# Humans of Crypto #5  with Joël Valenzuela

- Channel: [CryptoCanal](https://streameth.org/cryptocanal)
- Date: 2022-10-07
- Duration: 2:35:39
- Watch: https://streameth.org/watch/yt-mvciGeAvvTE
- YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvciGeAvvTE

## Description

Today for the 5th episode of the Humans of Crypto we welcome the one and only, US based, unbanked Joël Valenzuela. Can he really be living the cypherpunk dream, and how? 

Dash Force partner and editor of Dash Force News. He is a veteran writer and journalist in the cryptocurrency space, and had a long professional history in public policy, having worked for organizations such as the Cato Institute and the White House under George W. Bush. He also manages civic action organization the Rights Brigade and runs a taekwondo club, which he tell us a bit more about in the Show & tell. 


Timeline 

00:00 Intro 
04:00 New Hampshire crypto scene 
08:50 Free State Project 
13:43 Chicago Bitcoin Pizza
15:32 Joel’s origin story 
20:20 White House internship 
29:00 Back to the Free State Project
35:18 Becoming unbanked 
48:30 How to live unbanked 
1:02:30 Living outside the system 
1:07:20 Spending cryptocurrencies 
1:16:40 What is Dash? 
1:26:00 Scaling
1:30:00 Funding 
1:40:00 Market cap ranking and the free market
1:51:20 Cryptocurrencies have their own use case 
1:54:40 Dash Evolution 
2:01:30 DeFi & DAOs  
2:11:30 Blockchain trilema 
2:12:20 Show & Tell 

More about Joël Valenzuela
https://twitter.com/TheDesertLynx 
Digital Cash Network https://anchor.fm/digitalcashnetwork
Joel's CoinTree: https://cointr.ee/thedesertlynx

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## Transcript

hello everyone and welcome to episode five of the humans of crypto podcast i'm joined today by the one and only joel valenzuela yes joel has been living unbanked using and spending his cryptocurrency specifically dash for daily payments as a mean of exchange truly living that cypherpunk dream which some of us are aspiring to not only that but joel has a very interesting background rooted in journalism and politics he at some point worked for the cato institute the white house he's been basically advocating and working towards bringing more freedom to the world for most of his life it's an absolute honor to have him today for the show and i really look forward to having this conversation and i hope you look forward to meeting joel and learning more about his journey today with me let's jump in welcome joel valenzuela to episode 5 of the humans of crypto i can't believe you're here what an honor welcome well thank you um it's pretty believable i'm here because there was a calendar invite and i don't tend to miss those although i was a few minutes late as they like to call it mexican time but that's usually just an excuse for me no but it's it's a it's an honor for those that don't know i've been on joel's digital cash network channel a couple of times and i always have the the best conversation with you so thank you for for coming on board yeah well thanks always an honor to be on um i've checked out your channel when ever since you started it i watched some of the guests and it's usually i just check out a few minutes of things to see what's going on but i have listened to i think either all of yours or most or all but one all the way through just in the background because i get information out of it that i don't get from other sources which just sounds like a it's kind of like a robotic or silly way to describe it but like they're just everyone's doing the same thing and you're doing something different that's kind of what i mean that's that that means a lot thank you so much i i guess i i would with this show basically i'm trying to recreate what i'm very lucky to have from time to time when i meet people in person crypto people in person and i'm trying to bring that to a larger audience and share this sort of one-on-one meetup moment but with a larger audience well speaking of that real quick i did realize that my computer connected to the wrong slow wi-fi network so if you just allow me to switch wi-fi networks yes so that you're always pixelated no worries no sorry for that you don't even need to edit this out you can just leave my incompetence right now i'm still here everybody is looking at your terrible wi-fi right now no but it's it's fine should i pause it reconnected there we go how's that any better and we're back yes sorry i just you know i don't want to look at your pixelated face the whole time through because it auto-connected to the wrong thing while i was in a rush just land here arrive in the moment and and enjoy because as you were saying as i was saying i would have i we've never met in person like isn't that crazy like we've had multiple discussions about crypto and crypto banter and the news and stuff but i've never had the chance to to meet you in person and to have this sort of peer-to-peer connection yeah that's the way of things a lot these days because there have been travel restrictions for a lot of people depending on where they live and it's just been very crazy but also since before then i don't know i've kind of been the like the black sheep of the crypto movement like everyone is all like buddy buddy goes to these same conferences has these clicks all that kind of stuff and i just was like anytime i went to a crypto conference is business i went there to do my job and then just all like the uh but moon boys oh look charlie lee let's get a photo with him i just i don't think i've had the chance to attend any of the big big ones that you know people talk to but i definitely have met and yeah have met most of the most incredible people at just small local meetups but i haven't had the chance to test the american scene yet like the new hampshire meetup or i don't know what it's like yeah it's funny because it is um it's a it's an non-crypto meetup like it's a non-crypto environment i should say because or anti-crypto i would say because it's the truest sense of the word in that you see a lot of crypto being used there's a lot of people working in like there's a lot of random people who use it in their daily life and their business and things like that but you won't see like dogecoin stickers you won't see fanboy they don't know all the the new things going on they don't know oh you know i made a lot off this solana pump and like no no one's talking about that stuff so it's to it's very opposites to the modern crypto world you know even though it kind of started the modern crypto world if you think about it like eric voorhees used to come to these meetups gavin andreessen uh he's the one who he went on free talk live and gave them some bitcoin got them talking about bitcoin and roger ver heard from their channel about that's how you first heard about bitcoin vitalik buterin's been out there as well he's we have pictures of him like walking around and stuff before ethereum and everything it charlie schrems up here uh obviously the harvey brothers who founded llamas through the first bitcoin atm company we're fr or from here i don't know they weren't born here but they were like living here in manchester there's just a lot of like roots yeah obviously library that odyssey runs on is based out of here really any pay it was based out of here the yeah that's a lot you've just mentioned like 10 projects or at least 20 10 people that have then founded big companies or projects in crypto yeah it's pretty big for a um a state an area of like 1.5 million people that's pretty rural that literally uh like a few months ago right down the street there was a moose in someone's backyard and everyone's looking at it just you know and i could literally walk five miles and i'm in the middle of the woods here just it's just it's not what crypto is today which is you know the michael sailors of the world you know the the big stuff you know the charles hoskinson you know developer tour prom you know all this the tech conference it's like people here aren't the type to be walking around stage with that little little mic little hands-free mic thing trying to like impress a bunch of you know silicon valley people that's just that's interesting would you say that the new hampshire crowd is maybe a bit more down to earth just more down to earth or is it just like a different more freedom based community yeah for sure it's definitely the origins of crypto type community it's in you know i don't want to stand you know like just roger ver lines and stuff but you know when bitcoin used to work and the fees were low and everyone used it as money and there's a tool for freedom and it's it's all of the above is kind of what people are still stuck on and then for example like the great example these days is you know library library has been around since like 2016 i believe early 2016. no one used it um now odyssey has over 30 million people coming every month using it and it's still like way at the bottom of coin market cap like 700th place or something crazy like that and you know being sued by the sec right now the government's cracking down on them and all that and i mean obviously they don't like the government part but they don't care it's like i don't care that they're not the cool kids club they're just building something that as people are using to actually escape censorship and just completely being neglected from the crypto discussion i just don't care because that's not what they're about and that's a very good analogy for what's kind of going on did did you discover crypto where you're living now or did you discover crypto in another place of the world like where is this has this always been like your local environment has also shaped your way of thinking in the crypto space yeah pretty much it was very basically on a tech on a technicality no but for practical purposes yes i was always into the idea of sound money you know big peter schiff guy before you know peter schiff ended up being you know a kind of hater of the progress of the stuff that he was always talking about but i heard about this thing called bitcoin somewhere maybe 2012 or so 2011 2012 i heard about it and people are saying like oh yeah all the ron paul people were saying like oh this is like the next this like digital goal this could do a lot of hyping it up and i just like all right i okay didn't just didn't pay attention to it until i was on my way moving out here which when i decided to move out to new hampshire i did so as part of the free state project which is you know for those who don't know is just a project to basically move a bunch of people who believe in freedom to one place and then see what happens that's kind of it what they say is exert your fullest practical effort to advance liberty is what you're actually supposed to do but people do it all kinds of different ways the original thought was this guy called uh jason sorens for his uh i believe i forget if it was i think it was yale or harvey i i don't really care about the ivy leagues he's one of those big ivy league schools for his uh phd thesis i believe he basically analyzed libertarian politics and basically found that there's way too few to make any kind of a meaningful impact but then you know in this i don't want to sully's phd thesis by using like the spongebob meme but basically let's take all the returns and put them over here like what if they all moved to like one spot and voted that was the original idea like voted their way they could have a meaningful impact and if their ideas are actually palpable if they're actually useful we'll see positive impacts from that and that'll have a ripple effect through the rest of the world and of course if it doesn't work out you know we were wrong all along but then it ended up being the catalyst for this movement called the free state movement and a bunch of people started to move out and then they kind of went for most of the history they kind of went in other directions other than the legislature they kind of went to i'm gonna do civil disobedience i'm going to you know do educational things and crypto is a huge part of this and so i decided to move out i was living in phoenix which you know for those unaware of american geography is so new hampshire is at the the top right corner right the northeast corner pretty much of the us just right on the ocean there 14 glorious miles of coastline right there and phoenix is the capital of arizona which is in the southwest it's not quite with california in the corner but it's five hours drive to the ocean in san diego right on the ocean on california so it's like right around there right in the middle of the desert so i basically said i i like this idea a lot i don't know what else i'm doing with my life i might as well go out and just see what i could do so i put everything i owned in the back of my little two-door honda civic and just drove and so it was a 50 50 total hours on the road to get there which is you know i mean western europe is small but i mean what it how far like how far does it how long does it take to drive from uh lisbon to moscow for example uh i i have no idea maybe i'll just i want to say at least 20 hours let's let's google that google now yes yeah yeah i get to start google while we're doing that but yeah basically uh one of those um one of those stops was in chicago and there was another person who was also anticipating moving to new hampshire who was living in chicago and i stayed with him and he um whoa okay one day and 22 hours for lisbon to moscow is that what you said so it's it's further than lisbon it sounds like it's further than now maybe the roads yeah because it's direct yeah because 22 days is 24 48 hours and i drove two hours longer than that okay so it was basically lisbon to moscow okay for you know the eurocentric people of course you know you know russians like that's that's how long it takes to visit grandma if i just drive to the next city in russia you know it's it's completely it's a different thing uh but so i stopped in chicago and um this guy was you know i we went out for pizza of course that's what you do in chicago you know chicago style pizza which a lot of people contend isn't pizza but i'm not going to get into that kind of you know hate crime-filled discussion right now but basically he wanted to pay me for his part of the pizza and bitcoin yeah wait your origin story oh okay first you heard about it but it's a bitcoin pizza store you're kidding pizza you're kidding okay okay no it's how it a strange series of events i don't even think that any of us made ooh i am back i'm disappear on me what's that and you're back yeah i don't know what's up there's a strange glitch right there like just no no worries but you were explaining your uh your pizza your chicago pizza story yes on your way to new hampshire which is yeah so on my way to move in yeah i stopped in chicago a friend bought the pizza or he shared pizza and honestly in retrospect he probably just didn't have the fiat like he was too broke to pay for his pizza so he's like why don't i just give you bitcoin instead i was like all right so however it worked out um i bought pizza and i received bitcoin in return i did not buy pizza with bitcoin so it's not really a bitcoin pizza day for me but kind of it's close it's it's very close it's very close and before that you had never dabbled in it and you weren't you just had heard of it you had heard of these these maybe the philosophy or more of like the libertarian crowd because before crypto you had a very i would say already much of you were already kind of a freedom advocate before crypto can you tell us a bit more about with those crazy days like when people read your buyer they're like wait joel was like at some point working in the white house like how did that happen way back then yeah i want to know like the full stuff so the or the origin story yeah um i was bored into a rich family my parents were murdered in front of me i decided to become to go into the mountains and train and became the batman no it's not quite it's not quite that good but okay um so my parrots are or were silicon valley yuppies as they were yup yuppie is an old word for young urban professional but you know basically like exactly the crowd of people that's into crypto today my mom owned her own newspaper in the san francisco area my dad was working as a coder at hewlett packard back at the punch card days so at some point um my dad's family owned a cattle ranch in the north of mexico and you know my dad's mexican he's born in the us but he's you know grew up in mexico is of mexican origin you know dual citizen all the rest and so at some point both my parents decide although it's kind of more my mom's crazy idea but they both decided like we're done with this san francisco lifestyle we're going to become cattle ranchers now and that was in the early 90s and then how many years ago is that 30 i guess they're still there still doing that so they just yeah it's kind of funny because that's a crazy story back in the day today it's not that crazy of a story i mean how many first off how many people are fleeing san francisco like like you say like what you gave up a life in san francisco it's like everyone here is like congratulating you now because it's become such a hell hole but so they were ahead of the curve and then also how many people just say man i don't know i just want to raise like farm to table organic you know like every it sounds like everyone's like if you can pull it off everyone wants to do that and back in the old days though it seemed crazy like would you just gonna like give up a real job in a in like the best place like the highest whatever you do about schools like all this kind of stuff and so they moved there so that's kind of where like i moved when i was three years old about i was you know just in time to like miss the poisoning influence of that place and then so yeah so from ages three to sixteen i grew up on the cattle ranch mexico so you know i have agricultural roots and it's funny because up until i was like six i don't believe we had electricity because there's no like electrical grid there