Crypto Exchanges: Insiders Insights on Market Upheavals - TOKEN2049 Singapore 2023

welcome to day two of token 2049 10 000 plus people and all the energy in the world I think are right here here in Singapore last year about a year ago almost exactly Luke and I were on stage talking about The Exchange Market this is of course September of 2022. some of you might have heard that about a month and a half after our panel The Exchange world was rocked with essentially The Well unbundling of FTX and everything since then it's been a very challenging year maybe even a year and a half since the Terra Luna dive but the most important organizations in this space remain as I said last year but Remain the exchanges this is where the trading activity occurs it is the heartbeat of our industry and here on stage are four c-suite officer CEOs principally uh some of the biggest exchanges in the world so I'm Gonna Let each of them introduce themselves starting with Federico hey I'm Federico I'm the CEO at femex we are on Exchange focused on Futures and spot trading in the process of decentralizing we're based between Asia and Milano thank you Edward uh hey everyone this is Edward I'm the general manager for Asana Commercial Business UNIF within the hobby group I think everybody knows us and we just changed to the new name I think we'll talk about that yeah yeah we'll talk about that later yeah yeah and thanks to Media everyone look my name is Luke's Reyes I'm Dutch I'm the chief commercial officer for dairy bit I used to be Panama based for the last few years but I just moved two weeks and go to Dubai where the new HQ is going to be when we get licensed in the Vara the the new regulator there Stefan hi Stefan CEO of bitmax one of the oldest derivatives exchanges in the crypto space out there that's for sure and I'm David Waxman CEO of Waxman the largest communication and strategy organization in the industry so let's start by talking about the state of the market today actually Stefan I want to start with you what do you think the market sentiment is it looks like on the spot side anyway things are mostly flat totally um yeah you if you look at the market so journalist sentiment for me is really wait and see right so a lot of things are upcoming we heard about uh FTX sale of assets right Mount gox will come to Market Bitcoin halving next year ETF still not being approved in the US so stuff will happen no one knows when this means that people who want to get into crypto newly wait and see and I guess this is why we see especially on the spot Market side not so much activity because the first thing somebody does who's interested in crypto he starts with spot trading right first education then spot trading later on derivatives trading so for us for example as a purely focused exchange on derivatives and we always say we're here for trade it's not for investors right so they make money in any Market situation and that's why they're still here that's why we see at least decent volumes in the derivative space I mean everyone loves to have it higher or better or more it's not 2021 again or not anymore but at least everyone can get by yeah 2021 was of course a unique year in a lot of ways right we saw a venture in an all-time high we saw very low interest rates and equities boomed so it didn't kind of matter what industry you're in yeah and crypto certainly succeeded um Federico at femx you guys are working in both principally institutional but also on the retail side is that correct yes yeah okay so can you give us a breakdown of the difference in sentiment between those two different markets right um I would say that for example institutions have two different types of players some are the crypto natives which are used to any sort of crypto winter and then some that came from threadfy and I think those have a lot of them have left the market or took a break for regulatory reason because the market isn't profitable anymore all these kind of reasons retail as well can be divided in these two categories so so from retail I would consider them crypto native since they've been trading since 2017 some people started from bitmax for example and those I think are still sticking around their Capital if you're considering the price of Bitcoin is still like still there unless they got blown up um some other retails you know they joined very late to the party in 2021 so I think those are like not doing so well right now especially because the narratives in 2021 were not I would say very friendly to retail and this Market has been brutal for retail Traders new traders that join kind of late um so I do think that there is still a strong core of Traders in the market but I don't see many new people coming in at the moment even though you think a lot of people may have joined during the 21 boom let's call it and as a result they bought in these are retail spot Traders for example at too high a price and so for them and all their friends sentiment is down would that be an accurate statement yeah they don't even want to hear about crypto like they don't want to like they they don't they don't even think it still exists some of them this is a sobering thing to hear um and a little bit disappointing I've got to say but it sounds like we've got a lot of ground to cover but worth noting it there a bit your volumes are up this year is that correct and it depends how you measure um the volumes are somewhat flatish but measuring contracts and they're growing so we look at volumes two ways either how many options do we trade um or what's the notional value of one option so if Bitcoin trades at 25 000 one option equals 25 000 notional if it trades at sixty thousand it's the same option is uh six top of the price so we're growing a number of contracts so if you look at let's say our our peak in 21 we had open interest of around 20 billion we reached the same open interest last March so banking uncertainty margin 22 or this March this much okay so and the same Peak measured in dollars so notion of value but at half the price so we grew double contracts yeah okay so if you look at the last months we keep on growing so despite