ETHWarsaw 2023: DeFi Panel - Current state of DeFi and its promises for the future

hello guys my name Isa and I'm the co-founder of e foro foundation and I would like to welcome you to the defi panel that I prepared uh with title the current state of Defi and its promises for the future and I would like to also welcome and ask you guys the panelist to join me at this stage um yeah please guys don't worry yeah big round of applause for them so we have Martin Defi niola davidi and Ryan rodeno today and please guys take some time and introduce yourselves maybe maybe Martin you can start tell us few words about you what are what do you do one one okay so hi everyone I hope you still have some energy after the opening presentations right now we had a very good one about oracles super important topic so uh my name is Marson and uh I say it already third time but I'm going to repeat it during this time I feel have you ever seen this meme of Spider-Man like three Spider-Man pointing on each other so I feel like this during this event because I'm a co-founder of redstone which is also an oracle I'm a co-founder of e waro over here and uh yeah also I try to stand up from time to time now go so with redstone uh my job is to run business operations and basically grow uh our exposure to evm and non evm chains what differentiate Us is from the very very beginning we said okay oracles with the push model are too expensive and are not going to be for the future of multichain w so instead of just simply taking the packages and sending them on chain we created an offchain component that is called Data distribution layer where signed data packages are allowed are distributed and anyone can pick them and deliver to the destination chain no matter which one it is as long as it's evm and non EV and we can also create like specific adapters so this mean natur I'm in the space since 2017 used to be at Google cloud like program manager and yeah did a couple of other things in the past but yeah that's impressive thank you Martin H then we have davidi yeah GM and ciao to everyone I'm David defi the general manager of Trader Joe the one of the leading decks in theti defa space constantly top 10 decks by volume on the defal Lama and what what we do is that we have our own uh defi uh Dex uh Dex exchange so that the the centralized exchange which is not a standard uni V Fork but rather than our own creation as we have created our custom concentrated liquidity protocol called liquidity book uh which offers unique advantages over all um altern over all alternative Solutions uh we are the lead index on the Avalanche blockchain uh second on arbitro we are also on BMB and we also have a nft Marketplace called jpegs uh which is the leading nft Marketplace on Avalanche great it's great seriously a lot of things is happening on your side thank you very much and then we have Ryan Roden good morning morsa my name is Ryan Roden I'm co-founder of a new company called wallfacer Labs along with yusa up here um we do a few things today but one thing that I might actually point you to is a new product we're launching I'm actually giving a lightning talk on it tomorrow it's called vaults v l ts. FYI and it's kind of a I think new take on how to think about yield in the crypto space um and hopefully a great place where you can go to find interesting onchain yield opportunities um but yeah that's all I got thank you Ryan and then last but not least def niola please tell us something from you thanks uh hello everyone from me too um can you keep your mic sorry uh hello everyone um it's always glad to to see uh def enthusiasts around uh I'm defi Nicola and I'm doing research ecosystem research and product at defi saer which is basically a One-Stop U management dashboard for the defi lending positions we also have a automation feature to protect you from uh getting liquidated in Defi and yeah I'm kind of a guy that um does the research and um gives the um like the overview of protocols as well internally as well as externally about the protocols we should or should not integrate on our platform thank you very much that's great product awesome all right guys so I prepared a few questions for today and I would like to have like you know deeper conversation I I know that I want to cover a lot of topics but hopefully we have time and we can uh we can get there all right so first I wanted to start from the like past and talk about the impact it had on the space because we we saw a lot of things happening uh the last 12 months um growing a layer to uh Improvement in progress in zero knowledge we also a lot of new project launched and there were also like you know some failures and hacks that happened uh last year so I like here comes my first question does it work what it okay I will uh like in a second show you this question but what do you consider the most significant or intriguing event in the defi in in the last 12 months and how has it influenced the space who wants to take this question first any volunteers okay defa go for it uh thanks well I would like to to emphasize the impact and the importance actually of the merge itself uh because I believe that it has uh brought a lot um Dynamics when it comes to liquid staking in defi um in in the last year we have seen a massive growth of staking protocols um now I think over 20% of all eth is staked and 40% of all Stak e is being staked via pools um I think it has had a great impact in defi because those liquid staking tokens are um used across def as collateral and um I believe that even the the shangi upgrade that happened later um that happened this year has uh contributed significant to tightening the peg of those liquid staking tokens and thus um lowering the liquidation risks in the the def positions that are using lsds as as collateral and that's very important all right I swear that was also my answer so I'll give you my my second answer maybe um my second answer would have been that you know obviously we're still in the one-year window of FTX blowing up which obviously was the you know thing that made Global head lines in every country in the world the flip side of that though I think is actually that the resilience that a lot of onchain protocols showed following that time period I think is a strong Testament to what many of the people in this room or on stage uh are building and I think kind of speaks to why many people work in this industry you know I think defi showed a lot of resilience in that time and you know something for this part of the industry at least to be proud of so I'd put that as my significant event yeah both these aners were were part of the common thoughts uh so merging them together on why I think that both of them are relevant and were the most crucial that have happened in the last 12 months is that due to the loss of complete blind trust people uh crypto users had in centralized exchanges and the refound uh desire of self- custody and having users own assets on chain the entire defi space has seen seen again a surge in interest in things that centralizes changes where uh we just handling through a database while defi does with proof of verification and