DeFi Panel: Mass adoption, infrastructure, public goods

we have a really exciting panel today um I know some of these people personally they're really really cool people um we'll be talking about Mass adoption and the infrastructure for public goods and we all know why we're here we're all here to make the world a better place but also make some money in the end cuz we all have to live at the end of the day right um so we'll be now introducing all your exciting guests today I'll be introducing Angus from Chronicle please come to the stage woo we have artam from octant please come to the stage uh we also have Nikolai uh the web 3 R&D uh engineer please come to the stage I guess that's me oh is that you okay and then we have yakob founder of redstone and then you have your amazing moderator yakob please come to the stage and I hope you enjoyed this fascinating panel because these are some really smart people so thank you very much one two yeah U thank you stash for nice presentation um happy to be here guys uh how's been how the day was for you so far are you okay amazing yeah awake awake because last night was crazy right okay nice to see you everybody hello guys a pleasure to be a moderator of this uh panel uh the name of this panel is a defi panel uh with this uh addition of mass adoption infrastructure public goods okay so this is what we going to talk for about next hour okay so guys pleasure pleasure to be here um I'm happy to to moderate it I do represent being crypto which is a media platform we are partnering the the event uh so um let's start with um some of the questions that we going to warm that going to warm us up uh we had um some conversations guys uh about defy the present state of it about um Gates uh ideas how can the uh Mass adoption happen how can people get more get more Comfort get more um adjusted uh to the to the to our ecosystem web 3 uh blockchain and all beautiful things that are happening but there are SKT there are skirt um I've just finished my presentation about um missing losing trust in web 3 why people uh are disappointed where people are um are feeling um cheated or uh or uh losing trust basically to us and it's really hard for them to go back and Trust again so um you have your own um views from AI from technology from product development from beautiful ideas that can that can change it so I would like to start with um niola um first question would be um about this Mass adoption what do you think um which uh components components of defi or generally web 3 it could help to facilate to to bring people to our ecosystem how we can allow this Mass adaption to happen uh you talked about onboarding and interface could you like start a conversation without telling your your Insight on this yeah uh you hear me yeah okay thanks for having me first of all uh so basically I think uh the main problem with a with a current Mass adoption is the the user experience and uh a lot of painful processes like new users have to go through in order to to use apps seamlessly uh we feel that like it's been a while since web 3 started and uh basically people who are in the space for a while they're getting being used to manage multiple wallets multiple accounts uh switch networks uh deal with like rpcs chain IDs Etc but uh to get the retail into the crypto I think that's that's not doable right because uh if I'm using some web to app like I I don't have to know if it's like on AWS or gcp or something else and I think you know in crypto we're we're considering like it's normal but uh It Isn't So that that's my my main take is you know we need to make easier and simpler onboarding of retail to the web tree and they shouldn't know anything except what they actually want to do right so they they shouldn't be dealing with like you know managing the keys uh keeping the SE phrases etc etc because those are all friction points which are requiring prior knowledge and understanding of some Concepts which are definitely not something which everybody should know about yeah okay thank you guys please go on if you have anything to add to that question or comment what just Nicholas said we can open the conversation right now I uh hi everyone Hi um I sort of agree um with that initial aspect um for me it really boils down to the um sort of innate characteristics of crypto right of um blockchain technology that effectively is the rails that all this is built on that tokens exist on um and that all the value where all the value effectively lives um and what I mean by that is that you have you know these characteristics of like immutability and um self- custody um and all of that is what makes blockchain and crypto so powerful and so um new and different but it's also the S it's sort of its downfall when it comes to mass adoption and when it comes to the normies let's say um people who haven't taken the time to uh educate themselves and understand it and understand the real risks um of these great opportunities right because it's it's it's sort of a ying and yang thing for me right with with great opportunity also comes great risk um if you don't know how to um manage it properly so there's a lot to unpack I think uh Nikolai was it um Nicola ncol yeah what Nicolai was talking about with regards to like the user experience that's a big part of it um but we affect and I'm not going to go into like account abstraction and all the technical things that we can do to fix this but effectively we do need to abstract away those elements that I just talked about there in some sort of way which makes the whole sort of experience of uh using crypto and blockchain um easy and also like supported you know like one of the great things about web 2 products and technological products that you can use today is you know you can reach out to technical support or customer service if something goes wrong and generally you know they can roll things back or they can help you out or they can fix it even with the bank is the same situation right um and this is sort of part of the issue that we have with crypto is that um you you you know again because of these innate characteristics which are also great opportunities for the right people of self- custody and things um