Institutionalization of Digital Assets - TOKEN2049 Singapore 2023

awesome uh welcome everyone and thank you for coming to our session on really the institutionalization of digital assets uh I think we're going to try as best as possible to really look into seeing what is happening in the digital asset space from a institutionalization perspective uh where are the roles of these different players on the stage sit and where we think the market is going as a whole before we start maybe I'll have everyone quickly introduce themselves and what their companies are doing and we'll then jump right into it thank you token 2049 organizers for the opportunity I'm Giovanni visiozo executive director and Global head of cryptocurrency products at CME Group for those of you unfamiliar with CME Group we are the world's leading derivatives exchange we offer Futures and options of future on Futures across seven different asset classes including cryptocurrencies looking at at cryptocurrencies we offer we have Futures and options on both Bitcoin and ether and really happy to be part of the conversation today uh thank you Stephen thank you organizers for having me uh so yeah pradi um most people here would be familiar with the masek uh within the masek I lead our blockchain effort uh it has three components uh we do the usual direct investing uh more the mature stage uh we do fund investing that's our way of supporting the early stage crypto and non-crypto blockchain ecosystem uh and then what we also do is in white spaces we build our own startups also you getting yeah hi everyone my name is CEO of intramutes wintermute has been around the space for for about six years we are very active and across three main verticals it's a centralized exchange trading D5 and OTC um yeah and overall it's really great to be here uh it's not the first time I spent the last time hi Chris Ryan I'm at Galaxy digital uh I work in the asset management group we have exposure across Venture passive and active I run our liquid token Investments for the firm awesome so over the past few years I think we've heard a lot about this idea that digital assets crypto in general uh institutional players are going to come into the space right we've seen BNP parabol we've seen bny Mellon we've seen a number of other institutional firms come into the space but I think there's always been questions of is it real right um and I guess the question is where are the institutional investors and what role do they have to play in really creating a more institutional Market in digital assets and so you know what is the role of the Institutional Investor in digital assets and where are they really coming from those are great examples say of Institutions say creating or participating say on the um on the custody side but in additional say to custody players you know we also see firms now engage in conversations around the use of uh digital Ledger technology right um and that's what's changed right when we first launched a Bitcoin Bitcoin Futures and that's back in December of 2017 a lot of the conversations then were really around what is bitcoin what are cryptocurrencies there was a lot of concern say about this new technology being you say for illicit purposes but we really seen a shift away from that where I think you know now we're seeing institutions really Embrace this technology you know we we've shifted away from from from from concern say um and speculative say interest in the space to really now focusing on how do I use this right um looking at our space you know we've been involved uh really since since 2016 when we launched in conjunction and say with with CF benchmarks a leading say Benchmark provider and regulated UK FCA entity and introducing the Bitcoin reference rate which really like is the basis of our futures contracts right we saw this Market transition from averaging about 100 million or so a day when we first launched to now we're trading across both our Bitcoin and ether products over three billion dollars per day we're also seeing say growth in open interest right and that growth in open interest is really a sign say of institutions in this in this space open interest this year is up about 14 compared to where we were last year we're averaging across both Bitcoin and ether about 3 billion two billion dollars in terms of of Moi and then we also see the number of what are called say large open interest holder and that's anybody that holds at least 25 contracts so in the case of Bitcoin you're looking at about a three million three and a quarter million dollar position case of ether maybe about a two million dollar position but that number is averaging for Bitcoin about 115 such holders this year up 20 from where we saw last year so we're really seeing institutions adapt to this space and and trading in our regulated markets maybe Evgeni I mean from your perspective as an Institutional player that's been in this space for six years plus now you know how has that Dynamic been changing and have you seen the market continue to kind of progress towards broader institutionalization yeah I think it's been a huge change compared to especially to six years ago like when krita was pretty much a dirty word and uh is most of the threat fi but now you see on one hand yeah we see BTC and is Futures Trading and see me we see a lot of Bitcoin applications from pretty much key asset managers on one hand on the other hand the technology itself has been very much accepted like you see PayPal launching stable coins for example you see a lot of this being accepted as quite a possible alternative to basically exist in financial infrastructure and on our side as well we see whilst before we primarily trade OTC with crypto natives with some maybe like opportunistic family offices we see more and more counterparties which are like just traditional threat fire institutions traditional thread five family offices funds what's not so it's definitely have been a very clear shift in perception of cryptos something legitimate and I think once we now now that we got Bitcoin and ethereum in this like legitimate stage I think the D5 tokens and like a lot of a lot of other things can be next yeah I guess for Chris you know talking