# Humans of Crypto #8 with Maria Magenes - Oasis.app

- Speakers: Maria Magenes
- Channel: [CryptoCanal](https://streameth.org/cryptocanal)
- Date: 2022-10-07
- Duration: 1:39:31
- Watch: https://streameth.org/watch/yt-xQVJelFwoRs
- YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQVJelFwoRs

## Description

Delighted to finally share Maria Magenes's story with you all. She took an interesting risk a few years ago, to work at a little startup called ETHLend, better known today as Aave... Over the years she has left her mark in the DeFi world, having worked with the Maker Foundation, Balancer and Oasis.app. I hope you enjoy this episode where you will get to know more from this Italian power house! 

Make sure to follow Maria and her endeavors at Oasis 
https://twitter.com/mariamagenes1
https://twitter.com/oasisdotapp
https://oasis.app

00:00 Intro 
00:20 Getting ready for ETHCC
01:20 Building a better UX 
06:00 Getting my first job in crypto… 
08:20 Making up your job 
09:00 Overworking
09:50 Not working during weekends 
12:00 Mountain escapade ruined by a hacker 
17:00 Post MakerDAO 
20:40 Team and fundamentals  
24:20 The best and worst of working with a DAO  
30:45 Not everyone is a leader 
31:30 What is the “community”? 
33:30 Voting in a DAO 
35:00 Staying away from the DAO drama 
37:45 Dealing with Bitcoin maximalists 
40:00 Italian crypto culture  
50:00 What about the merge? 
51:07 We keep building during the bear market 
1:00:00 Jumping into crypto 
1:08 Loving our pets 
1:13 Bringing back the human in crypto conference 
1:17 Online VS in person events 
1:20 Building the future of finance 
1:24 Religion 

CryptoCanal offer education, event and consultancy services for the crypto industry https://cryptocanal.org 
🤗 Join our Telegram community https://t.me/CryptoCanalCommunity​
 🎙 Humans of Crypto on Spotify https://open.spotify.com/show/7JOFEdybzdhhIgDDZmCZ3v

## Transcript

hello welcome to the humans of crypto podcast i'm eleanor and as you know i try to basically find really interesting people to share their stories with you to inspire maybe make you want to do the big jump and move from web 2 to web3 and today i'm joined by the wonderful maria magnus she's basically an italian powerhouse she's worked with ethland also known as ave today balancer oasis app the maker dab foundation you name it she has been involved in many many projects in d5 over the years and i think it's just wonderful to always be able to know more about the person know more about the people that are in d5 that are building the future of finance so as usual if you like the podcast just make sure to comment or like or subscribe do all the good stuff and make sure to check out the links in the description below as well check out her work go follow her and all that good stuff in the meantime just sit back and enjoy this wonderful conversation i had the pleasure to have with maria today enjoy hello hello how are you today i'm good thank you eleanor i'm so happy to have you here today for this podcast um and yeah what has been your day like what have you been busy with today it was a very busy day but uh basically i'm preparing the presentation for um the hcc uh and it's like three weeks that i haven't eat in my calendar like uh i books lots to prepare the presentation and i never do it so today i was quite i mean i was quite able to do it but then something else came up you know and since uh i'm collaborating with different projects there's always like operational stuff to do with so tell us about the presentation what are you going to talk about i will talk about the ux uh how basically ux is a super important for the adoption and so this is adoption of web free but like ux connected with the education so not just ux as it is but you know the the importance and the relevance of the education slash marketing uh with the ux to allow you know uh people to because one of the main entry barriers to the web free is is the fact that it's maybe hard to understand how hard to use uh and that there is a bit of a lack of trust uh in the adapts because they are new there are something completely unknown um it is more or less like what happened in the first years of the internet of the web 2 right so um and we we need to you know all together not just you know it's not just a matter of development so it's it's also a matter of education talking uh connecting with people you know and this is very very important what are the d5 apps in your opinion that have really made ux easy or that we should in my opinion is very very straightforward i'm a bit biased i think this is also something that is related to the fact that we are working on it since 2016. if you think about it so when maker dao was born where this was born and as a front-end at the beginning it was really a [ __ ] and but but then we we have a lot of knowledge you know uh and we the point is that uh the ux for us for at oasis is very based on is designed based on the user feedback so we design not based on our ideas but on what the users want so we release a lot of surveys uh you know and these kind of things but also there are there are now i think the us in general has improved a lot a lot like also ave for example when i joined the the space my first very first job in crypto was with the the former ave which was called in another name italian and completely impossible to understand what you had to do there was this you know like when i when i when i was making my interviews with the with elsani uh in 2018 i was like i mean i mean i was like i don't know anything about blockchain i don't know anything about ethereum i don't understand anything about your [ __ ] words like i said i could study i know that i don't know anything but since i don't know anything i can tell you that you really need marketing you need people to understand what it is about because i can't and i think i'm smart so and i think this is how i convinced them to like hire me even if i was not in the space well you're like i've identified a problem i cannot understand what you're selling and i don't know what problem you're solving either and this is yeah you're missing a content section for newbies or something yeah interesting so did you just randomly apply were you just like i i so i was looking for a job in switzerland because my i was in um i had this boyfriend uh the boyfriend is we are together since we were in like uh second high school so 16. yes high school sweetheart exactly and then he um he made his university in switzerland the italian part of switzerland and then he found a job there i was working in milan back in time [Music] but then i realized that to get my ring on my feet on my finger i needed to move there and not the contrary because he wouldn't have never leave left switzerland to go back to italy so i am i found a job i i completely randomly applied to these because uh the the job posting look looked very strange and inspiring uh and then i me i started to make this into i used to to work in a big company like very you know bureaucratic i used to wear heels to go to work you know like this kind of company and then i found i found my myself in this you know chiasso office with four people they were in chiasso wow with four people in basically and then i and then after one week i they sent me to helsinki because there was lush and i was there in this conference like what i would it it's hard it's hard to to make this jump because uh you especially if you come from an let's call it normal classic working environment it's completely out of your comfort zone at all like you can be i i i am really extroverted uh i am really you know i'm easy i'm an easy person i i get along with with everyone but this was really really hard in the first months because you don't understand anything you don't because you don't um you are in a in a working environment which is completely different from you know the norm the one that we we learned in the university for example and probably for the new generations it will be less i mean easier to uh but but i think this is a very like you need to be you need you need to to to you know be strong at the beginning because otherwise you yeah i i in the first month i was like i want to go back to to my you're not normal where's my nine to five let me find comfort and heels i want to go back to my lower salary you know lower freedom because also freedom is caring is super scary because you in this piece you basically most of the times you you have to invent your own job right you have maybe to do some