immutability you can't do this right um and I know account abstraction has been talked a lot about a way to to get around this um so for me we need to get to a point where we strike a finer balance between the sort of pure characteristics um that led to the initial excitement and um growth of crypto and blockchain um and something that's a bit more consumer friendly right I see those as two opposite ends of the scale and we need to strike a fin a balance I think you've got um you you've got a number of examples of people going through this now um and I I think that's the if we talk about where are we in the cycle I think that's where we are in the cycle I think we're at the point now where actually it's really strange and a bit of a struggle and this is complete conjecture I mean it it's probably not true but it's just sort of the way I see it um is that we're at this point of the cycle now where we're kind of cannibalizing the original Builders the cipher fun the people who who were here in the early days and and and got us here to where we are now and by going after the the the masses if you like um Mass adoption what we here to talk about right now we we're sort of cannibalizing those those that original crowd because the the needs um and the values of of both of these two communities don't necessarily align um and a lot of that is related to the technical limitations that I I just talked about of this um of cryptocurrencies right and and blockchain so um you're seeing people go through this um a good example is around like regulation um so a lot of uh stable coin companies and things um I'm from Chronicle um we're an oracle provider we work with a lot of different stable coins uh some of you all know we were uh born out of the madow ecosystem we were originally invented there to as the first Oracle to build D and D is a great example of of you know something recently which where you seeing Sky you know formerly known as maker transition their whole ethos and projects and values to something that is more perhaps set up for the future like more um aligned with mass adoption and that goes on you know that goes across every level from the Rebrand and and and making everything more simple and easy to understand and um uh yeah sort of um but also the way that they're they they've they've uh um brought out usds right this this new stable coin which is actually more regulatory compliant than D that was sort of the limitation of D and now what you've got is is Sky sort of sitting in the middle like strugling both of these communities where they're saying hey we still got Dy which was going to be pure Dy effectively and I think that's actually a really good name in in a way from Runa because it speaks to what what I'm sort of explaining here is that D is going to be for the purists D is going to be for the for the cipher funks D is going to be for people who are worried about centralization who are worried about um you know mutability people being able to freeze their Savings in stable coins because that's sort of the the idea with Dy right Dy is immutable you can't freeze Dy if you have if you make a few million off a meme coin and you put it in die then you know that's safe right no one can no one can touch it but if you have it in usdc um even usdt I think as well you know they retain the power to freeze that if for some reason right so it's at risk yep um andus thank you for your Insight and I think that finding this sweet spot between the ideal of web 3 and blockchain of self custody cyber funs and private keys and between um Regular ulations and how can we actually give that responsibility to some third parties right that's the key thing uh to not jeopardize the ideas of of our industry um yakob or Al do you have any thoughts on that you would like to continue uh yeah I'd like to Echo what you just said um I think like the key for me um is where we do make tradeoffs right so I like what you said about account obstruction and I think this is right now a very important level of the development in the space and I think that's the level where we should focus on to bring more users and at the same time make sure that the like the uh underlying level St stays true to its values and it's like right now what is happening with d I'm kind of a little bit concerned about this I understand what what they doing they are trying to like create Mass adoption and actually like uh a month or a couple weeks before they announced Kai there was like a Twitter space between Ava and the maker Dow when they were talking about like joining forces and kind of announcing the future announcements it's not clear for me exactly how they going to partner what exactly they're going to do but it seems that something is coming and sky is the first step and they also say said this um the founder of Mark maker da said this phrase on this Twitter uh spaces that we all grow up and we understand that we need to make tradeoffs and that's true but also there's like Devil in the details right once we have the usds now and we have this compliant mechanism and we are saying that D still stays a part of the ecosystem how it's going to look like in five years from now like there's a there is a world where the regulatory framework will say USD say is Good Die is bad I'm not saying this is going to happen but if there were like this original layer that would stay true to its value that's going to be uh immutable non upgradable nonfreezable by an actor we would be sure that we have the new rails that are not controlled by the same actor because otherwise we just replicating the same system on a different technology and that's that's like kind my main concern and I do believe we need to create a good value proposition for the normies for the new people who come on board but do it on the right level of the technological stack okay thank you very much um uh yob you haven't been talking about that what's what's your what's your thought about that from more like it perspective is it like possible from like programming that kind of stuff how do you see that or please comment okay so let me maybe refer to to my uh co-panelist so I totally agree with the usability that's something we need to