Wallet UX Panel | Devcon SEA

GM who's awake okay we got a few people who are awake that's amazing yeah welcome to the wallet ux panel let's maybe before we get to the speakers let's get to the audience who thinks wallet ux is amazing today who thinks it could be better okay who thinks it's terrible right the next question um before we get to the intros who here knows what fire blocks is who here has used fire blocks all right on who knows what safe wallet is who's used safe wallet and who has heard about metamask all right that's um that's a good amount um skip the last question all right let's get uh to the intros I'm so thrilled to be here I think uh my name's Derek I'll get to my intro last but I think wallet ux and ux and evm is really one of the biggest challenges and we have the most amazing crowd here to discuss that today so I'm more I'm very thrilled to introduce ariq Lucas and Hester and aric why don't you give a quick intro about you and fire blocks sure thanks D I guess ladies first but um yeah so uh I'm Eric um and I work for fire block blocks uh it's great that some people here actually actually know fire blocks in a lot of situations we're a bit behind the scenes um if some of you for example uh use revolute or you use uh if anybody here played Off the Grid that's been exploding recently uh so like like the biggest web three game ever uh so like those kind of a lot of times when you use something that uses the blockchain behind the scenes um fire blocks will be there basically uh in payments in stable coins that you might be using and even if you're just doing uh trading the other party a lot of times will be fire blocks based uh we basically provide a wallet uh and other infrastructures for companies that are building blockchains based products um and uh yeah that's that's on my side Lucas yeah everyone um um Lucas I'm with say um yeah what we do is we build contstruction infrastructure uh we're coming from this perspective of uh like with etherum with like new technology uh as it's always the case uh it has a lot of potential uh but this potential is locked in the beginning because it might be expensive it may be uh very technical hard to use it may be um just not accessible for for different audiences and for us while the potential is there with like defi Financial inclusion with new kinds of coordination mechanisms like we still far away from actually having this potential fully unlocked and we see account abstraction as a key accelerator to making that happen uh so smart accounts can really level up uh the user experience and the security and all of that for interacting with etherum as a technology uh and that's what we've been doing for the last I don't know six seven years uh still so sometime to go but like I think we made some good progress so hi everyone uh I'm Hester uh I'm standing in for a colleague actually Adam uh who can join um I'm a product manager at mam mask uh on a team called wallet ux don't kill me um we do what we can uh no so a little bit more context uh wallet ux is a team that coordinates is responsible for bringing different units uh together features accounts worked on by a variety of teams uh and we try and bring that together in in what uh what is to be a cohesive cohesive easy to ous experience so if we introduce different account types SM contract account types uh we'd work on how do we actually introduce those in your importing flows in your account selection um same for uh settings and discovery of other features so um yeah I think that's a little bit about me and I'm very happy to join these gentlemen here um I love that joke um so yeah my name is Derek I work for a company called reown we used to be called wallet connect and many of you have probably interacted with wallet connect thanks for using the product okay so first question let's do a little bit of a I'll start with a little bit of a hot take so I'll claim that a account abstraction actually failed and some data for that is trust and okx were the main consumer wallets that actually launched account abstraction but in okx wallet they you can't sign up anymore so yeah what do you think about that that account abstraction completely failed I think we're partially there is what I'd say uh account abstraction becomes useful uh and wallet ux is about usefulness as well and it becomes useful when you get the opportunity to control what the account then does uh and I think that's the kind of the missing piece the granting permissions uh enabling users having an interface for users to control what that abstracted account actually does are you going to ship an account abstraction um I think so what is very well known we're working on a a framework called delegator framework um that introduces permissions and permission management for uh smart contract accounts um I think uh account abstraction to some extent is a victim of hype versus reality situation um um and like like you mentioned this is one example the numbers are definitely not there yet for the account abstraction uh but the hype is so much there that people kind of expect it's one day to get everything that was promised um now the reality is that um when for example account abstraction sort of launched which is not exactly something you can do to something like account abstraction uh there was no mle for account abstraction right so there was just like an entry point and that entry point changed I think seven or eight times since right so there's like a product like they take time um and 4337 was the first iteration of a cter obstruction that had some level of traction and usability uh and I think 7702 which I'm not sure how many people he are familiar with but I think 772 EAP 772 is actually going to be the next phase and this is something that the ethereum foundation is working on right now like the core devs not the ethereum foundation itself but the core devs are working on introducing that into ethereum beginning of next year um and one of the big differences between 7702 and 4337 because we're probably not going to go and talk about the standards themselves but I think the big difference is that the first iteration of account abstraction was really just uh looking at smart contract wallets as participating right so like Lucas has already kind of been in that game for the last year but the next version is also looking at EOS participating um so mamass can start getting into that game as well and fire blocks with our offering and our clients of fire blocks can also get into that game and since 99% of people still use