Regulatory Advances in Crypto - TOKEN2049 Singapore 2022

guys everybody thank you for being with us today very very excited to be with you all as Andrew mentioned my name is Henry arsleyan and my passion and my focus in life is the future of money and crypto and today we're going to talk about exciting developments going on in the regulatory space in crypto it's called regulatory advances in crypto we'll see if we're making advances and I promise you it's going to be insightful interesting and most definitely uh exciting as well and to do this we have a dream team panel today uh Andrew introduce them a market right that you saw from uh from The Who heads director Regulatory Affairs APAC for gdf by the way Andrew introduced them but one thing you probably don't know about Malcolm he used to be afraid of speaking in public 10 years ago he changed a lot since then so Malcolm great to have you with us today next is Ari as I mentioned he's the head of legal government Affairs at trm Labs but actually before that he uh he was a federal prosecutor at the U.S Department of Justice and he spent two years as a senior official at the U.S treasury Department so either you guys love him or you hate him but you'll see how he goes but one good thing by the way about Ari he's run 26 marathons so here you go who said people in crypto were not exciting and Renault last night below Elise as a chief compliance officer at trillio uh one thing about renault's interesting uh he was born in Zambia and he's lived in three different continents in eight different states man that makes your tax filing quite complicated well we'll talk about that on different panel not for this one guys very excited to kick it off before we really jump into some of the details today we're going to talk about things like from AML to travel rule what do we see what are the big strengths what are the things to watch out for but really to set the scene a bit I'll start with you Ari and I'll move to you Malcolm from a scale to one to ten where do you think if we had to give a score or grade to the U.S regulatory framework how what score would you give to the U.S regular framework and what do you think needs to be done to improve it yeah no it's a really interesting question and and I promise you this is not a cop-out sort of not providing a score but I you know we're three two wheel one and part of it is it this is such early days in the space right you know I think sort of the Holy Grail today of crypto regulation is this idea of a comprehensive framework and you know sort of kicking things off talking about sort of the free market and the need for responsible Innovation I think what we're seeing right now is a need for business in the crypto space to have some regulatory Clarity because business doesn't work unless sort of you know what the expectations are from Regulators so I think what we're seeing right now is a piecemeal set of regulations and enforcement actions that are starting to build out that framework but it's still really so so early um and and quite frankly you know no U.

S president had spoken about crypto at all and today we now have an executive order that uh that came out in March and just last week or the week before pretty much every Federal uh regulatory agency in the U.S responded to that executive order and it really started to build out what a regulatory framework could look like but the reality is that Congress the legislator legislature has to act and uh we're probably still some time from that actually happening so on 310 Markham what do you give let's say from an Asia perspective not to pinpoint Singapore or Hong Kong but let's see what score would you give to the region um I don't think there's any clear winners at the moment we have to say that you know um I have to say Singapore is doing well here um the regime has kind of been building up over a period of time um I think there's an A A Wish and a desire for there to be more licensed firms here but there is a a push to make sure that those firms that are going through the process do actually have the right controls and everything else in place Hong Kong's getting there you know the next phase of its regulation is coming um that's going through the the legislative process at the moment Japan has taken a slightly more measured approach it's kind of been over a period of time um and then Korea came in fairly hard uh last year and sort of locked the doors quite carefully um so there's different ways of kind of um uh approaching it okay one thing and that that I think is part of the whole problem is that there's no sort of single way about all of how this is done that's right that doesn't help so in Europe uh we saw sort of an agreement on Mika which is the market and crypto assets act over the summer well yesterday I read that that might be potentially in Jeopardy um so you know and that was really the only comprehensive framework in the world for crypto so you know you walk through the hallways here and you say wow we have a mature industry of like really extraordinary companies but on the regulatory side I mean it is it is so early yeah well actually let me want to uh right now on that side on kyc side which obviously an industry went to a big revolution last couple years now kyc has become pretty much mainstream whether people like it or not we talk about regulatory advances is there a way from your perspective that we can make kyc better more effective more efficient and frankly more user friendly yes um all right I want to hear that so uh kyc is pretty broad it covers a lot of things so I'll talk