about that institutional investment basis what needs to be done for investor participation to really occur in the digital asset investment space yes so what we see right now is that there's a bit of a diversion between what we see kind of in the East and the West um and a lot of it has to do with the more hostile regulatory approach um that's been taken in the United States and then of course you have countries that are very aligned with the United States and they're worried that some of those regulatory pressures could could bleed into those other regions as well so the large pools of institutional Capital have been very cautious about approaching crypto thus far as it pertains to reputational risk regulatory risk on their own and so far they get close and then they kick the can down the road just a little bit further to the point made earlier on the family office side the high net worth where you might have a single benefactor or maybe a couple benefactors the decision-making process is a bit easier and if it doesn't work you're not a public company you don't have a ton of customers it can be kind of hidden within a broader portfolio mix but the the risk of larger institutions uh making a misstep in their opinion is just too great still so what we need to see is just a further development and further progress on the Regulatory and even the political framework within the United States as that eases I think even allies to the U.S would start to ease back their own fears then that some of those views would be kind of incorporated into their own Frameworks yeah I mean maybe from a regulatory perspective right probably you're here in Singapore right and we just talked about this dynamic between the East and the West what are The Regulators here and you know obviously places like Hong Kong and what we've seen with Vara and Dubai what are they doing that substantially potentially helping enable some of the energy that we're seeing here in Asia in terms of digital assets I mean so for where we sit we actually get the chance to look at it globally right so we can actually see the so-called Western perspective and then the Eastern perspective it's quite interesting at least what we are seeing is a consistent theme across markets on retail consumer protection um um uh interestingly though I think because a lot of the action is in the US and a lot of people actually looking to the U.S Regulators who set clear Direction what is a very clear theme in this part of the world is that institutional participation is quietly supported um it's really up to each of the institutions What policies how do they want to approach it definitely more progress as far as putting regulations in place so you saw these stable coin regulations come out of Singapore you're seeing work happening out of the Middle East you're seeing work happening out of Hong Kong which is very positive for industry so I think our focus at least what we're seeing in this region is more hey can you actually have clear regulation so that you don't leave these players unregulated you have clear rules and guidelines and you can function on that basis also interestingly I think it's got to do with the demographics the focus is also a lot on non-institutional use cases like gaming and entertainment I mean a lot of people here would have been in Korea for Korea blockchain week I would have seen the sheer amount of activity and the focus in those areas which really means that it's a we see a very balanced approach in Asia where clear rules regulations if not there a clear marker as to when will you actually get these so that you can function accordingly and of course listen everybody's looking to the U.S to say Europe now has Mica UK is putting regulations and then we'll follow suit from there and then just to add to that like other positive developments right um you know we talked about say uh Singapore Mass but Hong Kong has also made some some uh announcements as well we're now that market is allowing say uh retail retail exchanges to now offer products right in Hong Kong we also see uh Bitcoin Focus ETFs um in in market and when you look say at our market and and what were the flows that we're seeing say out of the Apec region about like 10 say for for Bitcoin about 12 of our ether Futures volume is coming out of region uh just this past Monday we introduced a a Bitcoin reference rate based on on say the Hong Kong settlement or there's Singapore Hong Kong settlement it publishes at 4 pm Singapore Hong Kong time and that's really uh an index you know providing say price Discovery for any entities for example that are looking to price their portfolio or looking say to create additional ETFs or etps or OTC structures I guess maybe this is for Kristen evgeny you know we've heard a lot around this idea of this Bitcoin ETF right BlackRock right uh announcing there they're looking into this right is this a game changer for for the broader industry in your mind does it move the needle a bunch is it over hyped is it uh insignificant what does that really look like for in your view I think it's definitely it's definitely over hyped on one side like to me it's kind of inevitable like it would happen sooner or later anyway so right I think like what people potentially get in Ron is just like the timing of it because it will even when SSC ultimately approves all the stuff it will still take some time for those products to be launched to be approved to be listed then it will take some time for asset managers to actually do allocations to them so we are looking at at least six months before we will start seeing first inflows into those products but probably like more realistically I think it's like one to two years actually but yeah like I said it's it's ultimately inevitable so it's it was always like destined to happen I guess so from from that perspective yeah it's quite hard to say how much of it is priced and yet but yeah I think once we will see real inflows that's that's when the demo broke development for the ecosystem right because um offering say a a spot based Futures Contract that they're not future type spot based um ETFs sorry um that is just going to open up the market to additional players who aren't there