an EA um this inclusive offer like new proposition is actually going to be a big boost towards uh adoption but we're definitely not there yet yeah I do think that was overhyped massively but I think it was also necessary because that is the reason that we uh have like about 10 panels on account abstraction at a conference now we have bunch of discussions and like progress a bunch of Builders uh working at that and needed this initial impulse to get things started uh but it also at some point the sobering effect comes where the big promises take longer Etc um like for for me anyways the goal uh is not necessarily the account abstraction part which is often associated with like the eips and the standardization of of etherum Etc around it but is really moving users towards smarter accounts um because that will unlock the the potential for users that will make them feel more secure have better convenience Etc and I think in that regard uh we haven't failed at all like uh right now already just looking at safe smart accounts they make up 10% of of the transfer volume on eum like 10% Like that's not I wouldn't consider that as a failure at all and that means obviously there's 90% to go but like at some point we will also reach a tipping point where like as as apps see that actually a lot of the transfer volume is coming through smart accounts to start optimizing for it and it creates this uh virtuous cycle of like constant uh optimization which eventually will lead us towards having every account a smart account which What We should strive for yeah but uh even on safe wallet I think you don't support 437 yet in the UI so the 10% that you mentioned they don't use the ERC 437 features just just to like um give a c cynical nitpick I mean the user doesn't care the user doesn't care if there's 457 there or not they care about oh my transactions are sponsored they care about oh my transactions are batched together I have multi they care about these things if 457 is the right thing to achieve that if 77 or is the right thing to achieve that whatever EIP is coming in the future I don't care I want that the user benefit uh gets to shine yeah I agree with that yeah I just wanted to say there's probably like 20 different talks about 4337 or 7 72 and just one wallet ux or like maybe there's a couple more like user ux there's not a lot of them right I think maybe that's a bit of an indication of the priorities we have currently in the ecosystem uh focusing a lot on the details of the different solutions uh and not focusing enough on like what Lucas just said the end result how does that look is it comfortable right uh uh so like that's that's part of maybe the shift we need to do as an ecosystem cool then next can each of you maybe pick your top three exciting ux improvements that you're going to see that we're going to see over the next year or two we're going to see three that's amazing yeah I can think of two I'm gonna get I'm going to rely on you both to add a third fourth six fifth um no I'm think one two of the things I am really excited about is permission management uh I think that's going to give a lot more control uh that users so far have had to rely on solidity developers uh for to to get smart accounts to make accounts smart or do what what you want it to do uh and the other thing I'm excited about is introducing more identity components into wallet uh being able to track your proofs and credentials that you have shared um so I think those would be my uh my top two pics I I think I think you left a really easy one for me uh so I'll take that one uh but gas abstraction right when people talk about account abstraction they usually put a lot of things into that bucket uh um but I think gas abstraction like or sponsored and gasless transactions are some of the things that are most exciting because probably a lot of the people in the room don't remember that feeling because like you're obviously like very versed in working with blockchains and sometimes when we're like that we sort of assume everybody is but if you go to a website and you want to do something and you I don't know you're buying an NFD or uh you want to pay with with like U basically like dollars right like for somebody who's not part of our ecosystem already um and suddenly somebody starts saying hey you need to have ethereum to make that transaction um that's like very very painful in terms of the adoption uh of new like new users for this ecosystem um and by the way even for us it happens sometime right like uh um I had it just recently where somebody like I wanted to complete something it wasn't a chain that I didn't have the native token for right like um an evm chain and suddenly you're you're in that position you were the first time you Ed the blockchain how do I get this guest to Spen now um so I think what smart contract wallets in general and account abstraction as it connects to EAS brings as well with 772 is definitely the ability to let users on board to blockchains without first figuring this really hard thing of getting the guest token uh and I think that's just in terms of onboarding we already see this is very useful now the good thing is if you go last you can actually think about three things things um I I I would say for from users perspective like what they what the user value we should bring especially with with smart accounts is around speed security and scale like that's really what the user feels from what comes out of it uh and there I think over next year we will see uh big Advance advancements in all of them speed it's around uh one enablement for this could be session keys where session Keys allow you to have like actually have like the the wallet be a cold wallet where the key is secure but like you you give permissions to session keys that then allow you to do easy interactions with an app without every time signing with your with your uh like uh yeah private key uh directly um that's the one thing uh and security part is we still rely a lot on the front end managing the security for the user where I think with account obstruction smart accounts that we can introduce better and harder security guarantees for the user uh where like we've got providers like a blockade for example in safe wet uh they check every transaction and they say to the user this is like malicious this is okay and the user just trusts the front end there like these same guarantees could be given on a on a transaction level on a transaction inclusion level where blockate could actually say hey our engine said this this is a