# TOKEN2049: Navigating Crypto as a Venture Fund

- Channel: [TOKEN2049](https://streameth.org/token2049)
- Date: 2019-10-09
- Watch: https://streameth.org/watch/yt-cYbvHl5mLC4
- YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYbvHl5mLC4

## Transcript

we're gonna try to make this really interesting it fun so basically they have no idea what I'm gonna ask them we didn't coordinate or prep there's no like I don't ask me this question to give you you know to give you your money's worth of entertainment I think so I'll just start introduce myself and lots of clouds I'm the founding partner of 1kx we're berlin-based crypto fund and we invest exclusively in open source tokenized networks so we're kind of token maximalists and then I would yeah maybe each of you please take around two minutes to introduce yourself your fund what do you do maybe how are you special compared to other investors or anything that's relevant okay cool um so I would come first sorry for my low voice and so I got a really bad cold I started like two days ago thanks for the air conditioning here in Hong Kong and hi everybody my name is Toby Wong um so I'm a founding partner of like primitive ventures we are a full stack like crypto as a shooting company so I started my career like that eBay but that's when I discovered sue Crowe so like as a marketplace because the marketplace might be the most primitive type of like portico design because I you have to design all this repetition system and she said matching engine unless the father and so like during my eBay time as like a product manager and so so I learned like the skyrocketing sales number of less to grow and as well like that's so like that's how got my attention - so - the whole like crypto industry and so I was born and raised so I so I was born and raised just a penguin show also like Hong Kong is my second hometown and so on Cantonese so I moved to us at the age of like 20 and I just have four so for my master degree in like Carnegie Mellon University and and then like afterwards and moved to San Francisco area and then spent four years at eBay as a product manager and just a dream eBay time other than like other than discovering su-ro and like the other thing is my mom is a typical like Asian parent and so like she wants me to have like property all over Bay Area but it's extremely hard to move money like out of like mail in China because that we have decided very strict like capital control is that every people will so like like every individual headcount so it can only move up to so can like only transfer like up to 50,000 like US dollar every year so my mom has been trying to like ask that 20 different relatives I just said she moved money out for me like to buy houses and and in like after I discovered Sutro and I basically convinced my mom let you move like so basically to move money like through like Bitcoin and and then so it turned out I didn't use money like to buy house and I basically just I let my pick one this part there and my mom now is pretty happy because like like the like the solar at a very early down payment for like a housing lesser Francisco like now can't pay for like probably a lot of houses so like that is how I got into the whole industry and then like after that I spend four years at like dang capital like the HPC and I'll add so I let the fing tad marketplace and and then up watching investment there and and and so so like like late last year so I basically started my own venture with my co-founder or melter and like premier so that is so that is the primitive ventures so at primitive and I think we are kind of like different and because we are more like holding company so we can be extremely versatile and we are now linked to specific you know either equity or like token or like security or so or whatever so we can do a lot of like like operation or work as well like say first and we can use taking as a service and then we can even you lying house on incubation and just at dreamland spinning now because I so I think that the crypto cycle has been squeezed from like that softer traditional financial cycle is I like eight years and so now we are probably like 12 month as I want psycho so like if your overall fun psycho like gonna cover like people macrocycle and holding company gonna be like a much better life structure yeah sorry for too long my name is Cindy Leo and I'm the co-founder of two five six ventures we're an early stage investment fund and we spent out initially of an arbitrage fund late 2017 because I guess me and partner we had similar skill sets more in the venture building and venture investments so we were really interested in my pre ico bubble looking at exploring that a bit more I'm looking at what was like driving the market at the time and but like were there any like actual technological like fundamentals that were worth exploring so that was the reason that we initially spun out and between operating for a year and a half now and so I guess though what sets us apart from other crypto funds is that we have very very flexible mandate we look really closely at crypto market cycles and we invest more in like both top-down and bottom-up like analysis we have very I guess we can do like taking we do equity investments as well as token investments so we have a very flexible mandate to deliver on I guess a two-year cycle but I guess the special thing about us is that we're very we're digital native investors so we really look at it from the point of who is gonna be the main like users of the products that we're investing in so that's our main focus and but we have background I was previously in venture capital working in Korea and Shanghai good morning my name is Jehan Shu I'm the co-founder and managing partner of kinetic based here in Hong Kong we are an investment firm we have been investing for the past two and a half years in the blockchain space and everything from equities to token and we have participated in advisory services as well as OTC high frequency trading and structured products and currently those are areas of focus looking at investing across the board but definitely with an emphasis in on the equity side at the moment outside of kinetic and arguably more important I am the founder of the etherium meetup here in Hong Kong we're