specifically about the onboarding piece yeah so it's doing what people matters yes so as part of the onboarding um of customers there's a collection of their core data elements name date of birth address um and then there's a verification that's required to be done for the verification piece if I go to exchange a and I sign up for an account I give all my information and maybe a document if I go to exchange B I've got to do the same thing again so all these exchanges have my information and documents in in a more efficient World there would be some sort of reusable IDE that once you signed up you you had a token that you owned and you use that token to then open up your accounts and your information was then transmitted to the other exchanges so so those I think that's probably one of the most efficient ways um because we try this in traditional Finance which kyc utilities it didn't work right because there's always incumbent Bank who frankly wants it to be difficult for others to open an account right the question is can we can we do this in crypto using some of the the aspects that we have right so yeah so truly we have a lot of the biggest exchanges and they they seem pretty open to to ideas like this as opposed to the traditional Banks the traditional Banks were not open to sharing information so how we're going to deal with let's say I want to bring it up to you guys as well like D5 right as we're talking about obviously D5 becoming bigger part of our ecosystem how do you guys think we're going to deal with not only kyc but also other regulatory considerations with D5 yeah look I mean I think you know backing up sort of a moment just started talking about the the qualities of of cryptocurrency or blockchains right you know um the same qualities that make it such a Force for good right think think remittances or or transferring value to to Ukraine uh permissionless decentralized cross-border value transfer at the speed of the internet also makes it susceptible to illicit actors who want to move funds at the speed of the internet but but the difference the really extraordinary difference about open blockchains is that they are transparent and immutable so you can follow the flow of funds in ways that you never could I was a prosecutor for 11 years at the Department of Justice in the U.S I did bulk cash smuggling cases and networks of hawalas and shell companies and high-value arts and real estate there was no trm labs for those things right you know you can't you couldn't follow the flow of funds on an immutable public ledger so the reality is that like some of this is actually easier in crypto and we've seen that with some really tremendous cases where investigators were able to use tools to ultimately seize back stolen by you couldn't do that in traditional Finance I think I think there are opportunities to use technology to do AML to do kyc that that never existed before so if let's you got to give a piece of advice to anybody who wants to launder money in the room yeah they should not be using crypto yeah definitely don't use crypto I mean the really extraordinary thing is um you know the blockchain use cash way better Ash is King cash is King uh yeah something you learned 2049 here we go your mom will be proud come find me at the booth later we can talk about how to launder funds like 10 of anything so you know yes uh you know it the blockchain is forever you know a great example is uh you had the bitfinex hack in 2016. okay you know five years later the funds the largest seizure of anything in U.S history you know 4.

2 billion in cryptocurrency was was seized ultimately um that is extraordinary and the reality is that those people tried to move those funds funds for five years across blockchains and through darknet markets and mixers well they couldn't ever off-ramp the funds it was a terrible way to launder money and I think the reality is that blockchains allow us to do things that we never were possible before and that is missed in a lot of this sort of you know conversations amongst Regulators about how how susceptible it is to money laundering is the visibility is extraordinary actually on that point obviously it was a big conversation on the Travel rule that we're talking about do you think the travel rule will have an impact on some what iris mentioning I think so yeah so the the quick 30 seconds of travel rule is Swift for crypto that's the easiest way to put it okay so exchanges custodians will have to exchange information on the parties to a transaction between one another um now obviously that that creates a whole new series of how to actually move that data how do you find out who's on the other end of it um but I think more importantly it starts to then say okay we can we can see who's involved we can we can prevent things like sanctions of age Asian we can look better at our risk wrist approach to to money laundering and that kind of thing so I think it will will really help to solidify the industry but there are huge risks around data privacy data security uh user experience so I've seen all flavor of different things happening right now um that could give rise to fishing to to hacks to all sorts of other things so it has to be done in the right way and I've written a whole piece around how to do this but um looking at it it's it's concerning that some are jumping into the approach without actually involving their CSO their CTO their CCO their CEO because it affects everything across operations across technology across um your security and data privacy so doing it in the right way I think it will really help