malicious transaction whatever front end is used even if you had the private key exposed we block this and the only way to then go forward is if you have unpack whatever your social recovery or your backup key or whatever uh so that we we will see like this advancements in in security for the user and the last one I would say is scale where the user should really do as much as possible with their wallets and right now we we live in silos across chains where uh it's hard to to migrate between jurisdictions uh like across different l2s Etc and I think there we also see advancements in like yeah us it just has like a single unified balance they can go to an app they don't care what chain it is they just spend the the assets there they can use those assets on a different chain with a different application and the scale of user interaction just increases massively and that also is requires contab section maybe maybe it's worth like uh look has just mentioned this uh multi-chain situation um so I think it's it's maybe kind of bringing the the audience into our situation right in terms of getting good wallet good ux for users not just wallets so this ecosystem was built initially for a single chain uh and even as people were thinking about smart contract wallets for example the entire idea was you pull the wallet on chain because everything is on chain and then to started to happen and it's not the wallet's fault but basically it's my take that when more and more all l2s happened they basically degraded the wallet experience for users right because suddenly problems like I have money on this chain I don't have money on this chain but the DAP is on this chain they didn't exist initially um and now we have a lot of chains right like probably on the panel next to us somebody's announcing a chain um so suddenly even your Unis swap is on a different chain and your ens might be on a different chain and everything is on a different chain and that creates uh a user experience problem uh because you need to do you need to get the user informed of the fact that it's a different chain and he needs to do some action on the other side you might hide from him that there's a different chain but if you hide for him what if you introduce a security risk as a result maybe the other chain is not as trustworthy as the one you have money on right um so so there's a real dilemma between the use usability user experience that you can give to people and sometimes on the other side is not I don't want to do development work it's rather there's a risk element right there's a security problem uh that you need to account for so that creates like a very complex uh process so actually would say it's a trilemma uh I think the the problem with W ux is always you want to maximize on convenience you want to maximize on security and you want to maximize on control like in weet 2 we figured out how to maximize on convenience and security to arguably uh but like people just don't have the control that's why web free that's why one want non-custodial solutions that users have more control they can migrate their accounts to whatever solutions they want Etc but then suddenly the problem is you can only maximize on two of them because like you can have control plus security uh but that's usually the very Technical Solutions which then don't bring the convenience or like cold storage solutions Etc or you can have uh convenient and uh yeah convenient Solutions with a lot of control but then usually this is too much abstractions and the user doesn't understand what they sign anymore and they do something wrong and the security gets lost so kind of this trilemma I think we've been navigating over the last years in the wallet space uh and I think they yeah again account abstraction I would hope that it helps uh kind of managing these uh these these trade-offs better or or even enable it eventually to have like all of the three be maximized at the same time but I think that's uh yeah that's the at least my mental model when when it's about W DX is these three three things so we got quite a bit we got identity permissions session Keys chain abstraction gas abstraction security um so we got quite a bunch of things there's going to be a QA later if you disagree if you think the the speakers forgot something please um put in your your hot takes um I'd be curious I know the amount of fire blocks users is probably not so huge but the last statistic I saw from metamask was 30 million um I think monthly actives in the in the last bull cycle so you probably have a lot of user data is that also what your users are asking for like does this come up chain abstraction or anything like that gas abstraction yeah I so I think what we what we get as feedback is related to convenience to like having a good ux whatever that that means uh and it's up for up to us to then interpret that and understand how those problems might be addressed with account abstraction um yeah I'd be doubtful that we're actually getting like we could do some searches but I'd be doubtful that we're actually getting demand for account abstraction uh so it's our interpretation that some of the feedback that we get can be resolved through account abstraction um and and better control and security cool I pictur I I just want to say we that fire blocks has created more than 250 million wallets just to to like in terms of like the amount of users and stuff but I mean how many end users are in so so a lot of them what so a lot of times what would happen like fire blocks kind of has two when we're talking about models there's like well actually more than two models but like we can simplify it into two models where there's uh like a more of a treasury Orient Ed model for companies that hold a lot of money and we want to make sure they're secure and they have all of the things they need to build and that's like like what a lot of people usually think about fireblocks uh when they're familiar with with fireblocks and the other Mo what the other model is more wallet as a service so a lot of times what will happen is companies will create millions of Wallets on fireblocks uh for their users right and in that we also have uh for the clients the ability to do custodial and non custodial wallets so so a lot of times what will happen is that the the the client of fire blocks will create non-custodial uh wallets for their users using like MPC technology and things like that uh that is underneath the surface to make sure that the wallet is actually still known custodial uh for the user got it yeah I