very happy to have a nice event last night as well as co-founder of the Bitcoin Association here in Hong Kong and then finally a co-founder of social Alpha Foundation which is a charity dedicated to providing no-strings grants to products using blockchain for social impact which i think is an area we should all be kind of thinking a bit more about yeah thank you also a side note for myself about myself so I'm also an investor I'm one of the funds so I'm gonna be basically the extremely opinionated that randomly is gonna throw and sort of his own statement in there as well so I think in 2014 2015 we had a bunch of people kind of saying yeah blockchain not Bitcoin and I think a lot of them really kind of regretted that turned out to not probably be the best the best strategy and my sense is that in 2019 we're seeing a lot of like equity not tokens and so my question is like it's not gonna be the equivalent like are there gonna be a lot of people really really regretting this in the future or is it actually a sensible shift to equity investments do they have an inherent advantages do traditional companies have inherited mattresses over these sort of loosely structured tokenized networks and whoever has the strongest opinion about this feel free to jump in first sure I'll take the first swing at it I mean absolutely we we don't regret any of our activities in the token space you know we were happy to kind of walk out with around 70% gains on our 2018 portfolio which was pure token at the same time the end of that sentence about you know whether you're investing in equity tokens is that for now right there are windows of opportunity for different types of assets and especially in our field that window is very dynamic just because we're focused on equity now doesn't mean that we won't continue looking at tokens and find the right entry points and especially the right areas of kind of valuing utility to back those tokens I think that's really what's been kind of challenging is to make sure and have the level of like de-risking your investment by having sufficient utility behind those networks efficient users that's what's still kind of in play equities safer mordy risk because you have a better sense of like how to value those assets behind it and then we'll see about security tokens the types of you know good inventory that comes to market but for sure we're not backing away from tokens for good it's just we think that there are really good opportunities in equity now if we start seeing better opportunities in utility tokens we'll look at those as well the way that we differentiate I guess like equity deals and more token open source network deals is the equity deals tend to have very strong a stronger cash flow and the there's kind of a clear value accrual to a holding company either a holding company or there is a revenue model that goes directly to one controlling party and we've seen we've seen a lot of deals come up this year that are more in that realm okay we're providing a developer tooling and we're taking fees on top of that that helped you gain access to this to a more open source network that might be more difficult to navigate on your own so kind of more servicing companies software-as-a-service companies it's like an example of that and on the token and equity I took inside I think for us what makes sense is more open source networks and we've haven't really seen a lot of smart contracts platforms being launched this year so in that sense I agree that there is also there's a different vendors of opportunities for both I think right now we're seeing more software developing tools as equity go a building like to access these office store networks but in the future you know we might see more and more open source networks start to issue their own tokens again but for us the real question really is where this value accrue where does value accrue is it is it an equity investment in the holding company that's holding tokens or is it an equity investment in a company that receives revenue from providing services or is it buying tokens that give you access to cash flow for you know an open source network with which with decentralized providers I would say not a centralized provider so that's the way that we kind of differentiate equity versus token investments you know I think that's from our perspective if you like a shitty project and making into equity light doesn't make you more valuable and so it's a same thing as like during like the last bubble and a lot of just say token a lot of like token projects and so the basis you say from the whole story like of my having like a token and and just for the purpose of only for the purpose of fundraising and so I think that if would you say like back to the basis that you said looking at the fundamental if your equity company like what is like equity equity is that so like equity is the residual value of that specific organization right and so so like if you cannot generate like decent cash flow and then so like how you can justify the value of your equity and so like a lot of our projects right now just that building XYZ for that developer and then so whatever like as a service and so I've been looking as fast space for so so for like last five years my dream my venture career like SAS has a very standard range of like PE ratio or just IPS ratio right and it's a very steady evaluation model and and and like if you're like beauty and like a SAS company and they're so how you're gonna accident right and so right now as Silicon Valley the first investment and so from so just a from so from the a prefers investment of like a SAS company like to either IPO or like merger acquisition for any exit like true average like six years right and are you really preparing for that and so I think the fundamental question here is not about equity or lie token test you set a value instrument or Josiah like a vehicle like that holds the potential so put a potential value accumulation and I think a more question here is some and then by where is that demand like where is that the demand coming from and then engines are talking about equity a lot of people has to say like interesting fantasize about there's I like a million developers out there or I probably are tens of like million and then the scale