tasks like operational uh day by day things but for the rest is up to you like especially my job you you can do nothing uh but if you do nothing it's very clear to everyone uh or you can do a lot i for example i i know that i i'm overworking now but but since i'm not i'm not yet burned out i i will keep you know fighting uh-huh okay that's a very interesting point like i think in this space you have a tendency to overwork because like you said if you don't work and because every individual that's taking part in the activity day by day is very important yeah okay you feel like you're over work right now so do you do you have any down time do you make sure you have down time or you know i'm since i'm able to do my stuff like walking the dog you know or go to the gym enjoy you know a night out with friends or my husband not working in the weekend this is something that i don't do never never work on the weekend no wow never that's a good one yes uh but for the rest i'm over working like i i yeah i i also when i am at a dinner during the week if somebody uh message i always answer if i'm on holidays i don't switch off anything and my my my team members are like maria why the [ __ ] are you online you should be alone but but you know i want to have everything in my radar i don't want to miss stuff yeah but the space is like 24 7 as you know it's non-stop yeah do you so on the weekend do you like turn off your phone no i don't but i must tell that during the weekend nobody is bothering like if someone is writing is it's very important so i don't i'm not there checking for example uh twitter or the discord chats or whatever but if somebody message me directly i'm always like when i can i answer but for me the weekend is uh like yes yeah secret yeah night sunday night uh when radically it's over sometimes so you basically take saturday off then the one night and because you finish friday friday too also i'm i also tell you of this thing friday after 4 p.m yes like what the [ __ ] i'm i'm there with my phone in my end but yeah and another thing that is good for us is that we can basically manage everything on mobiles so ipad iphone i i have my all of my google stuff on every device so i mean i one time i tell you this i was i was climbing a mountain with the skis so like in the winter snow and everything there was me my husband and the dog so like and i was and it was it was like minus five or minus ten degrees and uh all of a sudden i received a message on telegram by a hacker i mean it was he said um hello i am a [ __ ] and i can turn down noises can you please give me the contact of your ceo and usually these people are scammed you know like so i said i don't it was a sunday morning so i said i don't think um it's uh you can contact him now uh let me i mean write please write uh what you what you want to support the doctor is i mean i was you know polite but i i thought he would be a scam for sure and then and then you message back telling you uh please check your website i demonstrated that i can turn it down and it was [ __ ] down so i was with the dog my husband screaming me with my frozen end messaging you know on on signal because signal is our backup basically for the emergency uh the deaths and uh like i i wasn't able to ride because my hands was were freezing and i was like um giving a voice some notes to people but then then it was it will solve them so i mean oh my god nobody else of the company was answering to this guy i mean the the public figures so uh everyone was uh so about i mean first thing if you are an actor please don't do it on the unless one day because of you hack another moment like please do it on open hours okay yeah and then but then yeah this is this was a funny story but i had a brutal a fight with my husband in this occasion because he said [Music] you uh you can't stop uh looking at your phone and you can stop working never and and i said but it was an accurate the company was harmed and they said would you could you save the company because i you're not a dev and i said okay no you're right but but but thanks to me i know who to contact to actually solve the problem exactly but sometimes you need to be really like a bit uh [Music] also it's very important to understand that also you're surrounding the people that you you love because they have so we are lucky because we can uh for example cut our time off during the day for example i sometimes i walk the dog the from four to five because i have this whole uh in my working uh in my calls so i do this but normal like normal workers like not not in the in our space that they finished to work at 7 or 6 p.m and then you should be there you know like at least some time because it's not that my husband come home and i'm like working all the time because i took time off before i i try to like you know fit the time of the weekends uh etc with the with what what you have around otherwise um it doesn't work it's difficult and you've been doing this for many years which shows that you're capable of running this uh web 3 marathon yeah it's 40 years now in september october yeah yeah for years and i keep adding stuff no i i really like i uh when i joined baker um i was just working for maker and then uh when maker now this implies completely we needed to choose you know where to go etc i followed this uh oasis team so i i was still abandoned with the maker some of the maker team but in the meantime since people knew that uh maker was like dismantling uh their team uh they are reached out to us you know and uh they're smart yeah smart people are like wait let's start to head hunt people exactly i received a lot of offerings uh and one of them was i mean i would i was really really undecided balancer uh because uh um i really liked the project i i really liked this founder fernando and the team so what i did is wait a second why don't you do both my so since i'm a contractor because when you work remotely you always are a contractor and you can't be an employee um [Music] it's uh i asked to to the team and where do this team it be a problem if i work part-time for a balancer and to balance her the same and they all of all of them were was super happy and then i i started with both and now it's more than one year that i'm with both and it's it's going good i mean uh and sometimes i'm i'm also helping uh different like i'm consulting and helping different projects when they need because uh you also like meet a lot of people you and you know for example i i was in touch with the solas solace is like a defy insurance project okay they launched the one year ago or more and they so i met the founder uh in paris last year and he was you know he was so nice and the project was nice so i said okay yes i will help you and from from time to time when they need uh i i help them or or for example now i'm collaborating with polygon dao because the polygon they launched this this dao to help basically the goal is to help the projects to that build on top of polygon with the different uh like not only money so not only grants but also you know skills expert talks are not ecosystem board you know and they their marketing in the dao was completely um a mess so uh okay yeah i'm helping a bit you know there to organize the the marketing for yeah i'm like here and there everywhere yeah i'm i'm counting like four projects right now that you're currently involved in or more three okay the insurance and oh my god and balancer and oasis is not in you know okay so sometimes they're like one-time gigs or like small projects you like those and you take and then you leave and you let them how do you for you is it really about the people involved or like do you i think uh are there certain fundamentals like would you work for a centralized project for example what's important to you when you join a project is it more like the team or do you look at the fundamentals i think um [Music] it's a mix of of the you know it's a mix and so the team i think is the first thing that i i consider because i i i think it's 70 percent of the the work the the good work that you can do is the uh if you can work with the team uh in a in a good way um and the second is the uh yes i think the uh the concept right so uh if i don't understand or or i don't like or i don't i don't give a [ __ ] about about the project for example i i'm not into gaming right so i know that it's nice but um i don't i don't care you know like i'm not involved i don't i really don't care about nfts i don't even understand this like hype so i can't