it will help too to really Drive um even further back Bad actors away from away from this whole sector if done in the right way which is a big a big question right yeah but don't you guys think I mean just what you're mentioning right now there's a lot of traceability with blockchain right we have all the kyc information and frankly I would argue that the at the the average or let's say top 10 crypto exchange right now has probably better kyc email than a lot of traditional Banks because they don't need to go with the Legacy systems after they can use latest technology like what you guys have right but don't you guys think that could be an obstacle ironically now I probably have more privacy and payments if I use my old school bank account Fiat Swift transfer then if I do I send you a Bitcoin transfer and people will be able to find out that it was my wallet sent by an exchange or mky seed you don't think that this this transparency may be deterrent at one point maybe an obstacle to crypto as the industry continues to grow yeah I I don't think so what's so interesting is like I think we need to strike that balance and that's really the key and I think you see you know smart Regulators globally trying to figure out how do you strike the balance to to ensure that regular users have a good experience that there's not friction in the process that they're able to have some level of anonymity look as more and more transactions occur on open ledgers people are going to want to have some private they're going to want to use mixers they're going to want to use anonymity enhanced coins the reality is we probably have more visibility today on blockchains than we will ever have but and it's a big but at the same time we got to stop bad guys from taking advantage of this ecosystem you know look I'm not going to put my money on a D5 protocol or on a centralized exchange if I think North North Korea is going to hack it tomorrow and steal those funds so it's really sort of striking the balance of how do you stop you know cyber criminals from taking advantage of this new Financial system that we're all building and at the same time ensure that regular users have some degree of privacy and I think there are Technologic answers to this I think technology can help we're working on this at trm all the time we work with D5 protocols on their front ends to ensure that they're screening for sanctions to make sure that Lazarus group is not transacting with their platforms um but it's but you know the technology is continuing to evolve yeah I mean even some of the recent reports we saw that were able even to uh uh you know demix mixers even some of the transactions like you mentioned bitfinex right it was very interesting but actually I want to focus more on that on tornado cash obviously big topic recently I mean many many would argue that first of all is it even possible can ofac have the legal right to go and actually block uh a smart contract first of all when there's due process there's nobody cannot defend themselves what do you guys think of this whole tornado cache let's say situation you think did we go too far is it the right thing to do we'll have a material impact and what can be the negative impact you think you can have on the broader decentralized world what's Tornado cash it is it is really extraordinary and um you know look over the last you know a few years we've seen Regulators globally particularly the U.S treasury Department go after sort of clear illicit actors in the space Right Dark Net markets and non-compliant exchanges that there's tons of ransomware going through and tornado cash was different because there were lots of regular users who like I said sort of were looking for some degree of anonymity and those regular users were dramatically affected by these sanctions and I think ofac or or treasury is really trying to do kind of what I described and that is walk that line between stopping Bad actors like North Korea I mean look the reality is you know According to some analysis we did at trm a billion dollars of of hacked or stolen funds from North Korea went through tornado cash I mean that that can't happen but at the same time we have to figure out a way sort of not to affect regular users and I think you're starting to see them Regulators try to walk that balance you saw recently some frequently asked questions FAQs come from ofac to kind of describe like hey you know if you're the victim of a dusting attack which means a small amount of funds were sent to you from tornado cash from a sanctioned address then that that's not you're not going to be a target of enforcement actions but the reality is that's the tornado cache is I think this extraordinary moment where we're going to have the conversation uh globally um that we had sort of post 911 uh you know about security and privacy and before we had those conversations in airports now we're going to have them about blockchains uh what what level of privacy do you need and are you willing to give up for security and vice versa and I think tornado cash is the beginning of that conversation I also think of various country right what is the the balance in China may be different from what it is in the U.S for example or Europe right like the same debate we have with cbdc's for example right I think it's one on that side but again just to focus on a decentralized role like on D5 El Paso two year I know is we need to find a way to provide find that right balance in D5 protocols for example what do you think could be that right balance okay well I see it on broader traceability as