# PANEL: Emerging Technology and Social Progress (Devcon5)

- Channel: [Devcon](https://streameth.org/devcon)
- Date: 2020-10-09
- Duration: 39:19
- Topics: blockchain, smart contracts, distributed ledger, ethereum
- Watch: https://streameth.org/watch/yt-nnXfEr6KJEI
- YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnXfEr6KJEI

## Description

Visit the https://archive.devcon.org/ to gain access to the entire library of Devcon talks with the ease of filtering, playlists, personalized suggestions, decentralized access on IPFS and more.
https://archive.devcon.org/archive/watch/5/panel-emerging-technology-and-social-progress

Natalie Cargill, Will Ruddick, Adam Bornstein & Lucas Geiger discuss Emerging Technology & Social Progress.

Speaker(s): Natalie Cargill, Will Ruddick, Adam Bornstein, Lucas Geiger
Skill level: Beginner
Track: Society and Systems
Keywords: humanitarian, global finance, finance initiatives, philanthropy, technical

Follow us: https://twitter.com/efdevcon, https://twitter.com/ethereum
Learn more about devcon: https://www.devcon.org/
Learn more about ethereum: https://ethereum.org/ 

Devcon is the Ethereum conference for developers, researchers, thinkers, and makers. 
Devcon 5 was held in Osaka, Japan on Oct 8 - 11, 2019.
Devcon is organized and presented by the Ethereum Foundation, with the support of our sponsors. To find out more, please visit https://ethereum.foundation/

## Transcript

okay can everyone hear me good morning I'm very glad that you will manage to find seats thank you for making it here early so welcome to this morning's panel on emerging technology and social progress so we'll be discussing some key challenges in the humanitarian sector and the global financial system and how innovative finance initiatives can offer solutions to some of these problems I'm Nathalie Cargill I'm the founder and executive director of a nonprofit called effective giving we work with major philanthropists who want to maximize their positive impact on the world we work closely with researchers from the University of Oxford and we are currently advising that Mexico found at vendee low on his philanthropy joining me on the panel today are here we have will Roddick founder and executive director of the grassroots economics foundation grassroots economics is a non-profit foundation that seeks to empower people in the developing world by giving them more financial autonomy the organization develops new currencies for marginalized communities allowing small businesses and local people to trade within the community and build their own economy grassroots economics are currently working on creating a system that lets communities make their own digital currencies and trade with neighboring communities in the middle here we have Lucas Geiger Lucas is the co-founder of Y line and principal at open Libre open Libre is an alternative network to Facebook's Libre prat platform the platform aims to be technically and financially compatible with Libre but will be permissionless censorship resistant and governed by users finally we have adam Bornstein here on the end adam is the global finance and transformation lead at the Danish Red Cross Adams role at the Red Cross is to identify and implement new opportunities to improve the efficiency of traditional humanitarian assistance Adams team identify solutions that focus on technical innovation including blockchain enables community currencies insurance link securities and micro-finance so thank you very much for being here with us this morning so we'll start off by each of the panelists introducing themselves and a little bit about why they've got involved in this type of work I'll then divide the rest of the panel into three broad sections so firstly we'll focus on what problem are each of you trying to solve and I'll push you during that section to be as specific as possible about exactly what it is you're hoping to tackle with your work we'll then move on to how each of the projects that you work on aims to achieve that goal both in terms of why did you choose this approach over other potential approaches what challenges do you expect your face and do you expect to overcome them and it will be interesting also to talk about what success looks like if we if and when we get there and then for the final section of the panel we'll be looking ahead to take a a broader look at where we see this sector going over the coming years and how individuals can be involved so um well would you like to start us off with a brief introduction Thanks so I was a physicist about 20 years ago working at Stanford and I started doing agent-based modeling and there's a thing called econo physics and there was this theoretical model where if you could start tweaking who gets to issue money and what are the rules on that money you could drastically change these these models in theory and it turned out as I found out there was a movement about creating local currencies going back almost 50 years and there were examples of these all around the world so I got really passionate I left a physics went into economics and started studying this stuff and that led me to eventually coming to Kenya and starting to work with community groups to get them to come up with their own rules and I started with pieces of paper they started really taking off in Kenya these little voucher systems and eventually the central bank put us all in jail and we ended up fighting that in court and since then we've been just steadily pushing on and just this last year now we've gone into you the blockchain and that has really started to give us some ability to scale Thank You Lucas yes sir I've been working in technology probably for 15 years as an entrepreneur my recently I was part of key scores which was the data analytics startup that we did analytics with iOS Google Play and Amazon Appstore so we had familiarity with a lot of FinTech technology and after I exited that company I started working with a lot of experiments on the etherium because that would really blew my mind into how you know we could actually have a neutral arbiter of agreements and that could be a real powerful tool for us to create a different financial and after system so I think I'm preaching to the choir here for this audience and then through some of those experiments we start talking about what really a privacy-preserving application and censorship resistant set of