# Beyond DAOs: Evolving Human Organization by Abigael Titcomb, Eva Beylin (Devcon5)

- Channel: [Devcon](https://streameth.org/devcon)
- Date: 2020-10-09
- Duration: 1:02:51
- Topics: blockchain, smart contracts, distributed ledger, ethereum
- Watch: https://streameth.org/watch/yt-gvlxxkiZNDw
- YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvlxxkiZNDw

## Description

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https://archive.devcon.org/archive/watch/5/beyond-daos-evolving-human-organization

The hegemonic approach to human coordination (i.e. nation states, corporations) is being challenged as those underserved and disempowered by the current system search for more open, adaptable, and representative solutions.
With the emergence of DAOs, decentralized governance, and token economics, we now have a new design space to engineer incentives and mechanisms that align human behavior. Projects like Aragon, DAOstack, Fairmint, Gnosis, Gitcoin, Commons Stack, and MolochDAO are all building, experimenting, and testing new ways to fund and govern human organizations. We want to build organizations that encourage sustainability over profit, stimulate regeneration instead of scarcity, and eliminate stakeholder misalignment seen in current cooperative models.
To truly impact those outside the Ethereum ecosystem, we should be strategically aligning experimentation around counter-hegemonic goals and visions. Only then will we be able to move 'beyond DAOs' into an evolved future of regenerative, sustainable, and cooperative human organization.
This workshop aims to:

-Spark discourse and discussion on what future we're ACTUALLY building towards
- Get those experimenting with new organizational models in the same room to discuss collaborative strategy, insights, and roadmaps
- Workshop common frameworks and visions for new organizational models to eliminate project silos, form counter-hegemonic strategies, and move the whole ecosystem forwards.

Speaker(s): Abigael Titcomb
Skill level: Beginner
Track: Society and Systems


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Learn more about devcon: https://www.devcon.org/
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Devcon is the Ethereum conference for developers, researchers, thinkers, and makers. 
Devcon 5 was held in Osaka, Japan on Oct 8 - 11, 2019.
Devcon is organized and presented by the Ethereum Foundation, with the support of our sponsors. To find out more, please visit https://ethereum.foundation/

## Transcript

[Applause] we're coming we did not expect this interest we are simply facilitators and will not be speaking very much that not all about you guys and collaborating we are trying to solve the coordination problem by having this workshop [Music] hey cool should we get started yeah okay so as Eva said we're just going to talk for a brief second to give you and they trim - why you put on this workshop why we're giving you guys the space to talk a little bit on our thoughts and then probably this session is gonna go so if you don't know where you are this is a workshop on doubts its penalty on down evolving cute human organization so we're gonna be talking all things Dallas and everything wonderful and horrible about this so as I said we're just gonna run really quickly fifteen minutes the format of the session is a workshop so we're gonna have you guys square feelings with each other it's something that you can come in and out of but it would be great for you as a saleable session it's an hour and a half so it's not too long we promise that it will probably be okay okay so let's just start off with why we're holding this session so even I think that doubts can be more than multi six and that's probably I mean I hope not a hot take but dolls are representing this really cool thing that we're all talking about I mean that's why are all our room here today this is something that is really interesting but also like really think so the what inspired this workshop so I guess I wanted to go through why you can't ask any more than multi six and from our observation in the space what we really think is happening and pitch that's you guys see what you think so we leave with a demonic approach to human coordination is being challenged as those underserved and disempowered by the current system serves for more open adaptable and representative solutions so with the emergence of Taos this weird things that we're all building decentralized governance token engineering we now have this new design space to reengineer incentives and my physicals and that's really cool but the word down kind of sucks I mean breathing self it kind of means all of these different things that don't really line up and so it causes a lot of confusion it causes a lot of inability to work with each other and it causes this whole space to be completely not accessible to anybody who can actually use this technology to solve their problems these people who are being distant is powered and underserved by our traditional power structures right so um this is just a little bit of you know the Dalits that are this base we have everything from grant outs to people solving climate change with cows to people helping political candidates meaning themselves with to the office and so there's a lot of different things happening and it's kind of a lot to handle um but one resounding thing that is kind of connecting all of these is that they're kind of envisioning this new way of organization right I'm one that wants sustainability over profits regeneration is this scarcity and more cooperative distributed ways of organizing working over a hierarchical right and centralized ways working and this is really [ __ ] cool this is something of bad I'm like serious I like this this is what a lot of people have been working towards for a very long time so this isn't new to just the people in this room this is very new to us but it's not new to everybody outside this group that's what I was meant to say so this is a really cool vision right this is very counter hegemonic approach to organization that could serve and empower the people who are being disempowered and underserved right now so even I wanted to get this space to start talking how we can evolve beyond Davos beyond this weird little thing that we all really like talking about and how do we start getting towards