[CLS] Ethereum Magicians Infinite Endgames: UX | Devcon SEA

[Music] hey everyone uh thank you for joining us so early in the morning uh we appreciate it we know it's been a rough night for some of you um so joining us today are Nia from safe mark from fuse Network H Derek from zerodv Pedro from wallet connect and Cody from base so we're here to talk about ethereum user experience um you know account obstruction is beginning a lot of attention lately and that's because we're trying to solve something that anybody who's been using ethereum for a long time knows is a big challenge which is user experience there's always this tradeoff between user experience and security and trying to kind of Juggle the two in a right way and it feels like we're on the right path but there's still a lot of things to tackle especially as we start looking at you know cross chain now we have this new kind a challenge we need l2s we need rollups for scaling but on the other hand users you know they need to start knowing which chain they're on and how to switch between networks and doing bridging and all kinds of things that even as a technical User it's sometimes daunting to do so that's not really an option if we're talking about mainstream users so we gather here uh some a lot of people who are dealing with this on a daily basis to kind of talk about this topic and you know see where it leads us um so I'll start with kind of like an open-ended question this you know there are obviously many hurdles to econ to user experience in the space but in your eyes what is currently either like the biggest or most important or like like most pressing hurdle for a mainstream adoption sure is this working yeah hey um this may be like not entirely specific to AA but I think um funding is currently a big challenge for our users at least getting uh users wallet funded in the first place so um you know a is great for onboarding users and uh it's a pretty seamless transaction experience but I think we need to get to a space where Native funding is a lot easier using things like debit cards or Apple pay like have it be simple to do just in time funding for transactions um um because especially as like uh embedded wallets like can fragment users funds I think we just need a better solution there um I'm a little biased I I think the funding isn't really necessarily a wallet problem I think it's a blockchain problem um I mean I know it's not a wallet panel but like that's how my brain works and I think on the wallet side which actually influences the user experience the most the the account management is still the biggest problem and we kind of have fragmented ourselves because obviously it's a decentralized uh Network and there's no single product manager overseeing everything there's like thousands and we need to kind of coordinate that like accounts now are very fragmented and reaching truly Universal accounts is going to be a problem like mobile wallets have one version of it like MPC has one version of it browser wallets are kind of like you know the first type of wallets and then embedded wallets come and then they do something completely different and now accounts are just like completely fragmented in different types and all of these wallet types should just be the same instance of the same account there should be like just one universal account sure you can create multiple accounts because you want a dgn a gaming one a social one or whatever but the account design needs to be truly Universal across all chains across everything yeah I think if you were talking about the obstacles to adoption you know I think we can talk about the adoption of crypto in general and then the the adoption of AA which are two which are two different things right so the the adoption of crypto in general is actually I don't in my opinion not primarily blocked by the lack of ux which there is right but rather by the lack of super compelling onent use cases right so I think like throughout the history of tech you know whenever a tech is solving a great problem it doesn't really matter how hard it is to use people try to use it right so like the fact that there are still so few people on TR right now I think is primarily because there are still a very big lack of super compelling on use cases uh if you are talking about the Obstacle of adopting AA I think the biggest well the two well I think the single biggest obstacle is just the fact that today is impossible to use a reaction on a what is you already use such as metamask right so despite all the benefits of AA um no one wants to move all their assets you know from their Ledger from from the from their metamask into a new into a new wage so and that's why you know I think everyone here is super excited about 72 right which will finally bring the benefits of AA to uh to the average crypto user oh works so I think that we don't have a technology problem we have um business problem um and specifically trying to I I I think in this cycle relative to the last cycle things became a little bit more product Le in the last cycle it was primarily developer Le and I think uh you know now we see signs of actually trying to solve the the business problem of getting uh users in growing the pie and I think the protocol is not like the main question for um why should we adopt you know this technology or that technology um trying to do like the perfect protocol call is not necessarily a way to sell to customers I think that we're at this point where things are complicated enough to hide them under the hood so I think like the best products out there make people's life simpler and unfortunately at the moment with blockchain or crypto it's actually making people's lives harder and I agree with Derek here we need more solid compelling use case which actually make which actually wants which actually people make want a use of the crypto Network and at the moment like if somebody really wants to use crypto they would go through the hurdles of getting the gas they would go through the hurdles of setting up an account and these are the people who maybe want to make a quick money maybe but we need more compelling use cases okay thank you for that and so yeah there's also I think the the it could also be said that it's kind of like a chicken and an neeg problem in some sense yes I agree there's not the business case but sometimes maybe someone did create a compelling business case and the ux was just so terrible that nobody could use it and personally I think that maybe the one thing that for what Derek said that even if the ux is terrible people will still do it if it you know provides them value so I guess that's defi right now right because I mean like people were even trading like an ether Delta back in 2017 even though it was really hard because they what you know they saw the value and but I want to expand a little bit on what Pedro said in terms of the account fragmentation take us a bit more to the ux so that is something I'd love to hear your thoughts on because one of the things I've noticed in the space is around embedded wallets so we made it thanks to account abstraction onboarding now like Cody said is super smooth right it's like you use your fingerprint you don't know about anything about private Keys you don't have gas with pay masters everything really great we got to the promised land but now we introduced a different problem is this kind of like wallet fragmentation right we're fragmenting identity we're fragmenting liquidity I'm just wondering what is your take on that in terms of like what do we do about that if anything can be done that bad huh thank you for the mic um I'm going to go a little bit back to the compelling use cases before I talk about the count fragmentation Maybe I'm just being a little um too pragmatic but like even if if we just cancel everything in the road map and we just put defi like ethereum is going to be Defi and nothing else that for me is already a compelling use case I'm obviously going to be biased by my background in fintech but we do everything like 10x better and you know you need to be 10x better to justify a user to switch but we're thinking too much from like oh it is 10x better as an offering but the accessibility means that you have to climb a mountain uh with a backpack full of rocks and it's going to be good when you get to the peak and that kind of scares people away because the reason all of these Banks actually own all of finan is because you can just go downstairs and like open a bank account even though they have a terrible experience at the end so I don't think we need compelling use cases we already have compelling use cases but we have to to ask people to climb a mountain and in the account of fragmentation I think it plays a big role into that uh like if you're telling people that like oh your accounts is one thing here and another thing here and then I'm offering you the whole world of ethereum but actually it's fragmented at the wallet level then the whole composability offering of ethereum was gone and we might as well just go back to Silo deps because yeah yes we did not Silo apps at the blockchain layer but we did Silo it at the wallet layer and the user lives in the wallet layer so for them it is silot there's no composability like we broke the composability at the wallet so we can scale and make inability between the change but the wallets are fragmented period like the user doesn't feel