work for an ftp you know like then i sometimes i understand immediately if i don't like uh the thing uh sometimes you realize maybe after one month or three weeks that you are cooperating and you say no guys i'm not like i'm not aligned and i'm you know uh that's it but uh for example for example polygon they uh the dao so polygon itself is not uh i would not have considered to but but the concept of the dao is nice because they are like uh they are trying to onboard you know to enlarge the ecosystem in a very uh healthy way uh by helping uh projects you know they they have a lot of resources so they they you know help projects they they are really trying to collaborate a lot with the ethereum um on events you know they you can see that they are trying to uh we are building a better you know future together uh and i think uh it's since the guy running the tao is italian that that's why i i got in touch with uh with them because uh the marco is the daolid is a italian so they came to uh the event that i organized in milan with the uh with matteo er the events yes yeah they were sponsoring and he and then i also met them in permissionless so i mean he asked for help and i was happy to to to help them a bit uh of course with my time that i it's limited because my full focus in is always on when this uh and and balancer yeah i can see that there's also a track record now of like being involved in dows could what's like the best and the worst of having worked with dallas so as i said as i always tell to when they ask me would you recommend someone to to work in a dao the answer is [Music] it depends no it depends fine it's different because for example it depends really on how the person this person is so uh i would uh not recommend to someone who is who needs some you know organization who needs some you know security and tao is a mess every dao is a mess really like maker was probably one of the first and one of the most efficient but still is a mess you know even if it's very well structured uh etc there are teams there are core units that are working very well and there are core units that are not and in general the overall dao needs improvement in in its efficiency balancer dao was a complete mess as well they also organized in subdials and i mean this structure that there is no like uh that there is not yet uh a history uh you know i um best case you know history to apply so when indeed normal organizations and normal companies you have plenty of books you know i also made a a class in in my university called the organization yeah you know yeah that's a thing yeah i remember similar studies what the [ __ ] yeah okay that was it's something completely new so we don't know how to organize them from a legal perspective because we want to be uh to we want to be you know compliant with the law but we need to understand how we don't know if some function should be cross for example do each department should each the department has have its own marketing or its own finance or its own legal or should this function be cross there are a lot of different experiments right now uh that we will see how they will you know end up uh in my opinion um it's something that will last years right now it's nice so one of the best thing is that you are part of these experiments so you can see uh what is going on uh however you don't have any like um you don't i mean you can't work just for a doll in my opinion because you don't you need a job security at least me so i can't i'm involved with those i like to be involved but should be on the side i mean i ca really uh what if you are plenty of assets you know that you are okay and you are rich already that's okay but if like me you need a salary every month because i have a mortgage to pay you know yeah now it's nice but um this is my opinion maybe of course there will be someone who completely think the the contrary but no it's it's it's super interesting and i think obviously i'm personally not involved in any doubts but i've been close to certain projects and cryptocurrencies which have a form of governance um and daos are supposed to are the how we should organize these decentralized this is how we keep decentralization at a organizational level um i'm just we'll see like you said and some as you said some projects and some cryptocurrencies have it just more figured it out and more yeah with more structure and others are just more and that one thing developing what is the uh for example for maker that i appreciate a lot is that it's true that uh it's a bit of i mean as every dao is a bit um there is a lot of to improve but they sticked from time zero to this structure and they keep trying to optimize this structure and they don't because another thing that i noticed is that a lot of doubts keep restructuring like they try two months with a structure and then let's make a restructuring let's try these no in my opinion you should choose one and of course at the beginning is not perfect that there will be always something wrong but it's not in my opinion it's not just a matter of structure it's a matter so you should and this is something that maker dao did so they choose this core unit model and they you know try to to make it better uh but stan sticking with these you know organization what do you think was important there was it the leadership that was in place that made sure that this structure didn't move versus other dows that are maybe younger and that keep trying to innovate is it linked to people linked to people and that i wouldn't say leadership because it's without you you never talk about uh leadership you know it's like it's a bad word there's no leaders we are all leaders no this is not true this is not true but but because we need i mean the human being need a guide so it's not you know it's not true that everyone is a leader come on but uh besides this i think that maker was really a matter of people they did them the culture of the core team which was the one of the maker foundation and the community the strength of the community uh this was the i think the the point a very good point i'm thinking as certain of your roles in crypto have involved or a lot of them have involved being part of the community community manager what is for you the community i know this is like a very vague question but i'm trying to meta here is like are they are they more are they more than just token holders you know and how do you define the culture what is the culture for you in web 3 or per project i i don't i'm not even sure if every token order can be considered part of the community so in my opinion the community is those who care about the project right so if i if i buy so for example i have some bitcoin right but yeah but i'm not in my in my world but i'm not part of their community because i i just care about other projects so if i buy the token [Music] i i am a stakeholder but i'm not right you know part so the community it's in my opinion a matter of caring and be involved somehow in in the project and for example there can be people who don't hold any token this is not happening often but uh for example at the beginning when i joined maker before they gave me the mkr i didn't hold any nkr but i was really part of the community uh and you know writers uh like uh so it's not just a matter of talk i i i don't know i don't i don't think they talk of course the the token holders of mkr they uh are able to vote uh but some some of them maybe don't even know that this is a governance token you know like they just hold them kr because they think they will uh earn money i mean the the value of nkr will will uh raise and uh they so these are not part of the community yeah do you yourself do you vote as well every time no how no so sometimes i don't every time because there are polls that i don't even understand so i also think no so i also think that you need you don't just vote you you need to vote when you uh really want to like uh and you understand what it is about and you want to give your your opinion as well as the same for balancer you know it's not so at maker sometimes they increase the dust yeah okay like i i let them go to people who you know are technical enough to understand what does it mean of course maybe this is something wrong but i i think that uh in this like this is this is a democracy but it's not like voting for a referendum is something that that sometimes is something that you need some knowledge to vote on so uh i think uh that not everyone everyone every time needs to work do you feel like