tackle and I think that was like a big step forward this the stable coins and definitely the evolution of stable coins like example I'm from Redstone we we are an oracle company so we help to also price stable coins we work with EA that's also amazing example like how can you bring a pretty complex Financial product like arbitraging on options and packageing in a way that let's say like a normal user Mass user can invest into and participate in the yeld so that was let's say another step of evolution if we can make this complex product actually uh able to be offered to to normal users in the form of stable coins but also what I'm seeing is is the fact that I used to be personal dig I love like for digit it's like amazing if you can invest some crazy mem coin and then enjoy this great health opportunity but I think the uh let's say the capacity and the population of let's say so risk accepting uh users is limited and we used to work live in this crypto bubble but there are like people who would love to use let's say more traditional product like someone that is representing a tokenized bond with some stability guarantees Etc and we working at Redstone we are seeing more and more inflow of product that are linked to the real world so tokenized Ste builds for example which are like super easy to be bought anywhere in the world and let you park some of the yel gather from Defi and keep it relatively safe so I think we'll be seeing more and more real word product that are also reflected in crypto and that are let's say understood and digestable for for non normal users um thank you for that um talking about usability and the thing that attract people to web3 or defi um in particularly is um staking and would you um would you kindly Jacob continue and tell us how do you see that how um staking and taking things that people actually come get into it to get these yields uh can be um driven forward what's the future of it in your view um how can we um how can we make it sustainable right those system that somehow simply collapse under their own uh weight yeah I think I think it's a great question because if you look at the current landscape on defi the the largest project is is liquid Stak in slido basically the the third largest is igen so they took the the echosystem by storm and the second largest other got more than 50% of tvl locked in staking or reaking so basically the vast majority of Def fate currently is linked to that type of products and it's a especially raking it's a pretty novel concept and we are still trying to test the water like how sustainable is that and it's also like an example how crypto becomes much more sophisticated because risk taking is basically like a structur product when you are deploying Capital to different avss and each AVS got their own risk profile own slashing condition Etc so for example for us at Redstone is just Rises the bar of providing more fine grain data like how can you price a product that is basically a combination of 30 protocols like how can you see like how risky is it to actually put your money in the LRT when let's say few per percent of that could be slashed so it's going to be more interesting definitely the the space of Def is progressing but also creates this amazing opportunities to generate more yal from more projects thank you um guys would you like to comment on staking do you still think that this is like um a game CH changer that has been here like two 3 four years ago uh are people still attracted by it or how how can you see the future of of it in your own like perspective um I think Sten is still quite an important part of our infrastructure um I'm from Golden foundation for example we're using Sten to fund public goods and um there are more and more protocols like St liquid staking protocols appearing on ethereum and still like people doing a lot of solo staking new projects I think there Yer about like web 3 pi and some other projects that allow people to run stake in operations at home um so I think like the the if we're talking about proof of stake on a fium taking mechanism I think it's the actual one of the actual mechanism that generates True Value in the system because this capital is used as a collateral to secure the network that then allows everybody to run operations on top of this so I I don't think we're going anywhere from staking right now but at the same time there is like risks associated with this and especially like with with liquid staking token and raking mechanisms and it's not like black and white and I think there's a spectrum and it's also like requires a lot of expertise to look into where it goes because there's a world where um this restak and tokens are put into a let's say not very secure uh Network which risks losing the underlying collateral like I'm going now into more like a raking part but um I think we we need to be careful with this as well to not bring more um uh association with the space with like losing capital and potential risks because people already as you mentioned in the beginning look at the crypto space with a lot of concerns and especially right now I think crypto is one at one of its lowest points of trust by Society um so yeah trying to stay on the on the main level and experiment slowly with the new technologies you guys want to there there's sort of two things that really stand out to me about staking um the first is sort of how how does it appeal to let's call them consumer or users individual people and the second is like how is this technologically beneficial to us as Builders um now I think from the users perspective staking is all about yield right um I think jaob just touched on it quite nicely about how the different reaking products and liquid staking products and everything else allows you to create more yield right which is great but it also creates more complexity so right so if we go back to the original point that we discussed is you know know how does this stuff appeal to Everyday People to users to um individuals complexity is is a is um the opposite of of what they want from from this sort of thing um when when when if you think about how you're used to getting yield as a um as an individual in in web 2 you put