the composability anymore and you feel like that's do you have any ideas on maybe how we can tackle this I I spend I don't know if you guys seen my Twitter account but I write more tweets about erc's than even about won maybe I should write more about won but like I think erc's are the way to go like everything that you work in your job whether you're a designer or product or engineer maybe not in the other departments can be an ERC like you can literally make an ERC out of everything that's the beauty of it and the beauty of an ERC is that as I mentioned to you like there's no product manager in the whole eterium system everyone is their own product manager in a way but by writing an ERC we can share the scope of the project together and we can write the project scope and we can project manage together but if everyone is writing in their little notion docks or Apple notes like we're not going to get there like everyone is just kind of like siloing the information and have split road maps I feel like like I feel like this something that we can talk for a long time about you know and um but but basically like okay so you know I know we talking about ux right you know but since you mention yis you know so so I think I think um personally I feel like we also have like a ERC fragmentation problem right just like World fragmentation right uh which is that I feel like you know like I'm all fors you know you know I'm obviously you know part of like some some some as well but I do feel like sometimes we have the tendency to standardize too early I think standardizing too early is just as dangerous and just as bad as standardizing too late right because you are you are um what's the word you're like aify a particular approach before the market like before a particular solution has even been proven on the market right so I feel like you know like even in AA you know like you see things about modulus SM accounts where it's like there's like you know a bunch of different competing standards because people try to standard because people try to standardize too early right you know you know and then like the the products who actually got uh traction later after the first YC was proposed felt the needs to then propose their own YC because they actually had rection right so I feel like sometimes like when you do y's ahead of traction you actually like you you might you might think you're are solving fragmentation the fragmentation problem but you're actually creating a deeper a deeper fragmentation problem early because now you have like different projects fighting between different yasis so personally I I you know I actually think that uh we should try to find a balance between you know obviously like trying to create interoperability between the solutions but also not try to kind of like you know try to um enshrine some approach too early before the solutions have actually been played out on the market uh so that's on the yasis um and then on the back to your your original your original question about um fragmentation the fragmentation between wallets right yeah so um so personally I'm not too concerned about the the fragmentation between embedded wets because of two reasons so one is that like I work very deep I work very you you know like our company zero death works very closely with um the leading embedded World players right like previe Dynamic blah blah blah um so I know as a fact that they're all exploring and trying to build Global W Solutions right so by global W I mean you know W you can take to other deps W that will you know be be the St across different deps so I think like they're trying to solve the problem and like um you know and that's possible by the way like you know like thanks to um a lot of like the the Innovations in account Direction especially session keys right because if you want to use the same wallets across different applications but then still have I guess uh but then still be able to provide security guarantees for the user you need session keys to isolate the wallets between different applications right you know so uh that's been helpful um and then like the second reason why I'm not why why I'm not worried about it is because I think I always see embedded wallets as just a temporary solution right you know so sorry like not not temporary solution in the sense that there won't be runs in the future but rather in the in the sense that I see them as just like the first step in a users user Journey right so I think like people they get on boarded within bed wallets but they would then be at some point be on boarded to a actual standard long wet right so I feel like once again you know 712 comes out and once like the stand on wets actually become smart accounts I think uh we won't be worrying about the fragmentation problem as much you know just because people will actually have stand along AA wat is that uh AA wat is that they can use I also agree that um I think that there's no real fragmentation problem because the um the pi is not getting bigger um and also we're confusing our investors as our customers so I think that um when we talk about account obstruction we talk about actual consumers right now the way you people use blockchains they need to understand what is the opportunity cost they need to understand you know a lot of technical jargon and I don't think those people necessarily that complain about fragmentation or complain about uh you know uix are necessarily the the actual end user H they're the investors there are people that are maybe more Technical and there's like a big herd that is following the technical people and the investors so um and and the pie over the last year didn't grow that much so if the pie grows and new customers will come and actual consumers consumers don't pay for gas ER and they don't also want to learn or you know we don't want to create new habits we want to give them the habits they know already so it's a totally different type of of customer that we don't have in crypto right now at a large scale yet um so I think there are like two parallels running here one for the ear see fragmentation one on the wallet ux embedded wallets so maybe if I touch on the embedded wallet side I think the ux that it offers for web 2 users or new users to crypto is pretty good like you enter an app you don't have to worry about downloading some browser extension or having some app on your phone you're in the environment of an app you sign up you have a wallet boom pretty sweet right maybe for crypto native users this is is not what we expect we want to be more in control of our funds but people out there don't really think like that they actually trust in the app that they use unlike us who are like skeptical of everything so I think like there's I would put my bets on embeded wallets I think they will get better and probably one of the ways in which we can improve crypto ux on the other parallel that's running on fragmentation standardization is pretty pretty good and I think there are s standards out there which point towards the same outcome but different philosophies and that also creates fragmentation so it's like a Inception of uh standardization and fragmentation and how do you come out of it like buyin like you either work on these standards together or you Lobby outside of these standards which is also happening but it kind of creates a toxic almost a toxic or a very competitive environment in which you want your standard to win and that's that's not a that's quite a zero sum game in my opinion actually I want to just respond to that just one second I think that actually sometimes competition is good and it actually speaks to what Derek said about uh kind of like pre-designing everything in advance sometimes this competition between two or three competing standards I think can you know can breed good I guess it's all about how it's done right it can be toxic it can be positive uh um sometimes people want their standard to win because they have monetary gain from it sometimes it's very ideological because they truly believe that this is the correct way doesn't mean they're right by the way it's still but you're right it it it depends on how it's done but uh sorry Cody or Derek you want to go ahead yeah I think I think I think I think like I just want to clarify my stancing that like I'm not against I'm of course not against yasis and I also don't fult people for uh creating yasis early right you know I think their intentions are good um what I'm trying to say is that I feel like as a space I feel like we need to I feel like we should do a better job at not shaming companies who don't appear to be embracing YC's immediately right you know because like sometimes like there's I see a lot of like finger pointing when whenever like there's a company who's building something not on top of like some Open Standards and then people and then people are like oh you know like why you not building on top of ESC blah blah blah blah but sometimes the reason is just because they are trying to iterate right like they are trying to build the best solution for the customers first for the users first to try to prove out the to try to proof out their Solutions first before they make a yasi right you know so so I just feel like sometimes it's not so much that um it's not like like like the problem is not just that people are creating yis early is that like there's almost like this community pressure of like