well so I think generally and it's having the industry work with The Regulators on the implementation I think tornado cash is a good example the wallets that were impacted indirectly through the sanctions action um I I think we're weren't expected to cause that much of a burden on the other exchanges and on individuals so so I think working with exchanges with industry experts before coming down with this action is critical for Regulators so cooperation with the industry but you guys think that I think the industry does a pretty good job though cooperating with the regulators and frankly law enforcement I mean I think that's all further to go so there's yeah you've been working yeah and and it depends where you go so it depends which regulator you're talking to as to how advanced and how well they understand this and a lot of it's about capacity so it's capacity and in terms of understanding with whether it's law enforcement whether it's policy makers so let's go back one step to before the laws are actually written it's not The Regulators writing them it's the it's the policy makers so you need your policy makers you need law enforcement to be able to do the detection you need The Regulators who are then supervising and and implementing all of this and all of those need to get to the same point of understanding and similarly actually in the opposite direction so for example D5 what what is it that regulation needs to solve here it's well it's stopping people from doing things they shouldn't be doing and finding a way to be able to detect and stop that kind of behavior and then being able to respond to legitimate requests from Authorities on information if anything does happen that will allow them to to then make a decision and say okay we can take further action or whatever and and being able to solve those two those two problems that's really what we're trying to get to so that we we actually make the system a whole safer place to to operate but how knowledgeable let's say actually I come back to you as a formal prosecutor how knowledgeable are let's say law enforcement again from one to ten on crypto the relevant departments in law enforcement on crypto yeah it's a really interesting moment and the the answer to your questions differs across jurisdiction yeah well let's start with the US for example I'd say that sort of federal law enforcement in the U.S is becoming more and more sophisticated um you know the FBI for example has stood up a virtual asset unit the US Department of Justice has a national cryptocurrency enforcement team and look I mean as you're looking across regulatory body Singapore extremely sophisticated in the way they're thinking about regulation to buy UAE uh same um but then it certainly differs and I think one of the things fat if which Malcolm does a ton of work in the financial action task force is trying to figure out is how do you do deal with jurisdictions that don't have have not really thought through sort of sort of Regulation but the reality is you know we are so early and you know I often say like it's great to have a virtual asset unit but every unit is going to have to understand cryptocurrency right there's no cryptocurrency crime that is not a thing crypto is just the currency used in the commission of other of many crimes every crime just like cash is so every agent across every agency globally is going to need to understand how to trace funds how to interact with D5 protocols and nft marketplaces and that's coming but again like I know it's like a cop-out to keep saying it but it is so early in this space and so much so many of us have been in it for a while yeah but when you're talking about regulation when you're talking about law enforcement I mean it's it's day one yeah but I think it's been interesting actually seeing them in Regulators how they've really got up to speed with many very impressive ways right you mentioned some Regulators there I think quite uh quite interestingly I really just you mentioned nft marketplaces right so obviously there's a lot of data there's a lot of reports coming out and uh of the amount of illicit activity taking place with nfts would you guys think that it's easier now to either launder money uh or create fake source of funds with nfts that it is with traditional that's called digital assets like crypto Bitcoin I think it's similar and my 10 deal still stands for the nfts if we want to talk nfts uh you know you know look I think any I think what what Regulators would say globally and quite frankly there's very little to no regulation anywhere on sort of how to regulate the nft space but I think what Regulators would say is if you could transfer value at the speed of the internet across borders they're they're going to regulate this in in some way or another and if you look out there the major nft marketplaces are using tools like trm today to monitor transactions to ensure that they're not sending an nft to a sanctioned address so a lot of the things that sort of you know Renault was talking about earlier are in place at Major markets but I will say like you know bust out the crystal ball for a moment and over the next few years I think this is going to be a huge Focus for Regulators globally the U.S treasury Department did a white paper six months or so ago on uh just the money laundering and traditional art markets and they basically said there's too much friction this is not a huge money laundering concern which I was sort of like well there may be some concern here uh but there were like four or five pages on nfts which is the first time that the U.