money in an account and you get paid an interest rate every month right um and the interest rate is very transparent um quite often the banks will tell you ahead of time if they're raising it if they're in it um there's there's lots of products sort of available and then depending on your on your risk um profile you can obviously ratchet that up and go from riskier versions of yield um uh or you can you know stay with the the least risky which of course is things like interest um interest only bank accounts and things um so I think you know from a staking point of view therefore the most successful staking um opportunities for end users is actually going to be through third parties like centralized exchanges right so where they're able to like put a wrapper around it um and sort of offer more protections and more Simplicity to the user where literally it's just like like I think about the binance earn program for example um something that I used to be a user of before the UK got um attacked by uh by um everyone uh and and and sort of blocked us from from these things based on regulation um and it was so simple for me because you know I kept a lot of my assets um on a centralized exchange um because again uh I'm I'm not like a super Cipher Funk kind of guy um I I believe that there's limited risk in in keeping assets on large centralized exchanges um although you could argue FTX is is a good example of why that's not true um but but but you know even that let's let's you know let's let's let's sort of dissect that even that decision was based on Simplicity right I wanted Simplicity I wanted to be able to just liquidate in a in a second if I needed to I wanted to be able to get yield right while I just keep them there in the same place and I wanted someone else to to generate that yield for me even if that yield was half a percent or 1% less than what I could get elsewhere if I took that under self- custody and took on the extra risk and extra complexity myself so I think the future of staking for users is going to be around these sort of third parties and rappers as as as actually centralized entities in it which is kind of interesting because staking is obviously supposed to be about decentralization and and things um that's not bad for staking and liquid staking and reaking and stuff all it means is that you're probably going to have large uh uh fewer uh entities partaking in it but with larger um amounts of capital um or larger amounts of tokens um then the second part is about technology and how it sort of enables things and again it's it's sort of got this weird um sort of uh not sure what the word is but it's like um it detracts from its like the original values of staking right which again is supposed to be about decentralization about distribution um because basically like liquid staking and reaking is there to um enable decentralization in some sort of way right like it allows you to strap decentralization um so that you know your protocol your app whatever that that's based on some form of like consensus mechanism um Can can like effectively like spin up decentralization very quickly like spin up a decentralized um node system or decentralized um governance system or whatever very quickly but then so many of these protocols and apps let's take oracles for example you know there's there's a number of Articles exploring this I think actually Redstone are exploring this where you know they want to use Liquid reaking as a way to bootstrap uh no decentralization uh no decentralization is really really important for Oracle networks because it means that effectively you can't just report whatever you want um as an oracle Network um and obviously therefore potenti potentially manipulate what the the uh the the value is that the Oracle reports but you know whether it's oracles or another form of protocol um plugging in this sort of like liquid reaking technological solution to bootstrap decentralization only really works if the rest of the protocol is also decentralized right because at some point there is there's some point of of centralization in there some some weakness some bottleneck which um can be exploited either by the company itself which in most cases is obviously like not in their interest to do but then it's the question of what happens if the company's Ops operations you know get um get um uh violated right get get hacked then it's like the hacker is in control of the company and the company can then do so decentralization really at it's at at its heart as a technological solution is supposed to be about protecting users companies everyone from that eventuality but really the truth is that so many people just use it as a marketing tool right to say oh look we're decentralized now because we're using this liquid reaking or whatever else when really like if you dig into the protocol and you dig into the the the rest of the stack you're like oh no wait there's Point centralization here and here and here and actually only like this top part of the stack is decentralized but you go further down and there's there's always a weakness in there somewhere so um for as a technological solution reaking we need to like get to a point where it is actually um yeah uh employed across every level layer of the stack if we want to really achieve what it's there to do in my opinion thank you very much um uh niola would you like to add to staking anything or can we go on to another question um I can basically just add a add a quick thing I agree with the most of the things being said uh my main uh my main thought here is uh that we need uh like you know users are going to always go where there is the biggest yield and right that's what everybody is searching for and I think uh in a way like you know liquid staken is uh attractive but uh definitely not attractive enough in terms of like their much higher yield opportunities right now in the in the web 3 uh of course usually the the bigger yield is the the bigger is risk which is kind of which I feel crypto people are like used to go very high risk unfortunately and uh don't think much about the about the assets but uh interesting angle I wanted to to mention which is basically adding adding on