of our industry is so small so like like I can tell you is like the biggest application right now is trading its exchanges right what is the DA you of fly-by Nance and then Hobie and like okay yes this is da you the right metric or is it value trader because there's this conversation like there's that volume and so like we can let definitely talk about that but like if you are stalling like just equity like so I'm using that developer tool and just a software-as-a-service right if you want to surf developer and less surf like just say users out there and just I think about like the broader user base like gonna be traders and less speculators and inline speculators and like traders and exchanges that year you right now is anywhere from like like the biggest one right at the biggest high finance like the bike so like a finance level they are right now like the da USA like 10,000 to 25,000 and it is like definitely not like internet scale so I think when so if you're a building for like this whole so this whole ecosystem you have to think about what it is scale and what is the unit economic and then so that's how you can price your less service that properly and then so that that is how you can model your cash flow yeah I sort of my take is on it that it depends for what type of technology you building and what structure so if you're doing a layer one chain I really think token is exactly is the only way to go in a sort of non-profit kind of organization imagine Vitalik said like hey I'm gonna start start charging ten percent on the miners fees in the middle from me my shareholders like I don't think I'll forget ripple yeah well no I wouldn't call ripple really well it's a it's a nice edge case where they really shouldn't have a token but somewhere they have one and they keep selling it but but I think so if you want if you're trustless computing sort of infrastructure open-source token really the only way to go if you're if you build developer tools I really think equity is kind of the only way to go you're going to be very traditional company that's gonna you know charge developers around a month to make development a little easier I think you've raised a valid point that you know if you're only targeting blockchain developers your market at this moment is a little small it might expand a lot I think also what we're seeing is a little bit the shift to equity was a little bit investor driven I would say so 2017 made a lot of you had a lot of new rich crypto money and they were very happy to invest in other tokens and so a lot of people said hey Mike how's her phrasing capital is actually drastically reduced I'm gonna try to raise money for something that's kind of out there for new lay one chain etc that really just has a token and it's very easy to raise money then sort of at some point after 2017 there weren't like a lot less new rich people so I think that kind of easy sort of token money went away and the majority of funding right now is VCS a lot of them have LPS meaning that their agreement with their investors doesn't allow them even to buy tokens so we see that a lot of that drive towards equity is is actually is the investor driven it comes from Macy's and that's why also we've now seen a lot of sort of these developer tool type of companies come out because that's it's easier for them to race I think another interesting point is like I don't know if you start seeing this that these are essentially protocol teams or you know layer one teams they're not really business people and it's far far far from ready from an enterprise to saying okay I'm gonna base my infrastructure on it so we're starting to see the first ideas of these protocol projects actually initiating a fundraise for completely separate and a for-profit kind of equity company that just commercializes it so it's a kind of it would be more of a ripple but ideally kind of like a separate company that just makes easy software integrations and it's actually very very good at talking to banks and talking to a large corporates have you guys seen any of that have you for example invested maybe in a layer one chain and now our funding like equity companies that are doing that on top that are commercializing the protocol seeing a lot of them I think I mean there's a number of teams who are you know kind of here raising talking about it the model I think we saw it even as far back as I don't even know with Lightspeed who was Della's kind of business team doing visit of they were raising like what year-and-a-half two years ago something like that we're seeing that model I think over and over it'll be interesting to see the types of valuations that they come up with as a commercial company building services on top of like a you know a public platform because I think that investors will still hold them to the same types of you know metrics and same types of KPIs as everyone else regardless the fact that they're building on top of essentially their own platform in my mind it might even be harder for them to kind of achieve the types of valuations that they're looking for just because they're sitting on arguably a goldmine of tokens yeah it'll be interesting I think it's a good battleground like does this underlying protocol actually really enable I get 10x 100x improvement over something else to be honest one of the few cases I've seen as for example life peer I don't know if it's like this should be the video transcoding so anyone in the world can transcode a video which you need if you're live streaming the video it needs to be adjusted to the format on my cell phone em for my bandwidth that's computationally very very expensive and right now you can buy it for $150 from AWS for stream for 24 hours and just because they open it up in a protocol way that anybody could try it turns out that some Bitcoin GPU miners that have these GPUs that can mine this for 37 cents so imagine you going from $150 to 37 cents in electricity cost so I think these are the first ones we're starting to see that we actually can see Wow holy that really is like this sort of ever promise you know it's gonna change the world it's gonna make things a lot better and I think it makes sense to actually create semi independent companies maybe just some entrepreneurs come up and just take a spread