there's do you personally get involved if there's i don't know conflicts or the level of politics that can go on in a dao i think as you said these are so such new type of organization there's no leadership dramas a lot yeah i always stay okay i uh you know me a bit now and i'm a very you know happy you know i don't i don't i really hate this kind of things i i want to just stay away but you don't have an idea of how much drama is always happening in these uh in these forums you know uh every every every three months or something happens and sometimes it's super bad sometimes is the you know something that is just a fire of you know days and then but in general uh there is there is a lot of yes of politics drama and yeah but i really want i don't i can't even bring you any specific example because i really want to you know stay away from these uh sometimes i drop my comments super you know a like like hey guys let's try to get along let's try to work together you just sprinkle some unicorn emojis [Laughter] it's interesting and it's also i think a way of protecting yourself because when you're so involved with a project and you're also the link towards the outside world right sometimes who don't know all these details or everything that's happening you're the buffer yeah because then sometimes also the outside community maybe i'm talking about those that are not super involved in the dao are going to come to you and ask you questions and then you're it's a very difficult position to be in actually yeah when the more you put yourself out there in these public discussions the more people think that that that they can ask you anything uh and also i think that it's very important i mean for me it's very important for my job because i'm doing um as i said i'm doing uh uh education uh i'm doing marketing so yeah uh it's very important to be agnostic uh sometimes i um i had discussions with the uh people for example bitcoin maximalists in italy a lot of a lot of conferences even if they called them like blockchain week or ethereum something it's always plenty of bitcoin maximalists because we are a bit behind device not well known you know and most of the people are bitcoin [Music] and sometimes i i it happened to have some discussions but i always try to stay you know polite and like bring my arguments and my you know knowledge to help them understand why blah blah blah and this is my approach so that's why i never like comment uh this paper and also can i tell you something sometimes i i read some forums with people writing like blurbs like bibles of comments and i and i wonder how they they have time to make this like you know like i don't have even time to think and write it's like writing a blog post or even more like what the [ __ ] i don't have time for this like i know that sometimes uh is also relevant to to to chip in in these discussions and i'm happy that some people do i think that they are right in defending their opinions and the discussion is very healthy some discussions because dramas are not the discussions are healthy but i'm not this kind of you know i seldom end up in like discussing uh with the with people especially in public publicly why do you think that italy is as you said a bit behind and why do you think there's such a big proportion of uh bitcoin maximalists i think that italy is behind in a lot of stuff especially no i mean but this this crypto thing is uh i think there's not enough in the end it's strange because we made spaghetti and we found out that there are a lot of people actually building uh on ethereum but also on i mean in web3 in general but like the proportion of these persons that are usually working for non-italian projects because this event was full of people like me that are italian but they work for a german project uh uk project you know not not italian some are italian founders so for example idol finance is uh mateo is italian and is the founder but there are not a lot and on the other hand uh all of the other people are more interested in uh are ill-seeking you know like uh not uh not interested in in the technology itself this is my perception but in making money through crypto so bitcoin i don't want to tell anything bad about bitcoin but at least this is a i've been a big blocker for a long time so it's it's a safe place here ain't no maxie yes the blockchain so i thank big bitcoin because it it was the first blockchain but this is really just an asset like what can you do on bitcoin you know ethereum is something that allows you to you know build a a new financial system bitcoin agent is just uh shifting the the crypto from a to b and uh hoping that it will uh you know increase its value so um this is uh this is the the this is the point so italians want to just they see crypto just as an as an asset and and they don't understand that there is a world behind uh they don't yet because maybe they will i hope they will i have been recently to the blockchain week in rome um and i must tell that this was a bit more uh there i i heard some talks by people who was uh also involved in ethereum and uh i i think that that this uh blog this blockchain week was uh valuable really like uh very good contents and the people was device was a bit less you know [Music] less boomers okay no it's interesting i think a lot i mean as a community manager myself or whatever i'm doing it's interesting to see the different profiles right and of people that are either interested only in the tech or only in the price going up um and [Music] when i see you you mentioned that for you bitcoin is just like moving asset from a to b and then hoping that the price goes up right i usually compare bitcoin to nokia 3210 remember your first phone i think education when you're talking about education and you're describing these blockchains people for them it's all the same thing right it's all crypto and we're all weird people and we're all weird people who just want to buy lamborghinis for some reason yeah you know that's kind of the meme that's hindering adoption as well it's a very bad image that's like crypto but you you know and uh because bitcoin is nokia 3210 okay it's our first phone we could play snake you know yay good battery life or whatever but today we have you know smartphones that can take pictures and record and do so much more and have you know a a garden a huge garden of different apps yes so that's the difference right as a phone but it's not the phone i would be using today exactly exactly i mean that that that that was what i was telling you before like um i thank bitcoin and satoshi for inventing this because it allowed us now to do more but why should we stay binded to i mean the the thing that i don't understand by a bit when maximized is [Music] why you don't accept i mean why you don't like it here i mean you know because i i'm not ethereum people they don't dislike bitcoin they are okay i mean okay thanks but i'm building on top of something that's because i can you know so my question is why you what's wrong with the theory like what do you want oh they'll find they'll find me as you know they'll find many reasons yeah you dislike it and but i i must think that i had a lot of discussions and i have never understand uh understood what was the i mean what was the reason like a valid reason well it's they know that by attract well i mean all of d5 is built on ethereum basically yes and the thing is it clashes with the their narrative right but it's not the narrative or it's the value of the token again you see when you attack the narrative or when your narrative is better than theirs you might influence their holdings and the value of that asset eventually eventually the market will understand where the value is and therefore yeah and therefore maybe it's a price thing you know the more my opinion is just surprise thing in my opinion they should try to like i mean when we uh so the the the blockchain interoperability in my opinion is fundamental because uh um uh we we we are not uh when we are building up so we are not excluding bitcoin all there is a there is a rap bitcoin and there are you know uh yes uh i know it's not the same but if you are a bitcoin order you can still use the five product yeah so why they are not like grateful for this instead be grateful that we include your wrapped stuff or okay honor yes well because it's not real it's for them as long as it's not built on bitcoin they know that the the economics of it all that if everything is built in another blockchain than bitcoin and