that vision of sustainable regenerative and cooperative organizations right and so we believe that there's three things that we need to make that happen one is collaboration this is something that cannot be done alone that's quite logins the second is accessibility some things cannot just be accessible to the people who can come out to Osaka Japan or Def Con this should be something that anybody can access and Bill Bissett books and also common ground we kind of have to get on the same page about what we're building and what's really cool is that most of the workshops on jaws have been around the same concept of how are we getting weirder than the same language within the same frameworks and that's super super important for our evolutionary process so yeah that's the basis for this workshop either sketching it and tell you how we're trying to provide the space to start approaching that's counter hegemonic vision and we can governor thank you so one of the biggest criticisms I have with this area is that we talked about these buzzwords like Tao without thinking about why you know we might just boost our cloud or ICO but we haven't really thought about how to apply it into like hadiza outside of this room into web to some people who don't know the word out and the people who will never care about the work down and so the best way we thought to do this was to collaborate and how people share their learnings we have several dowels represented here or people working on them and aside from Twitter there's not a lot of collaboration and so this in itself was trying to solve a coordination problem by allowing for their collaboration and talking more about how do we make it more accessible and what should we be thinking about in terms of common ground as a tool set so you know Dow itself is not a thing but you know things like coops and say these groups have existed for a while on so how did aus play into a larger ecosystem of organ types outside of justice atheria buzzword and so we have a few prompts here and I'll go through them exactly what we think you guys should be talking about our goal would be if you guys could separate into six groups and so we have on the walls each of these prongs and if there are people who don't want to work on the prompts of sign we also recognize this room is massive right now so if it makes more sense to do it all together we can do that although that might be harder and we probably won't get through all of them right I can start going through them [Music] so here the prompts are on white boy so firstly white house why are we here in the first place why do we think these are different organization types then like I mentioned coops or savings groups or credit unions and if they're not different than how can we start collaborating more with the history that has existed with you know experimentation globally and different kinds of developing and developed nations today are not to Dowe so a lot of people like to now include the word Zhou and everything I would say that's not always the best use case and so you want to pin down what is it not right to use it down and really think about why are we saying the worked out was it simply for cloud or does it actually provide a tool set for us that can improve the way that we organize table tool kids so aside from the technical infrastructure what other components are necessary for us to achieve this so you know companies like open larger like the legal structure what other business structure should we have are we you know using the same social tools like discord etcetera and if so that's awesome so maybe we should be more people pointed on how we actually need those you know there's like a lot of controversy on leadership or project management was in a down and you still need those web to tools to achieve the organization that we want within it them so governing Taos how are they different from the existing structures you know do we need identity solutions what other components do we need to make me successful outside of the civil attack problem what other problems exist within as we have to consult them experimentation so as I mentioned there's a lot of people here who are either making towns are part of Taos it would be great for everyone to share their learnings and so something you learned in Moloch is like a lot of people are participating in a lot of different towns but without a fundamental but basic Shelley point to communicate that we actually aren't sharing a lot of information sound of flavors so I guess piggybacking a little on the taxonomy town workshop earlier today what are the components of different kinds of doubts what are they different kinds of jobs what are the features that does should have to be successful and maybe there's people who care who are part of that workshop that that'd be great to have you guys participate in that but defining more some of the lines between two and down types might make it easier for us to identify what is it Dow this vague turn well so those prompts were created by even I would also pushed out to the general community and a bunch of Twitter shitposting that we've been doing and so we've actually built out those prompts with a lot more like guiding questions that can be used to leave the group some and you'll be able to find those on the Hackett DPH and the excel sheet but so we don't just want you guys to just jump in and like have discussions we want this to be something that is actionable and so we can pull out these insights and actually apply them back to the community so what do we want from you right so first we want you guys to capture and share the key insights from your discussion groups through the collaborative note sharing so and then actually share it work together obviously and play nicely and engage with each other and then we want you guys to present those insights to each other so we want this to be a quick breakout session where you know people dive into each of these prompts and then come back together and share these insights so that means that we're gonna have to have one group leader over each group and one person who's taking notes and those are the two people so I can't wait to see all those hands volunteer for the groups that's gonna be really great and then I guess the guiding framework for like what we want out of this session