so we just had oil lamps you know old school where you know you just blight one of those at night and then my dad figured out a solar panel system again early 90s when people weren't doing solar panels and just to power the whole thing and then we had you know we had we had lights if i left the light on too long i get yelled at especially on cloudy days but yeah so made it through that and of course as part of that there's no good you know schools around or anything and you know a little the closest village is like an hour away of like 300 people with like two like half of the houses with dirt floors like just not a real like not a super developed area so i was homeschooled all the way through and this is homeschooling is much much more adopted today but back in the day was mostly religious crazies right who were just you know i don't want to be poisoned by the you know so basically but it's always been a legend of early homeschooling that they're always like super ahead i don't know if part of that is it's just a natural outgrowth of bucking the old educational system now like the european systems depending on where you're at i mean government schools are government schools but it's every european i've ever known has at least known some things american schools are really bad like the public schools which just terrible and so i mean not like what developing country terrible where you know people don't always learn how to read but like mostly they learn how to read in american school so that's a good it's a good start but so because of that i finished university by the time i was 19 and usually it's like 22 or so in in the us or something so that's that big origin story and a lot of that part was um in kind of a political diplomatic whatever sort of role and so aft of course instantly i'm thinking what can i do with my degree like i wanted to get into politics and change the world kind of thing and i had not electoral politics where you're actually trying to elect people and things like that but like why not get into you know think of the think tank world oh i want to publish papers and reach people out about how great it is to reduce government spending and all this stuff and so you know try to do that and i did that for a little while we worked at a few different think tanks all around the country then a few in washington dc and somewhere in there i got an internship at the white house under george w bush way back in the day is 08 and yeah it was interesting so even though i did work for the government i never got paid a dime from taxpayer money so thank you um wait interns at the white house aren't paid no unpaid in turn 12 to 16 hours a week yeah i mean 12 16 hour days i mean so you know there was a few nights of just like getting the office at seven leave a little after midnight crash on the on the bed in your suit and just like wake up still in your suit from night before there was some of that but i didn't get paid for it so at least there's not that mark on my record and that sort of drove an interest you're not tainted yes i didn't i didn't participate in theft right but the funny thing is um that's kind of what solidified my pro-freedom aspirations because there's a lot first off salaries are different i'm sure now but in 2008 the entry level like the the first full-time staffer who was easily working like 80 hour weeks 6 70 80 hour weeks like just almost like double a full-time job right uh was making i think at 28 000 a year which i'm sure it's a little more now but it's still you can't really pay your rent on that and then uh like their immediate superior was like 60 something a year which for the standard living for dc i mean you could for the hours you put in you could probably work at like a starbucks and make almost that like it's just the white house does not pay well at all it's funny because government has a lot of waste a lot of places and this they just work people to death and don't you know and they're some of the brightest like most driven like professional kind of people you'll ever meet and then but then we see the results right government is just it's a disaster and they kind of made me think of it a lot of people have this this idea especially when you get the more like anarchist circle you get have this idea that like government's a bunch of evil people and buffoons and then the free market's full of like great people and it's not like government's full of well depends on which branch and friends of which level oh i see a kitty cat didn't didn't uh you know missing out on attention for just a little too long yeah she can hang out there you got the whole like super villain thing going on just yeah broken yeah so it's it's not that a lot of government not most i wouldn't say but a lot of it is created and promoted and staffed at stuff by really hard working people who really want to make the world a better place and think this is the way to do it and you can't just like call them like you know crooks even though you know a lot of them a lot of them end up falling into some shady things you can't just call them kirks and then that's it like it's the system that's broken the system of incentives is just not right and so like how many people do you think that work for central banks are on the same like intellectual moral and you know competency level as people who work in the crypto industry and there's probably not that much of a difference except i mean i'm sure at the very top you have a bunch of people making slimy decisions but then again i mean cz and finance and stuff like that and other people ah but you know like charlie lee fluffy pony like a bunch of there's a bunch of this it's not that different but why is it good with kryptos now with central banks because of the systems the systems don't provide the right incentives in a coercive system and because they're coercive they tend to to immoral things if you can just force people to do whatever you want in you know throw them in jail if they don't then it starts to poison your whole mind and your whole thought process and you know i can just you know i can just write a law and make it happen and it's you don't have this you lose your connection to your fellow human to where when you're connected to your fellow human you work with them and you find solutions and you just find ways of making things happen and sort of like with the toxic bitcoin maximalism type era of just insult people and shout them down and say you're right i think that you lose even if you are right i think you start to become wrong because you lose your connection with that with the people if they have you lose your ability to see challenges that need to be overcome you know you you more importantly even if the pro you lose your ability to get adoption if you ask me because you can't just convince someone oh this is a good idea you're just like you're wrong this is the only thing everything else is a scam and then you start doing stuff like petitioning governments to make it rule of law that you have to adapt bitcoin in your country like that's all you got it's not just that you know that's what you prefer it's just that you don't have other options because you atrophied your human muscle you cannot your human connection muscle you don't know how to use it anymore when you start using force but the bitcoin maximals thing is that's a little hyperbolic because they are still in the free market environment they can be mean and rude and yell at people but they don't get to force people to do stuff that they don't want it's just you know the mindset's a little more toxic it's not as productive but they still have to adapt to market signals whereas with government you don't so long story short that's uh that's kind of what i got from that and then i sort of was spinning you know as they call spinning my wheels after i got well so after that i went to after i worked in the dc area for a little bit then i went to postgraduate studies in the uk in a little town called buckingham which is all you know a very good idea very good time very tiny town you know super small yes got a you know global affairs master and yeah it was and then thinking oh i got all this education all this experience i got the the cv to end all cvs for you know what was i 21 22 year old or whatever now like i could do whatever i want and then it doesn't really the real world doesn't really work that way and it just became you had a few jobs here and there but like not the dream job of whatever and just i didn't have like a career in my stuff that was going anywhere and yeah that course made it easier to just you know pursue the root of things like why do i do this stuff did i just like is my life purpose to work in a think tank and if i can't work in a think tank i don't have a life purpose it's like go down to the roots oh is it freedom what where is freedom going on and when uh there was a i don't know if it's still up that the atlas economic research foundation had a compendium of every single free market think tank or organization in the entire world like a big map and so literally i uh it's funny because um if you ever wa watch the last king of scotland which is a very good movie about idi amin and the uganda dictator the scottish doctor in the beginning after his medical you know it's not a spoiler it's literally the first scene whatever after he gets his medical license he wants to get anywhere outside he spins the globe he puts his finger on it and ends up canada he's like yeah and he spins it again and then he goes uganda okay yes i guess i'll be a doctor in uganda just goes and so sort of that thing where i saw every place in the world that had a you know whether it's uh lima or new delhi or whatever that free market think tank if they were looking for jobs i was just applying to all of them anything just i don't care i'll go i'll work somewhere in the world doesn't matter and then i came across new hampshire there was this thing called the free state project there and i was like oh this is interesting oh that's great they are they hiring no never mind so i just moved past it but i followed them on social media and started to see just what was going on there and eventually there's this post from a a lawmaker she made headlines um she's a what they call a filthy dirty statist but basically what she said is this the free state project is the great single greatest threat to this state as it is and we have to do everything we can to limit their freedoms so they go away and just never come back i saw that i'm just like things are happening here i gotta get there now that was the best best promo for them basically for you that was like oh my god gotta be there then yes and there's okay there are quite you know eight years later there's quite a few legislative victories that some people have had the house majority leader in new hampshire is a free state or he moved here and there's been a whole lot of awesome things that got past the legislature and there's the same except way stronger like ringing of hands oh no this is all going to you know who will all the most awful people are doing the most fantastic advertising for the project now in the same way and i expect there's going to be another wave of people that sees this and just says i gotta this is where it's happening especially when they're being you know restricted in other areas i mean yeah uh i don't think the european experience the european dystopia is anywhere in the us really but there's a few places that are close like a third of the country maybe is sort of close where it's like well i think a los angeles county just reinstituted a an outdoor mask mandate like just now and it's like what and then new york city is making everyone basically yeah it's like a universal vaccine passport to get inside of like establishments and stuff there's a few places that are doing some like dark things like that but then the rest of the country is okay and the more you step you keep hearing about that stuff the more you get scared about the future then you're like oh but those evil people are losing their minds in new hampshire because of whatever's going on there it's like that's a bright spot in the world i mean it's going to go straight there so that's kind of what prompted the move out and then yeah since then it's been like hardcore crypto ever since kind of although you know you know it goes hardcore crypto interesting yeah just fun fact i joined the free state project facebook group recently just because you know i'm also like curious about what's happening in the new brave world and the new frontier maybe of freedom might be in new hampshire you know just just just me and my casual lurking on social media and someone reached out first of all i've never joined a facebook group where actual active members reach out to new members and say hi can i help you i was like yeah whoa this is like first of all facebook is not dead that was my first impression i was like well okay people are still using it's on its way and well yeah to be dead yeah for me facebook was dead and then i joined this then it was actually an active member community with people reaching out to people and then it took i think a day before a real estate agent reached out and was like would you like to uh purchase property in new hampshire and we accept cryptocurrencies and i was like whoa amazing was it porcupine real estate i i i i don't think so no it was someone no i i wasn't even elderly was it a okay was it a um i i don't i don't it wasn't like an institution it was just like a person probably he has his own you know brand or a company uh behind but so like a little a middle-aged tall skinny gentleman yeah he's trying to see yeah okay well i won't dock someone well never mind shout out to porcupine real estate and mark okay i was just like oh my goodness like it's happening and it's it's alive and it's a real thing and i've been just uh just lurking again just lurking in the backgrounds of social media and just uh being just following from afar and i guess being um inspired by the whole movement yeah this guy is yeah just a few a month or so ago i had him we'd meet up at some crypto brewer and he shows up and he just he's like this guy bot is buying a house in bitcoin and like how do we like he was like asking for assistance in like how he's gonna like process the transactions like how many confirmations do you think we should wait for btc before we consider like the down payment final and then like well what are we like just asking a few things it's like how often does that happen where like someone comes to like a meet up in europe and just like all right so this guy just bought a house at bitcoin what do you think we should do for what like not really i mean no not for that i i haven't had that type of interaction here yet yet i'm still hopeful i'm hopeful i am hopeful that as you mentioned earlier that this narrative of using cryptocurrency and not having quote-unquote moon boys or just that very speculative crowd i've been organizing meetups for a couple of months now uh back in person and it's been a mixed crowd but i'm happy to say that it's not only moon boys or moon girls it's it's there's also users and and you know developers and builders and and people that are using cryptocurrency so there is hope there is of course oh it it creates the most beautiful conversations but uh back to you and new hampshire so you land in new hampshire and now you're all in crypto and can you tell us about those early days in crypto or maybe maybe for those that don't know you or know you're because i mean you're kind of a a crypto legend at this point i think a lot of people have been referencing your way of living living unbanked using cryptocurrency for daily payments was that like from one day to the next or was that like a progressive wait how can i integrate crypto more and more into my life it was a progressive thing until an all-in and took that took about two years at first i have to do the preface to address the legend status thing it's well some people like there's a few people that would say that but it's like five and like or maybe 20 but as far as like you know i have like six under seven thousand twitter followers like for the most part no one knows who the hell i am in crypto and then like pomp has like a mill like what we're talking about legends stuff no but i'm talking like i want to emphasize house how like small and maybe i don't want to be too negative how small the percentage of people that actually care about this kind of work that i do is just like it's five people you know it's like almost nobody cares at this point they will care one day maybe but as i was watching um well now me brock roll for those i don't know again as a wonderful wonderful youtuber content creator and you know speaker everything she does a lot of things like one of the three crypto youtubers i like watch a lot of their content on yeah for the art one like you read another one and then scott cunningham does a lot of like he's great on which crypto projects are scams kind of thing especially because the more research yeah because he tries them out and he tries to withdraw funds and that's just you know enough about uh why am i talking about naomi because she has like this great educational series a beginner's educational series that she's made uh yeah over the last couple of months and of course you're referenced and the you know one of them which is i believe how to live off of crypto or how to earn one one of those and i love at some point at some point at the end it's like so um people might call you crazy for doing this and you're like well i think people using fiat and just waiting for their money to go through inflation that's crazy you know that's the crazy part i don't consider myself crazy so okay yeah relative legend but you were recorded by now yeah naomi is i would call it the big fish of the hard course like as far as like the content creators as far as like the celebrity crypto celebrities who's actually like hardcore into the real stuff she's the biggest as of right now about 44 000 twitter followers