top of the of the staking is uh and and this what what was mentioned with the with the tax experience is like uh I feel that people need still to get to an easy way to manage their assets and make sure all their like Idol capital is basically placed somewhere else to to generate additional yield which is another kind of concern and basically an opportunity as well I seen the web tree which we can build on and uh deliver Solutions where basically we can make sure that users capital is always efficient rather than like you know just being guid for certain reasons okay perfect thank you um guys will you talk about staking and how can individual users uh benefit um the user the uh the easier the user experiences the better right we talked about that Simplicity that is a key to introduce it to the masses right but let's um wrap our heads around an idea that maybe we as a sector as defy um web 3 can serve to higher purpose and through that also gain visibility uh you you mentioned uh that some of these yields or some mechanisms can be used for public goods right um I know that you talked about that during your presentation could you give us your like small overview how can like the public life benefit not just us individuals but how can we drive that stream of yields or maybe um Financial products to enhance the public sector uh yeah thank you so uh just to like high level overview um uh from Goen Foundation we STI in 100,000 e which is like substantial capital and the yield that is generated from that uh Capital we not just like take back but we created a mechanism called octant it's a project um where we fund public goods but we not only fund public goods we also reward users particip participating participating of thank you um rewards users for participating in the system and um our mission is to balance this so we are trying to find balance by between rewarding users and fund public goods and so uh again going back to the uh level of trust in creating utility and better usability in the system uh we believe that um blockchain as a technology can serve uh better better people and we not only can use defy to enrich individuals which is definitely something that is required and people as was said before uh usually go for high yield which is understandable also like during my presentation I said like this space has a lot of teion which is not a bad thing it's just the results of like uh economical systemic changes that um leads people to turn into highrisk opportunities to get some returns and like put food on the table or buy a house or start a family and and at the same time like if we just play Zero some games we're probably not going to get anywhere take into account all the global challenges we're facing right now and like we all see that and think about whether it's Wars or climate change or even like smaller challenges in the space about funding open Source software for example like ethereum as the like ethereum protocol doesn't have a sustainability mechanism right so it's mostly funded by AUM Foundation or some other foundations or donations and defi protocols as it happens right now which is great they can charge a fee and they create the uh the uh Dows and they can fund themselves so we need to find some kind of Common Ground how we fund this projects so there is one the recipients of file funding usually they're the top recipient they usually receive around 50 or 40 E every round uh called prodical Guild so protocol Guild is a product created to fund uh ethereum core protocol developer researchers and QA and so what we're doing with with Octon right now on the next iteration we create an protocol that will allow different defi protocols volts and staken uh uh staking liquid staking protocols to fund uh and funnel part of that yield toward Octan protocol so it's going to be a mechanism that will allow to take a part of the yield accumulate in certain volts and give uh the power to the users who contribute to that to choose where it actually goes what project is going to get funded but I think like the the key idea of this project is that the big players like Goen Foundation who have substantial fund funding should play a role in this and that's like what we're doing we kind of like uh driving this forward with our B capital and we took into some other projects that we call dragons as as I was saying in my presentation because dragons they sit on a pile of gold and uh we don't think that dragons should just sit on a pile of gold we think that this Capital should be used in a better way but also most of these dragons who have substantial Capital they want their ecosystems to grow and one of the good ways to do that is to fund Builders fund public goods projects that can actually create some impact and kick back and and reach the ecosystem yes thank you very much I believe that a beautiful idea and maybe a next big narrative that we can build around our sector to attract more people and contribute to the greater good uh gentlemen any opinions on that any comments would you like to to say to that to that ideal of getting outside of our own private benefit and go go beyond it public goods are good public goods are good perfect amen okay yes jaob sure so congrats to oant it's an amazing idea and I think it's great to build while building a new Financial system not to repeat all of the foundation of the old previous one which was like based on the grid only and the efficiency so the fact that we are sharing something is amazing so At Redstone for example we are sharing the data so all of the data that was ever produced by our Oracle is like publicly available which we heard is is stupid because it's data over value for some let's say traders to run models mods I believe it's like for us it was amazing tool of transparency accountability anyone check how we work what's the quality Etc and if they find it useful to build a new product that's great so it work well and I think it's it will be nice to see let's say more initiative when you share something uh apart from let's say consuming value um I I'd like to add one more thing there is one uh a member like of let's say public good space that wrote an article recently where he compared the