they've refused to scale they've literally it's in their narrative that they do not want to scale and they don't they remove the op codes that could at least enable you know stuff like colored coins yeah um it's for them all the rest is therefore a scam they are the only one the maxi maxi ones right i'm not talking about the general probably maybe but like maxis are really like there should be only bitcoin and anything else is as a scam right and yeah yeah then you just said step step away from those i i agree those conversations get very heated but that was where i was born i was born in in those type of debates um having to build a wallet that included bch one of the first wallets actually we were the first wallet to enable btc and bch holdings and therefore my first job in crypto was understanding these things understanding these block size wars and having to understand you know scalability debates and stuff like that but recently as you know having worked more with the ethereum community it's fascinating to see the difference in culture the difference in people that are building on different worlds there's just different characters i don't know i don't know yeah i don't know like let's i mean i i always uh you yeah i already told it i am always you're more you're chill you don't want to get because you know i want everybody to get along we are all part of the same you know movement i'm happy we have people like you i get i get i get my hands more i'm less agnostic i guess but it's it's just for me it's also the interesting part of it is that there is conflict we are building we don't all agree since all of this is still in the making yes it's difficult it's difficult and you're right drama bad we should always stay polite and have be able to have constructive you know discussions yes and listen to each other but i think people you know in crypto it's like your ego and your money and your career and who you are are just you know it's all one big mess and so people are really really really really emotional as well which i also understand it's like exactly messy are you excited for the merge is this something that you follow a little bit ah i'm not following but i am [Music] i mean i i am excited uh but i don't think uh some people in my opinion think too much about this like i think that this merge will be bringing a lot of uh changes uh a lot of they will solve a lot of stuff like gaza gaza prize but it's not so um yeah it's not it's not a panacea it doesn't solve everything but i i think that i'm excited because i see uh you know uh now there is this beer market but i really like this space because really nobody stopped if we are building even more like even faster and the merge is part of of this path so it's nice to see how we don't stop for the beer market you know and we are actually taking even more effort in what we do and the heads are down and you know yes so i don't think the merge will change for example there are a lot of friends of mine like should i buy now before then and they say guys i'm not nostradamus but i don't think that i mean if you want to try at least there is a reasoning behind but you never know you know i i i think that uh for sure there will be something uh something up after the merge but this is not a matter of price of the token as usual as as i always you know think yeah it's interesting how how much do you think your family and friends understand what you're doing like because if they come to you only when you know who the newspaper said that this is dead or like this person got hacked but you know you don't know you don't you so now everybody knows that it's a bad period for the market right yeah so my friends are like no not my close friends but the people i know are you okay [Music] all good do you still have a job and i said guys i mean i have a normal son of course i could be richer but uh and now i'm but i'm still like as you i have a salary back home but uh yes my friends and family that so the only one that understand a bit now it's my husband because he's interested in uh in understanding what i do so i always try to explain and i always try to understand and some of my friends are really uh like they they are interested because i [Music] i work in this space for the rest is just what i should buy and then i this year they put me in in the in the forbes list of people under 30 and uh yes and all of uh that like my non-friends like people that know me maria can i ask you some tips about and i'm like guys i mean i'm i'm not an expert of the prices i don't know just and and i always i always say guys you should you should download coinbase which is the easiest and from there it's very simple you connect your people and you buy the crypt and i said and this and they asked me but i can't afford one bitcoin not yeah come on i know but cute no like also like so like i mean you just and i always like smiling you know with the breathing you can choose to like buy 50 euros of bitcoin as well it's a part of bitcoin you know it's like when you it's like a normal car and see you you have also percentages you know decimals no but yeah but i mean i i i can understand because i as i told you when i joined i didn't understand anything i just said that this cryptokitty i mean i knew what it was the blockchain etc but um so i i i know that this can be difficult and this is our job so figures like me and you we are here to like make people understand and and make people uh willing to understand you know because uh some people could understand but they are not giving a [ __ ] they don't care and they are like ah you start explaining and they are like ah no i don't understand anything you'll stop it but it's not like the point so for example my brother he is a super super smart like he he was the top in his class university whatever and when i tried to explain him what i do and the defy etc is always at a certain point it's like i don't understand but now is improving because he is trying to like challenge me you know like when i say something and why blah blah blah so why you don't blah blah blah you know interesting this is the conversation that uh our elt i have this my sister as well sometimes when i she's gone through my classes she's done the crypto 101 um but she is also it's interesting that your brother is also like that she also asks me a lot of questions she's very in a defensive yet protective way maybe yeah you know the the sibling is a bit like worried that you're in this thing so they want to make sure that that you can justify what you're doing and yeah and your reasoning for being part of this and yeah it's yeah but i don't care you know like it's four years that i so when i join up iceland uh my husband was like former boyfriend was um [Music] are you going to work for three guys in an office without a laptop because they didn't give my the company left you know i had my own uh are you sure and i was like no i'm not i don't know what i'm doing but i'll just keep going everybody was the only person that was like uh like agreeing with me uh when i decided to to quit my job at sky uh for to go it was my my boss there at sky yeah he was is one of my like forever favorite uh but he's he was super smart and young he's like a big brother for me now uh and he uh was so so heavy like you know these these bosses that that scream a lot on your face yeah yeah and everybody of the team hated him but me because i i basically i responded when he was too much i i told the like to come this is too much but when i when i told him i'm leaving and he knew about all the situation with the boyfriend etc and decided to do what and i said uh i'm going to this piazza with the crypto thing and this was like uh but what what do they do and i said uh they are building this um peer-to-peer landing marketplace on ethereum ah that i think this is the future good job go good luck but i think you are on the right path because he was already into ethereum and he gave me a book afterwards called ethereum i don't remember the author but it was one of the first book that they wrote about tyrion and he said i i read it and it was super useful maybe it will be useful for you to i mean he was really supportive and because he was already you know into the the thing uh but now now everybody want to join this space you know like maria um before this was maria what the [ __ ] are you doing are you leaving sky for this what is this my my parents you know like uh and now maria is there any way i can jump what do you tell those people what do you