a different network so does it act like a swap or a bridge or both that's you do both like look that yeah it's the same okay so um so that's one part of the question and the second part of the question is that uh can I switch from one uh currency like the euro to maybe a dollar or to maybe an Indian rupe or whatever is available at that moment can I switch between two Fiats can I uh transfer money between two Fiats and uh how do you keep up with the exchange rate of the day that is my question yes uh so the best use case we have for that like we have ramps both in Brazil and Europe um and you can like on ramp RIS you get BL which is a Brazilian ra stable coin and you can swap on chain brla for E the way that happens that's USD c bar liquidity pool on un swap V3 there is a liquidity pool between I think usdc and U also on un V3 or other deck someone routes make all the badge and you go from R to euros and then you off ramp the whole thing takes five minutes is three minutes is some somewhere on that range it depends a bit on how long Banks process and a really cool thing is it's really fast cheap and and the wax is really B is faster than wise it's cheaper than wise and yeah one like we received some it's more of a bet perhaps um for the new user we implemented a separated Swap this is like the complex swap that J is showing perhaps um we have a dedicated swap just for Fiat that we that we're trying to experiment but exactly like user that on ramp with Brazilian Riza want to offramp with Heros and vice versa they could use the specialized swap just for Fiat so this can be like a money exchange used case also yes it could sure thank you so much okay um and here we we also experimented like the last thing I was talking about just to go back is you can pay gas with whatever token you have um and one thing that usually helps quite a bit is is free transactions um so like we got gas sponsorship on polygon and base uh it helps uh users are happy not to pay but surprisingly uh people like it we didn't see that much difference in in volume for free gas on the cheap chains uh so this ux is so so good that like people use it and it is not a blocker as you would expect maybe in in a different setting just because you don't need to educate about anything on the Chain a lot of people are chain chain abstraction might be off what what the current meta on that is but what I'm calling chain abstraction is basically this list of assets it's mixed like the all evm chains we support the are mixed here you cannot know beforehand which chain are you settling like our mental model there is like our typical user isn't knowledgeable enough and not sophisticated enough to to Really Care and and and to be able to make an informated decision on where to to settle that trade how to do it so it's just abstract and it's like what do you want to buy you click and you buy and and the thing works uh you can still see the chain here so like above you can see polygon below you can see Arbitron but the the key thing here is like how do you avoid the user to think which chain I think it's a really bad uh ux pattern to to so like which chain do you want and there will be users that will be like what is a chain I don't know what that is what do I do here and and just making the thing work with sensible defaults uh that you can execute and give the the user the token the user wants I think that's that's a good way to think about this this problem it's like a good pattern uh and one important thing uh we did here is to avoid high gas costs uh we have a bunch of warnings if you're using ethereum M at on on picnic just because of of the gas cost it's it's fairly expensive especially for Brazil which is not it's a developing country so like income is not that high and it is really expensive to trade there and even with the warnings people trade there and get really upset when they realize they paid a lot in fees so it's actually quite hard to trade on ethereum Mad on picnic you need really to want to do it you need to select manually the the the chain it it is not the main flow we use um transaction batching um The appr Proven swap thing this like we approve every swap for the exact amount the the swap is taking place but it's it doesn't few anything it's just a proven swap it's you just click the button everything happens be behind the scenes and one interesting episode we saw earlier this year um WiFi was hacked uh we use lii a lot but as we never did like infinite approvals or approvals that were larger than the the Swap and it's always Atomic so there there were no allowances made uh no user funds were compromised although like one of the main uh Partners we use was hacked pretty badly and this is a like the the way I think about this is sometimes you solve for problems that we're not really thinking about I don't think like doing approve every transaction was a deliberate decision but we're not thinking about that when we chose to to build an accountable protction that that decision was mostly because of U but once you get more flexibility to to build what you want you also get some interesting benefits for example the the safety thing uh other things uh we did on the product that I think could be worthwhile we have redundancies for everything so I mentioned we use lifi for swaps but we also use uh XY we use squid router we use zerox we use the bridge and it's really nice