budgets of the countries in the world and how much like web 3 like funded public goods and the all uh amount of funding over over all time is twice smaller than the smallest country in the world so just to compare where we are but there are like other um verticals that we can look at and one of those verticals is cost right and if you look at the Modern like public goods funding and charity uh the cost is extremely high sometimes it's like 50% of the money that is coming to Charities and mechanisms to fund public goods consum consumed by those mechanism themselves so the transparency mutability and lower costs of systems that we're building can potentially like allow to uh bring more value to projects that actually need this and I believe that's one of the advantages that we have long term this is thanks to our technology and skipping many middlemen right perfect um thank you guys uh this basically um finishes my set of questions here but I would like to give a voice to our beautiful a audience that we are actually here for you so uh we are we got around 15 minutes stash would you help me to like spread the microphone if anybody of you have any question to one or all of our panelists this is the moment when we can all talk go ahead hey thanks a lot uh it was really interesting to listen to your debate uh my name is Ferris and I represent crypto Malta it's the crypto community in Malta and we have a lot of um uh what did you call them normies like uh beginners we try to onboard them and educate them but looking at the like not recent development but the development of the let's say past four or five years in defi space I really don't know what to tell them anymore it's it's become such a jungle and actually it has been become much more complex than it used to be it's no longer that you just go to Ava and you use one protocol you stake you restake you liquid stake you get rocked you like whole exchanges that disappear there's so much danger what to tell them that's my question what do you suggest like to tell those normies those beginners to start I don't want to abstract everything away from them I want them to be like responsible and have their own private keys but like how to how to help them to get started uh my I have a question back you you can ask them why they're interested in crypto in the first place cuz like um I think like everybody comes to crypto for some reason and if you try to onboard users if they're interested in financial product and they're looking into crypto either they're looking for higher returns higher yield or they looking for new technology so I guess my my my suggestion is to understand what they're looking for and usually like this journey is not just a straight line there are risks but it's also very interesting maybe some people like in interested in uh building on top of this creating a business on top of this so I guess like look exactly what they're looking for and then uh lead them there uh so basically it's a it's a good question and uh I I don't have exact answer but I think I have a solution which is something we have to to to go over and uh in my opinion it's uh the things as I mentioned previously are to to spread at a moment and uh exactly that like you don't know where to start you don't know where to go if you want to Ono a single user it's there's a lot of painful processes especially if it's not a technical person right and I guess we can all agree here that like 99% of the people who are joining crypto are here to to make some money I mean that that that that's a reality and uh we we're thinking and uh basically my main thing my main main take of those things is uh that we need to go towards something which is called more like a chain abstraction and uh building a layer above everything else where we can abstract not only like like wallet abstraction is good for some stuff but uh definitely not enough still and our thoughts are going towards more like chain abstraction and that's something which probably will be much easier like users should be able to come to a like call it call it a single UI or or like a platform where they can see all the all the yields all the stuff uh maybe some like you know risk assessments of you know protocols Etc but that kind of thing where they get like more more something like onstop shop for most of the defi stuff rather than being like Oh yeah I like I mean dbank right now right Aggregates your portfolio so say you use your one wallet like multichain you can see where your assets are but if you want to collect them all it's it's painful process you need like gas stocking on each chain uh like cross chain Bridges blah blah which is super painful in my opinion and uh exactly this two to Ono masses to crypto and even even for them to build on we need to give them more like a tax exper experience where if if you go which was previously mentioned if you go to binance right you can just say oh yeah I want a liquid stake you know two two bottons and you're in or you want to do this you want to do that and if you want to go more decentralized approach which definitely we're all working towards we need to give more aggregated and abstracted layer to the users so they can get easier to to the web tree which is I I still think the the main take we need to to get towards because I worked with I'm I'm a builder and I work with a lot of Builders and I usually get a feeling that you know we are Builders and we're we're building products for the builders right so usually it's like who can understand all those Concepts terms uh Etc I I I don't think it's easy for like a single person who is even from the financial background who comes who's going to easily understand oh yeah this works like that and I understand it I don't and I think that's that's the main problem right because we're also getting huge fragmentation right now with like Builders just building so many things and there is no like like exactly what you said it's becoming a jungle and it's super hard to understand New Concepts understand new protocols and see where it goes so more streamlined process and aggregated basically aggregated source of all those things will help a lot driving towards Mass adoption exactly