because it's so hard to dive into all these big topics and how to structure conversation is more of a proposal for frameworks deliverables and continuing work that can come out of this workshop that can be worked on with each other with different groups and again push back to the community so evolving together this work only begins here this is not something that they believe will stop but it Isis this room our goal is just to create space for people to come together and have these discussions and also we just want you guys to take inspiration and use this as a launch base for more collaborative discussions around outs as Eva said we have tons of people who are representing the different you no doubt groups now filters now is in general here in this room so take this time to you know kind of break down this project silos and have conversations that in real life not just or Twitter which is really important so to talk about logistics and then I'll take a couple questions and just make sure that we're all on the same page we're actually going to be doing our note sharing if anybody didn't know we have this like happen D for Def Con this is a QR code to get it or you can just find it through the DEF CON map and we've actually set up the document we followed the different group categories this is the link when we didn't think that we would have slides and so this is where we're going to be taking your notes and share insights and this will be accessible by everybody and again whoever is volunteering to take notes do this in the hack indeed that would be great so okay so to go back to the original question we have a really big group of people here um so I wanted to do a quick check on if people would rather these small working groups where these little corner or a larger group discussion that even I facilitate and and work through each of the props so Google wines working groups raise your hands yeah really like okay okay now who wants a larger discussion that city self is the case for working groups okay so or so or so I mean if if to a group forms and wants to go somewhere else had you then what time we come back I mean that there's more space in this room for working you don't have to work physically here because this is all I'm half empty will see all of it and our goal is to publish all of this as a collaborative effort on some medium of choice with all of your notes and also the frameworks or Dalek itself you know a decentralized organization is not new we think it's new because we have this new fun thing called the smart contract that allows decentralized coordination we want to better understand what are the differences and similarities between things like co-ops savings groups credit unions etc that are very parallel to grant outs or arrogant Dowsett cetera and how you know what are the tools that we need now to make those easier given that we have this new technology stuff that we using all these prompts are on this excel sheet that you can also access through the MD document so we wanted more information on the Proms so I think that we're gonna do yeah there's stickers on the wall for the groups by your prompt but if you don't want to be in this room as it is quite packed as our moderator said you can leave and then come back I think coming back at 4:30 what makes sense we wanted half an hour at the end for discussion and presentation yeah so let's everybody take the time now coordinate like the amazing distributed people that you are inspire self into one of these X prompts and if you have another prompting you have a group around you you want to talk about something else I mention all the information is on there as many attendees so beautiful Oh I'm gonna get was on this mattress today's he still drives me stragglers in the back we zoom in listening which maybe twice I hope so okay cool hi guys guys that whispered what I heard from those discussions and everything sounded really really fun great so I'm really excited to hear from all of you guys the game plan now is I want each group to nominate one person to come up and share the general key highlights proposals moving forward whatever they think is relevant that they want to share with the other groups without any one person and that person is mispronounced right I think we have everything you're now so I'm going to repeat those instructions in one more time so one lovely person from each group is going to come up and spend however long maybe you've max five minutes sharing the insights thoughts general discussion points that they think is really important for every other group to hear so I want every group to nominate one person that person is going to come up here with microphone I have the full attention of the room so we're gonna do that for each group I think we ended up already having five groups so again this will be probably 30 25 minutes we'd love for everybody to stay to hear about all the insights and then that's it okay great any questions no okay so who wants to start first or should we start one through six in verse 6 all right who's coming up announce yourself are you part of it James's house was about the flavors of Dallas we basically tried to go through and think of all the characteristics um you know that could be on all switches or could be scales or wrote about philosophies and so these different points that make up the flight to death the first one was the permission list has solve it by is the doesn't obviously really open and commissioned or is it you know for managing funds across MIT because of people and the Commission on this event the single month is is a full profit slash full of sustainability slash another goal and just doing grunts right so obviously as a given now said the next one was around the number of Mimas so how many people you know again premise late as small as a lodge is it me to scout a million people or do they need to be bought the next one that was pretty cave was the fund allocation so is it you know it's the point of it just employ capital in different ways or is it a tag um and you know what color to paint my mom's house the next one was as the token or not token right so it definitely I cannot be Indian right down but you know as it does it have a token inside of it is that the point to it or is they not at all when it's a doesn't require the other Oh was it focused