the market downtrend and the relative contribution of options to derivatives overall keeps on growing so if you add all the exchanges out there and all the derivatives following futures perps options together we had like uh overall two years ago like one percent market share and that's going to like three percent so in a low full market so people call it the bear Market it's not really bad it's more low volatility sorry can you repeat that in a so in a low volatility market so we look at the the the the right the note is volatility device it's like rock bottom so yes options are priced using volatility so the premium gets high if implied volatility is higher we're looking at rock bottom level so people simply and that's what everyone sees here don't see trading opportunities but there's lots of people out there looking for yields and in in the absence of opportunities in the in a higher interest uh environment you put your money in a bank or alternatively you've trade options so you sell out of the money options for example and you generate yield so despite the lack of trading opportunities the options remain interesting so Traders so Traders are still there on the institutional side right is what we're seeing that money Affairs retail as well what percentage let me ask you this what percentage of your trading activity on the derivative side are from retail versus institutional um more or less I you know I come to that in a minute because we delineate differently we don't say retail or corporate or retail and institutional we say professional and non-professional because for us and unprofessional yeah unprofessional we don't yeah I mean it's like that we don't want to have them but it's quite difficult for them to survive right I mean and coming to to Luke's Point people at our exchange as well they're even going in for basically no volatility trades going in for funding right creating the yield there but you need to know how the exchange work you need to know how the contract works and you need to basically monitor your position on a real-time basis exactly very sophisticated and we look for those sophisticated Traders if I I mean coming up basically you could say we are roughly 60 institutional and 40 professional natural persons right so more like accredited investors they're all people who who use the platform multiple times a day worth noting for the audience here all four of these exchanges represent it on stage do not trade in the United States so everything we're talking about are Global but not us-based at Kobe yeah now htx is correct yeah brand new guys look at his T-shirt it says sorry I'm having to give Tom to change to the new version well you guys are have a mix of different products can you give us a quick rundown of the different products and the different demographics you target with those products all right yeah I mean everybody knows right we used to be the top three uh globally uh we were one of the biggest comprehensive service provider for all the trading markets we have we have sport we have derivatives I mean we are small for option but we provide as well and also we also have the OTC markets where we used to be the biggest one in China So currently we're still targeting on this position it's no change but for our uh our our you know strategy a little bit of balance we because we are Builder project owner and you know uh you know you know company clients Friendly Market so we we put a lot of attentions and efforts into the sport Market I just as uh as a federal just mentioned right so um because currently the Market's not very uh you know very warming or very popular right now so we still think we need to put a lot of efforts to support a new projects only the new projects good project they can bring new users okay so this is an important point I want to go back to this because I want to talk about new products it's gonna be one of the topics of discussion here but also new users how we get them in yeah so since it does seem to be something we're looking for Federico we talked about the possibility of demographics being simply different look we're here in Asia we see 10 000 plus people and as I said earlier all the energy of the world here in Asia are you seeing at your exchange that maybe in different geographies we're seeing different levels of Interest uh yeah for sure um I think naturally some demographics tend to be more interested in trading some some countries for example Germany or Asian people tend to love trading um I do think also that crypto is generating some sort of global digital identities for example people interacting with crypto Twitter are not necessarily all Americans or from the UK most of them are Global uh like they live around the world but present like a digital identity that is international so I think most of our users they come through these distribution channels of like Global crypto Twitter crypto Twitter YouTube uh like these are the channels where a lot of people get onboarded on and I think uh maybe some people underestimate how much retail take a look at social media to to interact with crypto um so I think foreign exchange is important to take a look at this channel to because they are the ones delivering you the the the volume and also like to make sure that the right kind of education content and like the kind of correct information is distributed in this channel so you want to make sure to work with people that have a good reputation that have uh respectable like approaches to trading and all that and that's what we try to do when we interact with these kind of Partners Edward would you agree um that's to say do you think that education I should say is the very first thing you need to do to go and get more retail Traders on board um it's it's very important but you know from our perspective because you know for all majority of derivative you know exchanges they focus on you know more professional Traders right you have to you know have kind of knowledge otherwise you cannot enter into the market for us our strategy is to bring the new user from the sports side first so for that part education is important but you