Enabling DeFi to be more - Panel

[Music] we're back we're back yes my microphone is back it is my greatest pleasure to introduce you to your MC for the next couple of hours for the afternoon please welcome James Ray Applause yes thank you yo yo yo how's everybody doing oh my God this what a what a show out today guys honestly I've been here all morning the one thing I would say I want to give you I want you guys to give these ogs Some Noise first of all before we jump into this what an event what a start let's give a little round of applause to the coordinators the founders of this let's go guys come on all right I just want to say one thing so who came over from from block split in Croatia anyone here from block split anyone come out no anyone come out from NFC Lisbon a couple of you must have been there well if not you know what we're you guys have a treat in store for you you've got a couple of ogs coming onto the stage for our first panel of today's session it's going to be hosted by Nikki from Taos and you know what it's the big one so this is enabling defi to do and be more dot dot dot let's go guys Nikki come on out Nikki hey guys okay let's welcome our panelists thank you guys for joining so I was actually expecting the audience to be a little less you know uh yeah was less crowd but it's great to have you here so thank you very much so today we have awesome some panelists and we're going to talk about like how to make defi great right how to make D cool actually and how we can enable it like to be more than what it is today so a little bit about myself my name is Nikki I'm responsible for BD at TS foundation so and without further Ado I will pass it to Marina hi everyone thank you so much for inviting happy to be here I'm Maria a core contributor of CA organization and uh space in theast at CA I oversee people operations and Recruitment and who doesn't know CA is organization of developers market makers and Community um members and one of their product is cow swap uh which is a trading platform with a famous cow swap UI on top of it thank you awesome James hey I'm uh James the founder and CEO of super chain um we're building data infrastructure um because we kind of see the industry becoming more and more centralized so we decided to build verifiable and transparent data so we can start building more decentralized things uh in crypto so really excited to be here today awesome Daniela hi uh I'm Daniela I'm product manager at blogu uh our focus is optimize human coordination uh by building public goods and I'm currently currently working a platform a swap platform called swap place and it's a Ste this platform because you want to make swaps accessible yeah go ahead hi I'm Bryce might have seen me this morning so um my S has been for while Defi and uh since about seven eight months ago I started an association with some colleagues to support genuine def protocols on the defi Collective awesome thank you so much so we have the brains here and also I would be appreciative if the audience participate as as well so if if you want to add something please raise your hand and we will actually invite you to speak as well so let's start right like uh I would like to start like with Daniela first uh so like you know we're talking about Mass adoption right and we talk about like bringing billions of users into the space I mean if you will look currently at dii it sucks pretty much right like the user experience the hacks like yesterday for example we experienced Val cor hack on zky and Lena you know like essentially it's pretty gloomy so what do you think is the next big thing that's missing in defi to actually enable that mass adoption and like for example like there was hackaton yesterday like what would you what what did you expect to come out of it what kind of solutions you would like to see coming out of initiatives as such well uh that's a great question I think we're missing of course user experience great one ons uh to join this echosystem is difficult to join the f is difficult because to create a wallet is difficult for uh uh newbies so to join liquidity pools is hard to uh understand mon Legos is hard so we need uh great uax um but we are talking about it like in all the events all the panels about def F what's missing U what's missing ux um and it it's pretty difficult to to to build that I guess but I think things will be different when a cter distraction turns into a real thing um also security uh I I I didn't left the defy but I'm not interacting with the def system anymore because of the Hance um vulnerabilities in a lot of pools recently so we are here and this kind of er this kind of mistakes keeps going and on and on uh so I think yes you and security are the and U generally speaking right apart from your ux and security would you like to add guys something why is it taking us such a long time actually yes uh so Mass adoption is actually I would love to see it as soon as possible and it's this is really a great question and great thing for the whole Space to happen the next and I think what we are missing is uh so let's first understand where where we are so basically we are still on the stage of uh Enthusiast who are uh building the community who are super excited about the space but uh we are still like occupy think I would say 5% of the population who actually use the products and who actually understand about the space and so on so I think the thing which is missing is to educate users to educate the public to bring it closer to the public to bring the products which actually they can use because the problem which I see right now is there are lot lot of products um which are Tech which are built for Tech savy right so if you don't have technical knowledge not always you can U understand and easily use the product itself so I would love to see something what is actually bringing that uh crypto uh space web space to the normal users who even doesn't uh understand or doesn't know about the space at all but they are willing to to um accept uh they would like to to try and so on so uh at least 30% more of population try start to use it as soon as possible which is I think uh going to happen within the um next years then I'd just love to add a little bit to that which is I think that if you use your bank account I think the whole point would be that it's extremely easy and you don't need to understand for example in Europe you have sepa and you know I know this is a crypto conference but uh being able to send money between people quickly easily with great user experience you know for example an iban you can't mistype it because there a check sum so it will say it's invalid so if you put an a instead of an o or something it will actually check that so I think that crypto although it's started as this kind of Niche thing I think really it needs to start being the supporting layer behind a lot of these experiences because then we can