want to tap into that a little bit more later but one thing that that fascinates me is Lucas and and safe are massive innovators on on account exraction and smart cont contract wallets and one feature of that is that now you can have multiple signers and you can have spending policies and all this and uh I'm curious where what is the wallet of the future basically do I still have an app in my phone to to use the account or do I just have a pass key signer and I sign in the app directly um where do you what's what's the wallet of the future in let's say five years and how does it impact your business I'll hand to Lucas his smiling uh I don't know if there going to be the wallet of the future um obviously if it's kind of like sci-fi kind of thing the the wallet is completely invisible to the user and it's just interact or kind of Acts on the users's behalf as with an AI agent behind it and uh in a in a very secure way and when the user eventually at the end of the lifetime passes away all the assets get somehow routed to the descendant of this person uh like a lot of the things that are today not not solved but like the I know this is more the kind of esoteric perspective I know if some more product oriented answ no I'm thinking what remains especially if we're talking about in introducing more embedded wallet smart contract accounts is that you continue to have a place which then becomes becomes an evolution of the wallet where you aggregate uh search probably through smarter AI interactions uh what you've done in the past what you want to do in the future what kind of caveats you want to add to that um so it it becomes more your control center of accounts I don't see those fully abstracted away in managing or exercising control but I do see them abstracted away from interactions that you do with let's say daps or uh or other um decentralized applications can can I add a bit bit of a hot take on that in that area so um I think like obviously like uh Lucas mentioned earlier one of the easy ways to provide great ux for users is just be like a sodal right like that's what web 2 did um and so there's kind of like as an ecosystem we're like we want to enable something better something different um and there's now this very big push in the ecosystem of everybody being excited about like the wallets that you can sign with a Pass Key um I wonder like how many people here are excited about the ability to like on board have a pass key just sign it you don't need to create Keys you need need to do those kind of things there's a lot of companies that are building this right now um but I think pasis are a very big risk of centralization right and I don't think anybody talks about it right so like out of the people here who have a Pas orever experience the P key signing I don't think maybe there is there anybody here who created his basy outside of Apple or Android or like like actually create okay we have like five like okay that actually created a pasy in their own system like you can do those kind of things right pasis as a technology is decentralized but we know a lot of times that user habits bit technology so if you create your Pas key in apple apple will back it up in the Apple Cloud and apple can move it around between Apple devices but you cannot get your pass key so if Apple decides to shut down your pass key you cannot sign I don't know if that's self custodial like somebody should tell me I have no idea but like it's definitely not the fully decentralized world that we imagined so I think there's going to be challenges it's very exciting because it gives us the ux we want but I'm not sure it gives everything we want I want to take a a hot take on that or like I want to counter that actually in our app SDK I think it's the the past ke of convenience feature the way it's used today it's a second um it's a tofa and that's how it's used in Google and I think that's how it's going to Beed in crypto too in our app SDK that also uses a safe smart account for normi users and it's EC 437 so they don't need to have gas and whatnot they first provide their they first provide their email and then their Pass key so now the email still also can be censored But ultimately I think the like the wallet of the future basically you have multiple signers and if you have serious funds maybe you have you know some some Ledger in a in a safe or something if you in a bank safe um so no I think the Pas is a nice convenience feature and I think it's successful as such and in crypto it's going to be the same yeah yeah it's is but I I would say pasis as the primary and only signer of an account I I very much agree that this should not be the the way we should go down as session Keys app specific Keys pass keys are amazing but not as a as a primary key and sorry Hester cut off I think no I think Lucas summarize it uh exactly how I would want to put it uh not as a primary solution uh not a primary key uh and I think like to add to the point of decentralization it also kind of reduces Global access because not everybody has the ability or availability to use pass keys and this is kind of like the process we need to go through things right we get excited about this technology over time we understand wait a second there's some trade-offs here uh and hopefully new Solutions come in but like that's going to take some time personally I'm more with regards to centralization I'm more concerned about that the way we fix the ux problems um such as smart account is going to lead to more de centralization until very recently the only UI where I could manage my safe my safe core was the safe wallet UI and today the only UI where I can manage my coinbase smart account is the coinbase UI same for trust so actually the user now gets vendor logged in there um but for safe this is exactly the thing we didn't want to have like safe is an ecosystem we were pushing there 200 Builders uh like some do like uh more more de tooling but there's at least 50 user front ends where you can Port your account because that's that that's exactly the risk that we have going towards account abstraction is that we will lose the portability of our accounts it's the greatest thing that if I don't like fire blocks anymore I I hopefully have a way to migrate my account somehow to to metamask or to leer or like I I this is what web fre kind of makes so powerful this control so I shouldn't have called the reowned UI for instance also supports safe so safe is a bad example but personally I'm more concerned about these things than the the pass key centralization