on some of like people in urban access and training of almost or does it have some like hot coated in it what are the what the point of it is right so that you you just say like this Porsche develop of a time you know that some beautiful 'ti of it that was another one of the flavors and then in one of the things we spoke through was going through her dad set calling a paragon Penn Valley and into the mall at folks and what will those flavors I don't want to do everyone else's I considered I just those are we on the Hank update on that so the coals for those who have six different paces the possible and then also the different or add I think Nick's tips for the different the flavors of the doubt I mean I think we're going to give them up on hacking day maybe sort of expanding out these flavors I think I mean no one with sauce equation now but I'm pretty sure these other flavors and other attributes that make up it down so contributing to dip I think would be really useful in sort of building out this list and also putting back the community right because I think there's a lot of community members that on in this room on that actually care a lot about Dallas and sort of understanding cap at least the people are in the room of thinking about these ideas and thinking about the different flavors and entrance to think up a now is really important so what encouraged you to go to the Hackett Isabel and contribute to the discussion and build out these flavors that's not a question but a comment because I felt like a crazy idea you could build down around the state around crazy things thanks for example what presents or anything else that is important for the community so for example in heaven as men say things related to as think as many times you have to this conferences related maybe that's not the best measure you can come up with better manners so that doesn't have to be like a thought you don't have to be ever see who's coming up announce ourselves speaking for that experimentation team we spoke on there were like four themes major topics there was what have you learned from past experiments riding past aggregators in the group we talked about what we should be carrying cautious of the future endeavors and then also what we wanted to do future endeavors and then I've got like a little assorted category so for past experiments that were in our group we had a great fit of a tape wine with their least recent CLR model and you know so it's based on a quadratic and may have some questions of open questions about identity verification and things like that but the last round was very successful in particular 2200 contributions were made and they noted that it seemed that a UX improvement that calls people visualize how their vote was really affecting it it gave this my kind of social media that windfall juicy has another participation she was really really care about there was some conversation but this thing called lived out but I hadn't heard about that it was a plasma scaling that that something like had some autonomous reputation enforcement I would penalize people through those things as simple as being sick for a week and so there was kind of sentiment of like sometimes it's how you could encode things don't reflect the community sentiment that did seem to be a group sentiment that if the group had agreed to slash the reputation this wouldn't seem so bad but the fact that somebody just didn't vote for a week Felton's you mean there was there was a there's some other doubt alluded to it had some like private HR vish issue that is now public though everybody sees it somebody's gonna get fired so there's a question about how many of these principle more human things should be on the chain of general there's a little bit of conversation with the death PS experiment from an antitype token status under curating adapts it was deliberately designed to avoid voting because voter participation is usually kind of come back to later is like participation part then we're talking about what you should be cautious of and building dows actually we have one major threat they kind of dominated here there was like a question of it was like politics versus autonomy and it kind of ties back into like just the theme of all time you know they were defining dad like at the time autonomous is a letter in the word and how important is that into it you know first I got you know testimony from mother what does well if I I know everybody I'm the founder I can pretty I know how to hustle the focus may get an initiative passing some people might not want to be a part of the doubt it is like that and there was kind of a conversation about what wall tiles are gonna have strong or weak cultures and you know maybe the trust minimization in these systems comes from transparency not the lack of trust systems so that's those are the experiments we have another fed about what we should be cautious about sorry that was that was yeah so every avoid politics where is that intrinsic CEO I think that was an interesting conversation and yeah and what can we determine with besides that was there was a so for one thing a Daoist assent mechanisms they can be coupled with norms in a community those norms can be self-fulfilling the great feedback loops right if you've established and this norms like we've got we need be able to invade and slash people like obviously you're gonna create a self-fulfilling community in that way oh you donate on chain and you get for every dollar you successfully I'm looking you get it took any hello ever see the price it sounded a lot like hydrology to talk to me yeah anyways probably and then also was the USB Co other thoughts Jesus sorted things through the whole lot of Ethernet can you avoid politics more - you think about profiles for users that are participating in gearing experiences for them actually which I asked for detail back because I was in February was like building me experienced tours of profiles of people summarizing that I didn't fully drop it sorry and then the other can be problems with information asymmetry antennas when there's people who are like curating Anna's so like they might know what are actually good proposals and stuff third costs that are not monetary the usage that comes back to living the costs so having the decisions where's your boss there was a little taxonomy kind