reduce the amount of education and actually focus on the people that you know actually care about it and actually care about building in blockchain and the people that are using it are simply using it as part of daily life but the gap between those two things is obviously ginormous so we have to approximate for that experience with education around wallets and keys and all this stuff instead of being actually able to deliver like an experience that loads quickly right like most crypto apps take 10 20 seconds to load whereas bounce rates from uh landing on a website from Google if it takes more than 2 seconds it's got like an 80% drop off which is crazy right that's not acceptable to any other business being crypto it's the nor yeah Bryce maybe like next question to you since you're very active in the space like what is the product that you would like to see actually emerging that you would say like okay this is the next Pinnacle of usability mass adoption like what would you like to see personally yourself I'm not going to make some people happy but um yeah I think you is overdone you know we've so I've been here for for years half a decade and I've he people say we need to improve uix and let me ask you like does your bank has a good uix no but you still use it you suffer it to do whatever you need to do with your bank it kind of shows you that if we don't have billions of people it's not a matter it could be a factor but I don't think it's the main matter the bigger matter is how much of us are actually using defi to begin with so all of you in this room who has 99% net worth in defi because you know if we're here to talk about Defi and how it's Superior we should manifest it in how we actually use our money um and I can tell you from experience it's not the case the builders marketers we are not buying on merchandise so um it's hard to expect it to go across without even having that so more than yix I think what we need is just people documenting more than because we keep thinking of new protocols new infrastructure new development I would foro any Innovation for several years if we just all focused on creating improving documenting explaining creating structures you know just example of businesses going on chain how did they manage their accounting what they do and so on example of Association trying to harness those those system personal bloggers going around and how they manage their Finance Now using defi that's how we cross the gas it's not youi would help but at the end of the day I think it's really more showing how it can only already be real in in the life of people of business and how you can already achieve things out of that and like the key factor is are we using on stuff I would turn IM immensely bonish as soon as I have this like you know I go to a conference and everybody is massively defi you know you know they know what they're talking about and so on because it's it's common like people working on big protocols or whatsoever not doing things on chain no totally agree here like generally speaking right like all of you touched a good point on ux but also on the security right like and essentially like every chain likes to talk about compossibility like pretty much making your defi ecosystem composable so like you have your tax your Landing borrowing protocols your tax aggregators and so on and so Force but essentially one of the key features that we or key problems that we also miss is that this actually compossibility becomes a curse to a certain respect and um we can't TR avoid smart contracts exploits of course there's always a smart contract risk whatever we do in Defi and I think till that's removed or till that is insured to a certain extent we will be actually facing this lack of mass adoption so and maybe like question question to James because I think uh you're more knowledgeable in this uh space and Paradigm like what are the best practices actually to ensure the security of defi protocol especially when we're talking about compossibility and exploits well it's very kind of you to consider me an expert on that I don't think don't think I am to be quite honest with you but I'll I'll give it a go I think that comp composability is one of the kind of key advantages of smart contract and like if we look at the traditional Finance system and how that actually works is it's the ability for example for a Trader to within one transaction take out a loan to back their trade Etc supported by the business they work for and you can do a trade actually for example on like a stock market consists of 14 different participants across different parts of the globe often it's a really powerful system um I think that composability is a risk and I think that one of the ways it's being reduced is is where actually people have their own app specific chains so they can interfere with things we saw that with linear or linear don't quote my pronunciation on that um where they actually fiddled the sequencer right so while they're kind of you know testing they're obviously part of consensus which has some liability associated with hacks and things so one way I've thought of is that we can delay things so for example in traditional Finance you can unwind you can pull back right but that has severe disadvantages in terms of finality um and then the the uh other thing is when you've seen a lot of protocols which they actually block composability so they actually just have Smart contracts and they're like we block flash loans because that's an exploit don't think that's particularly maintainable but people that is one of the solutions that's been fled makes sense everyone else someone else would like to add something to this um I would add I completely agree with what you said um and I would add that uh by offloading the risk from the users to the S sophisticated parties would also help so users will feel more protective and sophisticated parties they can you know take care more of the security and in in case of C swap so we have solvers who uh who are taking care of the of the uh trade itself who are uh based on the B auctions and solver competition providing with the uh best possible possible outcomes for for the users and if there's something happening let's say uh the protocol got hacked or there is an exploit solvers actually are the one who are taking the risks of that and in this case uh the users feel more protective and they benefit out of it so once they go to the platform they you know don't think twice uh there is uh not many things which can you know can happen wrong and for for them and they take risk but without like actually sophisticated parties they taking risk of that also uh on other side I uh think that audits uh you know take a Cru crucial part for the security back bounties uh and uh when the actually uh developers are also more educated and uh they receive more information about uh uh the um like the compossibility itself so so