man if I can charge like now $75 for it and and my cost base is gonna be like maybe $1 that's funny very very profitable so that's kind of our take then there's also a question yeah these ecosystem funds does that work or should it actually be attractive enough the protocol that independent kind of companies come up on it like have you seen ecosystem funds really work no yeah yeah it's kind of early though yeah potentially yeah I think that another question is that mercenaries are as missionaries if you you know and this is something about software engineers or a few engineering professions one of the few professions where the top 1% is really 20 times better than the 99% of beneath it and a little bit the concern is that if you have an ecosystem fund you basically get mercenaries that means it's going to be some Enterprise developer who honestly is gonna be in the lower end of that and what you really need is you need to attract those 1% and they're not necessarily driven by money so much one thing sort of one argument for equity is that yeah tokens you know I have zero rights I can't do anything least if I invest in equity I have some control do you have any like have you experienced for example do you have any staff toe current founder that really abused his his ability to do anything someone pulled a shady move on you you really have like have you experienced someone where founder literally totally exercised that right to do whatever he wants because yeah we have some projects that raised a billion dollars and visually if they want to pay themselves out the personal dividends they can they have no shareholders right and if you have any experience with that do you really think that you have more rights and more control as an equity holder in practice so so let's just adding on to the equity versus like token thing right and I think there are a few paths like that gonna evolve like difference and so I'm early investor in like the cash and the cosmos and like both token project and they have like a company behind it as well so like that's a very typical like duo system like Z cash had so has the C cash foundation and like has a C cash company and like cosmos has the cosmos like interchange foundation and also like the cosmos company but so that's the tenement and so I think like one potential past life for all this at Leo on or just say like just a general purpose like portico and so like bye-bye like if they have like proved by the viability of their life protocol layer thing and and then so like they're like back-end companies so can actually raise independently and then by like doing like traditional I on enterprise so but enterprise software offering and so like that's a very so like that's like especially true for less the cash and like cosmos like because that there are River so they're like very specialized in so in their own domains and like that's one thing so I think what either is the equity towards token or like token towards equity or like or just that completely independent like gosh it doesn't matter and and then like talking about the governance and so whether equity investment has more rights or like token investment has more rights and I think like the aims are gonna be truthful and so if you are like a token founder or like if you're like token investor and like token founder is more like a so I would say it's like a mayor of like a mini city right and so it's more like a captain and like because you are so like just like batalik and like he has no like basically decision-making power for the whole if you're in foundation but like he has the influence right and so I think like if you can lead without authority so that is the one of the primary quality of you being like a good like token founder and it's the same thing for like a token investor so we as a token investor and we always see this as you know like congressman or like congresswoman or just a diplomat's like for the entire community and so that that's how you can influence like the founding team or either or like just at the collab project members and and and and just at the quarter community and like even though there's no rights like set in the terms or just said just I have any so have anything as like a constitution level thing and I think that different open source the foundations have a different like decision making process and just a proposal Josiah proposal making process and and and so that's definitely a very experimenting for for like how to organize that good I mean also the original sort of ICO the idea was that you raised in ether it's a smart contract usually 20 tokens your ether are visible everyone knows the wallet and every move that goes out the team makes a good effort to kind of document and sort of have to apparently it doesn't work if you're creating a layer one chain and you're raising twenty million dollars in cash that kind of transparency is gone I will say though that as an investor does feel nice that if you if you do equity investments you know hey here's a board resolution that approved actually the raises of our salaries right and we actually have some transparency wears on token projects but like the thing is I at least for Valley and early-stage equity investment does not have a lot so light does not come with a lot of like very intrusive rights as well so if you look at the most common terms like is they as I said present a safe and I sit like safe is the like the origin of SAP tray but if you look at oranjee no save term and it's a very founder friendly term so I think the whole ethos of like early stage investment is being founded friendly and so let there's some there's like gonna you up and and so like but like we really see any like class-action like any like lost you or gains that early-stage founder so um I actually don't see like so there's I probably like very part in line so if I the founders are scammers and and like things like that so you might be able to do something but but but i but like the cost gonna be really hide as well yeah and i think i mean in my experience both equity in tokens either way if you have that button type founder that wants to scam you or escalate things they can do that in equity or neither so your legal recourse you have some inequity but in practice it just turns out that