now so it's it's not say that a spot ETF is is say it's not a winner take all right I think there'll still be um the Futures based ETFs will still be in in market and there's pros and cons say to both but I think overall the the ecosystem just grows and I think that's positive for for the industry yeah I guess I'm a little bit more positive on uh you know the benefits that have in the spot ETF will bring in the near term um you know just back to my earlier comment a lot of the institutions that I speak to would see the approval of a spot ETF on bitcoin and ether as a huge regulatory Milestone that they can check off their box right and it it's almost uh helping to legitimize crypto as an asset class and a lot less as kind of this this potential Rogue investment vehicle so a lot of the feedback I hear is positive you know I think on the other perspective there is going to be a timing aspect from large institutions putting capital in but you know let's be honest um I I worked at BlackRock for over a decade they are a great marketing machine and one area of the market in the U.S that's been completely untapped uh is the wealth Channel getting products approved on the wealth Channel across many of these large Banks has been very very difficult now you finally have wealth managers that are going to have a very easy and accessible way for you know investors and interested parties to get exposure to crypto in a very cheap manner as well so before you get the larger institutions getting through their cios and and making allocations um on a passive basis to spot I think you could have a much faster reaction in the wealth channel to help bridge that Gap to those you know longer term decision processes at bigger institutions but but does that change the dynamic of you know the way that the Market's been operating today right I mean think about it you have firms like yours you have winter meat you have you know really large institutional crypto focused players that have really been building out broader infrastructure to attract institutional investors and then you have these large traditional institutional players that are coming into the market that in some way put a bit of a stamp on the market as a whole does it change the dynamic in in terms of the approach that you guys will take to kind of broadly build out your business is you see it being more collaborative in a sense what does that really look like for for you guys from my perspective I think it's going to help in the other parts of the business that we're working on right um you know we have a partnership with Invesco so we're kind of hoping that spot ETFs um continue to make progress um but outside of that there's a whole other ecosystem that isn't going to be touched by those two uh you know digital assets and as investors are getting more and more comfortable with understanding digital assets think of them as kind of like your intro into a new asset and then you start to get more Curious you start to look at other opportunities and as you continue to see more technological innovations and people are like well how can I get exposure to that you know where I think we need to be taking advantage of is making sure that we're helping them get access to those other areas of the market that just aren't going to be captured by some of those spot ETFs maybe I'll jump to you for a second right it's we're starting to see this Dynamic of which products are being developed right we have the these two camps right maybe you call them right there's this kind of Future Ford camp in which there's D5 there's new protocols being developed and then you have this other camp in which we're just trying to get to spot Bitcoin ETFs right where do you think in the next you know year or so or what needs to happen for the institutional players to kind of move towards this secondary Camp of looking at things like D5 and these new protocols and enabling that in their portfolios so I I would sort of take this conversation now Beyond spots uh you know edfs and spot yeah spot based ETF for futures I mean if you just step back and look from an Institutional lens um I think there's a common theory that in each crypto Bull Run you're tapping a different pocket of wealth so you started with the ogs then you went to uh sort of you know the folks who were made the wealth from crypto to the high net worth individuals family offices and then the prediction is that in the next wave you automatically will have this massive tsunami of institutional participation so I mean if you just step back at least our observation is that I use this analogy yesterday in another event where I spoke about how you've got D5 and it's truly digital native infrastructure which is benefited from being created de novo at a very different point of time so since it's F1 season I said it's like your Ferrari right so it's like you know Cutting Edge new infrastructure but we're now beginning to talk about institution participation but a lot of the institutions participation is in the context of traditional infrastructure and in that context it's not just infrastructure which is traditional but also assets which are more stratified and I was a bit brutal but like think of that as traditional road infrastructure even cobbled infrastructure so what really needs to happen here at least in my view is that you do need to see some bridging of these two worlds to say okay we've got this amazing infrastructure and if you want broad-based institutional participation then what can I actually use the infrastructure for so I mean CME will know this very well I mean uh galaxies dabbling on both sides as well is do I use it for risk management do I actually have other asset classes which can be deployed on this infrastructure so I actually don't think that's a one year time Horizon it does not coincide with any prediction of when the next crypto build run comes right this has got more to do with can I first digitize all that infrastructure can I then put all those asset classes in some tokenized format can I have efficiency benefits can I have liquidity benefits right I think there's a lot more that needs to happen here which will then allow broad-based institutional participation and