they're more educated and they can minimize the risk for uh for the protocols they building so my next question will be again on the compatiability but more on the systemic risk side right so like what do you think of actually composability RIS raising systemic risks in Defi and do you think like there's a possibility to actually pre prevent it because there's like systemic risk as you may know in trafi and then of course there's systemic risk in defi so like how does it actually encourage that so maybe danela you would like to unpack on that yeah um I was talking with you in the backstage about that uh for sure like defy offers us um more systemic risks um but I I'd love to see more uh tread fight trying to join the defi I was uh telling Nikki that Brazil has a cbdc and it is evm compatible so yeah it it it's an amazing music casee you know um because when this big this this big ones join the the defi they will force the security they will force the improvements um yeah I think I think that's the my my my my biggest two cents on that but don't you think like probably this big players to join like General speaking defi they will probably need more regulatory framework more clarity more actually you know like substance rather than what we have currently right like defi is like if you look at it it's it's a great playground right you can always connect your wallet but like you can always lose your funds you can always like things can happen yeah um I don't know if I get it it's kind of I I cannot hear you that that good go go ahead no no what I was saying that don't you think like this bigger players that you want them like or Envision them to join like they would need more regulatory Clarity and framework around sure sure yes uh that's why for example chain link has uh uh great user interface to bring more mass adoption uh for sure they will need that they will need that uh that's why I think uh we don't see a lot of user cases such as Dr this Brazilian cbdc uh so sure they will need that this Clarity Clarity but since they join and um face those difficulties we are uh uh facing right now like he mentioned we keep suffering but we are facing it but since since they assume to suffer that kind of uh things uh things will be better um yeah it's up to us to make a environment better to the big ones to join us because we know that since they join maybe we we have more um regulations on that around defi um yeah and of of course Mass adoption definitely you would like to say something yeah I don't know I mean I am I agree it's all up to us but for the rest I'm exactly the opposite side of the spectrum it's like the big actors they don't build responsibly uh I don't have example in history where they did so usually what they bring is they will gate access to the ecosystem by creating a mon of requirements but that amount for very little effective security for the user and you know if we think about the bigger picture Bitcoin was created as a reaction to monetary policy going haywire and delivered a better product on that regard no we have a defi and arguably at least I'm convinced of that we delivered better than any banks better than anything you know quot me an exchange that works better than Unis swap I'm still waiting and I know any answer you give me I would tell you it's censorable it's closed on the week this guy can do this I cannot list my token on my own you see all the things that are brought by this decentralization so so just like to me I'm finding it so ironical that now we're like oh we hope the big daddies come back and they will have to put order in know in our Courtyard you know but think um for example if uh DRX is would be a thing this cbdc this Brazilian cbdc and they start to create some money Legos something with D um or another stable coin so the government um we use that stable coin which means that the government cannot sh that stable coin down country because imagine if the US government says that is over now I don't want anyone to use usdc so the whole defy Amica will be in a bad situation of course we can still use it because it's decentralized but don't you think it's better to have them in some way yeah I'm not I'm just saying they will not bring rationality and resilience to this you know we did it without them and this is not the actors that bring russan resilience to to a given market like who who are us I mean at the end that's us that's us you know it came to be as such because we were demanding we community of something different and better we then delivered all something different and better and then we use it to coordinate together to say that oh we're going to wait for the big guys to do their usual SP and I just don't buy this narrative at all they can come they can go but institutional players even you know previous C they were here the Terra the Luna and all of that we tend to forget the FTX big massive institutional the big names were involved in that they didn't see a basic failure of design on a stable coin so can I see show you a bit like yes I think it's up to us for sure as I said I think it's up to them also uh because in the end of the day I think it's always about having a guy inside that that is a crypto passionate I think these ideas emerged from someone inside of the government that uh really um keeps following the narrative and oh actually we should build that so there's one of us inside there I I think personally I think we need to work together on that like they have to take something from us we have to take something from them I mean like also right like we have to control each other as well because as soon as a player gets like a bigger in size they always ask for regulation so for example FTX he was big enough he was asking like for regulation because also regulation creates barriers for the others to enter as well so that's something to keep in mind and that's also what we see for example with the other players like open Ai and stuff like this as soon as they become big enough they ask for regulation and I think that's kind of sad as well because you're coming it comes from the ulterior motives right it's not just because you're like looking for the good of the others so uh nevertheless like I would like to actually like or I'd love to just add some concrete examples to this conversation because um we actually encountered this the other day where most so we we have some public companies that invested in us and they can't custody their own crypto they're not legally allowed yeah so you know if you want to run a metamask wallet inside one of these businesses you you're fired right you can't do it you have to use a custodian which is a specialized business for storing your crypto because they have things like insurance policies and stuff like that which makes the regulator comfortable so um their adoption is regulated heavily and I think at the moment I think they're very very happy in Venture they're