can make it simple you can use wallets you can use a lot of new asset like payment you can use a lot of RW asset to bring them in and then you start to you know trade them up you know we also provide a education uh program but we usually co-work with the third party we don't we don't do the things by ourselves and uh I agree with Frederick I mean you need to have you know kols or opinion leaders to to to train them to tell them how to trade you know more complicated product like derivative options you know in the country all these things but we can start from sport so that's our strategy you mentioned new projects in addition to products yeah being a strategy for Obi a new project because everybody know exchanges the platform business you cover supplies that you cover some demanding sites supplies is definitely the top level assets look at the binance okay or even us we are very serious about new new projects right new tokens right these new tokens have very important value add into the industry bring new users you know uh optimize the technology these things very important only by this kind of new projects to to to how to attract the new users you can make the industry more healthy yeah and but Stefan at your organization at bitmex it seems to be a doubling down or tripling down on core product that you became famous for in the first place what was the Strategic reasoning behind that well actually the realization that regardless of the market situation a company like ours um will succeed if we do three things provide a fitting to Superior technological functionality for derivatives trading which is like what are the contracts but Capital efficiency as well so we went for example to a earlier this year to a 10-minute settlement and funding cycle so that you can basically realize your p l every 10 minutes and even withdraw it then right so just as an example latency is an issue safety security is an issue right so this is a base layer second one is you need to provide user experience yes you have different for API Traders and for well for all I mean the API Traders look for latency and for ease of of connecting right and and good documentation so that they can build up their stuff our professional traders in the space look for our web front end which basically should enable them to trade eye to eye with with institutional players which it does right and then it's about smoothing the user experience for example our customer support is one of the best Out There Our average rate or let's say they uh not reply rate right and solving rates like one hour and it's personal uh customer support right I mean people really get a customer support agent we try to White Glove our top Traders and the third one actually is fun I mean in the end even the professional derivatives Traders they look for kind of fun and this is where we double down just recently a couple of weeks ago we launched our guilds feature which basically is a little bit of fun aspect but it gives for example individual Traders the ability to join forces and act like a trading desk in a larger organization and they even get the benefits of having better VTS getting maker rebates right because they can accumulate and consolidate their volumes they can interact with each other without sitting in one place so it's really the experienced stuff and then I mean yesterday we announced that we go for some prediction markets which are that in the first place is frankly adding to the fun part it's it's it's meant as yeah there is a serious aspect to it but it's a little bit of fun just to add when you trade seriously a little bit of fun in the side of it and technologically it will enable us to later this year go into more Structured Products very interesting I think we should watch that space very closely at derabit of course you started as and have had tremendous volumes on the derivative side but you're expanding I'm going to call it your palette here what's the concept and what's your strategy I I think we are like the old one out here so we are like 85 perhaps 90 institutional and 10 retail so the 10 we have is not average it's more let's say the very high sophisticated ones because if you log into our screen you see the options change you see the Greeks and people are overwhelmed so there's only like a subset of all these people that's why you don't see us on race cars Etc because it's pointless we we target like a niche segment so we're not going to see if there have been on race cars anytime soon no never no never but um so our Target this institutions so what do institutions need so after our last panel it's safety it's security so we we're as I mentioned we're moving to Dubai so we're getting licensed so fully licensed we're getting ISO certified so this October we'll get Azure certified uh shock to audited financials that kind of stuff then on the institution like let's say features we're getting we have three external custodians at the moment so of exchange settlement corporate Global and we're beta testing with five blocks to go live soon and we're in talks with two or three others as well so we offer custody of choice so big institutions so our clients are essentially all the big firms you see on the street trading on the with and what they want and especially if they manage external money is they want to keep this money to make sure that there's no but you said they're all going to be expanding the product set is that correct so it depends on what you call the product set so we we we're launching linear options for linear options like options so that's like a product feature or product expansion we're launching cross collateral which is like more like a feature not really a product we're launching Mass quotes to in order to to enable Market make supports faster reduce latencies increase performance all that stuff um we're expanding so we're expanding on like like 10 different levels but the core focus is getting more institutions in uh to enable our growth which benefits let's say the 10 15 retail because all the features we bring they are like semi-pros they like the same stuff because they might be employed by one of