of similar with that group one suggested like some are fund allocation vehicles and summer decision-making or parameter settings as sometimes legal restrictions can play into that so you can either like take that in C or the incentives and mechanisms that are considering when designing we're down or you can just like copy and paste bylaws from the existing corporate or governance structures and basically just happen to with guarantee a trustless enforcement there's a little bit of a thread I think we got a little bit greement by the end where was like cows are kind of just us building rules that are more trusting ports it seems like we got kind of disagreement but there were a couple caveats about whether that there was no doubt can I have a dictator and know it's out has its rules enforced Russell's interest it's a little too big caveat sand isn't just an organization that's on channels voter participation should it should be required should be opted in there's an idea what if your your lock screen on your phone or marketing devote itself or you use it and yes security tokens that was the notion of way maybe you get future revenues well questions about down into the rules and questions of how do you do with early members having the dominance of reputation they're down so he she needed to K or is it a good thing any questions or additions to ask that it was a really comprehensive this I'm really excited to read there was a lot of really good ideas the promise things kind of interesting dan is a comment or what I take away from that is like we should definitely have like culture is what brings people together and so profiles are cultures that component at profiles and so if you have too many heterogeneous people then it's really hard to actually create culture or look at a line goal that's how I interpret that great that's awesome yeah tons of thoughts there ok cool so let's move on to governing davos governance who wants to come thanks hey announce yourself hi my name is jason time for malaysia and this is tor light in a circle our network so we have a lot of amazing content okay personally that's why I think okay in the last 15 minutes so we talked about governance okay reason being is because if the governance model breaks down then everything basically cuts over so so complicated governance be one chain and off chain and all should be Unchained but it really depends on what you're looking at where you draw the line and incentivization models for example okay should be common on a towel should be unchain the line is drawn based on what the purpose of the doubt is an example that was brought up was marked ours a good reference to check out they are very clear line we teach 2.0 development voting should be one chain and it should be centered around the shared vision so the second prong that we went into was how do we support a centralized governance immediately one of the members said that if before anything else the interface is very important because the current voting in summary results so we need to be the voting experience much more easier for people to come in and they said look at our core our gotta stir us to look at and one of the other cooee we have an app okay bigger build a big community and test a concept and another member mentioned we need not only the interface we also need a how-to guide use this to make informed decisions so how we communicated coordinates so that people would not dissipate any meaningful which is governance right so before we even talk about testing away our wonderful or not something very important which is to first establish what success does not like okay successful governance should match great returns not necessarily financial returns but also social well-being returns the forum that we went into is that on how much does house look a mirror to corporation or less dependent are there any lessons that we can learn from it so the innovation of time that we have there was a long samples okay that doesn't run on that became referred to again social benefit corporation don't know advisor funds participatory budgeting by for example what's happening in the US Madrid please feel free does like all these keywords keno and stuff you can check out later you can do research on that as well v prompt okay is when do we need to use Solutions in town so what was brought up was whenever that's quadratic funding okay or whenever there's one person one equals one vote okay that an identity solution is relevant who is working on this okay we brought up I can hide entry which way one of the members point out that when it comes to identity it really is the holy grail of this subject matter but we still need to continue to work on it with what we have another member mentioned that know rather than ways were giving me an identity okay we're not we work backwards that a person can basically put him up identity value months and then fills it up from there rather than having a centralized Authority giving that identity that was a very interesting idea I thought why couldn't I just you know we use ipfs no crime intensity on the blockchain and that did it from there one element also brought up the king of I'm sorry identity has one book at a candy capitalistic because when that happens the more you have the more power you also have the no voting process what will be interesting but wanted people to actually do is to have identity as one union person and as for next time straw man yeah great summary so yes that steps that I pulled out we need we didn't discuss as a group because we got absorbed into the discussion itself as the person next steps I pulled out of the discussion would be perhaps to develop good information curation and discussion at this so first you know facilitating a great way to have discussions decisions that cows are making but then also to curate that information for people who maybe aren't as engaged in all of the discussions but we want to contribute to the decision-making another is delegated voting so so that I think that kind of follows from that where if somebody isn't able to make an informed decision they might be able to delegate their vote to somebody who they trust to make a good decision on their behalf and along these lines it would be good to have an easy voting interface that perhaps works with maybe all of the different dau