happy being LPS in venture capital and benefiting from the space and its growth and obviously ETFs and things like that which are effectively a proxy for custody within the traditional Finance system so it can be used within the traditional Finance system now that's very exciting for prices but I'm not sure it's as exciting actually for crypto self um I mean storing a whole bunch of Bitcoin inside a central entity that is then owns it but is shared out that ownership to people via a centralized platform is kind of the opposite thing that I would like crypto to achieve and having spent a long time in finance I'm very happy to be in crypto trying to build something as an alternative to that um but I was just going to say one last thing which is the regulation is important because as if we want to integrate the rest of the world it's not good enough that I can send money to you as a person we also do need to have companies be able to operate on this in this space not necessarily extremely large ones although I think institutional adoption you know it is what it is and I think you made some great points about that but the companies coming on and you being into able to interact with people on blockchains as a business is extremely important and something that I would wholly support um and I it's not getting easier it's a mix bag depending on where you are in the world but anyway that was my two cents no I agreed so I share the same view uh in a way so unless you would like to add something Marina yeah I just want to say that uncertain regulations also add lots of risk to the users you know they and to not only to the users but also to the developers and even like if you will think about receiving some payments on chain or receiving like payments in crypto in some countries you simply cannot or um yeah there are lots of restrictions um around that so if there would be more clarity about the regulations like more and more users will start using um webst stre crypto space for their daily life which actually a goal of mass adoption and actually a goal of defy right so more and more users use it for their daily life uh but also a comment on traditional finance and uh uh defy so um it's super hard you know to make this big jump completely from traditional Finance to defi I think it should be evolving naturally and it will take some time and will I think it's almost impossible to not have any cooperation with traditional Finance on this way of evolving so I think there still should be uh some ways of cooperation for us to reach the goal which uh truly defy uh space would like to see and how it should be uh let's say in those 10 years you want to see Define I mean here I agree with Bryce like I think we have to push it ourselves we have to do it ourselves because there's no one's going to push that front I mean of course we have to also ensure that the protocols work you know like when people provide liquidity and then when they withdraw it they don't feel like oh my God I made it you know so like nothing happens so like we really all have to work kind of like to bring it together to the space otherwise like I don't think that bigger players will do that as well here I share the same view but nevertheless like let's move to another controversial Topic at least it's a controversial topic for me so it's called governance so I'm sure you have all like uh checked different governance forums you have experience like um trying them them out you have Ved maybe like you have expressed your opinions so one thing that I would like to ask like a lot of big protocols they bolst about having this decentralized governance but in reality like how decentralized it is right if you look at it it's heavily political at times so like um my question would be like um yeah what do you think General speaking of the current governance structures like what does it have to what does needs to change in order to make them truly decentralized in my view in most of the cases like the opinions are driven by one person or two and then like you have delegates which have like a huge amount of tokens they just go and what based on the opinion of that one person or that group so and essential it's naturally the centralized so price please go ahead yeah I'm GNA kill your party right there uh no I mean uh I mean here again it's an easy topic but we made it unnecessarily complex the easy assessment is that I don't know of any functioning governing governance system in the world non work proper even all democracies or whatever that is so you know it's how insane it is of us to think that we can bring that on chain and suddenly ah the votes are transparent everything will be fine don't worry no um you know most of governance of this day are still one token equal one vote you have no wasting you have no nothing so it's essentially the purest most pristine form of plutocracy we ever created because used to be that there are some filters you know in current democracies yeah you can buy the media and I will buy you the power but there is at least one level of proxy between the two too here is like you buy the token you buy the vot so from a design level it couldn't work and it's a question of do we even need it in most time it's not needed and then when it's needed we need a lot of mitigation system around it so you know find a way to to structure it so it's not the loudest voice governing and I have a sense of expertise coming in into those governance because right now it's mostly people with public platform and um yeah people with a lot of Social Capital that are able to outweight those decision more than um the more relevant or cuse or aligned profiles yeah my favorite phrase is like when you approach one of them they're like yeah I don't decide anything th decides you're like yeah come on like you pretty much drive that decision you know so but anyways nevertheless like my question would be like what can we do in terms of like existing tokenomics or in terms of like a existing voting structure to change it and make it much better I agree not everything needs governance not everything needs Community W but essentially like to certain extent I think it's good to have both because in the end of the day we can like kind of try to control each other right like if we're doing something r as an entity the community can control us and if we see that Community is not going in the right direction we can step in so somehow there's a control mechanis ISM which I believe like if we wouldn't have each other like this wouldn't exist and essentially I believe it makes the space somewhat different but generally speaking what do you guys believe like what needs to change in order to make it much more efficient much more like I would say um like friendly what much more I would say like a decentralized would you like to add something James yeah um I unfortunately agree with Bryce's assessment which is that you know very