so aric what do you think I think I think I think that's a that's a great point right when you had an eoa it's just a key so it's more easily portable right there was multiple wallets that allowed you to import event Keys even though there's obiously security problems there when you import the key you took outside like it's already outside of the safe environment goes but still like it was easy to transfer what we saw initially in the uh smart wallet space is you could not migrate stuff right like you had a safe uh they had their implementation let's say you now wanted to move to an un buer wallet that was like that you basically had to move your funds right like it was there was no way to do those kind of transitions because they were not aligned on the standards that are used and things like that um a lot of the work that's happening right now again is mostly uh on the back end of a lot of our communication right between us and a lot of other companies is are different standards are being formed right if safe has one implementation of modules and other smart contract wallets have different implementation of modules uh it's hard to reuse model it's hard to to do things the more standardization that we do um the more portable everything becomes so there's like the smart contract side of of the uh standardization that a lot of work is being done there and also kind of giving the props to the wallet connect uh initiative as a start and reown as an an actor um what happens a lot of times behind the scenes and this is how a lot of us know each other is that uh the wallet connect team kind of organizes us to all of the different wallets together and we talk about how do we make user experience because eventually there is one app on the other side right like uh again we can it's always easy to use like a Unis Swap and they need to interact with a lot of wallets and if we don't align in that interaction on something that a lot of different companies a lot of different wallets will support Unis swap will not add the feature right because they're like if only 2% of my users can use this feature it's not even worth it but as soon as we all combine the efforts both on the client dap side and the wallet side we can push kind of like those things forward so so a lot of this decentralization is also about allowing the interaction to be the same and then you can move wallets without feeling like you lost a leg when you were moving right so that's like I think that's important we we love you too and and aric is amazing on the standards as is as is Lucas um uh but I think the smart account the problem I mentioned you cannot standardize because there's too much uh Innovation I'm also talking my book because Reon are building a library so that wallets can easily manage any smart account implement impementation and such that users can still rotate I want to maybe Lucas has another take but I want to switch gears a little bit because it's so rare that we have um wallets with so many users and different types of users on the stage maybe um and and someone like aric who's onboarding um new types of wallets I heard the stat this week and it seemed credible I don't get it together right but tdrs we capture we penetrated 10% of the market so 10% of Internet users somehow interact with crypto so that doesn't mean um but there are probably users like myself like my bank I have X accounts but maybe soon I will have five x accounts because my Chase Bank also has crypto I mean that's probably ARX wheelhouse but I'm I'm curious a where are we going to get this 90% from and then B does it keep you up do you think you can compete or is someone completely new like Apple going to come away and and sweep away the users we get them from mobile from where from mobile that would be my answer I don't think we uh built good enough mobile interfaces yet uh metam mask or everyone just kidding generally speaking no and I know that's that's the space that wallet connects makes a makes a huge difference um but I think that's the growth of our uh user base um yeah and that yeah no let me let me pause there yeah mobile yeah I I totally believe that the biggest adoption comes initially through intermediates so I think I don't think what's going to happen I like maybe you know but like I don't think what's going to happen is that we're going to unboard a billion users to like like if you're saying to wallet to extensions on browsers right uh mobile is definitely one of the things but I think what's more likely to happen is that companies with that already have billions of users right and hundreds of millions of users are going to be embedding more and more blockchain capabilities um and as they do some users will feel the blockchain first time without knowing it's a blockchain right again like like there's a lot of people playing a game that has blockchain behind it and they don't know and they don't care and I think a lot of it's it's like number one in the store uh first time it ever happened happened uh um and so I think that's what's going to happen right I think that social networks are going to bring those capabilities and I think that like you know like um online shopping is going to bring those capabilities because they have so much to gain from optimizing all of their operations to be or many of their operations to run on blockchains um it's cheaper it's faster like they can create better experience that's why they'll do this they will not do this because they like blockchains as a concept they'll do this because they will provide better service to their users and they're going to save money um and so I think that's where adoption comes from and over time the people that until now heard about blockchains as the place where people get hacked or the place where price has gone up a lot but they miss the train uh they're going to feel the blockchain as oh that's why my internet is better now um and hopefully over time we can get them to be you know more self- custodial and more advanced users things like that but I think that's where adoption comes from yeah I actually also very much see adoption to potentially come from more custodial Solutions first where like I think we also reached the limit of like how many people we can uh convinced to use to write down the seat phrase and store it securely uh so but like people are used to like web 2 experiences if something even if it runs on on the blockchain has a web2 experience and it it is has some custodial nature to it they would use it if it it brings a value and I very much