models so people can see you know what does they're a part of and vote really easily I think you're going to need delegated voting for that so that they can take their keys offline and then just vote from keys that are on their phone or something would be great to have a unique personhood mechanism to enable ID dependent mechanisms like quadratic funding or quadratic voting that we mentioned earlier on so you mentioned a couple projects that are working on this and it would be good to see these like integrated directly with dau or voting mechanisms a select bride ID or I did three and then finally perhaps we could design something off the shelf models that people could use for low stakes short-run dowels so that we can quickly experiment with governance and most importantly in a diverse set of communities so that we can see how these tools interact with a bunch of different types of cultures and people from different backgrounds and age groups and so on and so forth and in a way where people don't feel like intimidated by just how much is State but something that could just be like quick and fun yeah I think those are all being pretty cool next steps to take on as a community just one address something excited as a next step which is an easy interface and actually Dow stock has let me called alchemy which has where'd all the towns our house and you can participate they also MJ's is building something called town house which is where you can access a bunch of the Moloch forks and actually instead of launching your own lodging and access there that's exactly equal maybe another one it said lists these resources so you can all understand that was mentioned and was on your sights on being a day one of this because maybe the people know in fact somebody from our team they talked about having a United bounce I notice your group let's put your notes into the hot empty please do so we can capture them so awesome and I'm really enjoying that so I don't think that the doubt toolkit meant great okay so that one's canceled and so now we're not together but talks about ethics come on announcer silence you can cut the other two down or not to doubt that there was some strong opinions both sides of our group some people very much never a solution for anything all the time so I'm gonna go through some of the points the rate promise that we were addressing and how you know governance by both kind of assumes that voters are informed so there's an ethical problem with assuming that voters are informed definitely when folks waiting is good a lot of differences and discrepancies in how well the voter isn't born as well so we were looking at whether there's an ethical responsibility to impress upon voters that they should be informed as much as possible as constantly as possible and so it comes without information asymmetry which other people have been talking about earlier we talked about accessibility issues single-issue voters were a people mover one thing and another participates in everything else what does that do and most people default to inaction so what happens what we change this model we're insisting that they take action in order to participate and you know that goes against a lot of behavioral psychology and how people operate so what it's going to be able to take apart and who has the privilege to participate all the time serving for taking part in this town can force you to be constantly voting who are those people who are going to do that maybe not the person with two jobs and you kids so there's questions there and then if you think about well we're going to incentivize people to take part what damage doesn't sensitization do so you know if you it's about gamification what are people going to do to win the game do they really care the activity that they're involved in you know there's a strong feeling that there's a lack of knowledge generally amongst people building tales about the existing literature out there specifically around you voting and why voting is problematic so I can't remember the name it's gonna be here it's got lots to talk about that we talked to he really wants if you want to learn more than well never felt so I'm a geezer researcher so I care about understanding the needs of users and I think we should be speaking to people who when building for to understand their problems and their motivations rather than just building it and see who will come and that's a one of a good way of addressing ethics 13th so yes some of the things that we we should could look at is you know it before communities communities specifically marginalized populations as well we could be understanding the reasons why people now folks if we could solve that problem and I understand that and address it and that could probably then solve for all the people who do also lots of areas as well so you have higher participation event and also what understand why people all reasons to so we there was feeling that the scope of current valve seems a bit too large and we came to the conclusion that in order for downs it really makes sense you need to prove to people who have in common a desire to collaborate cooperate and have access abilities do this thing but they've one of these three things is missing that it's probably not right to have a dowel for it there was definitely feeling that where the Dow is addressing something really life-changing the proposals could mean life or death or significant effects for people's lives we are not ready right now for to be addressing any of those kind of problems and thinking about what is the risk to a person who leaves a doubt you know is there a risk to them in any way to and yeah we talk to it just a little bit more about just because this was brought up the idea you know could you get someone to vote in order to unlock their phone well what we will might end up doing is in order to incentivize people to take part in ours we could be building in the same manipulative design practices from one of two applications in order to get people to vote so there's an ethical question around there as to whether we really want to be doing that do we want to make it a game so that people had [Music] Thank You issues [Music] let's go boys access to those protect us good luck something which is direct direct service and is no very contentious and maybe those have organizations