applications would look like and so I started wireline with my co-founder rich burden we've got a wonderful demo here in the last couple days ago check that out but in the process of wireline I was working on the economic design at the wireline Network and we really intrigued by stable coins and and what that actually means for censorship resistance and permissionless systems and who might benefit from these and as we started hearing about Libre just in the background the rumors we heard that that design started to make a lot of sense to me or especially for developing nations so I grew up in in Brazil where you know the US dollar is a type of investment you know people considering the newspaper it's in the investment section so it's a very important store of value for for a certain you know it's the sectors of community that can afford it and so the idea of this currency fund was as Facebook Libre is being designed it's basket of currencies currency fund with instant redemptions that can be transferred to people as if it was cash is a quite a compelling idea but as we started hearing more about Facebook and how they're planning to launch then sort of the crypto dystopia started to become clear where this is going to be a cartel of the largest corporations in the world running a effectively a bank that's too big to fail and there won't be a government that can bail it out in the extreme case so what does that actually mean for the people that libres intended to serve for the developing for people in developing nations and so we got a group of people from from crypto together some of my friends and thought leaders in the space sort of think about what would be a strategy that we could either steer Facebook in the right direction as unlikely as that sounds or create an alternative platform this perfect compatible a stable coin that would be compatible in the event of facebook launching their coin or one that has the same properties and same guarantees and so we've announced this week a project it really is a meeting ground for people who have concerns about about Libra to try and influence the the governance and the direction of this ecosystem and so we call that hope in Libra thank you very much good morning my name is Adam Bernstein and I worked for the Danish Red Cross I work on an innovative financing but as well as looking at transformation how I got to the Red Cross was through venture capital about 20 years in Asia also I was an equity in us for a little while and I've worked at the World Bank u.s. ID and a few other organizations and my colleagues and I within the Red Cross we looked to support the Red Cross as it as it matures and migrates and moves and develops into like a new paradigm a new world where organizations need to be more proactive as opposed to reactive so it might surprise you that the Red Cross is not only a non-profit but it's also a for-profit and it's a quasi government entity and what's really interesting about that is that the Red Cross in various societies she's around the world 191 national societies around the world we have 1 million almost 1 million full-time staff and 14 million volunteers is by far the world's largest organization under an umbrella for example the UN's around 44,000 in our annual budget surrounding 25 billion dollars and so if you can imagine having an organization which is more dynamic and engaging and still follows our principles which is neutrality impartiality neutrality that's that's a really powerful powerful platform so we can we can uplift more than we do even today and especially as things get more more localized and we try to give agency to vulnerable communities on the ground and so my role or my team's role and my colleagues we look to do a few things one is risk transfer transfer risk to private sector capital markets but also we look to become more effective and efficient and so I have a really unique pleasure of being able to work both with Lucas on the the open Libre as well as with will on community currencies and it will be talking more about that thank you very much okay so we'll now kick off with the discussion session of section of this panel if any of you have questions please feel free to come up to this microphone here and would be very happy to take them so kicking off just to get a clearer sense of the problem each of you are trying to solve well I suppose an outsider could say well poverty is a very complex problem but fundamentally perhaps what people in poor countries need is more money and we can do that as an individual through organizations such as give directly we can send more money to people in the poorest places on earth we can also do it through things like lobbying for policy and form etc etc why is it that the world's poorest people need new currencies or new tokens rather than just access to more resources why this approach right well if you had one dollar and you can move that dollar at the speed of light that's all you would need right I mean we in rural areas in very poor ears there's lots of goods and services actually on offer and you get these stagnant markets constantly where the current system is just not reaching them it's not diffusing enough and and there's certain mechanics around the money supply that just even if you do dump money on communities it ends up within a month outside that community forever it doesn't stay and circulate and so engineering economies and engineering tokens and and money in a way that causes that money to sink into communities and also gives the communities to leverage their own assets and their own goods and services so I mean that the general problem here can be phrased that the U n phrases it well they say well look we need two point five or two point six trillion dollars to to fill the gap for sustainable development funding and that's for all sorts of stuff like food security for instance and there's no source of that money anywhere and and if they were to pull 2.5 trillion from typical banking interest then we would just be creating that much debt in the world and to pay off that debt we'd be in an in another situation of just compounded interest and so this idea that communities are the source they can be the source of their own credit they can have social backing and social collateral and feel that credit gap they can fill the SDG gap as well as this gap of you know the World Bank would also say it's about two