which which you asked for uh would you like to answer also because we have another question so yeah just one last thing I sort of echo what Nikolai was saying um firstly big up Malta uh I actually was there last week uh my first time and um in Rat and it's very beautiful country if anyone's not been to molta I don't work for molta tourism but I highly recommend going um so yeah I I I do think that the way to tackle this um is one education so you're talking about um so is what you do crypto is it crypto har crypto M crypto malter is it is effectively like an educational um community sort of project right I think education is really key here because like crypto blockchain all of this stuff so complex right it's very technological um it's made up of hundreds of thousands of nerds who are some of the smartest brains in the world right and they've they've built some crazy stuff but if you want to on board everyday people who are just as um have just as much right to use this stuff as as everyone else then education is is at the heart of it and I think it's like everything else you need to fight like for me what does education mean education means like breaking down complex um things into a way that makes it easy for people to understand right so it's almost like I see education as almost like a synonym with translation right like Effective Education is effectively translating something into some some something that people understand um and I think that's the key to onboarding people into crypto is one like building out a really um sort of quite extensive um and exhaustive like course in a way like an onboarding course like these are the basics right this is what you need to know and then pointing them towards some apps or some examples they can use to just to get started and not to like rush it and get too deep and like say right go on to Unis Swap and start trading and like go over here go on to base and start buying shitcoins with awful names you know I I like keep it really simple like this is one of the things that's really great about the the industry as as of late is that you're seeing I think you mentioned dbank as one example binance is another um of these like apps that are becoming available to to people which um centralize or not centralize but sort of aggregate everything in one place the the most easy to use things right um Le ledgers is quite a good example as well with Ledger live because obviously with Ledger you get the whole like um uh private Keys um uh not um broadcasting which gives you that extra security but the the app itself the app that you use on your phone um gives you just like straight access to like generate yield buy tokens you know these very like basic things where you don't need to be an expert which you can learn in a few hours really probably I think most people um and then from there start building right oh actually I like this I want to learn more about it I'm going to read about it a bit more or I'm going to try doing something a bit more advanced right because I because I made a bit of money off this yield and now actually I want to try buying and selling right um and trading and things so yeah I I think it's that's that would be my like takeaway right perfect let's hope that these recommendations will help mul Community a little bit you have a question and there's lady in the back having a next after I want ask okay so go ahead could could you hand her microphone and then this man was just going to ask a question first want I thank you thank you hello I'm yustina I work at wol facer labs and I actually we build vols. FYI and we give those insights regarding defi project so like I I agree with you guys that yeah education is very very important in this space and we need more insights and transparent like uh parameters and measurements that we can actually evaluate whether this opportunity is better or the other one and for example we at w faer Labs we build such solution so we have a dashboard vols. FYI and you can go there and actually see what are the tvl of any Vault what are the opportunities what tokens you can use etc etc so yeah totally I like I agree that this is very important but also some of you said that that yeah we need some unified uh interface that we can use like everything in one place because right now the problem is that yeah fine cool you have this opportunity but we at Vol FYI we like redirect you to the different protocol page and you need to go there to different app to different UI and you need to understand what's happening there and the only thing you want you want to deposit for example your token and start earning healed right now and not understanding another protocol so yeah this is something that's definitely needed and that's something that we want to build and maybe in the future I can share it with you thank you very much for your comment um I think that after this little um panel you can speak privately about the progress please uh next question yes um hi very interesting discussion especially the point I like the point about the economy and how it influence on people willing to take more risk and uh like currently I'm here with uh we are building decentralized trading platform also decentralized trading platform on chain on arbitrum and uh but our unique approach is that we want to provide Advanced risk management to average people yeah um and in this aspect we don't allow people to select their own leverage for futures position and our Leverage is is based like on risk parameters that lead to your leverage actually being pretty small comparing to like EX3 on binance or something like that um and like uh my question is will you expect PE uh see this change of like uh going from YOLO traders to just like responsible Traders uh that yeah want to have research want to have actually good risk management for their position or it's you think it's unrealistic in the near future like especially as we see in this cycle mem coins that actually don't have any application uh just like jeopardizing Financial inputs to uh good projects can I go yeah yeah I mean I I think even the the current market state is uh what's happening it's flashing out the The Leverage Traders mostly