like and that's as big as it gets like as far as you know what like you could say like roger various stuff but he's kind of he you know he's doing a lot of stuff it's not just that but as far as like the hardcore og focusing just on this stuff and not promoting a big brand or product like it's that and then you get to you know again the pumps of the world like the million twitter followers level and so that's what i'm saying is like maybe i'm looking maybe if i'm a legend i'd be an undercover an undercover like underground legend amongst this tiny segment of the crypto population that actually cares about this stuff and i'm very fine with that like if i had a if i had a million twitter followers but i had a bank account i would not take that trade like that's such a good quote boom like i don't want that fame i don't want that i won't touch that fiat it's like worthless it's like it's like being paid being like a billionaire in venezuelan boulevard it's like who cares like you just got all this stuff that's not worth it like why do i get a million people follow and all i'm doing is like lying to them sorry on top of it we now have a fiat dis so i love this comparison but right so what does it mean what does it mean to live uh unbanked what is it first of all you said that this was over two years um how did it just happen or like yeah how did it happen first like 15 worth of bitcoin i think it was like 0.1 btc is what i got for the pizza and so that was like 15 or so dollars that was late september of 2013. by december was when we had the first time it broke a thousand and that big pump and so quickly my little my pizza was worth like 150 or whatever and i'm like oh wow and in the free state project circles like the free stater community the porcupines that they call themselves um they're like everyone took and sent and spent bitcoin stuff so i spent most of that over the course of the next year like it wasn't you know not not a ton of money anyway but i was just using it here and there and then i was like oh what can i do to get paid in this stuff and i did a bunch of random things to get paid with it like uh there was a a conference a liberty conference in early 2014 and i was giving people rides from the airport and taking bitcoin for it and stuff no way doing like gypsy cab stuff you know yeah yeah no license sorry that's not how i do it but um and then way early in the day there was these early flight flyers called a bitcoin bigfoot where i mean you could look it up it was like a stuff of legend back in the early days but like no one cares anymore but like some of the very early promotional flyers like i'm sure you've heard about like alpaca socks and stuff like that this is that might be going way too far back showing mike yeah i'm uh i'm a late crypto boomer remember yes but basically some of the early legend stuff yeah i like i wrote the copy for those flyers and then i got you know got paid for it and at the time like well you like about 20 16 17 people were like oh like wow you wrote the well that's cool and like now it's just it's gone like no it's just so far in the past of like the early adoption phase of bitcoin and so i just did random things like that whenever i could but then i you know i had a a job teaching taekwondo in one of the cities there for most of the time and then i did some part-time like political canvassing for americans for prosperity which is another very good organization and i just kind of like straddled the line but it was finally what happened was i was so the america's prosperity is a like a libertarian super organization but instead of like a thick tank it's like a do tank rather where it's a lot of you know grassroots activism political canvassing a lot of actual you know results based stuff but not like partisan politics like elect this guy or like that guy or promote the party but just you know promoting legislation on the local levels organizing volunteers a call about certain issues like if they're going to pass a new tax just like organize a big phone bank where everyone calls and say yells at the legislator to stop and like all this kind of stuff and so i did that part time and at some point you know being mr ridiculously overqualified kind of thing there was like a full-time position that opened up and of course i applied for because i'm like oh finally i'm out of this rut finally i'm going to like you know who would have thought that i moved to new hampshire and this is where i'd finally get back into the groove of things of like you know working in that old world and stuff like that and oddly enough i didn't get the job and because of uh the headquarters national headquarters you know there's some kind of basically didn't didn't approve it for whatever reason and the locals say the people who would be my immediate peers and stuff in that situation were very sad over that because they were like they wanted to you know how much proprietary information this all is but basically basically it i knew it wasn't on me like i it wasn't like yeah you're great but i knew it was like some nonsense threw it off right and it was kind of like a sign i think at that point where it's just like yeah yeah i don't know if i you know it's not like a mysticism type thing like it's all part of the plan or maybe maybe not but it just seems like it and then at some other point juncture the opportunity came again and this time it was much more of like a shoe in much more of a yeah just like sign up and get in and i turned it down because i was like you know what this is a sign i i think i need to i don't think i need to be doing this and so then i i turned turned that down and then decided to that was like late 2015 and then i decided you know what i'm just going to stop taking fiat i'm going to just live all on bitcoin this is just i mean i'm interested in the stuff i'm excited on it i'm telling people about it but like while i do other things with my life and i'm just like yeah but you got to use this like what kind of a hypocrite am i like you know it just didn't feel right so i'm like what if i'm serious like why don't i just work in bitcoin just join this and so i did it just that's the you know that's i guess the last time i took fiat for payment for goods and services or whatever it's just late 2015 i was just like i'm done and of course i'm like now i'm like how am i going to pay my bills which is you know it's always a an important philosophical question and it was like over like the christmas week the week of like christmas but i was just like okay well um i'm just gonna email cointelegraph and see if i can write and then within like an hour they emailed me back and that's how i got my start so there's that big story arc right there and i had not um my even though my i like journalistic roots i had not been a journalist and i in 2011 i started a blog called the desert links where i just sat like because i wanted to be a writer people said i was good at it i was like well i want to like write op-eds and stuff like that professionally or some i wanted i didn't know how to break in so i'm like you know what i just want to start so i wrote this on the site for many years and that's kind of what got my writing skills and then i sort of learned journalism on the job with the crypto journalism scene so that's kind of where that whole thing ended up wheel all right so you're now full into crypto how does your family react to that or they're like wait what happened to joel you know living in new hampshire only crypto did like the people around you get it were they like whoa what are you doing what was the the general reaction yeah so first off i had a bunch of like libertarian friends in the phoenix area right and they were when i decided like move out they're just like oh man like oh that's just so hardcore like i wish i could be doing it too but i got all this stuff going on here and stuff there was like a lot of that like oh dude he's doing it he's like hardcore like he's like you know yeah he's like climbing the mountain all alone and fighting bears it's like that kind of like vibe and my family was just like well why are you moving so far away you should stick you know there's always like it's like the default family reaction it's like oh okay if you want to but you know you should be closer so you can visit more often kind of thing and oh i mean they're they're they're interested in it i think it's like oh cool like oh that's uh and the more headlines about it the more it's like oh i was on something cool it was always like positive and supportive and things like that but just kind of not really knowing what's going on and honestly like why would they because i didn't really know what's going on like i was just there this is cool i'm gonna do this you know smash the state woo like you know yeah wow interesting and so you've been now living unbanked for a couple of years and i know you've mentioned uh a couple of services and products that help you live this way right because some listeners are going to be like this is not possible like how does this guy do this yeah well first i'd like to say i used a bake account for december january like five or so months of this thing and mostly used it to like sell or cash out so i could pay my rent and then the rest i was just trying to use services and then the bank screwed me uh basically someone someone forged a check in my name and just cleaned out my account like right before rent was due it was stressful i was on the phone for a few days and then they finally like reversed the whole thing because you know you can do that with fiat right and okay they even show like a picture of the check and it was like not even remotely my name or my signature anything and just like someone just randomly wrote some things on a piece of paper and then just took all my money and that you let them and so then the bank was just like all right well this thing's you know here's all the money back this account's been compromised but so you got we're closing this account and you can open it will open a new one i'm like that sounds great except i'm not opening a new one and it was kind of more of a spur of the moment like you know screw that i don't want to you know i'm done with this this nonsense kind of thing like you know let me just not open it and i was thinking like maybe i'd do another bank or something but then i just like you know what how about no bank and i just didn't open a bank account and so that's kind of where that ended up so that's um five years in now about a little over five years and what we realize yeah i don't know what the financial system's like in other parts of the world really uh oh other developed parts of the world the developing parts of the world is just almost no one you know i would say almost no one's banked but like a vast vastly smaller amount like most a giant chunk of the economy runs outside of the banking system anyway you know just the way you know i mean the border guards in mexico never took you know uh they never had a card reader when they wanted bribes and stuff you know it was just so doesn't happen as much and well actually you know what my parents said that actually happened like this year like they got shaken down for a bribe but whatever so one thing we have to realize is it it's kind of like when you jump into that world you realize that it's not like oh man you're the first hardcore owned bank living on crypto say well you might be one of the first hardcore unbanked people living off of crypto but there's lots of unbanked people there's a lot of them and for example in the u.s i don't know how modern this statistic was but there were at least like there are over 10 million illegal immigrants in the u.s and i to put that into perspective for people who kind of know the rough geography that's more than the population of maine vermont new hampshire and massachusetts combined it's just that's a lot of people that aren't legally supposed to be here but you know they still live here right and if you're not if you're not supposed to exist you're not you can't have a bank account unless you you know do some weird shenanigans or borrow your aunties car card who was like born here and stuff like so there's a lot of there's a lot of people like that um there's it's incredibly easy to accidentally get on bank for whatever reason for example if you don't have a permanent address you can't have a bank account and so for example uh i believe the i was speaking with uh marshall greenwald who that's an interesting person you should maybe talk to at some point he's relatively new to the crypto thing he's a ceo of crepe which is a company that does um that basically lets you save on your uh gets rewards points and save on purchases with your credit card but they recently partnered with dash and created an app called dash direct which basically lets anyone live on crypto it's kind of like it's basically the cheat code it's like a one app solution for how i've been trying to live my life for the last five years just one app you could 155 000 plus merchants around the us it geolocates it so you can see what places around you can spend super easy user flow like up to 15 savings on this stuff no kyc no custodial anything and so that's my big dash direct shill for the the thing it's not all about that it's for me but i'll leave your all your links uh your bit refill and i hope now you have a dash direct uh affiliate going on because yeah i don't have an affiliate code but so marshall you know you're doing me dirty like i'm on the biggest show on the biggest show i've been on so far you know i don't even have a code to drop how dare you anyway so as he was saying in an interview i did with him for his business he had to rent office space because the bank would not take a post office box that you rent and they would not take a they would not give him a business bank account from a home address so he literally had to pay you know i guess thousands of dollars a month i don't know how much it costs just to have like an empty office just so they would let him have a bank account yeah and it's the same thing with people right think about all the situations that would cause you to you know to not have a permanent address for a period of time like let's just say you're moving uh and something happens at the last minute where you don't renew your lease they already rent it out to someone else the new place you're going to uh something happens without it burns down but that's that's dramatic or just something happens we're like oh yeah sorry i'm you know uh my daughter's coming home she's dropped out of university so i'm going to like i'm going to need i'm going to put her in the place instead sorry i'm not going to run rent to you anymore or there's always like something that could happen and then now oops you thought you had a place to live now you don't and you're like okay well there's like a few week period where i'm just gonna stay with friends or in a hotel room until i can find a new place to rent oh wait you can just lose your bank account now you're unbanked and your life enters a terrible downward spiral from that moment on and so when you see crazy homeless people on the street there's a lot of people who are like veterans of wars who have a lot of psychological trauma there's a lot of drug addicts there's a lot of that and then there's some people that just hit a rough patch in life got unbanked and then straight to the bottom of the world so that's i mean that's really sad but like i started to see there is an unbanked way of doing things the cash only world in the us and in most of the world again i guess the developed parts of asia and then western europe and maybe not as much but you can do stuff like that so for example um one of the weirdest things is you know this is one of those like you know sort of isle of capitalism type moments uh walmart is a fantastic business because you can first off you could live off of like no money and so for example when i went through like lean times in my life i would have like a 10 a week grocery budget i could make it through by buying stuff at walmart you know like just buy like five items and then just like it would blast me like you can do it and the thing is walmart is a [Music] you know it's a it's a superstore you know large big box store as they call it but they have all kinds of different services and things a lot of which appeal to the you know the unbanked so for example if you have a job if like you have a job like let's say you work construction or something and you don't have a bank account and then your boss gives you a check like a paper check again i'm sure like all the europeans are just like rolling on the floor laughing at this point because it's like wow that's that old there do still exist paper checks by the way people still use them i know france does and we're not looking up to them for that apparently so you get the like the paper check or like how else they gonna pay paper check or money i mean if you don't have a direct deposit it's either just cash or it's easier to just write a check so you take a check which you take to the bank but you don't have a bank so you go to a cert a check cashing service which usually are kind of you know predatory i guess they charge you a lot of money because you you're unbanked you have no other option right but so walmart has their own version of that they have a financial services center that you can just get get cash out of that and then you they can also pay bills for you so if you have a big nothing but cash you can pay and they even advertise pay your child support bill here for like you know really you can pay your taxes there you can do whatever just with a big cash they take a little fee on it but it's like walmart for example and it's not just walmart but this is just one business is like a bank for the unbanked and like i had i had no idea you're giving us little like i don't know concrete pearls of uh knowledge on the ground of what it's like for certain population on banks yes and the interesting thing about walmart which i don't they're not