little govern kind of works um at Super chain we've spent a long time designing our token um we've tried to Loop governance as part of using the token so instead of separating everything out where it's like a voting system Etc we're providing data right so you can actually stake on these different pieces of data that you want so it's much more like direct action with a direct response and if you make the right decision then you earn more cash capital and if you make the wrong decision you don't and also making the right decision gets you reputation so you can start to build out instead of a a pure plutocracy instead you're incentivizing for example if you're like tels who are using uh super chain for data you know Telos will get a bigger vote than someone who holds a lot of tokens that have a multiplier because they rely on us right so they're actually a key user for us they're really important and the same for any daps so we tried to Loop in the real reality of the economy we're building into the governance structure um but we're pre-launch so you know we think this will work but it's going to be unfortunately you know more Aristotle's like benevolent dictator for some period of time as we work out you know whether this thing really will work how we're expecting because we've seen other things get gamed right you know curve is a prime example of like the ultimate gamification in insane manner of you know the token voting system so um I I agree with Bry just think that may that maybe there's like a middle ground of if you can deeply integrate it where it's something that's native to your project instead of it being like a separate governance system then I think it makes sense but of course it only makes sense for certain projects and certain structures where we're like very we're utility right we're extremely specific so it's much easier for us to direct tokens in that manner um but I would like to see more of that kind of thing yeah awesome oh sorry that you mentioned repetition it's basically my entire talk today I give a talk today at 4 P.M and I totally agree with Ry um amazing POV um in the end of the day if it's one token one vote um it means that you can sell your decentralization as you can see with unit 5 for example an a16z um unfortunately or fortunately if you are more VC focused we don't know all dep it all depends on the the governance model um but I just want to to thank you for measure reputation it's a narrative that come back and forth and people are trying to build trying to implement kind of multipliers that can um I don't know that can count make your efforts count and I think this is brilliant because recently I saw for example a lot of proposals on um how to represent under represented members because we need to consider even the social and economic background like I cannot buy a lot of tokens I I I'm I'm from a country that people are not rich so how can I be represented in a dow so through my efforts which means add reputational that so maybe we can see in the future defy reputation and governance being friends no totally like you race actually like you guys started talking about tokens like generally speaking we're actually in this space good at issuing the next token right so just issue token raise funds or whatever raise funds before the uh like going on going public and going on mainnet and so on and so forth and just a question right like all those governance tokens that we have there where there's like no real utility apart from the actual going and wng or using them for w do we actually need those tokens do we need to issue a token for governance please go ahead no we don't I mean that's like okay if we need to speedrun back four years in Defi and remember year and the whole def summer because that's the first time literally someone put on on White on paper on their website this is a useless governance token it has no utility this is what was written vertin and token started was limitted over a week and essentially grew up in price dramatically because here on the Tok the protocol was was sing instruction and despite this massive warning that L was stating it was useless people found it as a good way to bid on y as a proxy and and so it worked essentially kind of set up the template and now it became this pattern it's like a design pattern of give um portf in governance as a utility for the token and th it's reason to be when as you say you can just close the whole loop from the beginning maybe we don't need governance and we don't need this useless token and then we don't have to justify the existence of this useless token um this is where I would go and especially for defi it's even more obvious because we have you know this answer simple problem of we're taking decisions and need a quantitative measurement of who whose opinion is worth so much but there is another way we can do that pretty straightforward in Def is just okay Capital At Play how much Capital you have at risk on that question and we can measure that then this is how much you can vote it sounds like plutocracy it's still a form of plutocracy but it's a better one I'm selling you a better plutocracy see how the the IDE are slow but because at the end of the day this form of plutocracy means um everybody's voting on things they are directly impacted for so you know people voting on which new um collateral to add on Avy that would be all the people supplying ay so having collateral at risk on that question if a bad collateral is added and there is bad depth they will be the one impacted so you know this governance token is like an extra step for that where you lose a lot of information in the process because someone owning one million a token might have zero doar deployed on the a protocol and just be here out of other interest does any of you have a counter viiew I wish I did oh really good so but then like I have another question so let me be the counter viiew here right so like basically like but like then like some people believe that the token is very important to build that community that you have there because like you know you have your community which comes and asks you on daily basis before you launch your token like when token you know so and essentially they see it as an important part for actually like people to participate generally speaking in your protocol or like to use your protocol at all like they see like that it's very important like basically to have a token for the community and like as you may know like Community is like an integral part of any project in the space so like how how would we then approach that how can we build sustainable Community actually without actually having those governance tokens but you you are specifically about governance tokens yes but if it's actually got utility right and it's also got governance built in and the utility is not just governance like the utility is executing transaction acts this as