point six trillion dollars and credit that's missing in the world right now are there any projects that you think that are already operating that come somewhere close to to this kind of system that you're talking about which success stories would you hope to emulate so right now we're working with about 6,000 small-scale businesses and farmers across Kenya we've got 12 different tokens that those communities have created and they've backed it with their own social capacity and right now they're doing about you know a hundred and twenty thousand dollars of transactions just in the last five months about seventy thousand transactions they're using the blockchain using feature phones with no internet so we use a server sitting there at the telecom and so the the blockchain is solving this problem of saying well can people can groups create their own endogenous their own local money sources can they connect them together create relative prices among them and also back it up with collateral and so the there's some next steps here for us and that is allowing communities to actually now take those those community currencies you know imagine we create 2.5 trillion dollars of community currency well what you know we if we have a social peg to those and they're all connected with each other that's one thing but to have actual collateral in the sense of connecting it to financial markets is sort of the next stage and that's you know what's really exciting to be here with with adam and lucas because in order to make those solutions really viable there has to be some sort of common reserve some sort of common way for communities to establish relative pricing with each other and in create that credit supply thank you and lucas sort of similar question from outsider fee could be okay so there are lots of problems with libra they're pretty easy to imagine but a person could say well if you don't like it don't use it you won't have to use it there are existing fiat currencies you can use there are also existing crypto currencies you can use why start this extremely ambitious project that in many senses you could say the bases have been covered elsewhere it's a really good question i think the there's a misunderstanding that if you know the colibri launches it'll be sufficient for you not to use libra you'll be fine i think there actually is a pretty significant systemic risk that will emerge from libra launching in the way it's designed because if this currency goes out you don't need the currency to go up to the 4 billion people that facebook and the association members can reach you just need them to start considering it as a unit of account so people don't actually have to take possession of the Libra coin but if they see it on their feed and they start using that as a reference coin to something then we start getting basically everybody who sees that feed to consider it an asset and so how do we how do we get that asset and store value to be part of a greater ecosystem not just the the permissioned Facebook Niebuhr chain so the important message there is that many people don't know this about facebook's design but facebook can't guarantee right now and the Liebherr association can't guarantee that non-custodial wallets are going to work a chain meaning the only the only way to hold a Libra point is to have this key an entity custody it for you and that might be subject to seizure or forfeiture for reasons that the Terms of Service of the Association for said that does not give security to the people this is designed for so you look at the libras claims and I tend to agree that this this design of this coin design is quite useful for people in developing nations you're not giving them more security that way and so this is a problem so the open organization you know we're an umbrella project where we're looking at different ways that we can create either a balance of power with with Facebook by expanding the ecosystem and use cases of it but also making sure that there are credible alternatives people want to use a stable coin that's similar either pegged to leave with this in their characteristics or use chains that are similar to an operation and technically to the Libra chain and this is the way that we can possibly do this and right so actually do security to people that are in love gonna be using this coin I'll say one last point because I think this happened this is a conversation happens here in the etherium I my personal view is that I don't think it's enough to hope for government to do something about I think that that's not a strategy the way I see it happening I think Facebook is going to eventually become regulated as a bank and their blockchain is basically just gonna be an automation of the bank I think that would be quite a bad outcome if if that was the only ecosystem that this stable coin was sorry please go ahead with your question yeah it's not so much as a question as a way of posing the problem otherwise it was about you know 2.3 trillion a quantity of money but I'd like to draw your attention to what I think is the fundamental aberration when we think about money is that money is debt that's a historical aberration but that's the truth of it and I think this is what we need to address because we're talking about preserving people's wealth and value and I agree with you that what people we could call the underserved in Financial Inclusion every day they wake up you know they they do food on the streets or whatever they generate wealth but right now they are captive and they are forced to convert that wealth into debt and we cannot think about money in this community which is a topic that we have without grasping the implication of this aberration that for the first time in the history of mankind on such a scale and with such force it has been imposed without consensus that money is no longer an asset but the layer reliability and that has profound economic political and social implications I think that's the point when we're thinking about what blockchain FinTech are about money is freedom for people is the right to own your wealth and your wealth is not debt because a debt is the absence of money is a promise to have money so money is a promise to have money it's irrational it's an aberration and it leads to immorality because once money becomes that the governing force how do you interest people in holding debt by interest but we