them so those are the people that trade on there at femx are you how are you preparing for what might be the next Bull Run of course in April of next year we have of the having at least that's when it's anticipated and typically about six months after that we see some sort of price or at least volume activity right what are you doing at your firm right um we are in the process of strengthening our community and basically empowering people to build their digital identity within our exchange so through our soap bound token so we are creating some sort of new approach for Traders to feel like they are at home within the exchange we're lining up to give up to 1000 BTC to the holders of these tokens to encourage them to basically uh take part into the creation of this digital identity and we want to create like a community where people can like have fun trading in a social way similarly to what bitmax did with the troll box or what some Discord channels do with like the challenges and all that we think that trading is naturally some sort of social activity in the sense that people love talking about it comparing competing so for us we're trying to Foster these competition this healthy competition as much as possible and keep people engaged with new products new listings everything that is current people talk about we want to have it on the on the exchange so that when the Bull Run comes the users are already there and the volume is going to come as a consequence historically there's always been frenetic activity on trading floors this is true at equities derivatives anywhere um my brother formerly working on the New York Stock Exchange floor will tell you exactly that but Edward you know what types of new products do you think your users are going to be most interested in um and when it's not those products but what about differentiators I hear customer support and I've got to tell you that means a lot to me having had to deal with this before what what's phobia doing to make sure or htx to make sure that your customers are satisfied yeah yeah I mean before that I need to expand the name the meaning of the XTX I actually have three meaning behind number one is you know you guys you guys know we do the uh the biggest MMA case last year for ourselves so so the trunk group uh you know have the uh merge our exchange So currently it's a big group so we have we have the little run protocols we have stable coin business so we also have leg changes actually you have two we have I will have hobby I also have the pollen X so the htx means the hobby plus Trump plus exchange that's number one number two uh we have the platform token called HT so it's a HD exchange which everybody's clear about our platform token and number three is for just as uh Stefan just mentioned so I would like dinosaur you know we both are having a dinosaur so we operate the exchange for over 10 years it actually is that it's the 10 year anniversary yesterday for us so it's a 10x exchange so so that's a three minute hands I think it's a very meaningful rebranding uh and also it's uh it's better for everybody to to you know easily uh to to pronounce us because you know for hobby used to be a very Chinese pinging pronunciation right so it's easy for Chinese guy but not easy for you know foreigners sure but now it's it's everything is more International but we still keep the uh the Chinese character who will be for for for Chinese users if they like okay that's number one number two for us our positioning a little bit different from the bank maybe a film mix I think everyone has very unique position and a very clear strategy you are I mean perfect so focus on derivative and professional Traders are there will be focused on the institution professional Trader options a filmmakers focus on Community Care without channel drivens for us we we position ourselves as our comprehensive platform easy for you know uh you know zero knowledge user to enter the market because at the end at the end of the day you need to have someone to become the bridge between the web to user to Webster that's our that's our responsibility so that's why we provide a very comprehensive Market easy for everyone to uh you know uh deposit the money the challenges that you face in trying to become the or is it boiling in the ocean what's the challenge I should say in serving all these different groups at the same time um yeah I mean the challenge is definitely you know how to balance the internal resource because you know exchange operations always are very comprehensive very complicated job I mean it's profitable but it's very kind duplicate job you have to have very strong R D team you have a very strong wallet team risk control team security team like us we have zero hiking cases in the past 10 years it's difficult it's really you know make you very very hard working you have very solid team you know 24 hour to cover it but I mean it's it's very complicated you have to balance all these results to cover different business lines so sometimes to be found like we are not strong in everywhere but we are very top level for majority of the the products we provide but for us as our precisioning we try to solve all the mass adapter Mass retail users who have to provide uh as easy as possible for all these retail users and zero knowledge Trader who may have interest to enter the crypto space but they haven't traded yet before so that's why we provide these you know product metrics uh sport of uh you know uh derivative you know fear channels o2s or P2P uh peer-to-peer Market yeah some challenge I'm challenging uh Endeavors you have over there at Hobie htx um I actually want to double down on one thing you said in particular these are sophisticated organizations so Stefan you're the CEO of vitmix it means you're responsible for a heck of a lot all these different teams Security customer support what would you say is the type of thing that maybe the audience doesn't know that under the hood working at an exchange or leading exchange is a great challenge it is the reliability because your platform needs to work you said it like 24 7. it's real time 24 7. you need to