in small communities the blockchain and when you can organize with that citrus the user is like I've seen hello he had think those structures is filled enough for large well there was a question we had about marriages if this is already working effectively with innocence community you know world building to create the UX and lunching is easier but are there actual tools that have blockchain to provide to help this community and if they're doing okay like is there something else that this technology breaks that would have improved the coordination it requires behavior change and baby change is the hottest it's bad right to get people to do so right now the fire Twitter is way too high and that's what we should be addressing yeah and maybe finding the use cases and the places where people are ready to make that big a real change but not so much focusing on the ones where they're not ready for it yet and analyzing that just about any good practices sorry very honest I think tools like blue meow I don't know you know it's basically in a case for voting I feel like that's very small small trust each other and so it's still definitely assumes a lot gonna find that like non-blocking tools that are also very similar to what they would scale up to be really good out morning tools so it always like start with a small group something that has you know gas transactions etc but the state and it's really good like paper penetration and there's another very cool advantage that we actually should believe all it's not just me that's always it you have to hear that around finding a better collective solution than any individual solution and that would be something you should be thinking about instead of yes/no things but at the same time I can argue that no we should keep its warming simple yes or no binary yeah another behavioral change as well I think a really interesting idea behind that is that when you look at governance right now like you know as a space we try to be pretty well as this communities we try to be pretty anting you know money money money please do that but I think when you look at comments right now the money plays a huge role right either do as president you get paid with jillion dollars and then heat up a jillion dollars for even I think every year of your life and is this whole governance structures have been built up and financed around that I think that's from like a mile up thing that's what's going on with payer of the moment right Paytas been pushing wallet for a long time and only now as you take the first chick to you know actually oh you go right yeah that happens and that's really important right I think like the people that are coordinating these tabs and the pre-offer see we put into these systems you know they needs to be fighting to banking behind the news otherwise things would happen and I think right now dad started so you buy stable or not like it was great that brings up the interesting question of like are we actually changing the way their organizations work like suppose still needs to be paid for the work of been creating or coordinating a job we have this like a contrarian view there's no leaders and doubts when there are fundamental leaders and they should also be compensated but then also we have the ability to capture value in different ways and traditional profit structure is right so now we also have the opportunity to redesign the incentives which is really nice because we get to create a new way for people to be supported in effort to capture okay I just think that we are seeing on the wrong going name and by cutting it down because we're gonna have a person that is going to be leading the efforts just not really a centralized and I think you could change every second yes someone has to do something another one sensor me even what we do Alex we go to Marie I would say it's very important to me but there's leadership control so you can say leadership has headphone that's a great item recently I'm gonna show my notes it's like wrong but if I agreed Dow sailing term that's much broader than what each [Music] you can also have some type of energy centralization the actual centralization of funding so I think mister I could say if there is leadership it's not be centralized because we see the same thing like my labor one right but you're gonna be centralized notes you will have centralization because it's all on hey SS or something like then so I you know if you do say that oh yeah I see the letters D in a medium who is taking out the trash doesn't mean they're the ones deciding where the trash is going like compact everything into it down right we don't need to say that like a participatory or a horizontal or collaborative organization has to be a doubt there's value in these essentially separately and also I think we have to your point we also need to acknowledge that like back end labor happens so like organize and socialize and create the communications around how you or horizontal organization we want to honor that labor just to move about some missed resetting base we have a product problem at hand which ties which you're linking to it is like we are open source based right so there are people here that are contributing with wording which we cannot Remini rate based on the work produced kind of right because they can't cooperate so we have to come up we [ __ ] have to come up with a way to reward people who are contributing to the common cause I think that if we do it for ourselves then it might be easier to other people because you know we already you know really I think I any part of that yeah I think we still have one more group so this discussion is so amazing whether it be so cool if people have other thoughts that they want to contribute please put it in the hack and we and we can continue this discussion but that's really awesome they are interviewing for participating but we still love our group and I want to give them the opportunity to see all their think so lie down I mean this is like so you know Mandarin between three different kind of things about the state of 2004 house we discussed a lot about all looked out great down wrote down all those we also talked about a call to be bold makers of the house and most important about what now scoot to of the decision is great future where we don't have all this [ __ ] we only have 2000 