to to be able to like if something breaks you get a second layer uh Pedro who is helping answer his the questions he used to work in aviation so it's a very appreciated background to think what happens if something fails so and that's super key uh for what we're doing stable coin liquidity was something that we had to think quite a bit about not uh our main focus but uh at first like we we basically bootstrap the BL usdc pool on polygon and we spent a lot of time like how do we ensure this thing gets pegged and how do we get liquidity people people and and the way we solve that really was with growth so the the stable coin thing started working well as soon as we we got growth then there was fees and the now we have some telegram groups that people are up the pool and some nice organic things some Community that's forming around that because people can make money with that now so incentives still work uh we overbed for gas as a default like explaining to users that oh now the network got more expensive that you need to send another transaction I think that's a a very bad pattern so just making things work and and uh not overloading the user with uh decisions and information that the user will probably not understand I think it's uh valuable uh one thing that happen with a few more webam native users is people would get a smart account address and they would send money to that uh but it could be in a chain that were not applied so for example in this product went live it was polygon only we launched first there because of the stable coins and people would send usdc to arbitrum but we're not apply there and it was held to to get the funds back B basically they had to wait until applied on arbitrum uh so for this kind of thing getting people to choose the chain and then check if that asset will be shown in the UI some friction there uh helped a lot with uh customer support uh yeah one you want no one cool thing like uh once we started getting a bit more traction and and getting more users customer support has been very very very insightful to to get the like uh common mistakes like people yeah sending money to contract address of the token and all those repeat mistakes uh you need to build build a lot of the the UI and the product to avoid that that thing and it has become that that we have been able to pretty consistently get uh tickets down um and yeah and from all those things those small details and the tweaks I think we got to a place that uh it's a product that is competing at least in some very specific use cases against centralized exchanges uh there are people moving money out of binance and and putting into picnic that's a real thing and those are not sophisticated users for the most part those are not people that would be here or uh would be Technical and super deep on the space is just users that they want to buy crypto um and one thing I think it would be valuable here is is to get a sense on what kinds of users we are seeing using picnic and what we're they are doing and how they're interacting and thinking about our product uh so like this is volumes that we do uh 98.6% of the volumes we see in the platform now is swaps uh 1.4% is yielded uh interesting thing is we started with yield that was the first isation or first hypothesis that people want yield in dollars like if we give them 10% a year on on dollar yield it will explode not really uh people ask a lot of questions if you offer them 10% a year or or even more at some point we had 20% like what is Smart contract risk like how how do I think about this and it's a a very hard quest to to actually deliver this to non-sophisticated users uh at some point in time we added swaps and that's where we started seeing traction we double down on that and that that's what's working now uh and to give you a sense on like what people are swapping to the most SWA token is the Brazilian ra stable coin that's BR uh it's the most OP because if people want to sell and offramp they will all go through BR so that's like a one way path uh second is USD uh so that's uh a lot of the usage us USC you have us in second USC in fourth and there's also usdc e that's on polygon so among the top 10 you have three usds stable coins so big use case and then uh repap Bitcoin uh rep salana eth uh Paul pandle but it's uh very similar to the distribution profile you you see at the Brazilian centralized exchange people buy a lot of usdc but they they buy a lot of majors and all the other token so it's similar users I think uh that's the way you have been inter in we run some surveys uh we do that every couple months to get a a a post on on how people are feeling about the product how what's working well what's not uh we did one a few weeks ago this is is quite recent uh had 100 people answering 61% of the the people that uh answered they said they would be very disappointed if we stopped uh building the product um so that and this has been a trend so I think we have been able to to really get the to users that value the the product and really use it frequently and when we ask them like name the the top three things you like the by far the most like thing is easy of use and I think this can be break down into many many different things it's like it's the easiest way to on ramp the easiest way to offramp if you're slightly more sophisticated user but it goes to like it's the easiest way to buy tokens in an no