S treasury Department really any regulator has delved into that and what they said is we have serious concerns in this space because of how little friction there is in transferring value here and I think what that to me says is look this is something they're thinking about and and just to sort of finish up here the White House executive order that we talked about a moment ago ordered treasury over the next six months to study uh risks in the nft space so there's going to be a lot more coming in that space but obviously now we're talking about Solutions we're talking about regulation we're talking about Technology Solutions but if I look at some of the recent hacks Ron and hack which frankly was not a it was a policy procedure Gap that we had and if you look at recently where we had an open seat old school uh front running uh what we also had at the uh uh recently coinbase as well right do you guys think that maybe these are some of the elements the gaps that we have in the industry like for anybody who was running a crypto business right now yeah obviously get tools like trm and trulio but also your internal policies and procedures and make are as important if not more important based on some of the recent events that we saw including for the protocols by the way token teams as well like we saw with Ronin for example yeah you know look I mean I think from our own in perspective these are cyber security issues and I hate to sort of say like hey this is not a crypto problem this is a cyber problem but the reality is you got to build out your cyber defenses and any crypto business that's building today really needs to ensure that they're a cyber security is is foundational because we got to stop these hacks from happening in the first place it's great to have tools like trm to follow the funds once they happen and it's great for regulators and law enforcement to ultimately figure out ways to seize them back and we've seen some of that but we've got to stop the hacks from happening in the first place because look North Korea early adopter learned that hey I can actually steal money you know directly from these exchanges to fund weapons proliferation and other destabilizing activity and the reality is like we've got to stop that from happening and just sort of the the last piece to this is and it's not just National Security right like like I said a minute ago if we want this ecosystem to grow and flourish we have to have build trust and we got to stop these types of hacks and frauds from happening in the first place but there's a lot of cyber security issues but the Cyber is also policy like I'm amazed that I meet still so many crypto funds and crypto exchanges where there's no personal account trading policies oh they're very loose especially as we move down the ladder right of companies I mean those are pretty obvious uh I think that's not about trust that's a maturity piece so coming from if you come from traditional banking you're used to this I should say you're used to this if you saw the news yesterday in the US and there was a huge series of fines by cftc and SEC ironically yeah for using personal devices for trading and trading discussions um that actually points to the maturity right the you think ah you think this is okay but actually it's not and you shouldn't be doing this so yes there's policy you need to have those policies in place you need to have the education in place and then you need the monitoring the technology in place to actually then almost like seal the doors and say okay we've got everything in place it's policies are far more than just for example AML CFT sanctions that you're going to present in your license application and say yeah that's okay I can go get my license now it is everything it's codes of conduct it is personal trading it's privacy it's all of these things that come together but that's the area I would argue that the traditional Banks have actually a lot of experience and expertise and policies and you know and you know the industry has been quite mature has been dealing with it do you think the the that could be actually competitive Advantage as these traditional financial institutions come in that own these areas they pick the box for many of the institutional investors who want to enter the space like you think this will have an impact on uh traditional Banks entering the space I think it will I think it goes hand in hand though I mean and there's another I've been at another event recently where we were talking about exactly this and and the institutional impact and how institutions are coming into this space now whether it's building their own you know custodian solution or their own trading desk and things like that they have the advantages that they can bring some of that with them but then it it also comes at the the risk of is it too rigid in the shape does the shape still fit or is it a square peg round hole kind of thing so making sure that the whatever the policy is is dynamic enough or shaped in the way that it makes sense because if you say okay I have uh for example if you're trading shares you have to do it on a certain platform or with this certain broker so that we can monitor all your trades in the crypto world that may not apply because you can there are so many venues where you can go to to actually do your trading and you can do the whole thing through D fight so um it has to be approached in a slightly different way but still it comes with that experience and with that that knowledge of the we know how we