have a very mundane things like page duties organized right people need to stay alert all the day if there is an incident you need to react basically immediately because otherwise you will lose the trust of the customers right on the Traders and they want to know what's going on you need to communicate so I I'd say it's it's basically this 20 I mean it's the best fun of it but it's a 24 7 cycle right no holidays no nothing right I mean you never close down your platform for I mean for maintenance sometimes for an hour or so but even that is already something difficult people get probably frustrated Federico do you sleep uh I try yeah sometimes um I think crypto is like the market is 24 7. so every morning you have to catch up with something um when we started off in 2019 you know every morning there is a crisis or something you have to fix something fast to get rid of but once the organization grows a little bit it's more stable you can trust the people to delegate where people around the world so we cover every time zone so there's always someone available to check if anything is happening um so I think like all of these extensions are basically the same setup in which you are covered 24 7 customer support in person responding to to inquiries now the load for customer support is a bit lower with the market being like this so I think the users are getting a very good experience uh trading at the moment and exchanges are much better much better liquidity um the the listings are faster I think the competition between exchanges have been very positive in that regard in which we pushed each other to really have comprehensive and efficient products yes and I would say it's quite sophisticated products too Luke uh maybe you could give us a quick rundown on kind of how things have progressed over time I know I'm asking kind of a more challenging question but from the time you found it until today to what extent has the product set in the platform improved we we were founded in 16 or first straight in 16 so we started out in in 14 um what changed I think when I joined I wasn't uh there from day one I joined in 19 we were 20 people and we had a decent market share activity already but we were 20 people so did you sleep we we it was a different day and age because then stuff happened the the platforms none of us were like perfect so platform outages Etc occurred more frequently and problems we weren't able to solve like that so over time everything changed so we have people like internal audit Enterprise risk all that stuff we didn't have back then so now it's it's policies we have 50 policies we have to adhere to if you if you're changing something in production it has to be signed off by multiple people it has to be tested according to all these plans in in 19 if we had a fix or something we we released it ASAP and sometimes that solved the problem and created another one right and that kind of stuff is not no longer happening so we we live in a much more contained area right now is that better on the one hand yes it's better but it reduces flexibility but I think in order to grow in order to get like the billions of dollars of potential asset managers trading trading firms structure product providers they want this kind of stuff so for us as mentioned before we focus on the institutional side this all of this has to be done to increase quality and to increase governance to increase all of that stuff so it's it's an ongoing Trend and I think in a few years from now and there will there won't be a list of 100 exchanges there will be less exchanges each one have their own Focus but there won't be a hundred unregulated zero cables it's not going to happen The Regulators are going to step in and all of us that will be there five years from now have to adhere to some of these we're not saying that all of us will get become the another copy of coinbase but we will need to get stuff organized and that's what we're focusing on Stefan yeah I I'd like to jump into that because it resonates with with our experience quite a lot but this experience was even a determining factor in ourselves re-pivoting I totally agree with you on the general level but there are then differences right I mean I come I wouldn't say I come from but I have spent a lot of time in traffic what actually the difficulty is if you're overwhelmed with policies that don't talk to each other you create more harm than you create benefits because it will slow you down it will not harm you that's not true it increases let's say what what all of this does is it reduces volatility of your performance but it reduces the speed on which you can adapt we are basically I mean if you look at our name bitmax originally stand for Bitcoin Mercantile Exchange we still are more on the Bitcoin native part right I mean that you see even in our product if you look at tether margin contracts we are not I mean our Market check on up like yours but but not as good if you look at Bitcoin margin contracts in the derivative space we're still number two in the space right and we are pretty much loved by this community so not saying that you shouldn't get regulated no no you should adhere to all the rules and regulations out there but every exchange need to make sure that they don't make a paper exercise out of that this is why we double down on derivatives because we thought like no we are not in a position to build up a an organization that consists of thousands of people catering for spot market for OTC brokerage for custody for derivatives for Education Etc because it requires a completely different organization and we wanted to stay Nimble and humble so basically we're a quite small organization nowadays with around 130 people globally but very efficient yes wow that's and how big is the htx group at this point uh for for each part how many people at this point in htx for H takes oh we have around 900 people we used to maximum we used to have uh uh 2500 people before but uh you know we do the MAA we do the restructure we also to be finally we do some layoff uh in the last quarter for in this quarter one to just to save the cost to you know to to