some unique thing or whatever that is then that's a different game and so if you want to build a community you should build it around a real utility and a real product not around oh yeah like let's get money in and we're just going to have a voting structure around this money that I'll shave my fee off and disappear at some point when I soft rug with my salary right so I don't know I think if it's around utility that's how you should build community as opposed to kind of building against governance governance if it needs to be part of it it's fine but it needs to be around an actual product actual valuable asset um that's correct to be built in this way and not just as an excuse to kind of raise funds yeah I totally agree like it's not toonomic if it's just to endorses the narrative that you are owning the protocol we we need utility um and when the treasure starts to dry up what what the hell are you owning in the end of the day um yeah I think reputation can help uh to give that kind of um to to to have the engagement of the community to keep the engagement uh of the developers and also open source can help a lot um so if uh if a protocol is built by the community and for the community this is something that can uh connect that kind of wires of this ecosystem but only a token to tell that you own this protocol but nothing else I don't think it's a solid economics and I would like to add also um Community for this stage of the is super crucial in my opinion and uh uh but there are other ways how you actually can build and maintain Community for example again through the decentralization through the grants so they can be more involved in the protocols in the projects and so on so there are other things around not necessary only that they you know uh goes through the T economics no I agree as long as it's not a point system so so that's already a good start all right so next um like just like would like to also get your future view on the space before we actually finish off the panel so each of you right like what do you think actually will happen within the defi space like in the next 10 years like if you had to predict what trends would you predict and yeah like what what do you think the hurdles that we will need to overcome essentially and actually like how do you see this relationship between defy and trafy evolving but this is not your bingo question so just for you to know so Marina great question I would love to predict it um so I think that uh there are definitely lots of things will happen within the next 10 years and even it might be a you know crucial big steps for defy change the the only question is how it will be uh will it be you know truly defi which actually we want to see with a transparency with permissionless and so on what I would like to see is more smart contracts instead of uh private Keys uh intent transactions intent based instead of transactions more education and uh more again like transparency transparency transparency defi is uh all about decentralization compossibility and transparency so I would love to see the things evolving and actually building and making this defi uh space truly as you want to see um and bringing the value first of all to the users and and um and the products which they can use on daily on daily basis and um another thing is that they hopefully we'll get on the financial side will get their salary on chain uh Investments uh and uh you know uh they can go to the copy place and pay with the with their uh you know with their uh crypto assets instead of uh debit or credit card actually super also proud of gnosis pay um and uh and so on so more products which are closer to the users I use on daily basis I was going to say um a couple of things so one I think in the short term we're going to see a lot more fragmentation in liquidity so we're going to see more and more layers and layers and layers on layers because there's a huge incentive to launch a layer launch a token grab people to it spend money on marketing and you know Bob's your uncle you've got a chain which is worth 100 Mil and you you know you can now liquidate your team whatever and run away or you know try and build it whatever it is and actually you can see a lot of chains are trying to do this in different ways some badly some well so that fragmented liquidity is a continuous issue which kind of this modular narrative is is kind of created and so we're going to basically the issue with that is two things one is incentives so basically you need to move people to your chain and the second one is um market inefficiencies so the reason that kind of traditional Finance actually gets good prices on stuff like Forex is because there's like one giant market for gbpusd right so you haven't got thousands of markets you have like primary and secondary markets you have primary Market which is great big if you got big money you can access it otherwise you have to pay small fees all the way down to you know when you change cash in a store or whatever so but what happens in crypto is that you have many primary markets across all these different chains as amm and basically they're extremely sensitive to the amount of liquidity that's basically how you get good or bad price um I mean we're observing data from all these different dexes and like you know you could trade on ethereum like a million dollars and get 99,999 whatever of whatever token you swap to but you swap the same thing on some other L2 and you know you'll get 50% slippage because there's no liquidity there so it's it's a very annoying issue which I think we're going to see in the short term get worse and worse and worse until we work out and this is my long-term view into like as a user that you see one giant monolith so you don't care that it's arbitrum Telos ethereum whatever it is you just see my tokens that I own and then this able to transact them and I know that that's one thing that intents are looking at doing you know I think there's some other options as well potentially you know making unified access some people talking about chain abstraction there's lots of different answers to this question I think but anyway that's my two sense more fragmentation for now and then hopefully some remon thing of everything yeah and more liquidity nice I like this this POV uh in 10 years okay I can see more try working with us uh which I think will keep us more prepared um with less systemic risks because bank system has less systemic risks due the time they're um working even though we don't like them uh I don't uh but I think yeah we will see less Hy mistakes we'll see more um user great user experience we'll see more usability to economics based in us real use cases um and yeah I can see trefi work together with Defi and I think we will open up a lot of use cases and great uh and huge liquidities then mess adoption I guess oh no I mean I'm I'm not good at prediction um especially things that