tell because it's that's very interesting that in four years we went to like okay you're working kind of with criminals and it's weird and what the [ __ ] you're anti-fiat like it's what are you doing to can i have an internship at uh just make her offer internships yes no so i think i i'm always happy to when people want to to join so i i try to give them advices but the point is that now a figure like me or four years ago it's not accepted they don't want them because they you need to have some experience now you don't i mean i i started there um underpaid uh but still even if i was underpaid my salary was higher than the one that i received in italy so okay uh and i didn't do and i didn't know anything and now a person who needs to do marketing for projects needs to know you know and it's impossible to know without being already in the space in my opinion because you don't you can't you can learn [Music] outside you can learn by by reading and watching youtube it's impossible you should start from the very basics but if you are already a manager for example outside you can't be a manager inside you know you know what i mean yeah no tell me it's it's difficult i mean i always try to encourage people to leave their normal job and come into web three but before anything i think it's become a power user like as you said you cannot learn yeah through books come to meetups meet people yes it's really it's you know i i i really care about meetups because i really believe that it starts by meeting no no absolutely you have to i learn a lot i i most of my connections and everything was uh through meetups so they um when i joined maker they they met me because i was uh with them at meetups so we were called to meetups with them without their and they at a certain point they asked me do you want to to join and i said yeah why not yeah but that's what i would tell your friends just join your local meetup yes you know if you want to jump if you're considering jumping yeah i'd like to join a meetup meet people get inspired start using start becoming a make transactions get a wallet you know just go through it go through the process and then maybe or something but yeah you're right the profile of someone who knows nothing just stumbles upon this yeah yeah i remember having to like write articles about what is proof of work but being at the time there wasn't as many resources as there are now and it was really difficult to just i don't know i think now there's so much more content right so much more like every exchange every amm whatever they they all have like educational portals now where you can learn but at the time it's really difficult and i think what was nice is i could just run over to our devs at the time we were all in an office and we were all part of something like that and it could just run up to the devs and like knock knock yeah what do you mean the what do you mean the miners are looking for a nonce what's annoying yes yes what do you mean mempool before i didn't know these things right no no in fact yeah it's yeah so one of the i think bad things about our uh working environment is that uh working remotely is not the same as working with the team physically because you learn a lot you really like i notice it when we do of sights for example so you basically produce more value more ideas in these three days than in one whole year because uh you it's not the same you know like uh being in an office together is always i learned a lot a lot a lot from the um uh italia from the avid devs in castle because we stayed one year basically it was me and the devs so every time i had adopted i just asked them and i really i'm super thankful to them because i i and and now i have no problems in asking on the chat but it's not like you know you are reading something and you just say hey what is this you need to type and maybe you said okay we'll type later and then you don't you know yeah it's not the same it's just not the same would you would it be possible where where are you based now would you you have a mini oasis balancer hub going on are you the only rep no i'm i'm the only one in newcastle wow always carrying all of d5 on your shoulders yes no but i must tell that i am i so since i travel a lot i have the chance to meet people actually quite often because i always [Music] i always travel i always try to be in the conferences etc this is not sustainable for me because uh maybe i will have a kid and i how can i do like i will be the one who brings the kid to the conference but not but not hopefully not in the first year for example maybe you know like it's hard especially i could see you on the panel with a kid on your lap maybe you you know i yeah this kind of person so yeah of course we're gonna do that i can't wait to see our kids like at crypto meetups we're gonna it's gonna be great it's gonna be this whole the dog generational thing no the dog the problem of the dog hello is that it's quite big so i can't bring a hair around with the plan yeah well okay pets i agree are are different i thought that you have a a black cat yeah we have we have two uh we have two cats but kay is the one who always likes to show up and calls and rub himself i love it i love the black pets yeah so they're brothers and sisters one's black and one's black and white yeah because uh people like in the public opinion i don't know black cats and black uh dogs are like the devil you know oh well so it's like we're already way past your position and also if i must tell it's uh always like with every outfit i yeah it's my black cat or my black dog exactly great accessory it's like a purse you know it's like no you don't know how many lashes there i'm uh i'm buying for this this dog like my husband wants to kill me but yeah because i have a lot of lashes and and in the end i always use the same but i have a lot because every time i see a fancy lash i i like it i must say well it's fine to spoil our pets but they don't give a [ __ ] about their lives yeah they don't give them they just want to be feed you know fed and i i she just care about the food and you know we we we started taking them out our cats like the walks so wait no this is going to be hilarious i'm glad you showed your dog but this is this is so random but this is a backpack i love it for your cats so you you you bring them like uh to the monta today like um listen to amsterdam just just no we haven't like gone too far but just in the neighborhood and just like for no i think you should organize so i i took my dog to ski uh she's king with us because we go up with the like um this is key help so you go up with the skis and then you remove the things under and then you go down you do the the put [ __ ] yeah yes yeah and uh she is coming with us she's coming everywhere but they're probably a dog dog maybe seaside yeah but the cats they don't like these kind of things it's okay i you know i've started like putting them on leashes and stuff so it's cute it's cute i literally have a bag here i'm very similar to you i also have a bag of leashes for cats which is insane but it's fine we will back to the topic of bringing our kids to crypto meetups because we will you know merge our lives but indeed maybe local meet us but traveling around the world trips around all the different defec because there's a defy crypto conference every everywhere all the time every month yeah now that it's not coveted anymore and people want to get together i mean since devconnect it's just been non-stop but i haven't want i haven't moved from amsterdam so for me my i'll go to a lot of things here but i don't want to travel all the time also for me it doesn't make sense for you maybe more because you're part of like big d5 projects and therefore you have to like yes you know it's part of the networking marketing growth strategy yeah but yeah no i won't travel as much as you are you ready for eth cc i don't have your presentation presentation ready but you know when it's in europe is okay for me it's not you know super uh super stressful uh the problem is when it's like a way like for example i saw some pictures on islands recently which conference was that like it was really miami it was a permission list yes all right yeah these were but and then there i was able to because my brother lives in texas so uh when i go to us i always try to you know attach some some time with family but the point is that like you would stay away from home 10 days and my husband is going to the office so he's with zerlanda so he's like the dog i need to