know that interest works in the interest of the user and it's a tiny elite and the interesting thing when you put the quite the focus the question like this going back to Libre and your point is that there will be another financial crisis the anger of people will be addressed to the banks but the driving force is usury and we are seeing already a shift whereby the banks are no longer the vehicle of that active principle and it is shifting towards the hands of the tech companies Amazon Google face all those guys and to me it's not about pointing out the finger to people but it's that principle it's on an ethical level that is money usually governs money and as such the people who hold money concentrated and financed rather than become a service to industrious people is becoming an industry of itself and it's literally concentrating everything to the point that every sector of activity is actually a cartel and the cartel that rules them all is the cutter that can launder money for the you know the cartels in Mexico and be called HSBC and do so factoring in that they will pay you know 1.2 billion settlement which they probably pushed in their risk assessment on to the cartel and nobody goes to jail and the world keeps on going and so just before will and Lucas answers that let's put this in context that was a great question and I think it's a good lead-in to context which is when you talk about social progress there's social progress in like the first developed world and then there's everybody else right and people that are living in vulnerable communities which you know 80% of a lot of the workers in the world are living in communities where they're earning pretty much nothing at all and actually have no money to start with so in order to actually have that debt and it could be a social debtor it could be a monetary debt they need to have some kind of commodity or some sort of social currency or some monetary currency of exchange and they don't even have that so so I think that you're talking about a first world problem in some ways yeah well okay that that's cool I mean but maybe I'll let will talk in Lukas but I think he had to put in that context of war were thinking I mean it's a good topic because it's so imagine like we're a group of women and we're coming together and we have goods and services we trade were farmers were teachers and we come together and we come in agreement say let's create a credit amongst ourselves there's no we don't have to start it with any debt involved exactly and we all airdrop to each other we all start with let's say a thousand of these these units and we start trading them with each other so sort of like a barter trade if you will well that that essentially does work but there's there's a lot of limitations to it right and so when we say you know there's a lot of these ideas that I you know even the movement that I'm from Missouri round community currencies has this beautiful idea that well money is about trust right like we can we if we trust each other we can create systems to trade or and share with each other and we shouldn't really have limitations like money is like a measurement tool right like so if if your builder says I'm I ran out of centimeters that doesn't make sense you can run out of wood you can run out of inches but you can't run out of centimeters right and so if money is about trust it's about measuring reciprocity in a community well that's that makes sense we can create these money supplies based on trust but now we need systems to trust those trusted parties right so this whole idea of you know mutually suspicious actors coming together and saying well we've created a currency over here we've created one over here how how do they reach consensus what are those protocols that give them the ability to reach consensus and and so that's what's really exciting about blockchain is that well we can pin those down we can write those into a contract we can actually say okay we're gonna create a basic layer that every community across Red Cross you know that across the world like post cash transfer programs for instance and Adam can talk about that but how are all these communities gonna frickin agree with each other on how to create their currencies and and a big piece of that is the idea of reserve is still there there's this still idea of like what collateral arises that what what is that trust based on and so there's you know there in some cases you might call it a kind of a bootstrapping problem but essentially if if the trust is based on this group here and you know this gentleman hears business breaks down and it was the key element holding that trust together things can fall apart quite quickly and so the concept of collateral like all Unchained collateral like Garrett like if I'm holding this piece of paper and we used to print newspaper like a 20 shilling note we would print them ourselves right they would change hands twice a day that one 20 shillings was providing 700 meals a year which is insane to think about people are not eating because they're missing a piece of paper right now like billions of people are not sending their kids to school because they're missing pieces of paper it's it's really a weird thing but if he Britain backs out of that system well what's the risk now so that we need to sort of collateralize that risk somehow and come up with agreement so there's there's a set of protocols that we're working with they're they're based on what are called bonding curves so the the the credit the credit that we create is elastic around something you know it's elastic around Tomatoes in terms of a social credit but it's also elastic around some sort of reserve and as a default right now we're basically using Kenyan shillings we're converting that to die right now as a piece of that collateral red cross is involved in coming in ceding some of that in some of these community can also contribute their own so this is sort of a bootstrapping mechanism now reaching the scale of things like two point five trillion certainly we don't want that in terms of debt but there's got to be some sort of trust and collateral mechanisms to that and so as we start scaling these things up we have to think ahead the you know the next five years how do we create those scales within communities and how do we create the trust and the protocols that connect them to each other thank you I'd like to ask