just just like shaming projects who don't appear to be super enthusiastic about the existing y's and not embracing them immediately you know so so so so that's my point yeah no I I I think I agree with Derek here um I think I think there's a constant uh balance you have to strike between trying to meet these standards but also you know ship value to your users immediately like like you only we only have so many resources to to build things um so yeah we have concerns around uh or or I'm concerned a little bit around embracing these standards too early and instead of just building features that our our users need right now um sorry for shaming ourc I'm super guilty I literally do that all the time and I don't even do it privately I do it very publicly like I really push really hard and aggressively to everyone to write a standard or to use a standard like I hope that wasn't like very targeted but literally it's really important that people understand that the process of ercs is incredibly malleable it's not something static it's not something that you can and I think you touched something really interesting like is ANC an outcome or a philosophy and I think people get too caught up that an ERC is a specific approach rather than a specific outcome like some ercs that I've worked with have changed like four or five versions like if you go through the GitHub history it looks nothing like it version after version but at least you had one number that everyone said I am part of the CRC I am sharing this CRC with the community and one of the ways that has successfully happen this is people don't get too caught up of who are the offers like the best drcs out there have like 10 to 20 offers the problem is when an ERC has like two or three offers and then these two or three offers are saying this is my ERC and that basically becomes like a philosophical and almost like an ego Journey rather than saying we share this outcome and I don't think you need to force your product to use an ERC but I think your product needs to think that it will use an ERC and needs to be part of the journey early of the ERC so that you can comment and say I don't like how this ERC is going here's my feedback from my own product experience and then you participate and if you do that I would add you as an offer right away just because you made a comment like because now this is our ERC and I think the PE the way people people do RC's is the problem is not the RC's themselves there there's stages there's draft there's review there's Final Call like there's a whole product management of the ERC and some people kind of just take a little too personal this is my ERC and I just want to add don't feel shy about continuing this subject because I feel it touches on something which is very relevant to the advancement of ux and ethereum which is coordination which is something that I think we can all agree is a challenge right now um but there it seems like you you you have something you want to say or can I can continue I thought you raise your hand so uh let's take this opportunity about erc's just one last thing maybe there are a lot of erc's in this you know ecosystem which are very beneficial for ux some of the people here are think most of the people here are authors or involved in those erc's on some levels so I want to take this opportunity if each one of you can share one ERC that they think is really like interesting and important in the ux standard I know some of you what your answers will be but I don't know if everybody knows what your answers will be so it's a good chance to kind of like maybe tell people about them keep it short right then this is not about getting on a so boox and uh giving a 10-minute lecture on your ERC but you know just share what you think is important right now yeah I mean I think I'll probably give a pretty obvious one but 7702 is really important to us uh we you know oh is it not an ERC oh man EIP shoot uh no it can be in the AP as well that's fine all right we're going to go with 7702 yeah you know we just there there are a lot of users right now using EAS that um obviously we want to give them the benefits of AA so we we need to get those users migrated over so uh I'll be the last one you go first right H I have a ban example erc20 and we try to kind of um innovate a few years ago and use RC 667 and uh I think rc20 is a good example of like Simplicity and you know you add complexity you add hacks people stole money you know we had to revert back to to your C20 um and it also shows that not the perfect protocol wins or like not maybe the the nicest it also about Simplicity uh and you know http p 2 is trying to replace http1 for like two decades already H and people settle for the good enough so I think if you know ethereum is like kind of the HTTP of money H there's some stuff that need to be Bedrock H and some stuff that are a lot trial over trial and error and think this is like the advantage of permissionless innovation but some things need to stay simple so um well lately I have a crush on 7702 because it's like migrating all Eos to Smart accounts but I think it started um ux started with 4337 for me because it enabled gas list payments it enabled pay masters bundas bash transactions basically putting Smart in accounts um I'm also a fan I'm not super nice at remembering random numbers but there's a ERC uh that gets wallet capabilities thank you I like that one that's from wallet connect um but but I really like the concept it makes developers lives easier so when we talk about ux we should not only think about the users but we should also think about developers the product people and that hits the nail on its head so yeah what's the name of the ERC with the plugins um six six 7579 yeah yeah 7579 and 6900 those are the two 6900 yeah um like I think you know like I don't remember the exact number you know but I think there are starting to be attempts you I think actually also um uh by like like uh like one of them is by what connect to solve a very important problem which is um the fact that as chain Abra it w it becomes a thing uh it's hard for the de to correctly read the balance of the wallet right so if my wallet has 100 usdc on base um 7811 okay uh 7811 apparently yeah um and then yeah so if my if if my wallet has 100 usds on base but then I'm connecting to a polygon dep today there's no way for the dep to know the fact that my wallet can actually pay the money even though it doesn't appear to have money on polygon right so I think like there are a number of different approaches to solving this problem you know so I think um like so I'm generally excited I'm gen generally excited about Ying that's uh you know uh you know they try to solve that problem yeah I'm glad that everyone said a bunch of ercs that I was going to say so I can say the last one in my list uh which is 7715 which allows uh wallets to Grant permissions for the app to actually act on the behalf of the wallets with certain policies that are enforced uh by the smart contract yeah so session you mean like session keys in in a sense yeah yeah more like smart sessions because it doesn't necessarily have to be Keys yeah okay smart sessions sorry um so um so going back to the what Derek said about the yeah there's a question but it's not do rail necessarily uh so going back to what Derk said about the fragmentation of asset that's also a very interesting topic as we get to chain abstraction I'm going to move us away a little bit from erc's I think we so when we're talking about chain abstraction uh and this kind of like fragmentation of assets so we've seen some interesting Solutions come out of it usually using the word magic there's magic there's magic spend and there's that's an interesting approach what what are your thoughts on you know in general about how do we solve this problem of like what you said Eric that you go on one chain and you want to know how much balance you have on another chain stuff like that sorry so so the so the question is how do we solve which problem so the fragmentation of assets when we I'm starting to shift a little bit more into talking about cross chain sure sure yeah you know I think I think it's like a very active U research area right now you know I think a lot of teams you know I think zero one of them is U very actively exploring the approaches um so but generally speaking right like the idea of a chain abstracted smart account is basically combining two technologies so smart account and intent right so we are starting to have a very fast intense based SL liquidity based Bridges such as across relay blah blah blah uh that can so it's like basically you know basically like fundamentally like what this chain objective what is are doing I mean like not like not often but a lot of them like what they're doing is that they're essentially just bridging your assets through a liquidity bridge and then making the transaction right and because the liquidity bridge is so fast your transaction time goes from maybe 2 seconds if it was on the same train to maybe like 4 seconds if it's cross chain but it's still very much within the realm of you know what users are comfortable with right yeah so so so so so that's like the really high level I guess intro to how CH SM accounts work you know but like there are many many different approaches that's I can dive into if we have time yeah so in this panel I feel like there's a big focus on wallets