on dash direct yet but then shout out to refill which you can't sign up a bit refill my promo code dcn anyway um don't worry everybody all the links will be below we'll show you have a link they do have a you know walmart gift cards that you get one percent off if you get it and walmart has their own app called walmart pay that you can put in your card or your bank info or whatever but also you can load it with gift cards and they really like you to use this because walmart's business model and this is not the walmart podcast by the way just a great example of a lot of stuff but their business models they sell stuff insanely cheap that they make slightly cheaper and they run on very thin margins high volume thin margin and three to five reminds me of another business model around about like high volumes low transaction fee stuff but yeah that's enough yeah you're talking about actual successful cryptocurrency projects or something anyway i don't know one of those so if they're paying like three percent credit card fees or five percent that's killing them and so what if they just develop their own payment solution and give people small incentives to use this so then they don't have to like just eat all these fees processing things so you get these gift cards for so much you put the gift cards into your wallet pay app you scan the qr code at the register and it pays instantly it's like really fast and so you can buy just about everything in walmart like that including there's a gas pump outside the walmart around me and so you can just go fuel up and just just pay her like that there i have other gas hacks but that's a and the thing is wow until recently and i know some people who are using this but you could there's a way of using that with like a bill pay thing so you go like the money center and be like here's my electricity bill i'm going to use the walmart pay thing and then use gift code gift credit to like pay your bills you could do that they stopped letting you do that with gift codes now like in the last year or two but that was that was possible for a little while and so some of this like unbanked adventure thing is kind of like use a good service until it's you know use it while it's there because it's not gonna be there forever yeah and so like that's that's a big part of the unbanked thing there's a lot of people who especially like new hampshire for example it's a very and it is another place where like europeans are going to laugh at it but it's a very old part of the country and by by american standards it's very old i should say because so like the town uh the town of dover where i live in again don't don't follow me around town please uh you know i will i will open fire on you if you threaten me just saying you anyone can conceal carry a weapon around here so don't you consider yourself warned okay yes but in 20 you know 2023 two years from now it's celebrating it's 400th anniversary it was initially settled in 1623 as the second oldest permanent settlement in north america i think it's pretty old yeah it's old but it's not like you know like or whatever it's just like old old like really old uh but the most of the rental properties most of the are never advertised in new hampshire like 90 i think like they never if you have a room up for rent or something it doesn't go on apartments.com it doesn't go to any of these other sites it's just word of mouth it's like very okay local economy kind of like and it's funny because when i lived in phoenix where like literally half of phoenix like 40 percent of the metro area is also undocumented immigrant which you know there's just a lot of the word of mouth kind of the way stuff works this is like upper class like upper middle class white people word of mouth it's the same thing but a completely different group of people that just like they don't want to have random people right they want to rent to people they know and if they have that luxury they can right oh yeah i know me a guy you have this you know reference from there okay let's let you a lot of like word of mouth agreement so it's become pretty easy to talk like it's been pretty easy to not need a bank account because you're sort of outside of the system being in because anyone can do anything around here right it's it's very it's very like easy to do peer-to-peer transactions and so yeah as a cash only person so i have a friend again who is like me but less voluntarily so because he does not have a birth certificate his parents just said like oh you're gonna be born you know we don't want you on any database or whatever and he just you know he doesn't exist right he's a human who doesn't exist but he's there i know he's a good guy and so like working with yeah first off you find out that it's kind of the same thing as like when you get out of prison like what can you do because people aren't going to hire you for normal things if you get out of prison so it's either like manual labor type jobs or you know low end like fast food or whatever or you got to get into like entertainment or show business or something like that it's like those two those are your options or you know if you entrepreneurs start your own business but it's got to be cash only because no one's going to give you a bank account with your criminal record or you know like so basically him like him and i are practical felons right we're not actually i didn't do anything wrong we don't actually don't have actually a criminal record but it's like the same world kind of and so he just started a a business from where a cat like a cash-only business because that's all he has from word of mouth after moving from another state very far away right like almost around as far as me and so when he comes here there you go you can do it because it's just like oh yeah i have a guy who can do that and yeah he only takes cash but he's a good guy and then you can kind of do that so the cash only world now i have to do so basically i'm just setting up the thing of like wow you don't need a bank the unbanked part the crypto part of it is using crypto for a lot of services that do like a lot of amazon based things like purse like using bit refill for the amazon gift cards if you don't want to wait around for purse paying your prepaid phone thingy with bit refill or another phone top up service there's like a lot of that stuff going on of course just gift a lot of gift cards for major retailers then there's a lot of you know i sell some crypto so i get some cash so i can go to this restaurant that i just want to go here and i don't want to harass him about crypto kind of thing you know like hey everyone let's go out oh let's all go out there and like sore girls i can't go to that one because it doesn't use my magic stupid fake internet money like just there's like a lot of that which is that part has got started to shrink over the years the part of like i gotta sell some to do some cash thing here real quick that part's gotten really you know much of the chagrin of people because there's a huge market for people who want to buy crypto anonymously for cash or just you know without all that kyc nonsense and so now they're like hey you want to sell me something like no sorry like hit me up a couple years ago but so then there's of course a lot of oh yeah i know like we're sole proprietorship businesses or there's just like a couple that runs this farm that takes crypto up north we buy all our stuff from them or there's another one who takes crypto for that and then there's a lot of kind of that going on and then there's also a lot of hey i need this and then the bank person is like oh yeah i'll i'll buy that for you i'll give you just give me crypto i'll do it for you and there's like that's kind of like how the whole thing is work but the more over time the it's like it's become a lot easier with each passing year live off a crypto unbanked and the amount of uh like going into cash that percentage of it has been shrinking and tricking and drinking and shrinking yeah and hopefully within five years i won't have to do it i won't ever do it at all i i was about to ask like we're talking well you've given a pretty good case of how you can live unbanked how it's a thing how it's actually a thing for a lot of people who are it's for whom it's not even a choice and you're doing this purposefully and as you just mentioned you're seeing benefits and you're seeing it getting easier and easier you know with services like dash direct another shout out another plugin for you guys there that's direct.org get set up direct.org um do you see how do you how do you see this in like i don't know you said now five years but five ten years from now do you think more and more people will be unbanked and do this purposefully or do you think crypto users that are using crypto as a mean of exchange are going to just be one of those rare cases that we'll just have for the history books but it won't become a thing i just from the culture that you've you've briefly got you know mentioned maybe the the maxis around or the fact that you know btc is difficult to spend or that just the narrative around spending cryptocurrencies is not the most popular thing like not everyone is jumping on board that narrative and do you think like what's your perspective for this like do you think yeah what do you think like in 10 years what would it look like and are you more of a pessimist or more of an optimist on this question well given a longer time frame i believe it's an absolute inevitability yeah like over a long enough period of time i do believe first off people talk about cbdc's all the time central bank digital currencies which you know whatever if you include those it's like 110 chance if that even exists that everyone's going to be using digital stuff very soon as far as using like it's it's everyone's gonna be using some like if you have the choice which people do have the choice and they will have the choice unless there becomes some giant totalitarian takeover which i'm not seeing happening i'm seeing a giant totalitarian global effort but i don't think they're gonna win i mean just the fact of so many people i don't know what the stats are now but after less than a year like from like 2020 the during 2020 over a hundred thousand people like 150 000 people left california right and a hundred a hundred and some thousand people left new york like these terrible places they left and then most of them ended up in texas in florida and i think a bunch a few in new hampshire but it's kind of like kind of like you know talking about the hardcore like like undercover legend it's like it's a well-kept secret up here but not not intentionally just that you know people people in their lizard brains oh big state i've heard of let's move there but it's um i don't like the homeschooling interest is at record highs like it used to be like people didn't even know anyone who's homeschooled now i know a bunch i know a bunch of people who want to homeschool and amongst the politically left leaning has been the largest percentage growth in that is in the kinds of people who typically are in the size of teachers unions and public education all that kind of stuff there's they've had a giant explosion when that and with all the you know everyone's fighting to mask the poor children all the time in schools and then a bunch of states are have passed laws banning that from public schools banning like mandatory masses and then the federal government is considering suing those states and taking the court to try to you know force matt like it's the blowback from all this nonsense is going to be epic and i right like i don't see a giant totalitarian takeover where they can just like crush you know freedom i see him trying like maybe i'm just an optimist but again i live in a place that has gotten progressively freer in the last eight years right and yeah so as far as like that's a long way of answering the crypto thing i do think that even if everyone's using cbdc's everyone a much higher percentage of people or for everyone a much higher percentage of their economic activity will be able to be done in decentralized cryptocurrencies right and so i i think that's in that part is like uh everyone's going to be using some kind of a permissionless decentralized thing eventually i give that like a 95 or something it's like it's up there okay okay you said a longer time frame do we need like another 50 years 100 years is this like how you know like for the 95 to 100 chance type thing of everyone using decentralized things or everyone being able to and is within like 50 or 70 years i don't know my timing's off because everything's happening so fast right right but as far as uh a lot of people will be using crypto for payments and stuff that time frame is ten years like it's gonna be coming up and i've been in crypto for eight years right so just double that and just about everyone's gonna be using i think i really think we're just on the cusp of a couple of breakthrough events um to make it happen like uh like i keep on mentioning like the dash direct thing and it's not uh just to show the specific thing but it's a great it's a great analysis of what we need because if i only accept crypto for payments versus whatever so that's all i have and i find ways of using it and sometimes it's clunky sometimes it works well but that's all i got who is going to go link their bank account to let's just say a service like uphold or liquid exchange or something like that and then just be like all right i'm going to buy some crypto and they do it yay you know charge you one one percent or two percent fee or whatever it is and then you get like this and then it goes up or down in value or whatever whatever it does and then you're like all right i'm gonna go spend it where do i spend it and they go i'm gonna go buy this gift card for this thing that then i like redeem and then like you know and i do it when i could just beep tap my card like yeah yeah for sure people want to but like uh just yeah but then we need the infrastructure right we we sort of we we need to if we're going to tell people okay drop via here's crypto it has to be easier it has to be faster it has to be cheaper it has to be all those things otherwise it's like oh it's just a hassle or i'm doing it for purely ideological reason and not everybody is like hardcore endophia you know yes of course but that's why this dash direct breakthrough i think this is the first in a series of breakthroughs because first off the company that makes it makes the exact same product almost for fiat so people are already going through this exact same user experience voluntarily with fiat in order to save some money and if they use crypto they save a lot more money and so it's like we've already tested like will people use this yes they're already using it with fiat if you use the user flow with crypto it's like oh i can actually spend my crypto if i have some or i can i'll buy some to save money they're already going through that they're they might as well do the version that saves you more money and i've already like anecdotally seen stuff i've had you know people say like hey like let me show you like i want to explain it's like no don't explain it to me let me just try to figure it out and they figure it out like without hand-holding and i think that this is the point where you can just say look why don't you buy like let's just say a thousand dollars a month or you know whatever that is like 900 euros or whatever the exchange rate is these days uh a month and in crypto and dash specifically in this case right once you just do that so you have don't have fiat exposure and then just spend it download this one app yeah whenever you go out hit the map button it shows you where you can do it you can even send it to google maps or waze or whatever you go there buy the thing you feel all cool because you're part of the future because you bought this stuff you could do it you save let's say five percent doing it like you do it a couple times you're used to it now every the average person can just i'm going to buy some a month and then do this i'm going to buy and oh it's so cool i'm saving all this money here and then the couponing community at least in the usa is very big a lot of housewives and stuff find ways of saving and stuff through all these promos and deals and stuff and so they could be the the secret weapon for like crypto mass adoption to start out with but more importantly once it's out of the bag like i talk about you know dash a lot and like the old school kind of thing but like once dash debuted a like an in system coin joint thing basically an advanced privacy feature back in 2014. then you had monero come along then you had zcash then you now with bitcoin cash with like cash fusion and stuff like that like now the cat's out of the bag then it's like oh we got protocol level development funding in terms of a decentralized autonomous organization now the dow's everywhere eric voorhees is oh dab down and all this kind of stuff you know then a little instant payments and stuff like no one cares as much about that yet but they will but it's like you can go spend in like we have this user experience that people actually use yeah and it's not going to stop with dash it started maybe but now everyone's going to be like like do you think roger veer is like on the phone with uh marshall of crepe right now be like can i throw a big old bag of bitcoin cash to make a bitcoin cash version of this like maybe again maybe i'm predicting two weeks from now it's happening okay there's like a few dash faithful they're doing this and stuff and hopefully a lot more people you know which i'm trying to but then it's not going to stop with that every project is going to have there's going to be like nano direct or whatever the hell can i you know can i actually end yes maybe this is a good moment as well to ask again maybe not everybody's familiar listening to what is dash because i think that's probably the i mean we won't go into eternal tangent but like just in a few words because i know you're in my network at least