each of you and the same question I guess just before that a note on on trust this seems to be something that all of you are concerned with and again an outsider could say well there's nothing inherently a blockchain does not necessarily create trust you can put lies on the blockchain you can deceive people using a blockchain all of the the problems that the SAP social institutions or groups of people can happen on or off a blockchain that's sort of one of the key problems I think and also there's this tension between separating from traditional financial systems but then having a reserve that's based very much in those systems in Bray is similarly dependent on those systems and that will be one observation I imagine people I'm familiar with this technology would make I'd like to ask each of you and imagine it's two years down the line and you're no longer working on your current projects your current projects failed what were the reasons that you would expect would have been most likely to cause that failure well I'm back in jail that'd be the default answer but I you know so this for me that's the biggest thing it's like well how do we how do we bring along how do we integrate in other words like a part of this movement that I've been part of it has just been about a lot of its in the house has been about isolation and like creating little pocket economies so those aren't welcomed so much you know and especially like we're talking about dealing with refugee crisis right now and you don't want to put those refugees into bubbles you want to integrate them and so the the the work that we've been starting is called community inclusion currencies so we've been really pushing this idea that well to fund refugee movements and things like this we can we can really create inclusive credit supply and money supply that could actually bring communities together so that's my biggest worry is how do we integrate with national governments how do we integrate specifically I mean that's kind of the biggest elephant in the room and there's some there's potential in that in that realm in terms of this concept of the space of reserve the space of trust and government does hold the space of trust if we can put that trust on chain in a way and make them responsible in holding part of those roles and integrate them into you know CDP's or other sort of collateral mechanisms there's there's some movement so you think this would have most likely fail your point would be that governments wouldn't be willing to adopt UC systems I feel like what we're doing is inevitable to some degree but I think they can really slow things down and if we really want to move on things like climate change and produce sustainable funding mechanisms for these things like we need to sort of make things happen right now you know in the next few years and you know like that budget for the the UN like it's not just gonna materialize and if we wait another five years in the five years it's just it's it's kind of like a running joke like oh we need this money to solve climate change but where's the money gonna come from let's but you know like it's you know I just don't think it's ever gonna happen that way so we need to push in a way as fast as we possibly can and that technology we we have you know in this in this room in this community is it's already enough to do this stuff like we're technically able to do all these things right now it's just spreading that information getting organizations like red cross to start saying well let's just stop dumping money on people instead let's let them create their own connect them together and we need systems of reserve that can to those and bring governments on as well Thank You Lucas why would you fail why it didn't work well Facebook give us give us brief and possibly the idea of non-governmental coins generally speaking gets shut down because of the emergence of central bank crypto like is going on in China and developments in Europe and you know speculation the US will do that I think that's generally I think you know probably folks in your and if you really don't like hearing that but I think the greatest the single greatest risk if you're even public blockchains there are you know permissionless censorship resistant are these government Tripp dose and large corporate cryptos because all of the let's say I hate to use the word legitimate but all the kind of upstanding businesses that are afraid of government that want to use these systems that want to use financial automation and you know you know fast settlement medium of exchanges they're gonna go to the large corporate block chains and they're gonna go to the central bank kryptos and that's a really big risk for everybody in the in the industry not just what we're doing so I think that's going to be probably the ultimate saying that that makes a difference maybe I'll say a little bit more about that which is if all these businesses that have fear of government crackdown and are more less legitimate registered businesses go to these platforms it means we're only how it gonna have renegade to use cases on chains and then it makes it makes much easier to go after those I worry about relevancy I'm the Red Cross obviously is a huge organization but when we think about cash transfer and so the Red Cross and the UN together account for almost five billion dollars in cash transfer annually and this is basically us handing cash out to individuals the effectiveness of this is like three percent so three dollars is for every hundred dollars is kind of reaching where it needs to be and isn't impactful and it's a report that came out a couple days ago and in that and that worries me that at the Red Cross can't use technology and we can't engage locally and allow the local communities to be able to own to own these processes and I think that's the the emphasis and the reason why we're working with you know Lucas and and will is because we want to hand back the authority to the communities for example just just real quick the idea is that if we transfer cash to a community in Zimbabwe and we've been doing this for 50 years how do we stop that cycle right how do we stop doing what we do every single day and if we don't stop doing that it's going to become less relevant over time and I just want to show one one quick slide to give you an example so this is basically funding flow that goes to like middle