conquer the winter season so currently we have around 900 people we think is a nicer size for us yeah yep um I want to ask you one more thing Edward so at as we kind of get closer to the end of the session 2024 is around the corner as I mentioned uh you know we have possibly the having possibly the ETF again what does Kobe doing what is HDX doing right now to prepare for next year oh yeah we we are very focused right now our strategy number one we definitely focus on the Apec region that's our strong Market that's number one number two we uh steel position hours as a very very friendly comprehensive market for all the zero knowledge users no matter for uh Traders or retail clients number two number three our key strategy is to focus on the new projects new assets that's our main strategy so as to continuously bring the the user to us for example we we take over the apollon X operation since March and our Dau grow five times uh in the past six months so just buy this kind of a strategy so we'll focus on all the new and high high quality projects and then only by this we can create very strong liquidity and then we can build these projects and level them up to the better products which makes and the Derby they are operating I think that's the you know the way how we call work so that's why I also manage the Venture arm we we are I want I think most friendly exchange for all the builders any early stage projects we support no worry what's your background uh how much to your product is if you have a good idea you have a good responsibility you want to help the industry growth we support we have incubation program we have hundreds of millions you know Venture uh funding to support the projects we invest around 10 to 15 price already for the past six months and we're trying to invest more and we list over 100 token just within this season I mean within under the group level but for hobby we pick up the top level quality of the projects like the latest product like maybe work coin or maybe you know uniboats we are one of the earliest of exchange to uh to discover them and you know to listen to that everybody can trade so that's how we're positioning for 2024 and we are positive on that because currently it's bear market so the liquidity is a rather low but if you go back if you recover as just Stephen mentioned ETF all these you know microeconomics condition better then we think the liquidity will be strong better and hopefully yes yeah Federico I want to ask you kind of a year from today if we're on this panel once again what do you think are going to be the themes for exchanges in the latter half of 2024.

right um we personally are in the process of decentralizing so we are sharing our growth Revenue governance by our token so I think more exchanges will be hybrid between the two I see more people are actually being getting into crypto almost from from uh like instead of starting from Bitcoin or ethereum they start maybe from friend Tech or from unibot or something so I think the the landscape of users will be much different and I think exchanges would be even more flexible than they are now in capturing these new users I think exchange still will be at the Forefront for onboarding users simply because uh the the ux is the best one but I think there will be more hybrid products in the market so Steph do you agree do you think this is going to be more of a hybrid decks than centralized exchange world yes of course I mean and bitmax from our founding ethos basically is very much on a decentralized space if you look at our Founders they're active in that space as well we have no issue with decentralized exchanges whatsoever I would even personally believe that they will grow faster than the centralized exchanges because they come from a lower level and actually crypto web 3 DLT technology is about decentralization so if we wouldn't see growth in that I would be rather concerned right but this brings new business opportunities for ourselves as well because you go decentralized if you really know the protocol if you want to participate in governance decisions etc etc if you're not in for it you you probably end up with a centralized exchange and for Trends I would love to see next year Bitcoin margin interest rate derivatives or even even Equity derivatives just in the overall broader Market because that's the beauty how you combine the crypto native world with more threat fire investment activity and what do you think Luke 20 24 trends so for us let's say 20 20 Trends to 2021 Trends doesn't really matter so he defies some of the nft stuff all that stuff didn't really impact us or we didn't really engage it for us it's about creating liquidity in liquid tokens and tokens being beats in East for sure but potentially altcoins so if whatever the trend might be AI you name it if these tokens become successful become large caps there's a need for a proper liquidity and derivatives and that's what we would focus on so not so much in becoming a new decentralized exchange or launching the data with dogs or whatever if the trend becomes tangible by means of a successful liquid token which could be anything we'll create derivatives on those and that's our gateway to those to those tokens what you're saying as in in terms of margin across collateral I think that's again looking at the institutional possibilities there's room for traditional needs to be merged with the crypto space for example treasuries um we're looking at a yield environment why don't you deposit your treasury somewhere and will able it will be well I think if you talk about real world assets on the next panel um that we're all together because I do believe that could be a trend but in any event we've essentially reached time but I want to go and make sure the audience understands today we heard from four different exchange CEOs and ccos hearing four completely different perspectives but as you hear it here we have now sophisticated products at a sophisticated time people are preparing for a potential uh growth in a bull market next year and it seems like Traders are the ones who have most won out in this environment thanks again