you're my dash expert i'm not gonna actually i'm gonna take off those error quotes i think you're pretty much you know really well this the project you use you've been using dash for years um there's different cryptocurrencies out there wanting to be digital cash um what is dash and why dash maybe like why out of the several out there that are trying to be digital cash what makes dash different yeah so let me preface this let me tell my story of how i ended up there as a more kind of accurate thing everyone starts with bitcoin because or everyone did i don't know if you need to anymore you can start with ethereum or other things you start with like finance smart chain if you care i don't know but you could do whatever you want back in the day you started with bitcoin so i was using bitcoin for like my only money for like eight months nine months something like you know and it worked well in the beginning um a lot of these solutions like the gift card solution thing like if i'm gonna go to you know a shopping mall and buy something and they don't take crypto directly but then you have a like you know bear can you go into some new jeans so you can buy like american uh gift card and then at the register they scan the little barcode and then you pay that way so the efficient the easiest way to do that of course is just to whenever you're home just buy some and then you have like this constant like gift card tally for wherever you end up going that's easier but that's a lot of waste right because you just have the unless look oh i like if you go to let's again say something like walmart right or like amazon amazon's a big one like because if you just buy 500 worth of amazon credit every once in a while you spend 200 of it what you're just never going to use amazon again come on of course it's not a waste but it's like let's just say oh yeah i want to go out there and you know let me get a like i need a new suit because i'm going to this crypto conference and then they're one of the suit conferences for some reason which they don't really exist anymore but and so you know if ken bozak can go on stage in his freaking pajamas then maybe i don't need a suit but then again that is ken bosack so i want to get a suited express so i go to express and i'm like all right the total is like because i got the super on sale this and that whatever it's like 287 for everything and so i buy like a 300 gift card so first off how do i know it's 300 um i i don't know until like basically i'd have to just buy three to five hundred dollars of credit ahead of time use it and then just have all this leftover stuff that i don't it's very inefficient so you need to be able to buy it in store and kind of like how inefficient funding channels is right now because you have to make sure that you transact that amounts in the payment channel yes but that's another that's another conversation the teaser on that part is the lightning network channel like interconnected problem is actually not that big of a problem the problem i foresee is going to be liquidity this and just the cost of the locked up capital but that's a teaser for a future video i'll do so make sure you check that out but anyway um so you need to be able to buy in person and i was using a service called gift gyft which uh so i believe vinnie lingam um founded that back of the day or co-founded or something but as you could buy gift cards and like store your gift cards all in one spot with bitcoin and you could buy like you know integers or whatever or like 25 50 worth stuff like that and so sometimes i'd have some leftover stuff i'd have to to where it was a little bit of a struggle because also i was poor at the time and i couldn't like afford to have like i need those eight bucks worth of this or whatever but they accepted zero confirmation transactions and delivered the gift card in relatively short order so i'd tally up in my head this is how much all this stuff costs i'd buy a gift card for close to that amount you know because it wasn't accurate i just buy it there and it would take like a minute or two to you know show up and then then i'd head to the register with everything and at some point bitcoin became congested and this is where you know where roger vera intensifies right like where i start to get into you know the code used to work and then the fees became high and you know that's where i start to get in that mode because then it became expensive and slow and by slow and by expensive i mean like five cents transaction now starting to get into like the five cent territory and then the ten cent territory and then they stop accepting zero confirmations and not have to wait for confirmation before they give me a gift code i do remember like waiting in a shopping mall for like two hours for it to complete before i get it and yeah it just became it there's a great intro this is a great way of like talk for a half hour about dash without even mentioning it first but anyway so basically long story short i ended up not being able to live feasibly live on bitcoin anymore became a hardship more than already living unbanked off of crypto already was you know yeah so it was a hardship and i just i gotta quit this i can't do this anymore and i didn't want to quit so i said well what else am i going to use so go down literally the market cap list um bitcoin top scratch that off doesn't work ethereum well ethereum was still cheap at the time people are trying to get me to use it but you know now we see what a huge mistake that would have been but i was saying like ethereum like people aren't trying to use it as money get rid of that litecoin this is before charlie pumped it to the to heaven it was abandoned it was sink it was where dogecoin was before elon started tweeting about it like a dead project and so like no i can't do that this is a year at least before bitcoin cash even existed right right like and then it's like oh there's dash and what i knew about dash is it used to be called dark coin was basically a bitcoin copy except you had like a in like a built-in coin mixing thing for like added privacy but then since then i heard by you know oh they have this instant send functionality that lets you like confirm in like two seconds if you check a little box and then the end service uses it all right whatever so i knew dash digital cache it's like the other i already kind of knew about them but like it was mostly focused on bitcoin because that was what everyone used and i'm like well this one works too but like i don't know if enough people use it to where i can actually get away with it and so i just said you know screw it i'll i'll try it i'm just gonna switch so i switched everything over those seven dollars per dash at the time was the rate just way back in the late 2016 era and then i just switched to dash because it worked so the reasons it does work over let's say a bitcoin is the the one reason which a lot of other projects can claim i guess is the on-chain scaling thing is uh first off dash blocks are four times or come out four times as fast as a bitcoin block so that's four times capacity too and they're two megabytes right now with which you know so eight eight times bitcoin's on chain capacity right now and that's just for the time being as you know as they start to actually fill up they'll be raised because the there's actually university research at arizona state university for blockchain scaling that has been done specifically for dash and has found that dash could easily scale to paypal levels for example with a bunch of stuff and dr darren tapp who's a fantastic he's a gentleman and a scholar for sure he's a fantastic scaling researcher um is you know i think he works for the debt he run he works for the dash investment foundation right now but he's uh he's done a lot of good research on that to basically show that dash cans dash with its specific scaling properties can't scale you know obviously there's bitcoin scaling research both you know like bitcoin unlimited and stuff like that which is mostly bitcoin cash based now and then of course like the bitcoin sv crowd just like putting out the gigantic the hugest blocks they can and just seeing if they stick like there's a lot of evidence that you can put out a lot of transactions on chain and that's kind of that's a long term thing that's the number one reason that it just worked as a bitcoin substitute it's like okay it's going to be cheap and we're not going to run out of space and you don't see an issue like with the btc narrative where they wouldn't want to scale like that's not a is that that's that a thing is that something you would be worried about like what's the culture around scaling the culture is let's see how big we can make this thing okay not at all no okay there is and i it's not the btc narrative it's the theory of narrative too vitalik put out something about like sharding and stuff and this is just the other day i believe or not too long ago but put out a thing about everyone needs to be able to run their own node in order to secure against you know secure decentralization and so that is the direction of bitcoin and ethereum and those things are a filter a they're a there's something that's always going to be encounter a little bit to on-chain massive scaling it's just and the thing is i agree with the base sentiment of if because you need like miners right miners are paid because miners process transactions so your full mining nodes whatever you get a point of the part of the black reward all the new inflation supply but even when the inflation runs out you get the fees of people transacting so you always are going to have a business model with that but then there's a lot of people that need to run non-mining nodes like let's just say an exchange runs their own node or a wallet provider runs their own node to do stuff like that and at some point it becomes super expensive not super expensive but expensive to where you're not just like for example this is my lightning node that's running right now you know we shouldn't speak of lighting too much now but i'm saying wait is it off you can't have that off man oh okay it's just sleeping okay yes but it's just the screens off because you know battery it should be a raspberry pi according to the church of lightning but whatever so you can run a lot of nodes on small hardware and stuff yeah but with mass scaling it you can't really you start to have to you know run dedicated hardware and that costs money that means hobbyists won't really do it because why it's too expensive for a hobby at that point so someone is going to have to do it and of course big companies and big exchanges will be able to either afford it as a consequence of their business or they'll put a business model around it and so for example they'll run a wallet and just say all right well we're tacking on a two cent transaction fee for in addition to whatever the miners take in order to just fund the infrastructure to make this happen that's a valid concern now and then as a as a node who's also processing and basically offering financial services they'll have to kycu for not only doing that probably yeah probably if it's like a custodial type thing and so basically it is a valid concern that eventually you'll have like a dozen or like 20 big nodes out there and the government knows knows where they are and can kind of go to them and say you need to do kyc on your users or you need to filter data out you need to like check with ip addresses and device stuff and just we want like it does become an actual problem i guess now dash solved this problem again i don't think this is this is just a natural like like you you never solve poverty or world hunger or something like you mostly solve it but like it's just it's a aspect of life that there's just always going to be scarcity there's always going to be you know you can't just like world peace okay you can have like no major wars but people will still end up killing each other to a much smaller degree but will still happen it's kind of the same thing with like scaling it's not it's never infinite you can scale to serve everyone but it's still you know and so the same thing it's solid because dash's nodes you could still run your a regular node but most of the infrastructures run on a network of masternodes which are basically beefy nodes you have to prove that you own a thousand units a dash in order to run one and then you get paid part of the block reward and you get paid for some transactions and things like that and so because of that you don't have to be a company that has an ulterior motive to run this into scaling infrastructure it just you run a beefy node that can take all the on-chain scaling you want you have to pay more but you get paid to do it and so because that that's a proprietary thing in the dash network it's not like well some other company has to run it because otherwise they wouldn't make money like you can literally your entire business like as a dash hobbyist you can be a professional hobbyist kind of you get paid to do this and so it's just like the bitcoin economic system works very well in terms of incentives with a couple of missing things like you don't get paid to be a developer and you don't get paid to run a node which are two things that people do need to do and other all these other systems have had various struggles in dealing with that like for example the you know the bitcoin cash development team bitcoin abc just you know caused a big fork because they're like we don't we need more money for what we're doing i must admit seeing your latest video did give me a little bit of a ptsd i did watch it yes it was half painful half reassuring half good riddance moment it but you know yeah wishing them all the best and well that's the thing is they solved bitcoin beacon adc sorry ecash solved the developer funding thing now i don't know if the argument of course is here's the thing that's what i'm saying they solved did they though what is the trade-off for the solving that's the question yeah and and i and i noticed in the show that he never answered that he purposely well you know supposedly it's not you know launched yet basically it's all of this council stuff will be as of november he said but yeah i mean like yeah zcash never really solved it either they started out in the exact same situation yeah then they had their own you know governance not not an example to solve they also yes but that's what i'm saying and then downfall it's one of those things but basically everything should be funded everything my point of view is the free market should fund just about everything but when there's things where like a decentralized cryptocurrency which is it's not really like a business it's like a decentralized network that anyone can use without permission they're the genius of bitcoin was adding a fee and reward model to something that's like a it's like a open source creative commons type of a deal right and you know a free open source software that somehow you get paid to run and the problems they had they had little gaps in what gets done so development and running all of the infrastructure are were not compensated from the actual thing so having that in dash with the masternode system allows you to do a bunch of other cool stuff but mostly just lets you scale and without problems and of course i'm sure bitcoin.com will always run enough uh bitcoin cash nodes to make things work and i'm sure that they'll do because i know roger is a great dude i'm sure they'll always find a way to make sure that that doesn't censor people and remains outside of the government's grubby greasy little claws like but the thing is not everyone's blessed with roger vera to do this kind of stuff sometimes you're blessed or cursed with like a crack right in calvin air in which case it's very different so that's like the big thing and yeah obviously there's the instant trend the instant transaction function for dash used to be a opt-in feature which means which meant it was basically useless because only some wallets knew how to do it and almost none knew how to recognize it and so you got this cool instant experience sometimes but then yeah it wasn't until like 2018 i can't i think 2018 when every transaction became instant send by default for no extra fee and that coincidentally is when marshall the crepe direct guy actually took an interest in dash and crypto in general he kind of watched it but he was like oh yeah it's no good until it was like oh all transactions are instantly settled this works with my business model i'm gonna start doing it now and so okay that was a big thing which i didn't have the pleasure of dealing with for like the first two or so years two or three years of using dash but to sort of answer that question that we were doing like you know an hour and a half ago or whatever it was about um about switching so about half of the stuff i spent bitcoin on i could use dash on at that time right and then the other half or maybe a third a third to a half i could use dash on but let's just go with the third and then the other two thirds i had to use like their shape shift option because everything at that point everyone you know just did bitcoin and at some point who took my martial coin was like yeah and then so what they do is they slap on a lazy like shape shift option where you could just say i pay with dash and i pay with dash at it when it confirms or processes or whatever then it gets converted bitcoin it actually pays the thing so it was about two-thirds of it was that in the beginning is is there any so dash right now i'm not gonna go and check coin market cap but do you feel like for having lived off of it for following the development closely what's missing right now or is this like the most underrated project ever like because how you're talking about it they solve many issues they've solved you know the the funding you know the the also the passive node active node question the dow like a lot of things what's what's missing you know why isn't there like a larger market share basically for the dash community well i was pointing