comes I don't know I'm always surprised I was I wasn't anticipating reaking tokens to become a sing for instance so you know big failure right there yeah um but yeah know I agree with like definitely more fragmentations because right now the economic incentives are everyone in the m is launching a rollup and it's likely to keep going as such for a short time at least and general people start to really um be I don't know tired of having to deal with 50 chains but the problem is you this is where we go back in the uix things we made the uix better to handle cross chain wallets and so now and also tons of um tooling to launch World up easily and now we get tons of people launching World up and people switching between tons of world up but you know we get what we optimize for in terms of uix but at the end in terms of people achieving their result are they doing better than three years ago when they were going on just optimism arbit they have more options but I'm not sure you know we actually moved the need of here so so yeah I'll see how it goes for for the next 10 years um more fragmentation for sure um probably bigger level of risk because as institutional come in the risk increase uh because they became much more severe even if rarer so probably we see uh you know quite a few time we getting close to having a kind of contingent type of event I'd say the bet for one such event falling in the next 10 year is not crazy now we've seen it happening few times at small scale um but you know eventually with um bigger players coming into play there will be a point where a major asset fail and is interconnected with a lot of systems and so we have a bit of um 208 moment of defi essentially but yeah it's all about um how demanding we are I really see it as like um 90s internet so 10 years from now would be in 2000 and you know think about 2000 in or Internet timeline that was the beginning of the capture you know so the big players Amazon the Facebook they were all here already and they were gaining market share it wasn't obvious to everyone yet what was going to happen but all the pieces were in place like there was nothing you can do in two or four to stop the internet from becoming what it became now I I think 10 years from now that's will be the same stage for D5 we won't know where the chips were yet but all the moves would have been played on the chess Bo so now it's time to play the move that's cool yeah yeah I like I like his fa like talking about speaking about big companies I think like yeah you can work with us it's permissionless bring them as adoption but remember that we are still cyer punks so yeah no I agree like I mean from the technical perspective I think we will resolve lots of questions and issues that we have currently because technology is not an issue right so this brings me to the next Bingo question because I think it's more this is a more of a philosophical question so just be ready uh essentially like um like as we like we see what's going on in the in the space right we have like regulation against us politicians against us countries trying to sometimes like you know forbid certain operations right like not every jurisdiction is crypto-friendly so it depends where you are a little bit it impacts it may impact your business you may end up in jail but like if we look for example um yeah there was mathematician John Von Norman he asked in 1955 like can we survive technology now I would like to reverse this question and ask like can defy survive us like given like how much stuff we're trying to actually to do to prohibit it so who would like to start well if I was survive for sure if I survive if I Will Survive because we have a strong Community we are here for one uh motive so yeah as Bryce said ux is not good we keep using it we keep surfing with Haw we keeping using it def F Will Survive even though big companies join us def F will will survive I think if there is a large world changing event like for example we saw in like World War One World War II um the ability the defi to move assets around and bring them out of the control of nation states could cause it to kind of become a Target so I do think that it's not like a 100% done thing it' be very hard to put D5 back in the bag right it's out there now people know how to use it Etc but I think that the likelihood of onramps and off-ramps being heavily regulated as they are in the EU now and they will continue to be more and more and more regulated with more and more ID more tracking more things like that I I don't see like you know I think if we do see some fundamental shifts where nation states start to reassert themselves um you could start to see defi being a target for uh for those freedoms right because for example in like World War II tax rates went up to like 90% right so this is significant this is something you'd probably want to not have happened to you right and so if you have an option to go into decentralized finance and you can survive on bitcoin it's great not saying that either one of these things are happening this isn't like a prediction I'm not predicting a war or something um but these are the kind of pressure points that change the Dynamics of the game significantly where something that you were doing or was ignored and was gray suddenly becomes banned right and and very difficult to get around and you know blockchain nodes have repeatable patterns most of crypto is hosted in Amazon AWS so the us could very easily not kill it but cause major interrup ition to the industry right just from one company so you know decentralization these things these are key principles but we do need to think about holistically all of those things without becoming criminals in the process um so that's my two sents yeah I think um defi has lots of potential to to survive and to be truly the one which we want to see permissionless and uh decentralized but of course as has been mentioned everything what is happening in the world and all the regulation all the political situations they might effect and uh we cannot be we never can be 100% sure what the way it will take after and what turn it will take but um I I truly believe that the fire SP space will uh will continue evolving and will be uh even again like on the on the next stage of mass adoption within the next uh 10 years yeah there would always be something on chain but it's a question of proportion you know how many people are just interacting with essentially onchain CI services and what is the share actually using real Defi and it's like nowadays for the internet you know 99% of the traffic of the internet happens on on the clear net on those very boring five platforms 00 1% or even happen on the dark net where people are unrestricted so centralize one massively to the point that most of the people they don't even have the notion that there is another internet what so you know that that's like the extreme of the outcome that