again I'm separating this from do institutions go and buy ETFs or go institutions by and you know take some exposure to bitcoin I mean we leave that to the firms to decide right I'm talking more longer term it's a very long painful journey of digitizing workflows tokenizing asset classes and then saying Can I cross-collateralize some of these assets for example right and I think that infrastructure is being proven out in different contexts right both on the track find crypto and that I think will drive much broader institutional participation and I think what's in right is that you're you should say these these uh large multinational publicly traded firms actively exploring um you know not not just trading but but also exploring say how they can use say the the underlying technology and when you think of these companies these companies are all saying beholden to boards or beholden to shareholders so they really have to do their homework and and saying like we want to do this because you know we see that that underlying value right and and that's something that they have to be able to convince uh you know those those boards and shareholders so the fact that some of these firms are already like like exploring in the space they're they're doing so because they believe you know they they believe that this technology is here to stay it's it's not going away and digital currencies as we've seen say already with with both Bitcoin and ether you know last year was a pivotal year um you know we saw the failure of some high-profile companies we saw the failures they have some projects but Bitcoin and ether they've been resilient right we we saw those two coins our rally earlier in the year volatility is back down now to to historical Norms so you see institutions really taking this opportunity to build for that next Generation that that next level of growth maybe I'll ask a slightly challenging question I was in Korea last week right and and the the question is it's one thing for crypto as an asset class with those two tokens right that are not intertwined with the traditional system right they that cleared essentially there's no broader FMI infrastructure for it uh trades OTC it's another thing to tokenize a set of asset classes today like we've seen with ASX and others they basically operate relatively efficiently right payment channels are relatively efficient uh clearing and settlement Cycles while they're not immediate right they're trending down from t plus two two plus one getting down towards a real-time settlement so is it real to think that tokenization will be a a thing in other asset classes or will it really just maintain itself in the crypto native sphere and not really translate across the board yeah so maybe I can have a first go at this so um I think you've already drawn the parallels right so you've got money movement and then you've got what we would broadly Define as capital markets or digital assets more broadly on money movement yes they're efficient but the efficiency is more on domestic payment infrastructure so anybody sitting in this room can actually send money to each other on a real-time basis even if you're coming from outside the country you can download a bunch of apps wallets you can do that India has done that with UPI there's a number of countries who've created the infrastructure to do real-time money movement but that's not happening on a global basis right uh it's just not happening on a global basis so I'm not going to share some of our efforts but literally out of Singapore on a global basis next quarter onwards you're going to be able to do that for US Dollars on a real-time basis right so I think that so it's it's not so much tokenizing money as much as creating new digital payment infrastructure which can then allow of a real real time 24 7 money movement what it also does is it allows money to start becoming programmable I mean I use a simple example where you have a bunch of coders say and you literally can do a quality check and the code can be released why can't you write a bunch of code where money can move in an automated manner to a bunch of those coders right so if you think about broad-based micropayments these are massive applications which are just not possible in today's payments infrastructure right so I think that's a concrete example that is quite distinct from crypto infrastructure but it can interoperate with crypto infrastructure so that's happening by the way this is not in the realm of this will happen five years later or two years later there's a number of companies including companies supported by us which are actually doing this and then the tougher one is actually on Capital markets because that has a whole value chain from an issuer to a you know a custodian you know the Distributors and you need to to truly truly work with that value chain to see which intimidates can I take out and then how can I digitize some of that and yet deliver value and that to me at least it's unclear yet as to whether we've proven the benefit of tokenization does tokenization actually enhance liquidity equities is an obvious one it's not going to solve the problem I think there's been many failed attempts in that context but there are OTC asset classes there are funds there are other asset classes where we think there'll be some benefits maybe I'll speak to Christian I mean you guys operate in a space in which 24 7 markets Global liquidity assets moving basically jurisdictionalists right you guys have built operating infrastructure risk management infrastructure can the traditional folks actually execute all of these things to be able to define the value chain and move the market forward or what's the broader complexity that you see in the challenges that maybe they'll face that you guys have already looked at and think need to be thought about on the institutional side I could start um and I think Prada gave it just a great you know description of what's going on in tokenization I think in kind of more developed regions in traditional Finance where you're not going to start looking for just an efficiency angle you're probably going to start in the asset classes that are the most illiquid um because you don't take a