obviously because of everyone who's involved but chain obstruction actually comes with two problems uh one is the authorization layer which you just described on the attent and I think you know there's been some good work in there but I think it's fundamentally blocked with like the actual asset fragmentation so the liquidity layer is really hard to optimize because even if you have like the best intent um structure like in place and every wallet supports intense like tokens are completely fragmented and that's another source of fragmentation that needs to be solved but I would say that everyone in this panel actually is not default for that because it's out of scope of everyone else's project token fragmentation is something that needs to be solved at the bridge blockchain and token issuer layer and that actually would make like intents substantially much easier to design because every design with intents is really really hard to do with like all of the token fragmentation and whether the token is Bridge or is a native token and like if it's evm or non evm it becomes really really hard and that's something that is completely blocking so when we think about the construction we really have to think single chain because the moment it becomes multi chain there's multiple problems to solve one of them being intense and account management across cross chain but the token fragmentation is quite a heavy problem just to clarify like when we say token fragmentation you're talking about like you're talking about the fact that for for example for usdc there's like native usdc USD like usdc like is talking about there's actually two problems to it right so when you think about the token what do you guys think a ticker like ticker is the the thing that defines a token so let's say usdc how many USC's are there there should be only one right as a user I only care about usdc you don't go and think like how many types of Euros or dollars or pounds exist like there's only one version of it that's not true in blockchain like usdc even though they did this massive upgrade for usdc v2 where they try to make it as native as possible across multiple Chains It's still not truly native this is like probably the most inable token in this space and it's still not native everywhere so that means that in the tokens which is not native there's like bridged vers verion of it and for every bridg version of it you could have multiple usdc versions in the same chain so you don't even know if it has the same address if it has the same liquidity if it has the same risk assumptions because it's bridged through different issuers and this issuer bridge fragmentation causes like a token fragmentation so I think that um um I think that one of the one of the things that we're ignoring is uh like the reason l2s exist right now is because people want cheaper guess but I think uh different types of customers will use different l2s and there would be different types of transactions and different types of tokens and I think you know some people want to move a million dollars across continents and they need the trust guarantees of an L1 and they need like to be the most close like the most secure way to to transfer value and some other people want to pay you know5 for a coffee and uh they want to be able to maybe reverse this transaction and they need instant clearing H they don't want to put anything on chain because you know what's the point of announcing a global settlement Network that I bought coffee um so I I feel like there's like a maximalist approach in uh in crypto where everything needs to be like I I think we we had this debate in 2017 with private blockchains you know it was H this false dichotomy let's put everything on the blockchain let's put nothing if it needs to be decentralized nothing needs to be decentralized and right now we're trying to find the sweet spot in the middle but really the the I don't see anyone talking about um I don't know offchain transactions really when we're not even at this stage I think we're at the layer two and what I'm talking about is layer three four five and you know finances built by layers so uh we're not even at the point where we actually need to address those issues yet so that's my my take like fragmentation is not really like a big problem until we have you know all those use cases trying to work on the same L1 trying to settle to the same L1 I think you're right that the motivation for the fragmentation was like cheaper gas and more accessibility for these tokens but the the actual problem was caused early on when we're designing everything around the blockchain and not around the asset because if you designed uh assets to be like a primitive of the blockchain then they would actually be treated differently like for example with ethereum we have a very different use case it's the native currency in prematch all EVMS so you do not have this problem with token fragmentation as much because it's treated as a special asset because tokens are treated just like any other smart contract they end up inheriting all the problems the smart contries have in fragmenting across chains so if tokens are treated as a special class in the blockchain you can still benefit from all the cheap or private versions of the token but still have one canonical version of the token and that actually is what caused the problem even though the motivation for fragmentation was cheaper gas privacy and all of that um I I just want to add something else to the mix when we're talking about this fragmentation there's also an additional fragmentation that comes about with smart contract wallets which unfortunately this wasn't a problem with EAS due to their Simplicity which is the key fragmentation as well it's like now we have additional issues with the fact that you know you have to deploy the smart contract on each Network and if a network you haven't deployed yet on it's your key is in a sense could be still valid for it without your knowledge if you replace your key now you have to replace it even on networks that haven't been created yet and it's kind of like a h funky situation I'd love to hear your thoughts also on that in addition like do you think that's also something that we'll solve with additional layers or actually we have to go back to layer one and and plus everything there or different L2 or what do you think about the key identity fragmentation as well alongside everything else we've been talking about yeah I'll I'll go real quick yeah I think this is a big issue um that that we're seeing because uh users you know the way a lot of smart walls are built right now is just through a pass key that um you know is inherent across all chains because it's it's when it's the account's deployed like it's the the owner on the account but as you want to add new signers and uh you know whatever risk profile the user may have they want to secure their account um we need to make sure that these signers are valid across all chains which is a a hard problem to solve um one thing that I'm excited about is like minimal key store rollups uh that vitalic has talked about too um where we can sync these changes across chains um I I I don't think we're there yet implementation wise um but I think there's a there's a pathway to get there yeah I think I think U key key stores are generally recognized to be the end game to solve to to solving their problem right you know so I think you know actually been chading about you you know chatting with a few teams at Defcon who are working on Keyes U my impression is that I think people are optimistic that's by Q2 next year here we have production ready key stores right you know so I think like the the one the base is working on is actually one of the the most promising Solutions right now you know yeah yeah so so so once you have a key store uh there won't be a problem like like there won't be a problem anymore yeah so yeah yep uh yeah I think key store rollups is definitely the answer but like each day a new L2 is announced and somewhere out there somebody's still announcing an L2 and I think the one that brings it all together or converges everything will probably be a key store roll up hopefully we don't uh mess it up again by changing the philosophy or something like that with keyo rollups but divided identity I'm not sure if it's still 100% going to be solved with keyo rollups but definitely an effort in that direction and something at safe we are very actively looking into one thing that I can add is uh that um trying to imagine how how a billion people using blockchains will look like and uh trying to kind of reverse from that like reverse engineer from that or uh it's it's it's really a difficult exercise um uh and I do think that l2s in the future would be sort of the equivalent of spinning up a server um you know you can buy or you can rent um so if you don't want to have your own dedicated infrastru structure uh then you can you know just use a public cloud and the for open banking it's a real big challenge to build um public banking clouds so I think that you know billion people using blockchains probably means there's going to be a lot more you know all the jobs we see today is web two um product is a web two concept um um SEO promoters didn't exist before web 2 Community managers didn't exist before web2 web2 created a lot of new jobs that we didn't really imagine uh even 20 years ago um so I think that the