custodio way or is it the easiest way to buy brat on Bas or anything that is a bit less supported by traditional centralized exchanges um low fees so one of the things really bullish on Defi and actually the reason why I got really I decided to Pivot my career to Def is that um defi is T can be very efficient we were able to build this product with five people now we have seven but this is a product that had like a few thousand tokens a few Chains It's a quite complex product but because we are building on chain that like we just average the infrastructure and it's it's an order or two orders of magnitude uh easier to build than something that that would be centralized and one of the direct consequence of that is you can charge cheaper fees for your users you're not spending that much to maintain it that's that's so cool that's like that five people built this from scratch essentially how long do it take you uh it take a lot more time I think pivoting and find what to build yeah but like when you decided on this last version like how long did it take you to get to today um we we actually decided to do this uh on devcom bota which was what two years ago two years ago yeah okay very cool we after Bogota we launched it I think six months afterwards like perhaps in March or April of uh the next year so it's been perhaps um an year and a half very very cool so another question more like a use case question than anything else so let's say I want to buy property in Romania which can accept Euros in bank accounts would your would I be able to send for example usdc to your wallet then convert it to EUR e and then off-ramp it in Romania yes you would oh yeah that is awesome man like that I I was hoping that would be the answer but like yeah and the kyc requirements like are decided by the local partner right okay cool awesome thanks guys this is great when monium and BR are issuing the currency there's a gas cost right uh do how how how does it work like do they subsidize the gas cost well when they're issuing and also do they charge anything like let's say I deposit 100 high do I get 100 like how does it work if you deposit 100 re you get 100 stable coins and you off ramp that you have 100 it's like for free you won pay and they pay for the gas fee themselves they pay for the gas fees and they pay for the bank transfer fees as well on Monaro as well monum as well and the way that works and why that's sustainable is that they make money on the yield on so they can subsidize the gas fees and the bank costs as well MH yeah uh I saw that you mentioned Bitcoin but it's rapid Bitcoin right because you don't support Bitcoin native yes it's rap Bitcoin uh we are hopeful in a few months we'll be able to allow withdrawals to bitcoin wallets so there's some cool intense stuff happening that should allow yeah U and maybe some Bitcoin l2s evvms that that's one of the key things that users ask for um it's super on the road map uh any other questions comments okay and thank you for the questions it's it's it's nice oh okay sorry how did we get to the percentages that is a survey like a Google forms we sent to users and they answered and yeah that was their answers and then we do some categorization work yeah uh yeah so low fees uh cost is something that we we are Keen to deliver and to be very competitive on as well uh speed that was actually quite surprising for for us I think that like it takes longer than uh centralized exchanges for for a few use cases you you need to wait for uh transactions to confirm but still like depending on what you're comparing to the the experience is very smooth right the on ramp is super fast and think works well uh noncustodial is in there uh but uh it's relevant I think it's quite related to ease of use if you talk with people and have conversations that it is a a strong component on on why they differentiate us from other services and the main way we have been Distributing is focusing on on being no custodial I think that's the clearest differentiating factor it's like if picnic sees is to exist users can still retrieve funds there's a path for them to to recover everything even without us and the on and off ram thing it's also quite cited uh one thing we we're enjoying doing is see seeing the evolution of uh those answers cross time so the there's three bars here there's a light gray on top not sure on how clear that is but e of used for example it was below 40% in May uh now we're over 70% um so like that that's the key thing we have been hammering on is like how to make this thing easier to use and yeah users are seeing that and then based on their feedback we have been iterating adjusting the product to get there so it's it's nice to see that's becoming easier to use uh low fees is also improving I think most of that was probably due to liquidity uh we fixed improved the stable client liquidity and and it got cheaper to use speed is is quite a new thing and interesting I don't understand that that deeply um noncustodial I think that that's an education piece and and people are starting to to appreciate that but that's the general Sense on how this is evolving and when we ask users to like what they would like to see uh on picnic now uh there's native Bitcoin is is the second thing that people ask more often uh now that we have delivered a swap use case I think quite well people are asking for yield quite a bit so it is