did it over here and now we can apply it over here I mean one thing that's amazing to see is like you know and I don't know if it's maturation or just Evolution but I mean every major financial institution in the world is at some place on their crypto Journey today are we banking crypto customers are we offering crypto assets to customers are we uh you know do we have our own coin like you know JP Morgan so like you know I I moderate a panel a few months ago uh with the heads of digital assets from State Street and bny Mellon and Goldman and uh you know there are some really sophisticated players in this space today who are just sort of getting into this and I think we're seeing an evolution uh where vasps are going to be financial institutions and financial institutions are going to be vasps and we're going to see that play out over the next few years so those of you who work for traditional Banks there is some value add you could add to the crypto industry a lot a lot of value a lot of value it's really important based on this right so what is the biggest risk for any Chief compliance officer anybody's in a compliance role or even an executive role at a crypto company what is the biggest risk you think to watch right now what like what what should they keep what should keep them up at night for more regulatory perspective I'll start with your normal move there I think watching the regulations because a lot of the completion of regulations yes watching what's happening in the regulatory space and the enforcement actions because a chief compliance officer in the past might not have been concerned about insider trading at openc for example but when when those actions happen it's a message to the industry that these are the types of things that the chief compliance officer should be looking at and come coming up with policies and ways to to monitor or prevent them it's a good one I think that scenario where there's so much experience expertise anyways from transfer right and irie what is you think the the anybody an executive role should watch out for what's the biggest risk I think the scary part is it doesn't matter how great a job you do because it really a lot of it so much it depends on your counterparty and that's true in traditional Finance as well I mean look if you're FTX or binance or coinbase and you have giant compliance teams and have policies and procedures and are using trm and doing all these things sort of the right way um you know you still have to worry about you know interacting with jurisdictions that don't have these types of compliance controls in place you know what happens when you deal with the Sue x's and the chat x's and the grant X these non-compliant vasps out there in the ecosystem that don't have the same controls so you know I talked to some someone from Mas recently and and what they will essentially tell you is look you know even Regulators are only as strong as the weakest link in the system and you can have Rock Solid regulation in Singapore or in the US or in the UK but the reality is you know jurisdictional Arbitrage is a real thing yeah unfortunately right that's why fatf is trying to tackle right Malcolm what is the biggest risk the guys should watch out so I think building on that the two things I call out are know your customers actually do you know them I mean there's multiple layers you can go through it's more than just collecting a passport and saying I'm done there's a whole load of tech that you can put behind the scenes to really understand and make sure you know without actually affecting the customer Journey so I think that's the first thing um the second one is actually consumer protection which again has consumer protection consumer protection so your user protection and that's not just security that's um the access to certain products and things like that this is the big one that's coming down the track right now so there will be a lot of conversations Ravi men on here you know a couple of weeks ago made the point that that consumer protection and and you know the whole retail access conversation and how you actually manage that those kinds of things are going to be the I think the narrative we'll see it will move there's still going to be a very big you know wave of the AML piece there's the regulatory Arbitrage and all of that but I think that there's going to be a lot more Focus particularly because of what has happened in the last few months we will see consumer protection user protection taking that that front since stage yeah so on the first point actually many people don't know Malcolm was instrumental building World check that many people used back in his days at uh Thompson Road is but on your second point I think I think the first part I agreed the way that we're using passports and address I mean it's outdated it's actually embarrassing we're still using that in crypto right I mean the problem is there's no better way but anyways let's we discussed that already on the consumer protection I think this is an area we don't talk a lot and obviously we saw what happened with Celsius and actually some companies here as well in Singapore as well hot or not and others what do you guys think is going to be the best way for consumer protection of course if I go some exchanges now they ask me these five two three stupid questions which frankly doesn't make me more knowledgeable from a consumer protection perspective in traffic we often have a money amount that if my minimum investment is x amount I'm an accredited