you spend a lot of money to get probably like twenty thousand dollars back and so it's kind of useless anyways i think in this seed stage you really don't have that many rights anyway it's trust base you have to choose the right people and its involvement based i think especially that you you're actually you're your power of influence comes from your kind of initiative of getting involved and having the right relationship and really providing value to the founder so for example i'm i'm in early investor in parody well the Beckman was called ëthe core right so I helped to angel earth core I don't have many rights as an early investor even though it's an equity and I definitely don't have any rights as a polka dot holder who is the you know follows that model of the kind of tech provider to to polka dot but because of the relationship you know you have a bit more inroads you have a bit more kind of ways to to kind of help guide things so I think it's less about that at the seed stage maybe later in stages when you're in you know private equity like larger rounds you know DCE rounds like that the destruction the governance of the rights take a bit more weight and you can kind of exercise a little bit people aren't really flexing their muscles at the scene yeah and I think I mean yes we can do that because we're full-time professionally active in the space and we're the network and we spend time with these people I think for the public sort of I co-funding type I still think it's a it's a potentially great tool but I think then you should ideally and that was the original idea where he said yes we actually it's safe enough for retail normal people that don't have time to spend time with the founders that they have some sort of structure like okay it's an open wallet anyone can see what's going on they have to sort of answer or then sort of the the ico where things are paid out in tranches if the team sort of token holders vote like okay we we've made enough progress we give you more money but I think for the very very early stages especially where you know for two years you won't have a product it seems to me that professional investors might be like somewhat better let's say like be honest and and so that first off or like this is my contract based and found racing it's like so it's not completely doable in like current if you're in smile contract because I so there's a lot of automation that like if you're in smile contract cannot do you like based on like event-driven or like I'm driven thing and so at that's a technicality Park and then second thing is I think for most of the retail investor many of them even don't know how to use that so like many of them even don't know how to use the Explorer and I really don't think that they have enough like like just I know how to say even though everything is on smart contra is a multi-state wallet blah blah blah and I really don't think they have the competence and just such you basically trace everything by themselves and then and then so if I mean so like just that back to the basis of like crowdfounding right and so are you really going into this I nearly really like detail of like was three like was to rise like when so so if Europe so if you were putting money for any like Kickstarter like pre-order and just as simply ask that question right and I think depends on the amount of money so people don't care what's going on but like they care about your own investment just that they're like just a capital a so it depends one was the amount of money and if it's by like ten twenty dollar it might be fine but like if so if for anything go over like a few thousand so like they can be a problem and so that's why I so that that's why I still think we should have a proper overarching like governors and just overarching like governance and front you said right spective and just slide right away decide crowdfounding like behavior and on the flip side as well we're talking about token holders rights especially in more proof of state networks where token holders actually you know have the right to govern certain things like development updates I think there is more than their token holders have more rights than you think especially in open source networks I've seen in smaller cap smaller cap coins where people accumulate very large positions of essentially like activists positions in one small camp coin and like threaten or blackmail the founders to you know that there are listening yeah so I think there it goes both ways right like you can't do that with equity but you can do it in I guess a public market with tokens and so I guess on the flip side we see extra token holders have more rights than we might think alright so this in the right power so you can buy see threaten them that you're gonna dump the price or all right interesting I do actually think also there is this sort of public pressure that teams are expected to be very public they're supposed to be in the dis court and the telegram anybody can say anything in there so there is actually a lot of pressure on the founders in my experience from their community expectations so I do think they really care about that that sentiment of the community does affect them very deeply on the psychological level as well so I think there are some sort of indirect kind of rights and and ways to influence as even as a sort of public token holder yeah briefly maybe there was this whole expectation of security tokens or the new thing I'll just ask you what what happened to that before I give my opinion on that I think there was a it was a bit cart before the horse I think you know everybody was hoping that there would be another financial opportunity with a wave of security tokens which you know hasn't really materialized but the way that I always kind of think about it is it's not a wave it's the ocean beneath where the real value is I think that the eventual eventual kind of tokenization of the entire you know kind of capital markets will eventually happen whether or not we're freely trading them through wallets or whether or not it's in the background I do see that you know we invested in shares post which I think is doing a great job of trying to bring some of that as a licensed you know platform by the SEC but it's gonna take a lot more time so