want to see a future where we very much Embrace exit hatch as a viable option for things well like the the the source problem that we have today with intermediaries and with custodial Solutions is that I'm logged in like I have no way out I have my bank account like my bank account is not going to say oh here's the easy migration part of how we can move from credit Swiss to UBS I mean except just acquiring them and but like the let's say JP Morgan and UBS they they don't have like this interconnection yeah you can send out the the assets one by one or like I know uh rewind your position your portfolio Etc but like there's no interoperability there there's no exit hatch there like that's what we need that's what unlocks Innovation compet U Better competitive environments uh for for startups Etc and like I want to use Facebook it's fine if it's custodial like it's fine if they manage my social graph if they do transactions on my behalf if if they have a way to secure the off but like I want to have this exit attach that if Facebook uh I know goes down the the wrong path I can take my social graph and Port it into some other solution uh and I think that's that's the very thing we should preserve with control like if we don't have this anymore I start doubting why we do things in the first place because then we will slowly but surely go down the same path as web two had uh so this this kind of exit had yeah value we I want to see in the future yeah there's one I would add that maybe we haven't touched on which would be stable coins uh which we've seen as a as a force for adoption uh certainly don't hope to see more of that as a as a root cause to drive adoption but it's definitely where I think we'll see more adoption happening access to stable coins in uh uh volatile uh economies interesting I mean I one thing that I'm that I think we're going to see soon with stable coins is an explosion of stable coins yield bearing stable coins so we were talking about I think gas abstraction chain abstraction but we didn't talk about stable coin abstraction but obviously when I'm when I do a checkout on stripe um and usdc and I have a Yi bearing stable coin I want to be able to use that so um that's going to be a problem for sure yeah first of all I can say we see stable coin explosion right like because uh that's obviously a place where we're very active uh but I think for example like for me I don't know I feel like it's sort of an Arbitrage opportunity right now we have a world with so many coins and pretty much nobody uses a stable coin that is not the dollar that's unclear to me right like it seems to me like something that's temporary and will change over time because uh not everybody necessarily wants to be uh um like you know somebody in Europe not necessarily wants to hold his money in dollars most of the time right like because he still lives in Euro costs in that sense and then he moves automatically to the dollar obviously there's a good thing about it if you're from an economy where you don't trust your coin but uh like your native coin in the country uh but uh but it kind of feels like weird to me I think that's something that will be solved I think over time we will see more stable coins that are on different uh Fiat connected to different Fiat uh and we're going to see more of an fx Marketplace on the blockchain that we barely see right now um so that's definitely something that will happen that's by definition will bring more stable coins and the other thing that will bring more stable coins is that um eventually more institutions that the average person trusts will have their stable coin right now like again like we ourselves were like well we're kind of used to having stable coin some of their most TR more trustworthy organizations some are less trustworthy organizations but like for the average user they know their bank and if their Bank has a stable coin they might just kind of trust it more so like I think also that's something that will happen we need to earn trust uh and like as an ecosystem we've like the ecosystem has done a few things that hurt that the trust thing um so yeah definitely going to see a lot more of those but also I think more decentralized what do you think is going to be the the killer app you it seemed like you have some negative sentiment towards stable coins I think stable no oh um but then yeah maybe maybe what's going to be the killer app could be stable coins could be something else no just to just to add some Nuance to that I wasn't uh referring to stable coins more the the the reason for end users to find stable coins opposed to their uh their Fiat stable currency uh that was the the negative sentiment that that unfortunately shouldn't be The Driver um let me think on the killer app because I think what we were talking about for new users like the next 90% And they will probably not just have one account but maybe a 100 um another thing might be Lucas used the example of Facebook like if Facebook becomes a crypto app or Instagram uh adds crypto like that's a new account it's a new um so might draw in this if they build a killer app that might really quickly get us a billion users um I saw I think we saw a little bit of that with friendch they obviously did can get to a billion but um I know telegram is a hypothetically a new platform and they might have app specific wallets so I curious to see where is this going to happen overnight is there going to be a killer app drawing in these users or are we 5 years away from pulling in these these next 90% yeah I mean we definitely had uh two killer apps this year one is poly market and the other one was worldcoin or is worldcoin like uh you can say yeah poly Market it's us elections probably this adoption it's going to be hard to maintain it but like they definitely made it into mainstream media they were able to onboard a lot of non-crypto users uh with a account abstraction under the hood to kind of have this web to like experience and World coin similarly like yeah there there are some controversies around it but they uh they onward a lot of users who had no touch points with crypto before um like I heard something like 25% of of the people in Buenos AOS signed up for worldcoin and now it's about them actually making good use of this and funing this uh user base to something that's valuable uh but like they definitely like we're not 2019 anymore where the only people using the products are the people building the products we definitely made a lot of progress there all right um final question any any