take care you know at a certain point after the pandemic i was like let me travel but then i was like in the end it was not to stay on it no always no but now it's this last month has been really like too much and i don't want to do anything uh up to at least def con and i'm not even sure if i go there no but i mean i'm not i don't think i'll be like i still brought back all the yeah this is all the the hackathon decoration there but yeah boguta bogota sounds interesting but i think i will go just if they maybe if they accept my talk so we applied uh with the link link and me we applied for the same more or less the same panel that we made at devconnect because so defcon is very technical uh however i think i believe in lenka too that it's also uh always nice to talk about these human related topics totally you know even if the conference is completely uh technical it's always nice to take some talks and some space for feelings and you know you know human human side of all of this thing and this panel was really interesting so uh yeah so you and lenka in bogota to talk about yeah if they accept i think they will accept us because we are females you know now that it's all of this gender thing they're like oh my god wait women that we can put on stage nah they will i think her talk and i also want to invite her here for the i think i would love to hear her story as well her personal story of how she got into krypto and everything but her talk about how to get a job in web 3 was like such a success and then the panel discussion about you three um with ryan as well talking about working in web 3 and what it's like yeah people people relate and you cannot only do that i mean of course i think defcon is there to enhance the technical knowledge of everyone but hopefully also increase the connections yes bring back i think that so i think that these conferences are 50 percent the contents and the 50 percent the vibes like an advice but you know the how they can connect people so it's not about the conference it's about environment that you can create with this conference right so for example devconnect was amazing in my opinion because besides the conferences which were very good um [Music] the whole thing was great so you you worked and you found someone uh you know you go you went to the work in the working space and you find the people you you everywhere everyone was there so for example it's easy a lot of people they couldn't get the ticket but i think that it's just go yes just go they think it doesn't useless i have the ticket because i i'm speaking but i would have gone anyways you know because i hang out in the bar next door i i never i have never i have never stayed more than two hours listening to the talks at a conference in a day because in the end you are always like chatting with people connecting uh you know it's then there are these like three or four talks that you really want to hear um and you you go but uh for the rest is not a matter of of talks for me so even if the conference is technical i don't care you know like um i go there and i do something else yeah yeah because your strength is to connect with people your strength is to speak and connect yeah that is you as well yeah yeah yeah but yeah yeah i think uh um one of the things that i learned in working uh in this space especially during the pandemic is how not to lose this ability when i'm not physically able to to you know and it's not easy uh i had to invent like reinvent my virtual personality but yeah but i feel like it's so important so yeah yeah what i found very frustrating as an event organizer was of course the i really believe in the sort of the peer-to-peer the humanness of and even if you and i can be we're good online let's say like it looks like right now we're just having coffee in person yeah it doesn't change anything for us that's not for everyone no and a lot of people are just it's just not at all so yeah we created like i tried doing you know crypto drinks online which we did we were drinking every month together online which is a bit of a sadder version of like having kids together because you're in front of your computer and you're drinking and you're just like yeah yeah but i'm with people so you know we have the weekly beer every friday yeah well we we tried to keep that during you know lockdown days let's just you know we'd have like one tenth of the amount of people that come up for in person yeah yeah the same it's not the same it's it's hard it has been very like a breakfast you were doing what was it yeah the friday brand yeah fr fry dye right yeah um it was called branch just because uh uh it was uh hosted in the like morning u.s time yeah uh but in the end it was just like a very informal um community event when i when basically i chose some topics not always maker related but web free related and i invited the speakers uh to talk about them uh uh yeah i see i see but still i mean anything that you do online any event that you're gonna it's just not the same no it's not the same at all so what is what makes you really happy about being in crypto what really motivates you what's important to you for being in crypto i think that [Music] the main thing is uh uh that we are really we could and i i i believe we are building the future so you are i i couldn't be i couldn't build anything concrete because of my studies and of my background because when you are for example um a doctor or you know i don't know chemistry you you you you do this kind of like more technical and scientific um studies then you make a job that you are producing something you know and it's and you can see the the product for me it has always been difficult to understand what i was building before joining crypto because here i'm doing my small piece like everyone is doing to build something very very big and then that really could be the future so this is uh i think the best uh part no definitely i think i i think we have a similar background i saw that you were at did you also we we both i think went to singapore for an exchange really is that what i i in us yeah yeah i was at the uh lee kuan yew school of public policy which is linked to nus but i think we were there i think you were there a bit earlier than me in this time i was uh like july or august no yes july 2013 yeah yeah so a bit a bit earlier than me but it's really interesting to see i don't know exactly which i studied like political science and public management and i was into water management and that was something i thought that's how i was going to change the world was changing how water was distributed basically but i think the moment i understood that in crypto we're changing finance which changes everything and that really excited yeah it's it's interesting and that i think it's a motivation that that's why even in bear or bull it doesn't matter no it doesn't it doesn't matter no it's it's this and people will say oh you're an occult you're you're in a cult what is this belief you know what do what do you mean toppling you know fiat or doing better than i yeah i think people like us are there to just make sure that and those so i think a good future i think that is also nice to um this is a like good and bad but when people ask you what you do it's nice to answer something that they don't get at all like sometimes i like with the you know older people i'm working in crypto the bitcoin yes yes yes yeah and others you're like well it's with an automated market making platform built on and another one is where you can you know use your dye and stake it [Laughter] well it was amazing to have yesterday today and just catch up very nice conversation is there anything that you want to share about you that we should know that i haven't asked or that about me it's very yeah about me something so you want something uh that is uh surprising about me or something something we can remember you by something um i'm a very religious person okay yeah you wouldn't tell but i am so i go to the church every sunday and yes uh but yeah i mean it is not and for the rest i'm very transpired so i think it's very easy to understand how i am [Music] but this thing is something that you wouldn't tell and so this is what i want to share yeah thank you for that's very i think anyone's you know link or faith is something very i think it's i think it's very it's very nice and important in our kind of job which is very you know fast uh stressful to have some kind of safe place you know which can be religion can be a meditation it can