the most ask for future uh how to to I get yield products and there is a bunch of different yeld things in there and also credit card uh which was interesting thing we found out and cool thing if we see this over time um the main thing that used to be asked was like please add more more networks and more tokens so this the more chains and more cryptos it used be the gray bar at I don't know 16% of users were asking that we made it uh multi-chain we added like eight different chains and then it dropped to the very smallish uh orange bar so it's it's cool to see that like uh the the features actually uh Drive user perception and and drive user behavior um do you have any insight uh into the type of user that's replying to this question so you said you have 50% using external wallet 50% using the embedded wallets within the app do you know uh where these lines in terms of uh the replies to the to both questionnaires have you run that no I we don't know it specifically but like in general we have a very low usage rate of external wallets like 15% uh 15 yeah so pretty much the majority is like email or Google so we assume pretty much those are the same thing the same people thank you uh I also see in this chart that demand for a mobile app is that a mobile app that's going down and usually we see mobile apps as the fundamental barrier we talk about it a lot by normal you normal users they're not adopting cryptos because it's hard for them to temp to get there and also in major developing markets especially India where I come from everybody is on mobile and so is much of Southeast Asia maybe Latin America uh in the markets that you seem to operate why do you see this to be the case yeah our Theory here on why people are asking less for a mobile app is because the got a lot better so I think in a sense that they were asking for a mobile app because the ux was not that good so they yes it's it's 50/50 yeah like um uh 50% desktop 50% mobile generally in a protocol if I'm not mistaken like the rule of thumb is a third mobile 2/3 desktop so since we're doing like a consumer app we have more mobile than desktop generally and it has been increasing right it used to be like 7030 or something like that I think the path forward is is mobile first and getting a mobile app is is very important either way for other reasons as well um anything you would like to comment here or and just to make the point of the single chain multi-chain thing uh this is basically when we launched the picnic in on more chains and you can see like uh we get incremental business line so there's a new volume that maybe wouldn't helpen otherwise if we didn't support more chains and yeah the the the way we we are thinking about this is like every time we solve one of these people will use it more so if we had native Bitcoin the bitcoiners that don't want to use picnic because they cannot withdraw to a Bitcoin wallet maybe they'll start to using it either because it's fast either because it's it's cheap or either because it's noncustodial it's better than centralized exchanges I think there's a a few different reasons why people connect to this product and okay any questions any other questions okay uh I live in Argentina it's very common to use uh Trum usdt uh have you thoughts about tackling that I didn't see it in the list and um I think could be an opportunity right yes uh trumbl in Brazil I I which is our Major Market I think is relevant but I think as far as I know Brazil because Argentina like due to the currency issues it's quite expensive so in Argentina it's much more expensive like the gas feas and so so it makes more sense to use TR so but in Brazil it's not that much bigger of a deal because if they were developing country they'll have the same kind of issues as Argentina so TR is not as big in there but it is Big you know like Rosel like it it is still quite expressive as well but we don't need to rely on that much because we don't need really really really cheap fees yeah and we we do receive requests about rum um uh but it has not got got to like uh a high priority in our discussions yet Perhaps it will be but right now we haven't yeah um yeah and this is the last session and the idea here is basically to talk about uh it is growing I think it's healthy but the thing we really really need to see is the the charts something like this right like growing 7% week over week and and and seeing the the real Mass adoption happen right like get this to to a meaningful a group of people like what we have now I think it's it's a good first step but there is a lot of work to be done and like the the way I see this this vertical this consumer def fighting uh the account abstraction for this that specific use case of doing similar things of what you do in a centralized exchange is for it to become the main way to handle crypto like uh I don't see any fundamental reasons why centralized exchanges should exist I think uh defi has a lot of issues a lot of very hard engineering problems to be solved uh but in the end of the day like for the end user if you get like a very easy way to have non-custodial wallets that's very cheap and you have access to pretty much any product you want what is the compelling case for using a centralized exchange uh I think we haven't got to that point now and there is a lot of work to do to to get there but once we get there uh we will see that chart