but uh in in my humble opinion like even in in in VB 2 right we we're seeing a lot of uh like a lot of Leverage and like time the market Traders which is I I think it's always going to exist and it's another just you know term and approach people use for trading some are spot Traders some are definitely you know going with like you know 50x 100x Etc getting liquidated in second there is even there's even a funny phrase which uh like like a couple of months ago Bitcoin was like very stable for a couple of days and there's been a guy who said like you know just go 100x leverage and you're going to see how it's not stable at all but I think it's uh I think it's uh like it's organic that like you know Market goes up and down and in my in in my opinion like right we see now that the whole world economy is prom to like a lot of speculations uh political Stuff Etc so in in my opinion there is currently no right risk management in in in in in VB Tre like like even the VB is like vb2 is constantly shaking out with like you know you can take a look at sm5 500 or whatever and even that's like you know becoming more more and more volatile which is probably the just the organic uh organic thing which happens so yeah I mean that that's more or less my take on those on those things and I I don't think it's going to change to be honest because people are always going to you know opt in and go like hunex on Dodge Coin or something even not understanding what it is but you know they heard it's a it's it's a good thing and that's the only way they can make like you know big amount with like 100 bucks or something like that so my view is that um that you have different types of products um effectively and that's how we need to look at this and leverage trading is effectively just like a a high-risk speculative product like you can go for the lowrisk option which is spot trading right which is just a different part on on the scale of the same product but um that's what they are and therefore like to answer your question I don't think necessarily like the that risk is going to balance out people are going to get better at taking risk or anything like that um I think people can be educated on the smartest ways to leverage trade let's say you know stop losses and things like that um but I think leverage trading will always be there as that highrisk product right like think of it like cars right you you buy a Tesla because maybe you're um environmentally conscious you buy a Lamborghini because you want something fast and loud and and and flashy right or you just you you know you buy a Nissan because you just want something um that's like stable and and you know low cost right but reliable um notice I didn't pick a lad there when I said that um so I I see like these products as as as as uh the same right leverage trading is effectively like your super high- risk but super high return or super high loss um products spot trading is your more chill uh Nissan Toyota Etc let's say um and I think that'll always be the way right that'll always be the case um it w't necessarily depend on the um the behaviors of the users thank you very much uh Alam you wanted to add yeah actually I wanted to ask question back so you said you kind of create like a suggest to leverage to the user I wonder how you decide because your business is effectively assessing the risk and then selling the risk to the user or what kind of algorithm do you use yeah we have like 100 page white paper with all the calculation what we do uh yeah actually like uh there is something like a risk parameters we have like cross margin uh but it's value at risk based so your position actually heding uh once again each other so for example if you're Bitcoin long and E short they are like uh colorate yeah um you effectively will have higher leverage because corate correlate and if you're going like uh Bitcoin long is short you will have lower uh leverage and it's all based on risk parameters I can't really go into mathematics of that we have a specific person for that but yeah uh it's all published you can read about it if you want uh it's CX um I I I wonder what happens if a user gets liquidated like do you have insurance for this or uh yeah there will be Insurance Fund and like we are still not in myet myet is planted like two months um yeah we have Insurance Fund we have like just normal I don't know normal properties of every exchange um but uh since it's order book is also on chain we have like liquidation Bots that will uh initiate liquidation for your position if needed to yeah to answer your question I think there is definitely a demand for highrisk opportunities and if your business can really Pro provide I think through like algorithm with additional Insurance on top of this I think they're going to be users especially as the bull market is will will come at some point yeah I will just uh say one one thing we When developing this we were thinking that like retail people they will probably wanted want leverage and we were actually thinking about uh creating this kind of uh ability to change your leverage but in our scenario it would be isolated margin because it's it doesn't work with war margin and this higher uh higher leverage but we like decided that it's not a good idea for Traders because they as you say they will be easily liquidated so yeah we really hope that there will be a change to this kind of more um like more responsive uh responsible Traders uh but yeah let's see uh like currently I would say our main focus is like prop Traders institutional Traders they are coming to this to this space uh they need tools like the only good tool right now on the market is dydx and they are not happy with that so yeah I hope that uh like we will attract whales for sure uh retail probably maybe okay guys that sums up um because time up is actually right now so perfect ending um if you had any other questions guys please um um catch our um panelist once again I want to thank um and repeat yakob vovi um Nikola M madra sorry for that buttering your name Alm bikov and anuki uh give a big round of applause for them it was it was my pleasure moderating this um panel I wish you a great day and see you soon thank you