and low-income countries the the dark blue line on the bottom is Oda which is basically you know Development Assistance the humanitarian aspect of that is like 3% when it's all blended in everything else there is private equity financing remittance foreign direct investment and the Red Cross and humanitarian organizations don't touch any of that above that dark blue line and so how do we get into that Nexus how do we start playing in that realm right you know we don't we're losing out which means we can't provide more money but even if we do have more money we have to be more effective and more efficient and so to me that that really bought worries me and I think that's why we're doing these type of things thank you we have about five minutes left I'd like to invite anyone who has any outstanding questions to come and ask them now thank you hi thanks so much for the panel um so in the International Development Theory there is a process and constant distributing and giving away free goods to the rising economy and then what do you think of actually distributing their tokens in there as a way of the bootstraps to introducing in new technologies as you know there are a you know new things for their users and then what will be the next step if you think introducing by air-dropping the talkin to the users what's the next step after that thank you okay Stickley I'll try okay so if you could summarize the question but I'm basically if you can airdrop tokens to users and that can be tied into new technologies and using those technologies like what's the next step for that is basically the question if we go back tie that into also any closing remarks you have about how people can become involved in this type of work and your hopes for the future yeah I I was really disappointed with Bitcoin when it came out and you know this is coming from a you know history of yeah creating currencies and I ain't thought well geez you know here's a group that's just gonna create a currency err you know airdrop a bit of it into the community and expect it to you to gain in value and so I I'm really excited about getting people to to come together and say well we actually do do something and that can be the collateral that is the backing like when I create a currency it is a guarantee against X right and now if that X is a new technology that you're issuing well doc that can be a wonderful source but that it really needs to be articulated and guaranteed in a way like it I feel like you know the backing it with Tomatoes well those tomatoes can quite often be rotten and so can the technology right and so really thinking about you know on chain collateral in a real way that gives people guarantees against you know what that is you know if I'm holding this token there should be no question that there is a backer of last resort and I and I think you know as we talked about creating two point six trillion dollars for all these things it's not like we're just gonna airdrop that and expect those monies to have value the communities actually give it value and the communities have value all right these women trading there their goods and services and doing their farm work that is real value and in fact that you know the whole idea of grassroots economics is about that at building things from the grassroots up so I'm really hesitant about these these schemes that go out and say drop our ubi token for everyone and that's somehow valuables like know these people they have their own value already let them just liquidate that value let them create tokens on it and create collateral systems behind it thank you yeah echoing what we all said I think we need to be mindful of what is it that we're trying to accomplish in these vulnerable markets and developing nations these these places lack well these places have markets that are dormant and if we can find a ways to activate those markets that's the fastest way to growth and community currencies or one way of doing it and and there's this other financial products that need to be introduced and I think us in in rich countries we actually have an overabundance of financial products you have an overabundance of debt overabundance of insurance like I think many people don't know this like your credit card has purchased protections so next time you drop your phone and have the credit card pay for it so we have insurance that we don't even know about sometimes and in developing countries there's just an absolute lack of that so how can we start to introduce accessible and cheap financial instruments and market liquidity issue too in terms of like fractional reserve and you know how do we take say ten thousand euros and how do we multiply that into maybe five acts and why would you want to do that you want to introduce more liquidity and and and in some ways you're not increasing the monetary supply you're increasing the liquidity with the credit supply within that within that community and that's really important when you're trying to fill some of these funding gaps that I mentioned up there before but it's also really interesting to when you think about emergency assistance in disaster so for example some of the stuff the Red Cross looks at is around parametric triggers and we do katashi bonds which is a basically an insurance link security that fund that funding is triggered once you hit kind of you know like peril or something so in eruption of a volcano but this is a really interesting system because if you start to get indicators that there's droughts you can then increase the credit supply without actually transferring any money and if there is like a false positive and then actually there is no drought then you can burn off the tokens or what you have and then bring it back down to some stability so it's kind of like a central bank ish strategy I would just add like the negative feedback is super important too and so like if a token is supposed to have some collateral behind it and doesn't well then you know that token should go away like and there should be systems that allow that to happen in a safe way where if there was collateral behind it can move to other tokens thank you very much to all of you we unfortunately have to draw this panel to a close but please do drop us all an email if you'd like to know more I feel there are still many unresolved in and open questions in this area so thank you very much for family [Applause] you