investor I'm going to sophisticated just because I have money but doesn't I can be an idiot with money which is a big thing as well what do you guys think we can have on a consumer protection inside what do you think is the way can we as a community reinvent I think I think you nailed it with the question like I love how you phrased that because you know there's all kinds of regulations that you can do and we've seen it and Mas has done a really good job but but look I mean the nature of crypto and the blockchain allows for visibility and allows for actually the community to police itself um at trm we work with binance and Ave and all these different um uh entities circle on something called chain abuse and chain abuse is just a free website where people report scams and frauds I think of it as like a Waze for crypto where we can actually self-police some of this stuff which was never possible in Fiat right it's just like a place where you can go to report scams and frauds to make sure that other people in the space are not being able to are not take being taken advantage of uh you can report to law enforcement if you want to yeah um so I think that there are ways for the community to police itself yeah I think so um I'd say that that the the industry needs to do as much as it can without The Regulators coming in because if if the industry just goes ah yeah we'll wait and see what happens we'll we'll just let you know Ride Along on the wave and and kind of continue as we are then you know that The Regulators are going to come up and and come fairly fast with we're going to impose this kind of restriction so for example I'm not a fan of only accredited investors or only professional investors can can trade crypto I don't think that's the approach I think it has so many negative um impacts and unintended consequences that sit behind it um as you said you know the fact that you've got money doesn't mean that you know what you're doing with it um it just means you've got money yeah um but there are plenty of for example developers who may not be accredited investors correct but know exactly what they're doing so we need to be able to um better segment now there's various ways that that might be done but we need to have a better way to segment and be able to prove I know what I'm doing I can trade spot I can trade derivatives I can trade or buy and sell nfts whatever it might be um but at least have that level of being able to understand I can prove what I'm doing I know what I'm doing therefore I should have access rather than just a blanket it's going to sit there and I think this is where you know going back to ravi's talk he was sort of saying this um that it he's the Mas is looking at this but I think as well that actually I think there's a point you made earlier you know about there needs to be that public private dialogue so there has to be a point where the industry says hey look we can this is how we think we can solve this yeah and here's how we prove it and prove it with data prove it with you know the ability to and just shout that out I mean this is what Malcolm has done better than anyone in our space it's like brought the the public and private sector together to have these kinds of conversations I mean it's it's it's awesome and I think you're right because the consumer protection especially after Celsius and everything that happened it's a slam dunk I mean it's a layup for regulator so frankly maybe rightly so uh to try to protect it and I think as a community if we don't work together on these issues yeah uh like then we're going to be in post certain conditions that probably are not in the best interest of the community and frankly our our users as well right so guys before we move I moved to my fire around battle the round of questions a bit of controversial one but like what obviously we're talking about regulations today regulatory advances in crypto I hope 2022 will be a year of regulatory advances what is the one regulator that you think is is quite impressive like what is one country thing is getting it right when it comes to rulemaking policy making also for me right now and we'll move on yeah so so getting it right means in my mind explicitly stating what's required and what's expected and then also implementing it correctly and so far on the policy side you've seen Mika come out in Europe and that's it's great yes great framework but but to answer your question I don't I think the better one is actually in the UAE where um there have been these working groups and The Regulators have been working very closely with the with the private sector and also established a separate regulatory group or a regulatory agency so you're not mixing traditional Financial Regulators with crypto regulators and and them being confused in how to to to examine or audit these companies Vara in Dubai getting all this a lot of Attraction so you're going with Dubai I think it's doing a job admittedly we should have deconflicted this I was gonna I was going to say UAE I think there are a handful of regulators globally I think the UAE is one I think the UK is really starting to put out some really thoughtful regulation in the space everyone's been very concerned about things like unhosted wallets for some time and they came out and said that really really thread the needle and said look you know unhosted wallets are not inherently high risk right they're just people like us who are who who don't want to interact with an exchange but you can do extra due diligence and that's