liquid asset class and move it into an illiquid Market space which right now is is the tokenization market space because there's really not much of a market right now but there's no harm in taking a very illiquid asset and tokenizing it because you're not doing that at the expense of liquidity and as we continue to build that out and build markets I think what the Trad you know the traditional Finance world will see is that there is a simplification process there is an efficiency there's a growing market and it is providing that 24 7 capabilities so it will take time you know there are projections out there on how large the tokenization market will be and it's probably going to be one of those technological adoption curves where it shut along slowly and then all of a sudden it starts gaining steam very very quickly that's what I think and I think a lot of the traditional Finance guys are going to wait until that point in time until they have to make those changes and then there's probably enough case studies of how people have done that along the way that they can do it in a much more efficient manner yeah look I mean I'm coming from chat fire background ultimately because prior to creating the internet I wasn't well pretty much traditional Market maker for 10 years and basically operates and especially in the cache on the cash side of things trading ETFs for example dealing with t plot 2 t plus two to plus three settlements going through the pain of sending cash overseas to create and regime for example it's it is efficient but it's like nowhere as efficient as it can be if you put a lot of it on a blockchain rails like starting starting pretty much with stable coins like it it can be such a massive Catalyst for improvement settlements for example on CME ultimately because it's like you can actually do instant settlement you need don't need to rely on banks uh that's that's like very clearly yeah an improvement and the second aspect for me is General democracy democratization of how people can access certain opportunities like if I want to get access to let's say U.

S treasuries at the moment I need to go to I need to have an account in the bank I need to transfer dollars I need to instruct them to to buy Treasures for me is I need to rely on them to actually do it in the segregated ways that it's still safe I cannot it's it's a lot of steps which are a lot of which are quite an efficient ultimately and tokenization of assets would can allowance theoretically for people to basically invest into those those kind of like tokenized assets pretty much instantly you know I'll ask another question does the ethos change though right with the institutionalization of assets or digital assets compared to where we are today right if you if you think about what we see right you see this idea that different layer ones different protocols right they're built and they go direct to the retail consumer right there are opportunities for retail consumers to participate in the growth of a market right when you then look at institutional institutionalization is that Dynamic slightly changes do you see this friction being a large friction point for kind of the continued growth of digital assets or do you think these two components or these two ideologies can kind of coincide with each other and together move the needle forward I guess to take that um so you know the the way I think about about it right um I don't think that it's a winner take all I don't think that that defy say we'll we'll we'll take over say tradify I think both are going to coexist you know for institutions to really adapt say to uh to D5 I think more needs to be done particularly on the regulatory front I think those guard rails need to be there um there needs to be say uh more definition in terms of how these developers how they should design these protocols so they actually work and can attract say that that institutional participation yeah I mean I I'll just take a crypto native example of something as simple as just key management when you look at how individuals manage the keys versus institutional manage the keys when they interact with crypto assets it's different I think that Persona of that customer is just different so I don't think you can simplify this and say that institutions will simply go truly crypto native in the direct to Consumer formats right I think any institution will need a certain set of safeguards processes counterparty credit risk matters right I mean it's just a fact I don't think we can wish it away yes there are issues with the banking system but there are also issues with stablecoin issuing systems right so I mean I think practically what's going to happen here is more that you keep building interesting new technology on the crypto side it's very useful in the context of crypto native assets but you take the components of those that can then be transported over to track 5 world and we use the best of class technology from there but we also learn and how to interact act with it still have kyc AML and you're able to create this new infrastructure the one thing I'll say on a very pointed basis and you know we can have the privilege of saying this is that it's not going to come with a single data platform so there's not going to be this one Bank suddenly which other financial institutions Sunday trust so it will still come from completely new infrastructure that gets created by fintech companies or crypto native companies which are eventually used by track 5 players now maybe with the backing as Equity investors or as customers but it's going to be completely new infrastructure which will be utilized right and it marries sort of both parts in a good way yeah I completely agree with that and you know there's a lot of original crypto investors who are very much on this you know decentralization is God path um but when you want to really scale a technology I you know you need safeguards in place for users um my view is is that for crypto2 to really explode mainstream you're going to have to introduce more centralization let's call it at the app level as opposed to the decentralized blockchain level and what that does is that helps build trust with users that someone's got their