I was very bearish about it when everybody was you know when there was a lot more hype around it but literally in the last month I become slightly more excited about it even here in Hong Kong because we're starting to see you know these real estate transactions come a lot more of them and what's been interesting is that the institutions some of the larger real estate companies some of the larger real estate conglomerates and investors are paying attention and actively engaging they've been a lot more nimble than I've expected one example not on the tokenization side specifically but here in Hong Kong there's a government aren't semi-commercial government R&D arm called ass tree and they partnered with Bank of China as well as new world now new world Development is Hong Kong's one of if not Hong Kong's largest kind of real estate conglomerate multi-billion dollars and they got together and did a real estate purchase platform blockchain based and it's a stone's throw away from tokenization that kind of institutional adoption is interesting and could move the needle and that's why I'm slightly more excited about it in the the medium term not the near term yeah yesterday I met with the project out of the U that basically makes it's an in NFT out of apple stocks for example it's life it's on the theorem anyone in the world except Americans can buy it with a whitelisted wallet address I think there's still some challenges because for me the security token itself it's not so interesting but it's interesting what you can then do with the token and they basically have access to the whole derivatives kind of decentralized finance space around a theorem right so you could actually use that as collateral for example a maker I think there's still a little bit of issues we're okay right now you can only send it to another whitelist of the theorem address that's okay why seed but I think once you have identity solutions maybe on a larger scale that that the edges with exit stations okay I'm not American and I'm over 18 and I can buy these things that you can then also sort of enable these tokens to be used in small contracts I'm a very commonly just I probably know my barrel as teo because on my security token is like just a security period right and the valuation for less security doesn't change and like the PlayBook is all published by sec and so like that's what if your investor and i recommend you don't invest in the security token itself but like investing like potential a platform that we will you know issue or or to such trade security okay so that might be a viable path and because i for any just say asset just as just a security token asset but the underlying asset like either is a birthday or like art or like whatever largest SMP 500 and and and so you have the alternative channel but you bite the same asset underneath and then also like the right now let the current problem i would say it is like there's a clear like average selection because like all this i premium asset less difference and i premium birthday or like premium jewelry or arts and like premium life stock and so they already have existing marketplace or like a seasoned channel like like where you can tray or buy or light rinse that like fish in the list and and then so like that's why the current sto like marketplace or let's channel like it's kind of you know like very premature all and let this just I know enough liquidity and like there's a lot of promise of like global access that you should buy access to like globally Coutinho it's actually not proven at all so like that's why like the episode light as a supply-side so it's like kind of like mediocre asset or to say like like just a B or C level ass array so that there's a clear average selection so I see from the asset so from just I've simply from the supply side and then the men's I and I think there's I definitely demand and so like that's why like at the end of day ultimately in like 20 like 30 years and and so we should see all the asset gonna be tokenized but but line now is just way too early yeah another question regarding token investments sorry there's um you know there especially people got very enthusiastic about investing in tokens maybe they pulled the trigger very quickly now there's a bear market they need money so we have funds that are actually suing projects because they're not listing so there's basically this dynamic that is a project you say I'm probably not gonna list because how many people are really going to buy my token on the exchange on the other hand there are some some investors that are really desperate for liquidity and and and so yeah so the first question is like have you have you heard this as well what do you think about this and yeah should projects like actively decide when to list can they time the market or should they just like wait until we know we start having another bubble or something I think we're seeing a lot of staffs being traded I guess close networks for a fraction of the the prices that they initially erased at and actually think that's positive for the market because when you have more market valuations it it's it's a fair evaluation of what the project should actually be worth and keep in mind these are a lot of them projects that are waiting to launch as well they're waiting for good times to launch I think in terms of keeping projects accountable for when they launch like but that should still be like in the main road map I think keeping projects accountable to when they intend it to list or you know the system holding markets that's a bit over a more a tougher question because keeping like market sentiment is actually quite important like for for certain projects but I do think that projects need to brave I guess the the fear of listing and potentially not gaining market sentiment because then to to to gain I guess a fair evaluation of what their projects should actually be training it even though to investors that might that might be not a very good sign that a projects gonna be successful and it's gonna divert about returns to us I think it's it's overall to the ecosystem like some projects that raise too much meat to simply like start trading and receive a fair market valuation alright thank you very much everyone that's it times up and thank you