they do what we want even though we don't know what I'm saying is it was a very difficult discussion to put in two key points so I'll just give you what we have so first key point we had a consensus that offline and online communities really require deep relationships and most often trust as well and we weren't really sure if it is possible to just model to trust away just by the mechanism that we can just not have to trust so it's definitely something that any discussion about house will be getting back into and we also caught several use cases you can find them in a heck of PL spend I just read some of them and so one of the biggest use case we had was that house allow and as a pain and else allows sidestepping the currents that force organizations signals as the structure into this binary decision are we doing this for profit or it is not for us so our claim is we can use vows to kind of enable the spectrum in between these two and like somebody from the middle said a few minutes ago that we can also really decide whether we want to have the spectrum or on the funding side or the governance side two marriages have less both we won't have this fluent and another plan that we make is that vows because they are kind of shared the software stack enabled fluency and all that and this this is what we believe this is one of the key points for anyone who's investigating that that this fluency in the structures is one of the keys so to speak selling points that we're all somehow subconsciously hoping for what else do we have here oh yeah one of the typical use cases is a governance of decentralized projects using the house you all know if your projects simply our house and they self organize that I guess they don't give a rat's ass about legal implications because why would you buy with what else we have here yeah obviously a new means to capture value and maple valley creation with less social and legal friction I'm not really sure this is the case in all cases that's why benching are having us grow shop I guess to just enable that you design patterns that will make easier for future generations of conscious people to design those just in a better way and open big plan we had accessibility is still not very equally distributed I mean there are populations that are not online that there are populations that do not know that you can actually have an organization on the internet that are people who are unaware the forum's exist you know that's the problem that is just going to my opinion personal insult itself with time for development of the digital space in general and one plane that we had as well is that they'll provide digital interface to a social process that often or in the past position so for instance it was this example of the handout or if we just imagine we have a more an advanced version of that which is actually a super pact you can kind of see what's going on in a social system that you normally wouldn't be able you would only be able to see results outcomes of that system but now you can just go online right if you go online and just check what's going on who's quoting maybe if you cannot which will identities to the virtual boats you can still see what's going on without having to ask your immediate surrounding social network so maybe we can actually gain some sort of super transparency that is not really something that humans have had in the past and and you think - they have guys and gals although we go out to the ocean I guess that's it mostly I think do we have some time I think every morning what eyes of money yes we should come here shareholders or nonprofit and have a very hard question because I confirmation that government insurance as it is very much money but as tradition is always been about helping the community as well and require controls but that structure is very so it's a way that I can work but it's exploring a new way to push a mission and its society and what enormous personal way I think that and also to discuss the local community example I might be that thou can be dealing as I said uh people trust attentiveness that knowledge between people in common goal like to create the kindest or you can curly make decisions and also make it some people think outside the bubble if this is a general power it's basically when you have it's down to the next level is nominee has much a tremendous power disease wherever trustless monetary system but now we can delegate the trust and we can change in places where traditionally you know we have we're not some change that we want to bind my personal interest is in the humanity very frustrated I don't believe that a lot of operations and the government's will work together to transition us 100 pesetas okay so what if we have you know a cow that basically collects funds to give out noise for people who actually install solar panels okay and we don't compromise that is free from corruption is mental manipulation this coach is that like please I think that this part it's it's kind of in some respect or you know can I say it's what I do had these mechanisms already I think is cool for us to play with the diversification that is kind of good to experiment and everybody doing that I'm gonna go to an organization and do the same thing it's like oh yeah that's I was just doing that I just kind of wonder the advantages so for some who are coming from the vehicle space it gives them more exposure to senior processes and I think for those who are already involved in that process it can do that in the community project site they'll have their own custom expect that just feel like the public versus and if these depend visibility of where I work and say oh I voted on that and now I have a family built in my community or something that's the science facility instead it's want to say like there will be no disagreement reinventing will to get to do things but hopefully there is something that but don't forget apply to it I think yeah I love that guys I think we're gonna cut it right there and that was a great inspirational way to that so thank you so much we are already about diversity so much for spending this much time with us please add any thoughts and I can do even I already take this so you've sent me out into the community so also stay for you this is our Twitter but again thank you guys so much for your brain [Applause]