out the hardcore stuff um earlier about like naomi has like 40 000 twitter followers and she's like right queen of the the top of the heap the celebrity of the actually use crypto for stuff by the way go follow naomi wherever you go she's naomi go subscribe to her follow her yeah yes watch her point desk too i like like that she got the little show and she's like the one person with like common sense on that show which is always a tough tough thing to do but whatever yeah so to answer the general question uh i mean just look at how many of the top cryptocurrencies are fiat how many are stable coins and then how many are centralized how many are actual like scams and how many are things that are like dogecoin that just add no one cares about oh wait this guy tweets about it and then everyone is like moon boying over it so the metric of coin market cap is not just does not matter that much it does but it doesn't it it matters in a lot of ways but you get up there i can't i'm sorry i'm i i have to now check coin i have to look at it i can't believe solana is now up there and i'm i'm actually like not happy about just mentioning them i might bleep this out but just because um they you know what i'll bleep and then people have to guess they've lied twice about their supply that's it yeah well that's what i'll say about that let's take a section a segment further what does clean market cap rank hex at i don't want to know just just look at it because this is i'm like destructive moments i'm i'm looking for a dash well look at hex look at hex first okay okay okay all right that's right that's good context for dash oh gosh hex you know that's that's an actual it's an actual i mean i don't know well the hex people are gonna come after us but like that's an actual scam it's an actual scam the smart contract is built to steal funds like that's that's it i'll say that it's an actual pyramid scheme which is not necessarily a scam and there's a lot of people involved who know it they just just think that they're going to be higher up the pyramid so i don't know if that's a scam but it's sketchy okay it's 201 well here's the thing if you do the coin market cap actual like supply like the the actual math hexis is third on coin on the actual market cap rankings because of the number of coins times the this is was as of like a day or two ago i don't know if it's changing okay but if you do the number of coins out there times this times the price per coin on the on the markets it's third but coin market cap chooses to say well this much of the supply is like we don't count that as circulating supply because you you time lock your funds in order to stake and stuff and that doesn't matter and then i mean how much of ethereum is tied up in different smart contracts or backing is collateral behind assets that are also listed on coin market cap so ethereum that only have value because of the theorem locked up so there's just a lot of shenanigans on the market gap ranks it's kind of meaningless you know it's just like saying i mean at least if you're like the number one tick-tocker you know that the most human eyeballs reach your content at least that's a metric that means something market cap is just i i agree and i think i i'll back off from the coin market cap ranking thing i think it's just did i just depress you too much no no well first of all i think as uh you know me as a i don't look at the price either i'm a terrible chart person i don't look at that and my cousin's always then like saying did you see this or that this pumped and i'm like you have too much energy i i can't i can't hold i can't do this i i don't i've given up i'm not a good trader i've given my invest most of my investment portfolio now is in the hands of cyber capital so i just i that pressure of the market let's just say shout out to cyber capital but that pressure is just not on me right i don't have that sort of oh my god where did the market go overnight thing i i don't have that um but i feel like dash um has so many of the good fundamentals you know i just um if if you had like a magic wand is there anything that you would add on dash or is there anything you would change and i you know is there a proposal you'd like to make it go through is that there's a few there's quite a few and i'll mention those but yeah just to go over the market cap thing the market cap thing poses two questions first off is why do you really care about this stuff and is it to be like mad sick gains and stuff like that and the answer for a lot of people is you know yes the answer for me is well that's not why i got into it so i don't need to care about market cap ranking on that thing the other thing is at the same time the market cap ranking is a free market indicator to a certain extent what does the market value right now and i mean we see what they value and the thing about the free market free market's never wrong that's the thing that takes a while to like you know eos got four billion maybe that wasn't wrong where's he asked now by the way well you know they tried delegated proof of stake and then they saw how that went yeah but that's what i'm saying is the free market is undefeated as i call it the free market is never like you can't say it's wrong oh yeah the market decided wrong no it always decides right you might not agree with it or the mostly you just might not understand it and so first off the free market has so far said most people want to make more money more than they care about decentralized digital cash right now and if they're not wrong to do so it because most people like when was the last time you were denied a purchase you tried to buy something with your card or your account and then you got denied for like no no you've bought too many of that today or you can't buy that product or service does that happen in your life often so why what do you gain from peer-to-peer digital cash i mean think about it this time will come when it will matter but right now now on the other hand can you just like i talk about ken bozak's story of getting into crypto where he just like oh i'm starting to get gray hair in my beard shout out to ken bosack shout out to ken hey bro bro uh he he wanted to just invest because that's what adults do so he hears about snapchat he goes to his bank says i want to buy into the snapchat ip i want to and they just laugh at them like you're not an accredited investor get out of here and like everyday people can't get ahead they're stuck in the thing or they have to go through these complicated retirement accounts with these other inve like they can't just say i want to put money into this company just does it's illegal to do that you cannot do that and so but guess what you can do you can go open a base account and buy any going on there and then make it rich so the free market is correct they're undefeated it's right that's the big need that's being solved now of course the market gets saturated you know oh yeah doge i can retire into okay whatever people do that they have their gambling then what do people invest in they invest in tech that because they feel like the tech is going to solve problems in the future and that's also speculative but it's more practical speculation and so if you notice a lot of these puppy projects are like oh you know like we're gonna build the super smart contracts on this and that and like it's all this stuff that the people are saying this is what the future of the world is going to run on and they're also right to do that so what is dash done wrong and by dash i also mean bitcoin cash bitcoin sv although they've got their own other list of problems and stuff like getting 51 percent attacked into oblivion ecash although ecash is pumping quite a bit right now probably because they did the redenomination and a lot of investors like cheap coin i can buy and go moon on but whatever uh what are all these things and i'll throw it in monero too what about z cash because those are payment privacy oriented but payment coins what about firo what about you know i guess nano or whatever you know what like there's so many payment based coins what about litecoin i mean litecoin does its little moon thing here and there but it's still not like what are all these things doing wrong and the answer to that is it's kind of twofold is first off there isn't enough market scarcity for what they're offering like anyone can with their bank account buy anything they want kind of and it doesn't really cost them anything it just you don't gain anything with krypto now what they will gain is oh what happens when fiat starts to go down in value you just don't want to hold any even for purchases then people are going to want to buy in crypto and then they're going to want to have it or what happens when people start censoring your payments oh you don't have a our records indicate that you have not received your third booster shot of the vaccine you are not allowed to make this purchase like okay now you care about crypto you see like the world has to get worse before we get to that spot so that's it's ahead of its time is what i'm saying that's part of it and then the other part is it doesn't work like as i mentioned about the whole dash direct uh example like you can buy bitcoin and you know what it does it goes up it works the product works right now i mean i don't know how long it's going to go up i don't know whatever else but you buy the thing you go to your account hit buy you send fee out there and you get this thing and it goes up and you can turn it into more fiat and buy more of the stuff you like in life like it works the product works now what about like i mean i'm not gonna just just to switch it off of dash for a second what about bitcoin cash does it work today i mean you could say yeah but like why don't merchants take it oh some do sure okay why like what's the compelling reason people well i buy it and then i use it in a more complicated cumbersome way than my other money and i pay for the privilege of doing that except maybe it'll go up in value during that time so why don't i just buy the one that goes out more in value and then you see how it's like the the end user product is not complete and sorry so same thing with dash right dash when it had its unchecked like it's optional instant send feature was definitely like just why get out of here like come on but now that it's instant it's like okay well no service recognizes that now so still garbage no one cares okay but then you get bit refill to accept it obviously dash direct does it you get like a dozen or so exchanges that have like either reduced or no confirmation times to deposit now you start now it starts to matter okay but it's like well what oh dash what do i do with dash like if someone asked me like oh i'm in uzbekistan or no that's a little too esoteric i'm in austria where do i spend my dash the answer question it's a complicated answer because like where do i okay let me go on bit refill see what okay there's these mobile top up things for like you know the austrian phone providers look you can do that there's a couple of these places you like it just it's not like i can just go and spend well i do know that salamantex shout out to sound element x has a whole bunch of like handheld pos devices in you know central europe and especially austria and if you go to solomantex's website they do have a directory of businesses that accept it you should be able to pay dash at those merchants so if you're in austria that's a good but that's just i happen to the only reason i even know selimantex had a directory is i happen to accidentally check like a week ago literally okay and like but no one like how how is this useful to the average person how's the average person get i'm gonna buy dash and use it in like you know austria how do they know where to even spend it and then okay the wallet works but then is the business trained do they care enough to put like a sticker a promotion it like why do they care enough and so what we the good thing about you know as i mentioned dash direct solves a lot of these things but the basic thing is we need end user products that work why would you use dash for this okay you get a discount why would the business offer a discount if they have to add separate infrastructure except payments and stuff maybe they have banking problems and stuff how do you or but the biggest reason is crypto is a craze as it's moving over businesses have an incentive to get more customers and if they say hey i take bitcoin hey i take nano i take dash whatever then they'll get more customers but there has to be an accurate compendium of places to spend it and there just isn't any because how do you keep track of a decentralized network i mean dash direct can keep their merchant network updated and stuff like salman techs can like i'm sorry we got a little carried away there needs to be a way for to aggregate accurate data as to where you can actually spend this and give merchants an actual reason to offer discounts which gives people a reason to actually spend it and you have to make sure the payment process is smooth as butter in a lot of places in new hampshire it's pretty smooth it's like 80 to 90 percent what like other payments might be because we have people that do it all the time and just yesterday i reported a wallet glitch from a certain kind of invoice that because just no one else uses this stuff enough to be reporting these issues and it's smoothing but basically those are the two big things is okay as to answer the market cap question is first off the digital cash use case its time has not come yet and second it's not ready their end user products just aren't there yet so those are the two big reasons that i'll agree on the on the first one for sure but the second one i feel like the user experience okay you might not always get a discount and for businesses is hard but it does work as intended like if you can send dash or bitcoin cash now for but you know it doesn't it doesn't mean that it there's you mentioned like oh you know just that bc will you know it uses because you just buy and the price goes up and i guess it depends what the use case is and i think uh in another video that naomi did she was mentioning how all these different cryptocurrencies have different use case or are built for different reasons basically and there's things you can you just can't do with dash that you can't do with ethereum right but in the other on it goes both ways right so it's each cryptocurrency has a different setup a different community a different culture or different like social contract governance like everything and these things are still at play and um and we'll see your i think this is also some from the same video we're mentioning earlier but we don't know if the current the cryptocurrency of the future that will be used for payment even exists right now right so we're just still we're still kind of add a little nuance to that point number two uh there's a big difference between the source the underlying network and the end user experience the infrastructure around that so finally with something like dash and to a lesser extent but still things like i wouldn't i would have said nano but nano kind of got broken a while back i don't know if it's working but like the bitcoin cash the bitcoin sv kind even the litecoin-ish like not as much but like the underlying payment rails work yeah that's not in question it's just yeah the end user experience is still underdeveloped for example no major point of sale system in the us that i know of has any easy crypto accounting system that just plugs right into where you just hit a different button everywhere now has to like open up a completely separate app any page take it go back in and record it as an other transaction type or whatever to do yeah so that's not set up like the wallets don't like there's no real good username wallets i mean bsv has the best one hand cash and it's just like it's still kind of centralized right the way that runs yeah it's kyc now pen cash is kyc'd yeah that sucks well i know so because they had such a good i agree with you that's such a good product and they kind of like killed it yeah it's okay and then like the dash decentralized version is taking freaking forever you know it's it's it's out on test net it's worth i can send you an invite to your little username you can send fake money back and forth right now but that's the fake money why not why is it i feel like wallets are like so important for any project while yes the wallet the wallet has been done for like a year it's okay underlying dash platform which is a big overhaul that allows like data contracts and decentralized data storage and decentralized digital identities a bunch of really awesome stuff okay it's been taking forever to build okay and that unfortunately is the name of the game in crypto i think it's been a little worse in dash and i think that that's a big part of the market cap slide has been uh everyone's like oh this evolution thing is going to come out like i'm speculating on the release and then it just doesn't happen year after year and then it's just like all right i'm gonna dump wait the evolution is not the evolution is not why do i feel like it was out because it got out on test net but it's been taking forever to get to the final stable release and so i'm gonna just shut up about that until like okay until it's out okay like you know it's okay yeah i say it doesn't exist yet don't i like to talk about realities so yeah okay there's there's no good username like the copy and pasting of long addresses and like i was doing a bunch of payments for this project that i run you know i was doing the accounting is going through a spreadsheet like day before yesterday and i was just like address address and i have to like check on the on the hardware wall like this little xyz there's this thing and it's just like what if i could just go use your name username username username username and just make it yeah well we'll get there we'll we'll get there you're right the format address right now is just is kind of a nightmare i'll