hot take on on ux on wallet ux I already shared one any hot takes on what sorry wallet ux I think I don't know if it's hotch the getting to Great wallet ux is a bigger problem than people think and not necessarily everything works in the same direction again as I mentioned right now with the like multiple chains sometimes you don't just go forward you actually go backwards uh so like I think it's like really requires a big push from the entire ecosystem to get to where we want to get to no I I I would just second that as a great point I think uh when we talk about wallet ux we often talk about talk about the user interface and things feeling clunky or slow um but I think that's a like a perception that is a um uh a combination uh of the ecosystem that represents itself in the wallet that's where you see the fragmentation happening on many levels it it's like always we're we're the one at the gates so we're the ones that people see so we kind of hide all of the problems of everybody behind us what's Your Heart Take Lucas trying to make it as spicy as possible we in Thailand no uh like I love metamask and I also like especially what you're doing at at metam musk but I do think but a big reason of why we haven't made more advancements inol so far is because of metamask because metamask has had too much mode uh and generally competition drives Innovation and I do think it changed a little bit in the last two years I would say but like 2018 to 2022 like metamask was just like everyone just integrated metamask in their app um until wall connect kind of opened it up a little bit leveled the playing field a little bit everyone was optimizing for meta musk and met if one entity always dictates the ux of an industry that's not good so like um again like metam musk is is great everyone should use metamask you guys are doing good job but like I think looking back there was a bit a missed opportunity that we didn't have more competition in our industry I think we would have been further along you actually got a hot take that's so cool yeah yeah yeah I should have started with that but has please respond no I think it goes back to standards uh and there was definitely an era where standards were l lacking the kind of wallet U wallet Alliance uh dissipator for lack of a better term uh and that was definitely an era that I think we've passed now there is there is strong competition uh which is a good thing and I think that's going to drive theux forward maybe maybe a sign of that is that I think a lot of the early standards around wallets have just been uh basically reverse engineering what mam mask is doing so that other think like wallets do the same and then you can use both because it's the same and I think right now what's happening is a lot of the standards is more like communication between wallets and creating the standard that everybody believe is correct so like that probably signals a shift in that but like uh we're definitely not there yet because like you know like competition increases but definitely there's still a big Advantage I'm quite bullish I think I mean even at this conference a few years ago people wouldn't talk about ux you know now like you we maybe wouldn't have had this panel you know just a year ago so I'm quite bullish and like yourselves of super game um aric many people from metamask many people from safe when we put together an event everybody get in the same room for a week you're always happy to provide people so I think we're going to be able to um yeah fix problems together much quicker let's get into Q&A maybe quick clap for for the hot te especially Lucas um um that was a that was a good one elephant in the room maybe I don't know what clears what the audience thinks all righty I like the first one yeah and these are yeah these are rated by how many of you voted so yeah let's do the first one um H has a take go ahead yeah well I just because of the framing of the question I don't think it's about 100% decentralized it's about 100% uh distributed control which is different from decentralized uh I think distributed control is uh a worthwhile goal that is achievable fully decentralized I would be highly doubtful because of the fragmentation because of the indexation that needs to happen for accounts for networks for tokens anything we surface in the wallet uh but distributed control of those indexes uh I think that's a a goal that's achievable like centralization is such a sneaky thing okay because at the moment you think you solved it you most likely just pushed it into a different place right and this is what we see is an ecosystem like ethereum staking so does so much work on making solo stickers easy making this and then suddenly like a Lio comes in people like oh we missed that part and then like you know and then new actions happen so like what usually happens with centralization just like security issues you push them from one place to the other place and you need to constantly reduce us like those so I mentioned this earlier with paskis I think that's going to be the second PL that the other place that suddenly Catches Us sort of offu then that's going to be solved and then there's going to be a new place that catches a soft guard so like it's going to be that process where you just move it around between places and you'll hopefully it doesn't have anywhere to hide I can you want to please um yeah I can take the next one with thoughts on coinbase Smart wallet um I'm personally super excited that they're working on this I would have had high expectations at the beginning of the year of where we are now because like the the promise of like coinbase is offboarding all of its user base which already has crypto on chain and they use Smart wallet for that and they have amazing Innovation there around magic spend where you can actually use your coinbase centralized exchange balance on your wallet and spend it with a if adap directly like I I thought this would be like a yeah this have opens the the flood gates and now all the the coinbase users are coming in we haven't seen that actually uh the yeah there's bunch of wallets deployed but like if you look at how much assets are actually used on these wallets it's it's quite minimal I mean minimum like one $1 million or something but compared to what coinbase is but still I'm I just recently heard that they're doubling down on this strategy and that's that's a very good thing where like they they very much engage with the ecosystem the w ecosystem especially also the account abstraction ecosystem they get where