back if something goes wrong as opposed to a fully decentralized system where they're just worried that nobody's there to help them out you know my view over the next five to ten years is we're going to see more and more companies corporations entering into crypto and they're going to be sitting on top of the centralized blockchains but they're going to have kind of that protective wrapper around the service the product that they're offering that helps to really give that insurance Clause to users and larger institutions that it's safe to use it and we've got your back yeah to me it's more like I don't necessarily see it as a massive conflict or erosion of values like I I fully agree it's it can be a massive Catalyst for innovation in general and for increasing the user adoption increasing the usability of those of those new technologies to me what's important is we continue to have a choice and that that whatever regulation comes in other countries they don't push everything to be in one centralized Place basically it's like if I do like very very basic and analogy like I currently can store money in a bank but I can also take this cash and put it on the mattress like it's not going to be as productive but I have this option at the moment right with cbdc's I might not have this option and to me what's important is crypto assets going forward is yeah if I don't want to bother ReStore in my private Keys yeah I go and put them as a centralized entity and then I will be quite happy with it I guess and quite like not concerned with doing anything wrong on my side but it's important for me to have a choice to actually store it in non-custodial way self-casted away and basically to be able to control it myself and not having to go through kycm out for this to be honest I guess from your view I mean which regulator is finding that balance right because I think you have in Indonesia you have this idea of a centralized repository so almost like a CSD infrastructure that's being pushed um you have obviously stuff that's happening far in Dubai you have Mas right now which regulator do you guys find is it has that right balance of enabling Innovation and enabling that choice to occur and and you know why is that the case yeah good question um I know there are not so many that come to mind that are like truly truly crypto friendly maybe maybe Swiss authorities are pretty good actually from that perspective like I think this kycml aspect as a main is a is the main pain point for Regulators to come to grasp with this new technology because they don't necessarily want to give it away yeah right when you think of regulators you know around the globe but I think they all have similar interests right it's all about protecting you know in individuals and and ensure that that their safety in there right so it's it's almost like we need say regulators and just get together and and work together right and and instead of having say you know nationalistics a regulation let's let's have something that that's more Universal right yeah I think too you know Emerging Markets have a bit of a benefit here in that they don't have incumbent companies which already have the infrastructure in place and you know the big opportunity would be creating you know a framework in place in some of those regions quickly but but thoughtfully to really encourage development with this new technology you know in developed countries there have been some that have been more forward thinking but there's also a bit of needing to protect a lot of the investment that took place for decades before right and it's a lot harder to kind of steer a new technology straight into the middle of that and split it wide open so that's why I think we've been much slower in the U.S but it you know it is inevitable at some point it's just going to take a while to get there so we have two minutes left and maybe I'll ask this question the final question it's you know we see a lot of pocs we hear a lot of announcements um in my opinion uh it's great experimentation but it's nothing that's yet driving everything forward I guess from each of you what are you guys looking for in terms of your predictions for the overall trajectory of the Jurassic markets as we see it from an Institutional perspective and really are there specific Milestones or aspects that you would look at and say when I see this I think we're on the precipice of actually really moving uh towards a full-scale adoption of digital assets as a whole for me it's it's having both Bitcoin and ether spot ETFs uh in the United States I think that would be a huge hurdle to overcome and I feel pretty confident that that's really going to help open up uh Institutional Investor eyes to a broader crypto ecosystem and what the opportunity is everybody um to me I would say like I mostly look at retail I guess and that would be making sure that onboarding into crypto is safe and secure and you don't have all those like horror stories with ball tapes for example it's basically abstract in the ways this important process as much as possible to make it safe yeah so for I mean I mean how do you comment on the crypto native products so what I'd say is the marker to watch and I said is money movement first so you have stable coins already has product Market fit in the crypto context right how do you take Fiat and provide similar functionality to me I would watch that as a marker I think once you get those rails in place then digital assets more broadly defined will be coming next and and I look at more say the regulatory Clarity right and and moving away say um from sort of like a a post and and uh accusatory uh you know regulation to to Really developing those those guardrails um and also uh Prime brokerage um I think in the space is is something that's needed in the space and and hopefully that's something that's that's coming shortly awesome uh Giovanni prati evgeny Chris thank you again for your time today uh thank you for spending time with us to really talk around the institutionalization of digital assets hopefully a lot of the products that we're seeing here will be uh key pillars to the movement of of this space moving forward so thank you again very much for joining us today