be isn't it it doesn't have to be a golden whatever it should be just your like place where you just you understand that this is not the life you know it's not uh life is not work it's not performing well all the time etc but and this is something that is not easy to understand by yourself so you need to be uh binded to something like meditation or yoga whatever an activity so for me going to the church is this uh where you really it's this is the place where i don't think about my stress and my stuff uh and i think it's very and i know a lot of people uh uh was helped by this kind of things in the space and strongly invite everyone to engage on netflix there is also um a course about meditation i saw okay and there are some apps as well yeah there's some good ones uh out there definitely and i think it's nice that you can share your way as well of anchoring yourself and and more and you know giving meaning in your life as well yeah were you brought up uh religious or yeah yeah something we discovered later no i was raised like in italy uh everyone is catholic right in my generation is very like left the church is so i am like you know strange relationship with the church as an institution uh because i don't i don't like um i'm not understanding everything it's uh done by the church uh but i am really really like uh from a spiritual uh point of view i'm really believing you know in uh in god and in the church as a structure so i like to go to the church but i don't sometimes i don't understand that i don't appreciate the church as an institution uh like the big you know macro uh for example my my wedding uh witness was uh is gay so you know i don't i don't but i don't think that the gay people can't marry why you know these kind of things for me it's not and this is why i think a lot of my generation our generation are going away from from the the catholic religion because in the end uh you uh i go to the mass because i like it not because i have to to go uh and uh it's uh a lot of friends of mine they came when we were like kids and now we are like two people that's good but you know i this is something so i think that a lot of uh has to be changed but for me it's a matter of experience spiritual uh you know thing and yeah i was raised like this but i also had the luck to meet the right people the right price you know the right group of people uh a group of kids that now are my best friends in the in the church you know space then a lot of them as i said now they are completely agnostic and whatever but but we were able to build this very big group of friends so all of these things you know brought me to to this and but my husband for example is not isn't is not like me you know it's calming when i go sometimes you know it's but for me it's this really this hour of the week where i'm obliged more or less to think about something else because i'm not doing it at home i don't i can't i'm not able so i go also when i am abroad so for example uh when i was in um uh denver there was a sunday in the middle and i went to the church you know like i find the church everywhere yeah yeah it's it's interesting that you're part of different decentralized global communities in a way i guess there's your crypto family and then there's also your catholic yeah you'll find meetups probably everywhere and you'll find churches yeah yeah do you find that do you see a link between religion and and cryptocurrency or and maybe the communities that are created in crypto actually i was thinking about it uh yesterday i don't know why that we we use a lot the word community in the religion the religious uh landscape so uh when you when you for example join you you move to another town city if you are catholic you can find the catholic community of this place or the muslim community or whatever and the community world is also a lot to use in crypto you see and it is again a matter of caring so uh i think yes that this connection can be made of course we are talking about completely two different uh kind of things but uh yes yeah probably like more on the sort of the shared values the shared ideas belief yes um building something bigger i think yeah yeah yeah spreading it spreading the word um yeah wow thank you for sharing that was that was special because i i yeah i as a i guess it's interesting that you mentioned meditation and yoga as other ways to sort of yeah i mean do it i also cannot do it at home i also have to go somewhere like you on sundays or me doing to just not do this all the time yes and think of yeah you other things you switch off your phone and you just do anything like uh for you you know uh and it doesn't have to be for example i also like to run but it's not the same because you are running something where you remove stress doing something you know fatigue like you um while the activities are calming you know it's you need to think you can think you you you can't think about the music that you're listening like when i run i don't think about anything because i'm just like trying to survive with the music but when you when you do uh these kind of activities the more like calm and you the touch but you also think about something else which is not uh not your your business your stuff you think about the something bigger you know uh and the the meaning of your life which is not a working uh yeah yeah well thank you so so much really it was such a pleasure to have you on and to be able to shine light on on your story on you know on your path and your experiences in crypto and um this is only the beginning i think four years yeah in this do you see yourself doing this for the next i don't know i really live day by day i when i joined i thought i will last six months and yeah i will be staying one more year and then [Music] but would anything else interest you to do i have a family business and i'm um yes that's why the family is like are you done with your crypto already i'm back yeah i'm like my brother like i'm not paying you like this well keep this in mind when you want to join everything okay maybe but i think i can do like these things that i do i can do it like also a bit on the side because it's it's very interesting for me uh besides the so of course i can't be engaged with three projects for the rest of my life but i believe that something i will be somehow involved for a long time [Music] in the in the space no matter what happens uh i will be somehow involved it's impossible to it's how can i disappear like no i it would be not feasible like i should remove all of my apps but then i would feel up really like whole no right you're hooked for life tell your brother to fight this is not gonna no no no he knows i mean he knows that i can uh i will join maybe but uh on the side i will be doing this as well so yeah he will know oh that's cute well thank you so so so so much uh for sharing and everybody who's been listening with with us so far um just follow her just go and look at everything she's been building all the projects she mentioned i'll be leaving all the links below maria see you very soon thank you good luck at your presentation at ecc and if you're picked uh ecc i don't think so i could be one of those weirdos who just who who just shows up as well but i told you i'm like i'm such an amsterdam yeah it's like no it's it's very tempting it's in europe it's important come on you can come by next door yeah i'm definitely not flying not in these days no i'm oh my god these weeks i will take like six flights yeah i sorry like i will go to a wedding in the south of italy with the plane then on on then i come back then on tuesday i will go to uh to sardinia with my parents yeah that's a lot yeah that's a lot no it's it's just well definitely not flying but yeah paris is tempting just one yeah to just catch up i feel like let me know if you if you if you join now you will be invited to the best parties like maria can can maria can grant you access everywhere you're making it harder you're making it's like this constant conference fomo as well you know because i love to meet up with people and and i was spoiled in april when everybody came to to here um but yeah i do miss it i do miss it are you coming to amsterdam anytime soon no i don't think i'm waiting for your next event okay bookmark uh april once again i can't say more but bookmark for eight for france for april 2023 i think probably very sure okay cool let me let me resume the the podcast thank you everybody for listening and see you for the next episode of the humans of crypto podcast