we could see for defi essentially if by then maximal captur is achieved so the question is not so much will it survive because Genie is out of the bottle you know there is no stop Unis swap now only if you manage to stop the synchronization of the the smm network itself but else it's over but how many people will be swapping on Unis swap versus bance 10 years from now that's more the interesting question to me and I don't predict sorry that makes sense so we're about to actually finish the panel I would like to just see if anyone in the audience has questions or would like to add something okay so I see someone there all right thank you very much so when you start to onboard people who are not crypto natives you you tell them you know web one was just giving you content then Web Two was uh interaction and then web three was ownership um how does this promise of ownership and ownership needs to be connected with well we can call it rights but let's call it guarantees within the crypto space how does this go hand inand with the lack of governance plutocracy and other things are we betraying what is being sold as the Cornerstone of web 3 as the advancement of web Technologies for expediency and oh you know just it's easier like this I would just like to relate this topic to the fact that a lot of people a lot of a autocratic politicians were really happy how how China handled Co and we're not happy how Democratic societies handle co uh are we ready to for uh you know give up this promise of ownership decentralization and all these different things and just keep the defi name and other D Parts as a marketing Ploy against trafi thank you who would like to take it yeah I think uh plutocracy being attached to ownership is um it's a problem so we have plutocracy um as we know nowadays so one token one vote mostly and then you can sell your decentralization as I said as I mentioned before Unis Swap and a16 is a huge case um on that um I like to approach theocracy where of course it will not solve the plutocracy but it helps to under represented ones being presented in this this ownership case because if money is time and efforts it's also about money why not to owner the the governance to be owner of a protocol through uh my efforts and not only through buying it so I think we need to to look to look carefully to that to this this part because I I like this narrative uh about ownership but we need we need to solve for sure the plutocracy problems otherwise we'll keep selling our decentralization I mean also maybe I can add something like no matter what we do today like it's great that we're making these stdes you know like and to me generally speaking progress is the realization of Utopias yes we have this vision of the utopian world but like each time we get closer or we achieve that Utopia it's not utopian anymore for us so what I see is that like this right like you have currently the protocols different protocols right with certain form of decentralized governance which is great don't get me wrong we have already made this step towards this even though it's plutocratic even though it's very political right like you have basically a bunch of kids trying to be politicians and try to basically enforce to certain extent their views and essentially claim that it's a DA but like basically a bunch of delegates that know each other what in favor of what what one decides to vot for but essentially though it's it's already like a progress that we made to this stage so I think like if we just we just have to keep on moving and improving and trying to see what can make the next POS potential step and never like forget that it's also part of human nature right so like we can't really control control that part like we try to sometimes like watch out for our interests I guess it's the survival mechanism we have in ourselves but in the end of the they like uh we can always improve and I think like this is where we're going towards too and this is great to see like unless any of you has something to add yeah I agree with you like plutocracy exists but we cannot say that unisp doesn't work just because their governance exactly is plutocratic uh exactly that's that's the case but if you don't like if you you have many options you you have to read about other governance models um other defi protocols that you want to all enjoy then though and all in the end of the day not all D5 protocols like have a governance system in place so let's take that into the consideration as well some of them do and majority of them if you look at it not so definitely there's only D part but essentially we still can't judge them because maybe they're also getting to the point where they will enable the governance the centralized governance on their end any other questions or anything you would like to ask uh hi thank you for the the panel it's amazing the topics are interesting I did want to react to the idea that was cited twice that there is no putting the genie out of the bottle uh yeah I I just think it's important it's worth noting that uh things like that happened before I mean uh peer-to-peer file sharing the technology is out there and uh we will never remove from the human knowledge how to do peer-to-peer file sharing although um kind of institution institutional solutions to the actual uh need that was access to music or to movies and series was solved in a different way and it kind of didn't kill peer-to-peer file sharing but it kind of replaced it we still have torrent but but emu is practically dead Cadia is empty and uh the same kind of thing could happen if we're not careful uh navigating the regulations uh that can affect Defi and if we ever reach a point where centralized Solutions play the role of swapping assets and the liquidity becomes goes there then eventually this could be a threat to to defy and so I just wanted to note that this is something worth noting that's the case today the case today is that the majority of trading is happening on Futures markets on binance right all the volume all the market efficiency all the price Discovery right so we got a lot of work to do to prevent not only to prevent that but I would say to get to the point where for example file sharing was the number one way to get content and media for home users on a computer for a long time right because people had I think people were downloading music and stuff all you know as CD drives started to come out so it's a bit different now I think that yeah there's a huge centralized presence I think we're already at that point and we've got a lot of work to do to pull up from there anyway so thank you so much guys it was a pleasure I would like a big Applause to our panelists please yeah thank you so much and yeah if you have any questions feel free to actually stop by and say hi yes and introduce yourself thank you so much once more thank you thank you thank you thank you for listening thank you guys