problems that we think are the problems are not necessarily what we need to solve to get to billion people so that that that's my take it's a bit abstract but yeah I I I I just want to like maybe like add add a few words about key stes um I think I think there are actually like two problems with key stores that are relatively unsolved uh so so so one is like the economics of key stores right you know like someone used to be running the key store operator uh you know and and and since the keys is going to be a z Rob up right like the cost of running is just not going to be trivial so I think like I still haven't met a team that's is building key up but also has like a good answer as to how they're going to make that e to make to make keeping that K St Rob running uh economically sustainable you know so I'm just curious if like anyone even in the audience you know who has some thoughts about it um I mean it's very hard to spin up a new blockchain and even on L2 uh so we're basically kind of just bootstrapping as EVMS but let's be honest do we really need an evm for a Kyer rollup we don't like we could make like the whole cost of a ky rollup like 10 times or 100 times cheaper if it's like a specialized machine that like virtual machine that literally just does key store mappings and management like that is the solution but as you said like we we have to work with what we have and we'll use EVMS and we cost like 100 times more than it's necessary but then one day we will realize oh we have like this rollup that runs three smart contracts just encode the three smart contracts into the actual like like machine code like go as close to the machine as possible and don't do to ring complete like smart contracts it's so un nonsense so you're saying basically you know hopefully like 10 years from now this is just like an inherent cost when you anyone who is paying for a transaction they're in a way subsidizing the key management of everybody or something like that which I tend to agree by the way because H that is something I Tred to tackle back in like 2018 2019 with poris and it just didn't make sense who's going to pay for this who the key the user won't pay for managing their keys the daps won't who who should so you're saying the network should no like I'm saying that the ker R first of all we're kind of like exaggerating the cost of a ker roll up you only need to touch it every time you need to update it like if you add a new device or if you add a new chain that's when you actually need to touch the key roll it's not like you need to touch it at every transaction but but but but but the point is exactly that since there are so few actual key updates operations the sequencer the operator of the rup is not going to make enough Revenue to offset but we just said we're going to do a 1 billion users that's a lot of key Store updates that's like not just maintaining the data keeping it high availability for everybody and you know there's even the security element around that you know you don't want to just it needs to be on the network which is there's a you know a financial motivation to keep it secure because that's the best way to secure what if fire blocks was a blockchain what fire blocks was a blockchain uh you got to look so happy he's so happy now I love that question I hope far blocks likes yeah for the audience back home he said he loves that question um okay so do you guys want to say something oh sorry yes yeah um you want to okay I just uh I actually wanted to make like a a weird plug pitch announcement thing you were uh speaking earlier about eips and standards and I always like to emphasize uh belligerently that eips are not standards even if they're final and implemented only only node level eips become standards because they get hard forked in anything above is optin it's never standardized eips are just specifications that went through a process and got published so uh ux ideas user stories mockups flows can be eips they can go through the document process erc's they sorry they could be ER well ERC is a subset anyways uh they could be they could be published as documents by the process so you can use ethereum magicians to put out user stories multiple solutions to one problem definitions of a problem these are all things that you can do in the open to design in the open or to Rally developers around an idea something becomes a standard when there are multiple competing companies or even entire ecosystems using the same design but it it being a final ERC doesn't make it a standard it just makes it a design that was published so I just as as the guy on eath magicians who reads every single Thread about ux just put ux in the title I will see it I will give feedback to anything about ux like please design in public everyone uh Z zero sub economics isn't the best way to do design so so you're actually you're raising an interesting point and if the the person controlling the question from the audience can scroll down please I saw uh a question before that was actually relevant it's kind of like a counter argument to what you're saying I want to hear your thoughts on that can you scroll down please so can someone actually vote on that question so it goes on to the top can you oh yeah or okay here here H here it is scroll a little bit up just a little bit up too much uh no go go back up you had the question it was just like you scroll too much down a little bit more oh there it is so um I guess it starts there so you're someone asked like what's your thought on product Le product Le protocol development is erc's convention the reason we have not so many apps what uh why no RC ERC equivalent in web 2 product Market fit is already so hard why focus on standardizing pre product Market fit I will say that you know the equivalent web to I guess is rfc's yeah but rfc's are also usually something you don't just spin out an RFC for every like little thought that people have right it's like usually internet yeah but it's like no but I'm saying like it's interesting question because you might even say you know in a way maybe it dilutes the meaning of an ERC or an EAP if every random thought in one person's head is this the way we want to like truly collaborate right from every little thought that a person has that's I think that's really it's a really good question it's actually three questions um but I think that uh one of the the interesting things about rfps is that they were monetized by big corporations you know there's a lot of HTTP you know standards and nobody's doing that with ercs yeah no no no that that's the whole idea so you you basically what happened like with oou for instance is that it was created by this public standards body and then Facebook monetized it and it's like literally how it come to to be used really oidc I think it means oidc more like Facebook totally conquered oidc yeah yeah oh or o ATC yeah yeah yes so I I think that uh that web 3 has a like a lot more rapid a lot more open like a lot more democratic approach and everybody can commercialize anything they want but they the like it's a much easier you know way to reach to the market to to reach consumers and I think that uh that what people don't understand the minute you start doing like product Le stuff or or more like business Le stuff and um and uh you know you try to think who will pay for this like actually that's like you you don't really especially in crypto you don't really know what you're selling until somebody pays for it I think it's a it's a good rule in business in general um and I think that if we're looking at the you know L2 saving gas cost if we already T talked about that um I don't think ethereum is more expensive than stripe right now and you know there are some cases where businesses pay 9% payment fees and they're they're happy to pay it may maybe not happy but they're they're they're willing yeah they're willing and and even more than that like they can't say anything against it because uh you know there's not a lot of Alternatives it's not like there's like a lot like there's three companies control the payments industry in North America one of them is doing 1% of of US GDP in processing uh it's a data game and it's it's costing a lot more than $3 billion that ethereum collects this collects as fees each year it makes a say I think the biggest private company or the second biggest company in the world and there the reason it's private um and when you realize that we we didn't almost didn't scratch the surface on those uh on those um uh Pro you know markets whole markets Untouched by crypto really yet I want to hear just one more person talk about if they want to about this whole thing and then let's move on to maybe EAP 1 7702 which everybody's very happy about so uh anybody else have any thoughts on this kind of like trade-off between ear see all the things or just wait until product Market fit yeah you know I think like yeah we probably shouldn't spend too much time on this you know but but just to reiterate what was saying earlier right like I think the problem is not so much that people are making yis you you can't really stop people from making yis the problem is as a community when is is when we as a community uh shim ande and preure projects into prematurely embracing certain YC's even when the best solution the best approach has not been actually figured out right you know so I think I think that is the big problem right you