things are heading uh they contribute to to standards as well uh yeah I I hope they will uh especially embrace the standards that uh enable neutrality uh such as ERC 7579 so we have like a open way to to build on coinbase Smart wallet and it's not a a permissioned uh thing and like I yeah so long story short um for it would be faster but still very much excited about it let's go to the just to add one thing I think it's a very positive indication to our industry that somebody like coinbase uh who has so much control over their users are willing to relinquish some of that control to advance the ecosystem so first of all that's like a big kudos to them on making those steps with slowly because they they're not just making money they're also have this thing they believe in and they're slowly pushing towards that we kind of expect now l2s to do that right with their like single sequencers and we want them to move to more uh decentralized efforts so it's just a bullish thing for all of us that they're kind of willing to do that effort so and so good on them I really like the Innovation too but got to say like all like all the exchanges obviously following that strategy and they're all doing amazing like okx was really the first large scale wallet to do an E abstraction wallet the first one half a year before the second one trust which is also on by binance uh came along so I think all the exchanges are doing surprisingly um amazing in Innovation um I'm surprised that nobody's asking what aric's favorite Pokemon is um I know the answer ask me later um not glur rock um yeah who wants to take the onramp question I think the questions are great I have a take on onramp but I want to take the next question I think onr's been absolutely amazing like there's so much there's so many Fess onramps um it's mostly for the for the west but the innovation in onramps has has been amazing um so I think it's going to you have a counter I I think we talked about it a bit as well like I believe un ramping does in a lot of situation go through somebody who already has user attention right and can solve some of the problems that the user has to deal with with and just get them more easily into the ecosystem I believe in that I mean you everyone's coming online with an on-ramp stripe has an on-ramp like it's it's not big yet but like it's going to be you you're going to have an account somewhere within a custodial solution where where you already have your bank account linked and then you can easily onramp and then one day every will one will have this magic spend like feature where I can just you Source funds from this is a bit further out in the future but yeah I think onr is getting great offer a little bit less Innovation as far as I can tell but but still I mean there was there was like um there's like Bridge was the big fintech acquisition recently which makes offr for now in the US easier in the in the U there's also like this bank account type offramp Innovation so very bullish on that um I like the question yeah if you have enough if you have enough designers yeah I know I'd love to this one we're hiring designers I think one one of the challenges for for designers I mean this is the space is mindboggling for any of us right like there's so much to keep up with it's the same for designers um I think what what really helps designers is being involved as early as possible you can't design for anything that you don't fully understand uh and what I still see often is designers being kind of looped in at the end to add a user interface on top of something that's already abstracted if you imagine coming into the space now uh especially with account abstraction coming you would have no concept or understanding of how accounts are uh generated or initiated in the first place maybe the problem is not that we don't have enough designers I think we don't have have enough founder designers like I think that we're such a technical space that a lot of the founders are Technical and maybe like the designer view of the entire ire company is something like like founder designers might be interesting I don't know how many of those we have it's cool take yeah I mean rainbow wallet is very designer heavy family launched yesterday founded by a designer so interesting take I think in the early days also we were kind of designing or building for ourselves as a target audience lot like a lot of technical people and that kind of worked uh but I think now we reach a point where we are not the target audience anymore like if you want to extend you said like 10% had touch points with crypto like if we want to get to this 90% we need to build for people that are way different than ourselves and it doesn't just have to do with designers it just has to do with having a extremely user oriented approach to product development not solve technical challenges with Technical Solutions but solve user problems with whatever is the best way to solve that and they can involve design it can be technical Innovation it can be different ways that you achieve that but like maximize on user value and not on uh uh just Innovation uh and the other part is that our industry very much just likes doing the same thing that everyone else is doing so we live in narratives and like if someone else is doing something we just assume they they somehow uh had some big insights and we just copyed them and we do that instead of talking more to our users and actually do what our users tell us to do instead of what our competitors are doing last last question and then we wrap um sorry to put you on the spot Hester but the question is is the extension bullet going to disappear sorry which one uh the second one is the browser extension wallet going to disappear uh H interesting I think the uh the interaction Paradigm of an extension the way we know it might disappear what you're definitely seeing is everything moving into a side panel which makes total sense because you have the wallet in context of what you're doing what you something you don't have when you're using the traditional extension um disappearing entirely um I don't necessarily see that happening um just because there are so many use cases that you would want to use on a desktop uh interface uh but it'll definitely it'll it'll reduce uh again with the use of uh smart contract accounts your mobile might be your primary uh way to uh manage your your accounts and and signatures um yeah paired as a companion to what you might still do on a desktop awesome thanks all and thank you for listening okay thank you