just pause quickly sorry back and we're back yes we should meet interlude but i should have changed my shirt and just not addressed it oh that would have been fun just been like it's fine not remember what happened just mess with people a little bit just like i every six months i should change what facebook says it's my birthday and see people wish me a happy birthday next like six months no trolling your own friends yeah and then if they like then start changing it quarterly and see if anyone's like wait didn't you just like did you yeah but um yeah i think this was a very like good overview of understanding i think uh the adoption of cryptocurrencies as payment their downfalls as well where these projects might go basically like what we might see and and what's at play where i mean right now i guess like what do you what do you see in the space i think you've mentioned a couple of things like in terms of the culture or what's happening right now i just would like to ask you as someone who's been in this space for a long time where do you see all of this going and i know you use ken bozak as like sort of an indicator for what the where the market is going and stuff like what what is something that people should look forward to you know start reading on like what is something that you think is important that will come around yeah i think that uh there the economic fundamentals behind cryptocurrencies are something that just has not mattered but it's going to matter and beating like oh you know there will only ever be 21 million bitcoin or like you know though the incentives don't work out with this or like some strange things like let me like quickly mention eip 1559 yeah or the ethereum thingy that caused the fee burn and stuff yeah which i i'm conflicted on it because i think it's a good idea and i also don't think it solved the problem it's meant to solve because the things the fees are too high we have to make miners not profit or miners or stakers not profit from fees by burning the fees and then the fees won't be too high but the fees are higher than ever so it clearly didn't work with that what it did work was by making something less like more scarce it has more value and therefore you know pumps the coin it works well like that but just this idea of like like if you're giving people a service you should get paid to do it and that's just a very basic economic principle you know you get rewarded and everyone does this it's a gamification of everything and it whether or not it's like money money or if it's just something else like if you do something good and someone says oh thank you so much that me like and you feel good you will do it more often it just it's literally you know like you see monkey do right you do a thing you get rewarded you do more of it you do a thing you don't really get wrong you do less of but then if you're saying okay you process a bunch of transactions but you don't get any extra money for it like people are not going to make sure that the transactions that's not going to be their top priority right and just these weird economic reasonings where people are like let's not get people paid for the service that they use and then things will work out because those kinds of things or like let's just let infinite money printing to a certain level and it's okay because whatever else that's not going to work either like oh let's just have a entirely block reward based system for hash rate for bitcoin for example and then when that runs out just like but you have to make up for it in fees right and that just a lot a lot of wait don't say that they're not that's they're fine with that well that's the thing though is if the fees if they do make up for it and fees the fees go through the roof and okay but we have lightning lighting still requires on-chain transactions so it might not be a lightning transaction is like 40 to send it might not be that but it might be it's like 20 cents to send a bitcoin payment over lightning for example and like people aren't thinking through stuff like that and or 20 50 cents i don't know whatever but i think the over the long term these kinds of fundamental issues are going to start to present themselves or like scaling things where like a zero fee model is never gonna be sustainable i don't think or rather it will become sustainable by introducing a fee somewhere else to compensate for it so for example let's say nano oh no fees yeah that's not going to work until the people who are processing all these transactions for people will start charging a fee to broadcast your download there's no fee the wallets are going to charge fees for example um i think that's going to be you know powerful the big the name the digital cash thing is going to be i feel like all at once like no one's going to be spending this stuff then everyone's going to be spending stuff over the course of like a year or so like it's going to be very quick because the world is moving into crypto and it just at some point people are just going to start spending it and at some point every little thing is going to lock into place and it'll just like oh yeah just start spending your stuff but the big parts in the d5 and daos are full of hype but with good reason when you move a lot of like the old financial system into a decentralized way it's not just the underlying money it's the like the banks you basically make banks brokers uh clearing houses like all these kinds of things you know lenders all this kind of stuff you make them work in a decentralized way where anyone can participate and lend liquidity to these things and make it work that's massive that's going to be the financial revolution we're expecting and that and then decentralized governance is the other thing dao's and it used to be always sometimes you could have down now everyone needs to have a dao even if you don't run a cryptocurrency project your company should be a dao and there's kind of a i'm kind of i again i don't i have to actually research i've been too busy doing it to care who else is doing it but there's this thing i'm running right now as of like a couple days ago depends on when this thing was published but called the dash marketing hub which is offshoot of this thing called dash incubator basically andy freyr who was the architect behind dash like the right-hand man of the founder for a long time uh he left the official core team so he could focus on side projects and this is one of them where it's basically like a bounty based developer incentive fund but the way he went about it was and right now there isn't really a like a decentralized app or infrastructure behind running it but it's like the principle it gets mostly done on like trello boards and like public google docs sheets and stuff but basically it's a system where every single action is public like any time someone does some work that's public anytime someone gets paid for that that's public anytime someone does any little bit where every bit of work is incentivized like for example if you come up with an idea we should build a decentralized twitter based on dash the guy who came up with that idea gets paid for coming up with the idea and that's public and then the person who writes the specifications for everything it needs to include also gets paid and that's public and then every developer does like commits on that it's all public you can look up a big spreadsheet that has like this the the blockchain addresses for everything so you can verify that every single payment got made and anyone can just propose an idea get paid do the work and it's all super public and transparent and that's a radically different system than anything else that's been done you know in the way humans do things i don't know again if other projects like oh we have that system built into our dao where you know the dao is that that was kind of like that but then you pay a team like i have a good idea i want to run the marketing department for dash pay me money and i go to the dow that's all transparent but then what i do with that how i manage my team is kind of black box still right but like what if a company like i'm sure everyone's been part of a group where they're like oh people don't know that she does all the work this this guy takes all the credit like what if that's just impossible like what if everyone sees how much work which pieces of work every person did and everyone gets paid according to that or like oh this person's dead weight on the team they're not doing enough work well but they're not getting paid for it because they didn't do it so you don't care if they're dead awake because the person who's working a lot gets paid like it it's just going to be a huge revolution so basically i'm running a i guess marketing promotion based fork of this incubator concept and it's again all super public you can verify every single payment that's been made every single bit of work every single thing like that and yeah it's just anyone can just join anyone can participate and that's going to be the next level when that starts getting baked into dow systems where you have the whole you know stakeholder governance goes in like funds this project but then that project is in its own kind of decentralized open source-ish self-running way that's from what i've seen as well with dao's is that it is a little bit more incorporated but then what happens is that you also have like a reputation pondering system where you see like oh joel has been very active and he fulfills everything that he said he was going to do so oh he's not only active but reliable and efficient and you know stuff like that and then depending on which dial you're in those things those metrics can also appear and then you might have a bigger weight in the dow in the future for being that that type of actor but yeah and that that's obviously ultimately based on information in the past it's been like oh it's like a popularity contest like we like this guy or we don't like this guy or it's just like well like again the kate the the curious case of george donnelly right someone like that you know your old buddy there i guess my old buddy um did he work for dash and he did an awful job no offense right uh like literally the title of his proposal was this many transactions per day and his own tracker had him at a very small fraction of that and even then that was because you know he took money and paid people to buy them their lunch in order to account for the transactions or whatever but that's that's water under the bridge whatever the reputation system like everyone figured it out and dash and kicked him out but then he went to bitcoin cash and then he kind of got a new lease on life oh yeah i got all this stuff and he started like the information he's just an example but i'm not using this to dump on donnelly as much as i like to do that but it's like a the information did not transfer there's no record or like look at all the work i'm doing and there's just a lot of fuzziness and that's one thing that i seek to start to change in not just crypto world but the way the world works is just it's radical transparency radical transparency and also i've been wary and that's just me but i've been wary of calling out people because you and i have you know work with different people actors companies and and you know there's one rule never burn bridges and at the same time there's some bridges that should be burnt down and some bridges that should be built and bridges um you know that are very crooked and stuff like that and and it's it's difficult it's that radical honesty i guess that um and transparency that i'm definitely not ready to open the skeletons of the cryptoskeletons of working with with certain actors because um but that's a thing yeah it's scary it's scary as well well it's not just yeah but that's what i'm saying is you have to like it's like an undertaking you have to it's like a this is opaque it's hidden yeah i want to bring this to light i have these risks what are people going to say about me is it going to help you have all these calculations yeah what if the choice you just made for you in that you don't have to make the choice and it's not on you it's just out there and you don't have to be a murderer for this what if it just was out there and there's no argument it's just out there you don't say like well yeah look at that at like you don't have to be that person you just don't have to say anything everyone just sees it and yeah problem solved like that's the world i hope to to move towards crypto is these three fantastic things first off it's a open repository of information financial information is still just information right is it's an open repository of information anyone can look at it's an open participation system that anyone can participate in using the system anyone can you know download walls start using this anyone can just do anything and at its core it should be an open participation thing and anyone can participate in running it and building it and those are like the three big things that make this crypto revolution actually a revolution so with those three big things there's imperfections in those guiding principles but what we can do is find each of those things and find where is it not transparent you know where can you not just have anyone use it and where can you have not everyone just be able to participate or where do you satisfy those three principles but it the end result doesn't work out but you need to make it figure out how to make it work out like if you advance those three and i think you're in a good spot and so i'll for one thing producing work that anyone can use like whether it's decentralized applications for the incubator or whether it's like you know marketing content or videos or whatever for the marketing hub or literally whatever some people want to do like a uh what do they call it a street art type thing like a guerrilla marketing thing and like put stickers on lampposts and stuff and stuff we'll see if that ends up getting funded but yeah but basically stuff that anyone can use in that way and you you know anyone can anyone can see the results of it anyone can benefit from it like there's just videos of people using this stuff all over now that it got funded i'm going to take those and make compilation videos for like this or i'm going to use this in my like a news site and then the final thing is or anyone can participate anyone can just join the thing say hey add me to the board hey i want i have this idea i want to do this or like oh i see you're looking for someone to make a video of someone using dash direct in hawaii i don't know a lot of people live in hawaii but i do i want to make that video and then boom anyone participates i'm basically trying to just advance the space in those ways and we all should probably be so i like those three aspects that you just mentioned and i'll add another three aspects that people have to keep in mind when they're looking at projects reviewing things and i think everybody knows about it already but it's i tell i i remind people of the blockchain trilemma right between decentralization scarcity and scalability and how these projects all of these projects that we've mentioned today are somewhere on that triangle of trying to be as decentralized as scalable and as secure as possible while also remaining you know open and permissionless and enabling basically the the financial future of tomorrow but there's there's i think everybody has a different um reading on what these blockchains should be how they should scale what is what is even the word decentralization you know how do you measure that um but that's for another debate but i would maybe you have something to add but i would like to invite you to the show and tell segment of this show would you like to share something with us that is important to you and that we can remember you by yeah sure i got a couple things okay first off is this thing oh my god yes so the story behind this is um so you know i grew up doing mostly like politics and stuff like that and it was successful in school uh always kind of a nerd not really an athlete or anything like that and i got really into martial arts when i watched some jackie chan movies i want to do that so i started doing taekwondo and my family supported it but it just no one cared that was just it was never like oh yeah you should do this it was it was purely me and that's what like the important thing is it wasn't like what people set up for me this is something i made for myself is that for years and years i just went and trained with five days a week or whatever and just slowly you know i got my taekwondo black belt i got up to third degree and then finally i ended up getting my full-on instructor certification which is kind of like almost like a half a university degree in just how to like run like a school and instruct and stuff because it's a it's a skill right and so as part of that for my uh instructor graduation ceremony i was given this and so this is kind of my sign of of sensateness yes and for several years um i probably like eight or ten years i was like a martial art instructor and when i moved to new hampshire was my first it was my only job there like it was what got me to be able to move out here because i couldn't find a job in the other areas that i did and so it's not like oh school like you're in a track like this is what you're it's like what your family and your society invests in you is like school so that then whatever you do with that education whatever jobs you get is it's it's kind of like oh you it's kind of like you borrowed that from someone else but this is something i built all by myself it was just hard long work and stuff like that and you know obviously something i'm you know very proud of because of that um because everything that we do in life but specifically me like this the plan for my life didn't work out very well to be honest and what i did instead worked out so much better and it's so much harder because i didn't really have help in it i mean obviously there's lots of people who instructed me and helped