know so I think yeah yeah you know so that's my that's my thought U maybe a tiny comment um I think this question is very much geared towards like consumer apps and the kind of ux topics that we are discussing here that a web two user wouldn't even acknowledge these topics that we are working so hard towards we are solving stuff like how to do cross chain messaging or communication or I want to have gas and if we if we talk about this to a consumer app a typical user of a consumer app they'll be like what are you guys still doing this what's your whole industry doing what are what what's everyone working on and then I think that's why comparing web 3 to web 2 is too nent at the moment but we're getting there we're getting there I don't want to be a cynic okay so um going back to like uh you you know existing eaps so um I'd like to hear your thoughts on EAP 7702 and I know a lot of you like it but I also would like to hear if you have any thoughts what you don't like about it and like what are your thoughts in General on E 7702 I like the fact that c devs included for the first time in history a wallet IP that's what I like I I just don't like 7702 specifically but it doesn't matter like because it's a win right it's a win we got in to something like we've been designing wallet experience around the RC's and we're reaching like the limit of how much user experience we can provide without touching the blockchain and fortunately we were able to push the cevs to get 3074 we brought back from the dead the 307 before that was like almost 3 years in silence and then the community wasn't happen with 374 which is fine and then it brought back 772 as a replacement 374 but it was a win we got cevs to care about wallets even though if Pedra specifically wished that 772 was different it was a massive achievement I think 7702 is pretty good for EA users who want to begin using using smart Accounts at the moment there are so many frictions like if you have n asset classes in your eoa you have to be signing like n number of signatures to P to a Smart account and God forbid if your smart account is on several chains you might have to you know deploy signers on every single chain maybe those smart accounts have different addresses and the ux problems go on like um there's no end to it but 772 gives you gas sponsorship batch transactions permissions that enables all of this in a very seamless ux environment and how is this going to happen I'm not sure overnight but maybe there's going to be Network effects into it some wallets start doing it other wallets catch on some apps begin uh incorporating it other apps do it we might see some more killer use cases which pushes the effort of migrating from an EA to a Smart account but in general like we we at safe see a vision where every smart account every eoa is a smart account or in every onchain account is a smart account yeah um plus one there I I think like 772 is great because we want to bring a billion people into this ecosystem right and like a lot of them have EAS today um but I think it introduces a lot of product complexity uh when it comes to like supporting function ality across EAS and smart wallets for these 7702 users uh and also inherently like a 772 wallet has a little bit more of a risk profile than a standard 4337 wallet um that I don't think users necessarily like will understand um so yeah I think there's risk but at the same time it is kind of cool like 772 out of the box you users get a fully self- custodial smart wallet uh whereas like to do that with a lot of smart wallet implementation today you have to add additional signers to become you know get off domain specific pass keys and things like that so um overall excited I think there are some risks yeah I think I think maybe I will talk about like a very specific issue with sams2 I mean I mean I mean first of all I mean obviously like you know I'm a huge fan of Samson I I think it's like a great thing for space but um there's like a specific um implication of its design uh which is that it gives uh the power entirely to the wallet to decide what Logic the user smart account will be running right so the way that 72 works is that in order to upgrade your uh EA to a Smart account account you need to produce a specific type of a specific type of signature and in order to do that uh you need first of all obviously access to the private key which only the W has but secondly uh it's a special type of signing that is not available today which means that W needs to explicitly uh Implement and enable that type of signing so so so so so so T of of what I'm trying of what I'm trying to say is that if I am a application and someone takes a ea to me right like someone connects to my app with a ea there's no way for me to really you know install some kind of functionality or even suggest to install some kind of functionality uh to the wallet right you know so that's why the adoption of 772 in practice will likely be very much Boton necked by how fast the leading world is like metamask and coinbase embrace it so even if like all the applications in the world are super super hyped about just like you know like using smart account features like gu sponsorship transaction badging transaction automation um immediately we still need to we still all need to wait for the leading wallets like metamask and conbase to embrace it before those used cases can actually be be U you know be built but I have a question for you the problems that you describe about EIP 772 specific signatures and transactions how are they any different than 4237 user operations well I mean like right now you don't really need the consent of metamask to sign a 437 operation right I I like 437 like metamask can already sign a 437 use operation metamask today cannot sign a 7702 upgrade like they literally cannot you know because like the like the like the this the the message type is different yeah but you only need it to assign the delegation right and then afterwards you can actually produce uh signature so so so the what is today they cannot produce a valid 772 upgrades but that's because it hasn't gone into production right like 772 is not even live guys like no no no no no no no it's not just the fact that 2 is not in production it's the fact that even if it was in production like you cannot just take a w today and then ask them to produce a message for you they can upgrade your your EA and that and that's like a huge difference between between 437 right you because with 437 every single water today can already sign a US operation but in order for them to signs a valid 772 upgrade transaction the W needs to explicitly be upgraded to support it but that's because you guys deploy the smart contract on the behalf of the EAS right like so because you do have the SDK that controls the the kernel and everything then the the EA is just Aigner on your 4237 implementation specifically so it's like the other way around right we're moving the the smart account logic into the wallet versus being living in the app that's the I think that's the the the challenge here right where the wallet takes ownership over the smart account sure sure yeah yeah but but you know I think I think I think the like I think the overall point that I'm making is just that you know with you know 437 since is a you know um like like 437 can in a sense be adopted you know without the consent of the wallet right you know because like you know I mean I mean I mean I mean that's like that's what's happening today right like applications have embraced 437 what is have not but with 72 it's kind of like the other way around that you need the wallet to explicitly support Z2 uh before the before the users can can rip the benefits so if I can just add a little more color to that so with the CIP they introdu this new transaction type type four right and at the moment uh like for our demo what we did was like we pasted plain text private key to make sure that the wallet is able to grant that sign authorization transaction which is pretty bad but at the moment there's no wallet out there which is like exposing this sign authorization functionality and I feel like maybe wallets will get keep this I don't know maybe they will monetize this functionality not sure but at the moment yeah right now with all demos it's like plain text private key because the only place where wallet uh where private key is is in the wallet and right now it's not exposed to the app developer at at all I feel like that's a feature right because then it gives ownership to the wallet like I think the the the problem but maybe that's debatable of 4237 is that it doesn't give much ownership to the wallet which then you know it can be gatekeep as you said and you know the fact that it doesn't support type four transaction is just a matter of time like remember uh 1559 like it took a while for wallet to support it but as soon as it hit main net people supported it so you know as soon as 7702 hits main it everyone is going to support type four transactions but I think the problem that we're describing is not whether they support type for or not is whether you have any control and the wallet essentially takes over the 772 flow I I can say something from the wallet Builder side because I'm I'm less involved in in in making those erc's I'm more more involved in picking them and using them and I I think when RC 4337 uh was released we've been using you know we've