so that chart I think is like if we solve the uxx issues the engineering issues and and deliver a really really compelling product I think we'll see like tremendous adoption and tremendous growth um and on the challenges side at least the things we see that that needs to be improved uh security is the one that's top of mind for me now uh the the way that people are interacting with picnic and and quite a few similar applications is still through email and like in the money business like in the banking business exchange business trust trust is is a very very very fundamental component like everything is based on trust people only use your product only use your service if they trust you and like not having like having a single point of failure I think it's it is quite bad so if the email gets compromised and you get compromised funds I I don't think that that will scale I don't think that will get to mass adoption because people will realize it it is not uh the best safety you could get so if you use a bank you get something that's much better than that uh so we have been spending some time on like how to improve this and how to like make redundancies recoveries uh like inheritance I think there's all that surrounding problems that needs to be solved that you can actually deliver uh something that has a lot of the benefits of noncustodial systems and distributed systems to the end user in a way that the the person doesn't need like to to spend a lot of time and and to to take a lot of responsibility of maintaining the security for for their own assets um education I think it's uh a big topic still so people want to export the private keys of smart contract wallets uh there's all those uh uh barriers of trust and and getting people to be comfortable with something that's different uh and like getting people off exchanges I think that's all a process uh we have been really focusing in producing content that's the main distribution Channel we have found is like find people that understand what we do and and can explain what we do in terms the their audiences understand and I think that's a fundamental pillar going forward is like how do we get this message cross and we get people to care about what we're building uh polishment is this is other improvements but I think mobile app as we said is uh a strong component uh you can get better a few safety tweaks it's you can get push notifications it's it's a better ux generally and I think it matters like having great UI having great animations I think that's great being fat uh and yeah things just work you don't have any cognitive overload costs is also one like liquidity is not that good still with the local stable coins uh you can do like $1,000 trades to two five if you go 10 20 50 not there yet so a lot of work to be done on that side as well and there is one way to think think about it we need to close gaps with centralized exchanges so we need to allow users to withdraw Bitcoin uh credit card is is something else as as we saw but like getting users to a point that there is no reason to use a centralized exchange and everything works as well or better uh using the centralized rails is the path to go forward here and at some point it will be better than saxes it will be safer it will be cheaper and you will be able to do more things than you would to be able to do in a centralized exchange and then I think the crypto natives maybe much earlier with 7702 but my mindset is like we push this thing we make it work for web 2 Natives and as the thing improves like 7702 and other cool things that are coming around it will get good enough that we go back to the one of the first slides that this technology is not really geared towards web Tre natives I think it will be good enough that even people that uh could do otherwise will say like okay I I would rather use the multisig with recovery and all those cool features that I don't need to worry about maintaining my seat phras or getting my own security set up and this thing is already all the main chains I use and has all the key protocols I use and it works fine but I think it's yeah step by step and building for the web to users those are the early adopters for this kind of technology and that that was it uh happy to take more questions and um picking up on the thr slide we don't need to go there but uh how are you folks monetizing on on the product like how can you be sure that picnic will be there tomorrow so on the monetization aspect it's still quite similar to to a centralized exchange we take a fee on swaps it ranges from uh 0.1% to 0.25% 0.1 single chain 0.25 uh cross chain uh um when we launch more vertical so if you launch credit card we'll get uh some Revenue there if launch yield we get some Revenue there so the way we have been thinking about monetization is like be very aggressive with cost because I think that's one of the Strategic advantages of building onchain but really building the product so you have many different uh revenue streams that on the whole you you can make money and make this a booming business any more questions okay I think we're done it was a pleasure uh thank you very much I hope you enjoyed it uh if you want to contact me I'll be happy to to share a bit more and yeah thank you for staying for one hour and a bit [Applause] thank you spee spe speee [Music] spee 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