what you should do and it's like is there a market solution so I think the UK has done a a good job I think I think that not the plate to the home team but I think Mas has really been thoughtful um I've shown a lot of expertise in the space as well interesting so UAE Mas and UK UK I didn't expect it yes I know I know I'll come up us too what are you said no I for actually the same reasons I think yeah UK very thoughtful I like their their positioning on unhosted wallets really despite all the website warnings that are you know and some of the water really yeah but nothing against FCA by the way but yeah I mean they're developing in that sense that that they have they they know their perimeters they're laying out what the perimeters are and what they can and can't regulate and what they can but they're starting to articulate message very well UAE is just moving at light speed yeah um which is kind of what crypto is right we're it's it's evolving very fast there needs to be that that speed of evolution yeah um and then Mas because it's just been a solid progress and there's been a lot of collaboration between mes and the the uh in the industry particularly in different different facets and there has been some very clear messaging of late yeah I think you always been actually for even our hedge fund as well we've got a provisional approval in Dubai for that reason it's it's very refreshing when you deal with a regulator who's focused on crypto and it makes the better regulations better surveillance as well guys we have a couple minutes left that my friend my best friend the Bella's back I'm gonna ask you quick quick questions I want one or two word answers okay you guys ready I'm gonna start with uh with you right now Renault if you were not in crypto what would you do payments payments Harry if you're not in crypto what other industry would be in I'd be the shortstop for the New York Yankees short stuff for the New York Yankees absolutely yeah hopefully they'll have a better year than uh uh sitting in Bali doing yoga welcome back to the next question um when uh what's your favorite thing to do on weekends when you're not busy with crypto on your job hi King hi King well a good Hong Kong activity are we chasing my two boys around here we go how old are they eight and eleven oh man a lot of chasing there right now what do you do on your weekend we're not uh busy on crack with uh Tuyo watching Lion King Lion King with my four-year-old daughter uh same age I'm watching the same thing 20 times as well uh random start with you if you can go back to University today what is the one course you would take that you wish you had taken back in the day next one I read data science I'm a lawyer uh who works at the tech company it would be so cool to have a little bit more ground in that grounded absolutely and the smart contract quoting the law as well exactly I took my answer again blockchain blockchain blockchain development yeah being offered I'm sorry for your Market Elon Musk decides to buy a crypto company which one should he buy and why uh shift because I work for them shift because I work for them which is the Harry I have no idea Elon Musk is buying company crypto which one should he buy coinbase I don't know tomorrow your offered let me start with you right now you offered to be the CEO or the head of any regulatory body around the world which regulator would you want to go and Lead tomorrow morning Mas Singapore here we go homie home turf oh you U.S treasury US Treasury they may need some help uh soon so him I'll go with um I don't know because it's all new and shiny oh that's cool Dubai um we're in Singapore guys favorite thing about Singapore Markham the energy the energy energy and the absolutely yeah all of that absolutely I I had an awesome run this morning along the harbor past the Merlion and I it it you know it's just an awesome City it's training for his Marathon exactly yeah no what's your favorite thing about Singapore the food the flavors and different types of food yeah absolutely we have a minute left uh what's your if do you have one piece of advice to the audience where they can go learn about crypto what what do you recommend what they should read follow what they should do go to trulyu.com there's a lot of information there and more to come your content team will be happy Harry I mean I have to say follow me on LinkedIn but but my serious answer is this in all seriousness like there's so much great content out there so much to read but but in the regulatory space read enforcement actions right read the actual actions where Regulators are going after folks in the space because just don't do those things and then the problem solved right welcome tip my answer again um follow Henry Henry take his course last question guys to finish up the crypto panel if you could have lunch or dinner with one person Dead or Alive lunch with one person that alive right now with you Steve Jobs why is that just because of his mind and how he turned everything around in the company and how he did that Alexander Hamilton because he's young Scrappy and hungry like we all are in the crypto space um but yeah he built a new Financial system just like we are and uh it's extraordinary moment and what it was back then too Steve Jobs Mr Hamilton to finish it off the regulatory panel at token 24 9 2022 in Singapore marketing if you can have lunch dinner with one person Dead or Alive who would that be Satoshi Nakamoto guys thank you very much for the panel today that was great [Applause]