been doing a count of fraction for 5 years uh since the gas station network days relay services and looked at everything that moves that has to do with account obstruction so I think uh looking at the like I'm I want to like conserve my enthusiasm about new stuff especially adopting new stuff too early um we've been refactoring our wallet on a constant basis for the last few years H always uh trying to like go one step forward two steps backwards honestly it's it's very slow because of you know this fragmentation of uh of standards and things not being backwards compatible and so I think everybody are looking for a signal so 7702 uh is uh definitely consent in consensus right now and there's like hype around it I I heard yesterday from from the polygon guys we work on polygon we um run a CK chain uh they're going to support it uh natively um but I don't think that would bring billion users to crypto um I I maybe my uh uh controversial take or spicy take I I I think for panels needs to be interesting so my belief is that maybe I'm wrong that EA wallets or metamask type of usage will re reach a glass ceiling ER it would not reach anywhere close to billion users there would be a different kind kind of usage on top of that ER and we can call it you know any future RC maybe it's 7702 successor or something but we will get there so speaking of growth one of the trends that I've been noticing in terms of the growth in the accounts uh if you look at the numbers are modular accounts okay I'm changing the conversation into a different topic a little bit so as we know there are the two you know there are basically three leading model accounts way of doing stuff stuff which is safe ERC 6900 and ERC 7579 now they they offer a lot in terms of functionality but they do introduce some challenges slash risks in terms of security and also user experience when you think about you know you have the actual UI but you have the model which is usually a smart contract wallet there are some teams that are trying to tackle this if it's rhinestones or other I just kind of want to think what your thoughts are on model accounts and those challenges I think model accounts is is really our bread and butter it's it's kind of like the web three equivalent of of a bank account um I think that uh we play with rhinestone they're only in our list uh um their new version um to to Really extend wallets to to places where uh traditional banking is is uh is usually uh innovating on on things that you usually do with your bank like for instance uh of course automating trans actions recurring payments canceling a transaction doing Insurance you know adding insurance on top like basically building pull payments on top of push payments um thinking about uh um you know a lot of those problems from from a from a fintech way of of looking at them ER and they really trying to to innovate I think when you go to a restaurant nowadays you basically give your password to your bank account to the waiter there's no there's nothing more I would say security there's not there's no there's no sense in the way that this is working today so I think all the experiments all the other experiments in this space are are extremely risky but they're really they they have the most potential how do you how do we feel about modular count and 7702 because you said that like 7702 is going to open a lot of use cases and this is the part that I feel a little disappointed with 772 because I believe that his design the design of 772 limited the actual use cases and it's going to be pretty much just Atomic batching and gas abstraction and all of the use cases you just subcribe with modules I think it's what makes me really excited about modular accounts and 772 is not going to be able to leverage them um you want could you could you could could you clarify like like why well because Tom was asking about modular accounts and we just talked about 772 yeah but but why why does like what does 772 have to do with limiting the modular accounts no because 772 could potentially leverage modular accounts but it can't wait wait but but why why can you not because it's per transaction and the EA is always able to override any other transaction so with 7702 like we can for sure set the code for the EA and who says the code can't be 7579 so you can have an eoa that's 77 702 authorized that's authorized to a safe that's 7579 supercharged and that means that if you're an app developer you can plug in your own customizable modules into this uh 7702 eoa that's with 7579 functionality so um that's actually something that at safe we are experimenting with to make sure that 7702 cross 7579 is actually indeed working if it's not why not but um with 7 579 I think to your question like modularity like app developers right now might feel locked in for the native modules so for example with safe and if a developer wants to develop they might feel they might have a glass ceiling that if safe offers three native modules they can only build on three but with 7579 you break that glass ceiling you can print or not print but like write your own modules and hook them into a SE safe 7579 and we actually have an adapter for that so yeah yeah so so so so just to clarify on on on a technical level like there's no incompatibility between 72 and and modular accounts just because you can just delegate to a modular SM account uh yeah you know and um but like I also think the concept of modular accounts is honestly so like this speaking as you know like our compan is like the co-author of of 7 7579 but I do think like the concept of modu accounts itself is is a bit overrated I think uh most of the things that's 99% of the things that people think they need needs modular accounts for they really just need session keys for right you know like 9 9 99% per of the US cases so I think um yeah so so so honestly I feel like this whole Narrative of modul SM accounts is overrated you know and uh you know I think we should just be focusing on you know like use cases yeah what are some examples sorry of some things that you think that are like the genuine use cases from all smart accounts can you give some examples sorry like the question so so you said like 90% of the things that people think are should be mod smart accounts they you know they could have been a session key so what are the things that couldn't be like what do you think are useful use cases for mod smart accounts yeah so so so I said I said 99% so like the I guess like the other 1% would be um would be the other 1% um but recovery has has not recovery has nothing to do with modular account I mean like what like what does recovery me like different models for different types of recovery I guess yeah exactly like I think a great example for modular accounts because you don't have to constrain your smart account to use a specific type of recovery you can pick and choose your different recoveries by installing different modules in fact the base smart contract account should be as lean as possible and you should move as much stuff to the modules but I do like what you said that like some use cases that modular accounts are being promoted as can easily be like session keys or smart sessions and I I totally agree with that because the modular accounts should be specific to account management I already see the T-shirt I already see the T-shirt this model could have been a smart session a session that's really cool that's really cool but uh I I will say it again that you mentioned this the risk factors of the 7702 uh let's take the example of like the pull payments like you said like most payments are push um pull payments um Can essentially be reverted by you know the eoa just overwriting them or you can double spin or try to double spend and this is actually a problem that cevs ended up having where you know we tried to put 7702 in the same mempool as the other EA transactions but because there can be conflicting transactions uh they actually now have to be in separate mol to avoid that problem and that kind of like limits what I meant that it's true by spec 7 7579 modules are compatible with 7702 but the way you design the modules in a 772 context has to take into consideration that there could be an EA that just overrides the whole thing there's also kyc like there's a lot of things uh like digital attestations about your account that uh you can't really you you really need a modular account for this like for instance if I'm buying a coffee what's the like what's the statistical possibility that I'm double spending ER and you can create really clear clear you know in in in traditional Finance there's clearing and settlement in blockchain it's the same and I think with modular accounts we can separate it uh you know if I buy in $5 cup of coffee the the chances I'm going to double spend are very low H if I also give my credentials if I also ask if I can also be able to to um um give some kind of a credit score my my my history uh if I'm solvent or not there's a lot of attestations that I can provide on that uh uh system I think you need a modular account for that so uh I want to double click on what Pedro just said like with 7702 your private key is not revoked so ultimately your eoa can override your delegated authorization and while it's possible it's it's slightly inconvenient to do so but it's still possible and use cases such as a multisig uh resource lock they kind of fail with 7702 because