me along the way kind of thing but it's not like oh it was kind of like you're you're luxury you're side high though you want to take up knitting okay like what if your entire no offense to people who knew that's that's fantastic but what if you just like did some knitting in the evenings and that just became your life that became your source of like friends reputation income everything it's just like that something comes from you and so also which has been all over social media well not all over but i recently got my jiu jitsu blue belt and this is interesting for this is important to me for a few different reasons first off uh very different from taekwondo i was already an expert and it's scary to go from an expert to a beginner again where you know nothing especially in a way where one of the more scary things that i think a lot of people have in life is like one of the worst situations one can imagine especially for women i'm sure but you know guys feel it too is being trapped underneath someone like you're on the floor someone's sitting on your chest you can't get them off like that's especially if they're bigger than you that's like terrifying for a lot of people and so i thought you know well we could knock his head off if it's like from a few feet away but what happens if i end up like like you're helpless and scary and so i'm like well why don't i do that on purpose why don't i face my fears in the biggest way i can and also be this like oh yeah you're that like black people dude but you're about to get your ass repeatedly kicked over and over by people like you know that's a humbling experience too to embrace and you know to start over from zero and so i'm proud of myself for all that but also this has not touched fiat one bit i went i found a you know a school that was recommended and of course it's like okay hi i'm this like expert but i want to like like i want to do this stuff and expose myself to sucking in the worst way possible while like a 250-pound man is sitting on my chest trying to like break my neck or whatever like that's terrifying enough but then i also oh and i won't even be able to join your school until you take crypto he's like that's just that's so anxiety inducing and i'm not a very social person like i'm i can talk amongst friends and stuff but like i'm not mr like gregarious hi i was good to meet you like i'm not that dude it's always a bunch of fear overcame to be able to do this and then since then you know all my stuff that i paid for with this from the gas to get there to the the uniforms to the classes has all been in crypto and in that the recent naomi video she did she actually went to the school and like filmed some of that stuff right there so you can see it right there but that's i mean if a lot of people i don't know for me it was a lot of things i overcame to reach this point and i think a lot of people can kind of imagine something similar of you know the countless hours of you know just knowing what you're in for you're in for big big sweaty dudes sitting on your chest you can't do anything twisting at your arms hoping to break one until you like literally say i give up stop you like sign up for that especially as you're actually like a fighting expert in something else and then just like the i would say the ego blow but i i try to not have an ego about that to begin with but then also just like hi do you want to like take this magic internet money because i won't do it if you don't do it like that social anxiety that comes from that like all that together is a big hump to get over and so it's just kind of a you know it's kind of a something that i am you know personally proud of and as i said before nothing in my life worked out the way it was supposed to and i'm not where i'm at because i'm like this you know what else i want to be a badass and do this cool thing that thing thing it's kind of like a lot of ways i turned out to be a loser and the everything that's good about my life is in spite of that is like well that didn't work out so i did something that did work out and i made it work out even though it didn't in the beginning so that's kind of what this is both of those things are culmination of you know all of that thank you for sharing and i think this can inspire many many others that and these really in certain weird times can find inspiration and in your life and your failures and your successes and yeah and that we can that you can be here today really not only sharing your experiences of course and in the light that you wish to be portrayed in uh but we can also now see these these tokens of your efforts um so thank you so much for well for sharing that platform and everyone has the capacity in them for something like that like you know i'm kind of like a nobody so to make the somebody from a nobody is should be inspirational in that like anyone can just people don't see themselves as these things oh yeah that's that guy who like people just assume whatever i am today i've always been that guy you know but like i've been none of this for almost my entire life and the only reason it just wasn't like hey you know what you grow you move on it's like no this was intentional a lot of hard work a lot of fear a lot of you know failure a lot of like terror a lot of like you know i hate myself in a punch in the wall kind of nights kind of thing there's just a lot of that that true growth goes into and like think about the the story of crypto right of like the anonymous founder who just knows that he's in for a world of hurt if people know who he is and just creating this random thing all the people that are like i'm gonna like buy a couple pizzas with this stuff and like like the balls it took to like talk to that guy and just say hey do you want to like make this random nonsense it's like well it's only two pizzas and then each step of that and then just like the failures of like the scaling wars and just like regulation and then just all the scams come just all the all the the weight and the headaches and just that was a literal face palm that was like one of those there's a literal face palm but like all this stuff and anyone can still come in and create something beautiful and anyone could still be the you know you can just not even know how to write a single line of code yet end up being developing and launching the most successful blockchain project of them all within five to ten years if you really want to be that person so do you want to be that person go do it an open call for anyone listening to this and who needed that extra kick today to feel like they could be and become anything brought to you i'm not going to kick here and knock it brought to you by joel no but it's it's interesting do you think like this mentality this sort of it is a fighter as well mentality of overcoming and battling yourself and achieving do you think that philosophy also came a lot from your martial arts background yes definitely i mean martial arts i mean taekwondo specifically is more regimented it's more it's born as a military art for the south korean military so it's a little bit more you know it's more like this the tools of strength and discipline and things like that and um there was also like a prescribed path for you know i got instructor certification i was teaching this certified school there i was doing that's that's a lot more of like the the kind of discipline and hard work part of things and the thing about like jiu jitsu is first off like there's no set of techniques per rank like there's no like there's no safety in things like well i learned this much and now i'm like only competing it's like your first day you could have someone like an absolute killer who's been doing this for decades just you could just like go up against him and like okay and there's no excuses it's like oh well that guy was bigger than me it's like sorry he still made you tap sorry like it's just the brutal and you know it's a lot of fun too and if you're in a positive training environment you know people will be nice to you and do stuff with your level i always try to make sure to do the same i don't want to crush people who are not as good or smaller than me or whatever you know i try to learn but respect your opponent it's the ultimate basically the only rules are don't punch don't hit the guy don't like bite or gouge his eyes out and anything else goes like it's literally do anything it's a free market environment the free market of violence kind of you know it's so that's free market nice one yes the free market of the free market is the same kind of thunder dome mentality of like no one cares no one cares how hard you worked who you are where you came from you know just no one cares about anything you gotta produce and so that's what i was talking about with the no one cares if you're the best digital cash in the world if you can't get a product that people just want to use it's like sorry no one cares go away buy lose all your money like another question that you asked that was not answered p.s oh in that other video oh okay yeah like don't you remember that was one of your last that was one of your last questions you're like yeah but what if like you're building this great thing by the end no one cares and then the answer was like well bch didn't do better and uh anyways history blah blah and then it was like a historical tension but it wasn't answering but what if no one cares like no one cares what you're building in the end well the answer is always it'll fail and things fail all the time and the thing is a lot of people don't have to come face to face with this thing ever like what if bitcoin fails do you think tone vase ever was like like what if this is all for nothing maybe maybe not he just probably saw oh enough people get enough hard work not dumping i don't think he cares like pomp i mean your favorite other twitter but like it's not even a hater thing like do you think he risks that much by just being like a permabull on this stuff i mean he's he's talking all this smell i put 95 percent of my whole portfolio in bitcoin and it was like oh you did oh wow tell me more it's like yeah the bank whatever but at least it's like i mean there is some risk in that but it's like if it all fails you just jump to the next coin or whatever um everything has the capacity to fail and that's the thing that um it's funny this is another funny thing um there's this guy called chael sonnen it's an interesting shout out because he was a like a top level ufc fighter ended up being an espn commentator and has his own podcast and stuff it's not joe broken no sorry no but he's been on jonathan half dozen times so he's like he's kind of the original conor mcgregor as it were like the trash talker big super star guy okay he oddly enough has been on my podcast at least once and i've been on his because he went to the dash treasurer for money back in like the 2017 era and like i have this odd connection i haven't really spoken with him in like a year or so but like at this odd connection with this like celebrity type person but anyway he gave like a motivational speech to some of his fighters he was training on this one thing where essentially he was talking about he says they say that failure is not an option he says that's a load of crap failure is always an option you always have that option right there of uh you know just because the other guy was stronger and better i just like how he got the best of me you can always just fail you can anything you can do it's always an option but then success is always an option too and it's hard to choose success but you can choose it and so that's the thing with the crypto space i would think oh yeah but you know i mean you know like this pulse chain is going to this or solana that or you know cardano oh my gosh i'm an auto maximalist oh like failure is always an option i mean there's a graveyard of crypto projects already they're just just done just dead and people just think that like yeah you know my bitcoin cash is going to be digits just like the white paper it's going to be there forever for me maybe but failure is an option that's the thing is yeah it could also it's a good it's a good reminder it's a good reminder and i think we're still in an extremely irrational market right and certain things that but what i mean by rational markets i think eventually you're right the market is is right and the market will clean itself basically like it will it will happen it's just it's all a matter of perspective and timeline and how long things take but i guess in your position we we are in mine as well sometimes we just see certain things and it's a reminder of a past mistake of a certain project or reminds us and we can sort of benchmark things and we we can develop a critical mindset to this industry and we can start benchmarking things so against each other because but but we're not right either or you know we don't have to be right all the time and that's not our role but just to bring back and elevate the conversation towards what we should aim for or the greater something i don't know i i guess that's what i'm trying to do when i'm teaching people you know it's like i don't try to tell people what to do or or what to do with their crypto but just like learn just start by just learning just just get get cracking just it's never too late it's it's okay and we've we've all been newbies and beginners at some point and you just have to yeah embrace it that would be my my advice to people like myself or yeah i would tell myself is that failure is always an option is that you know you could just say but i'm i'm right i'm i have all the principles right i use the project that's like a good one i'm doing it all right it's just going to be over time it's going to work out it's not guaranteed you have to make it work and it might just be a completely different project it might be whatever else but what i would also say to beginners and people outside of this is success is an option is the only thing separating me from who i could have been is the choices i made and same for everyone else like you could just be coasting through life or you could just say i'm going to start buying some crypto now and i'm going to start learning how to spend it and just make that choice with like those few minutes you just watching youtube videos anyway that night you just do that instead oh yeah i'm sorry i'm not going out drinking this week because i blew all my drinking money on crypto or whatever and then you know you lose it all in a hack and you cry but you know you start again you get more and you just oh i want to be a crypto educator i think this would be great if like i could just spend my time talking about this crypto because i love it so much and then you're like okay well who's hiring hope no one's gonna hire me okay well what do i do from here okay well why don't i just start learning myself while when i just say hey i'm gonna go to run some meetups or something i'm gonna go start a youtube channel i'm gonna see what i can do and before you know it you're on top of the world and then there's people like naomi brockwell saying you're so influential in this spice and like you know and then you're like oh yeah i'm a nobody well you were but then you made a bunch of choices and then you're where you are today so that's just kind of what i would say to the both sides of things troll thank you for coming i really i really appreciate our our remote uh connection uh the values that we share thank you for sharing your your story today i i really appreciate and i hope that anyone that's listening who stayed with us this whole time i'm not sure who's going to listen to us uh or this through the whole um episode but i hope that anyone who's out there listening just appreciated what we just had today and that you were able to sort of join in with us joel has a wonderful platform i'll make sure to leave all the links below for him for you to be able to go and follow him support him check in his next shows yeah thank you do you have a do you i don't know do you want to say any less any last words i i'll be cutting off very much for all that and this is definitely my favorite show to be on so far so you're number one again failure is always an option someone could knock you down to number two but i just don't see that happening soon so thank you very much for for all that and i think that you do a great service and that's just like oh i love your shows okay anyone could say that but i think you'd do a great service for the space by making it you know kind of human and real again and crypto is not that real to it's just so much fake so much like these are the top five altcoin pumps for this like just a bunch of nonsense for the lot and then there's people you know like naomi and like scott cunningham who are just real about things and i try to be real but like the human aspect you know humans of crypto you know you might think it sounds like dumb like like what do you mean of course it's humans like it was a robot's a crypto get the out of here like no it's not but it's it's super underrated in the importance of that that there's a lot of people in this space and ultimately technology is a tool for people and basically like comment share subscribe humans of crypto donate versus via cointree i believe you have all the links down below share this stuff and just make random tweets about like the best pro podcasts in the space or xyz and even crypto and you really like just you know do your part to get that out there because i don't think people are going to be like oh really and then they listen to a thing you're like nah never mind i'm going to go back to bitboy or whatever else no no shade bit boy but i'm just saying i do think that people i do think that just like peer-to-peer digital cash this is something that is very valuable whose time maybe hasn't come yet but it's like it's out there it's a hidden treasure so find that hidden treasure guys share it i think i'm gonna disclose it now thank you everybody for listening and watching appreciate all your support until next time for episode six [Music] you