your private key can pseudo pseudo write it right so um the way as a product person the way I think it is like you could create a specialized contract that pulls funds from your eoa into a environment of a smart account so that your multisig your resource logs can still very much hold valid in that sense yeah sorry I'm just what you propose is great but the whole point of 772 is that people keep their EAS and you're basically moving to another I would love everyone to move to a Smart account I I I think you're kind of underpinning the the the the issue with 772 in general that your eoa lives on as opposed to when you create a smart contract wallet it's just whatever signing mechanism you defined in the validation there and that is it you don't have necessarily a seat phrase it can be just whatever it can be uh session ke in your browser and that's it and that's your main key I think that's kind of the underlying because it depends on the user if like the user themsel you don't if you don't trust them to not mess up then or if you want that new 7702 to be part of some sort of like multisale she said that it's a question of who do you trust here in that configuration do you trust the user himself or against other users in terms of what he can do if you go now and you spend with your credit card you could potenti go and make a payment like you buy yourself a new Macbook and then you go to the bank and say actually I didn't pay for that they stole my card and now the bank has to make an assessment whether you're telling the truth or not because if you're lying now I have to go pay Apple laptop and now the bank is taking the cost because you just slide to the bank with 772 you don't even need to ask for permission to the bank to pull the payment and you get a free MacBook you just do it you just do it yourself that's not always a good thing though I mean yeah that's why that's why I'm saying 7702 is not it's not protecting the Wallet account you know and then who's going to pay for that is it the pay Master the bundler who pays for and that the research locks completely break because of this it also in a way sorry one second it also in a way doesn't protect the user because if my original EA key has been compromised I cannot cycle my key I cannot rotate them that's the underlying problem there I think so like with this regime of a credit card I love that analogy like how do we do under collateralized loans like that's possible with resource locks right like I don't I might not have uh $5,000 in my bank account to buy a new Macbook Pro so I buy it on my credit card like on chain you you say you want to buy like a crypto punk you might not have that number of eat but you're give the the seller is given the guarantee that this this transaction will get fulfilled and your uh Crypt Punk is essentially in a resource lock and in case you're not able to pay back that uh nft would be removed from the resource lock and will be given back to the seller so so this these kinds of use cases kind of do become possible with 7702 only when you do indeed use a Smart account and the way I see 7702 is more like a facilitator to migrate to a Smart account rather than to continue to stick to something like a EO way which is pretty poor in my opinion I I think that um that you like it's a very short-term problem we're trying to solve here like a if uh like the focus is is on the migration I think what you can do with it is a different question uh so right now we're really focusing on how to onboard everybody and then when we're in when everybody are in the promis we can talk about credit payments which is most of payments uh we can talk about transaction reversal Insurance recurrent payments which is the bread and butter of Visa um you know I think can't really say that 772 ER is is really has anything to do with it yet um okay so we only have a couple minutes left sorry so we'll start with you I just want to hear from everybody um you know you you're in the space you see a lot of projects you see a lot of cool things that are getting built going to ux Pure ux what are some of like you know really really interesting cool ux solutions that you guys have run across in the past couple of months that you can share maybe about uh sure yeah um one one thing that I'm really excited about that that we're building is erc20 pay masters uh because I I'm excited about just general Commerce uh using AA so like I I think it's really powerful to have users simply use their usdc to cover the entire cost of a transaction um instead of having to deal with uh like n funding of native gas tokens um and you can build that really smoothly with like a you know almost a oneclick experience um really excited about that I I just think smart sessions are a great use case for pretty much a great tool for most use cases I mean uh because 99% of the problems are can I actually stay in the app and not go back to the wallet so you can just uh provide some policies how the app can use certain assets you pick two or three assets and assign a spending policy for all of them and given those three parameters you basically can use the app and forget about the wallet and that kind of reduces the amount of like switching context yeah I'm I'm I'm super excited about the chain abstraction work you know like the the chain abstractive smart accounts AKA magic account work that we've been doing um just like the ability for the smart account to spend tokens across chain similarly without bridging I think that I think that's going to be like the next big the next big ux unlock so I can say uh that I'm excited about uh um like we're seeing the first implementations of uh of account obstruction in uh um I think I think in product a lot of times we're trying to find a signal and and um since blockchain and ethereum is like very Grassroots we see uh you know we kind of see like small signals popping up and starting to to get like a lot more um action in Africa and Asia and we're seeing people that are doing stuff that are for not for investment like for instance I don't know there's a big inflation problem in Africa and there's a big middle class that is starting to evolve people start to buy phones uh it's not like super hard to buy crypto there but there's no demand to buy crypto but there there is a lot of demand to hold dollars and get exposure to Dollar yield and treasury bills and uh you know this is an like much bigger target audience than investors it's the audience that wants to to have like a savings product uh it's a much bigger it's a different Playbook it it's a different um um business model uh everything is different except under the hood it's using usdc and C obstruction so I think this is what what makes me excited and and the signal I see in Asia and Africa right now maybe it's not uh you know mainstream yet but good signal so uh I kind of want to break out of the echo chamber that we are in currently and from a purely ux perspective if you're able to spend any asset anywhere I think that would be like the ux end game so like somebody was saying that if they could buy like a cup of coffee with your airline miles pretty nice right or if you could like tokenize a part of a uh land instead of buying the whole property put it on rent get some passive income so in a nutshell like any any asset anywhere abstract blockchain away completely actually make people's lives simpler actually reduce cost of business and deliver some value I think that's the end game so I'll also finish with the two I I'm going to actually talk about applications that I saw that I think are really cool one of them uh is m a wallet they got a grant from us from the EF they actually use the government ID that you get in Japan that has a built-in chip you can sign with NFC and they basically using account abstraction turned that government ID into your Hardware wallet which I think is really really cool they did recently a demo with some elderly people somewhere not not crypto people but completely non-tech people and they managed to get it working really easily and that opens up all the different things we talk about you can do with blockchain through you know for normal people that just use their government ID tap it to their phone like or to a point of sale point and just like they're used with their credit card and the second application is H file verse which is or you know them as Doo they do the collaboration application here in the in Devcon I just I'm really excited about because I think that's besides gaming the first Financial use case we're seeing and there is value and we're seeing this around privacy and someone asked about privacy and I'm sorry we didn't get to that that's also a very important topic but it does enable you to set the permissions on chin and who can access your document you own the document you own the data on ipfs you own your identity and now you have all this interoperability that you can add on top that we know from blockchain for something like uh Google Docs in essence which I feel is also very very very cool if you haven't checked out their collaboration app I suggest you do just to get a feel for the experience that the onboarding is super simple and and they actually build out a really great application in terms of functionality um I want to thank you all for joining us I think this has been really great and I'm very happy that you were able to and so thank you all very much and thank you