actual Innovation we are talking about the fact that now tokens staying on a chain are constantly seeking pass yield through for example liquid staking instead of just basic assets or through the how users want to participate participate in a more active way not only in the in trading their assets on an exchange but also in participating as hobbyist market makers on liquidity markets directly on chain something that before they were just uh doing on other platforms and now uh together with all the new layer ches uh and fragmentation of liquidity we are starting to see due to all these rollups happening in the space a liquidity on chain is going to be the thing that we have to unfold due to all that has happened yes I suppose I already have a limited Choice wether but let me tell you that it's been right these past 12 months right so I would say we've had ups and downs starting so David just reminded me that the merge happened like 15th of September so it's almost a year it's not a year yet so fingers crossed nothing bad is going to happen on that side but we are well positioned I would say uh Lio itself also should get a shout out for holding the door let's call it because the redemptions were enabled and nothing like tra like scary happened like everything works as normal like new eer is being sted and so one of course the whole FTX collapse and drama that's a bigger thing to unfold like both on the uh let's say behavioral and people perspective but also onchain versus offchain uh like trading and activities um I would say going forward there are a couple of others that I would like to mention so in example the deeg of usdc in my point in my in my point of view that was super intriguing so I wouldn't say I wouldn't call it super like tremendous as the previous one but it was intriguing because people understood that stable coins actually are not always stable right and once you have to one you have to understand like how they work like how the reserves work how they behave on the very stressful moments because to me the one single thing that stable coin should be it should be stable right and it happens that sometimes it's not and for oracles as well it's super important that protocols don't Peg $1 to one stable coin because then when there is a d it can have disastrous effects right and we've seen truly extremely great protocols out there having hardcoded like $1 to one usdc thankfully not so so many dramas happened another one that I want to mention is uler so the whole Ural hack it was huge it was massive like I don't remember the exact amount but it was like 150 million dollar stolen and in my opinion the hack is not the most important for me the most important is that the the entire amount was given back so as the defi ecosystem we also learned how to manage these kind of Crisis situations it's not like the protocol disappears and people go under under like ground and you cannot meet them no like they're taking full action they're working with the government they're working with forensic and security companies in order to restore user funds in my opinion it's super super important because people when think about defi they think about okay it's too scary when something that happens is like end of the world but it shows that of course there are huge risks but also we learn more and more as the industry how to manage them and how to basically behave after it happens so I could go on with many more but let me also mention two more that are important from my perspective as an oracle so one is the multi-chain bridge like disappearing let's call it like like going down H I don't know has who has ever used Phantom as the chain okay so it's not the let's say like 30% but basically the whole chain almost like disappeared because of multi-chain drama and right now they're considering whether to become L2 or something else uh but it also has shown like how vulnerable bridges are and in case something happens to Bridges like there is a huge earthquake on the industry and people who are affected are okay I'm going to use the word ped right like it's it's truly scary I know people from Phantom I know people from Phantom foundation and they they were like it's it's catastrophic to experience something like this and then the second one so teral Luna has been already like over a year ago right it was made 2022 uh but because of terraluna a lot of uh traumatic uh stuff happened in the space so for example there was a bad debt on a landing protocol conv Venus on BNB that has been sitting there for over a year and which was just waiting for BNB to go down be below a certain threshold and then it had to be eaten by someone right like bad debt what it means is it's a loan that the collateral is below the borrowed amount so there is no point for a borrower to give it back basically and at one point it has to be liquidated and somewhere the damage has to be controlled so over there it's not etherum ecosystem but in in my opinion also a very important ecosystem like BNB chain uh the foundation as far as I remember uh basically uh took the loan and and paid the the debt which is also in my opinion well handled I mean for the lending protocol for the users that have like loans over there they weren't affected that much definitely thank you Martin for this answer speaking speaking of the the uh hacks I would like just to to add something to what Marson said um I believe it I mean it's not the event per se but I would say a new movement and that is the the Oracle free protocols or Oracle free landing protocols bear in mind um those Protocols are just shifting the Oracle risks from the core protocols to the users themselves so the oracles are still going to be used um just not by the protocols themselves rather than rather by the the users using that protocol so I think that I like to say that defi is moving fast and um the positive thing about it is that we are um looking out for the problems that might appear like the Oracle hacks and like permissionless Landing protocols that happened over the last couple of years and then uh that brought attention um to the builders who decided to make something different something some new primitive and now we have a couple of solutions offering those kind of uh protocols like Pawn Finance bull lending and Arna um AR protocol offering like completely uh Oracle free um lending and borrowing and that's like by by protocol design so I think it's important to to emphasize that the builders are shifting their attention to solving real problems to lower the amount of uh hacks happening oh yeah but we still have them example like curve hack lately that was actually devastating a little bit and all right guys so let's jump to the next topic because like we spent a lot of time talking about uh the last uh like events I wanted to also talk about rwa real world assets who those for those who don't know what that means like we had a lot of conversation last year about RW way like everywhere when you didn't go to the any conference you you heard about it everyone wanted to invest in rwa everyone wanted to build AWA and here comes my next next question how do you view the progress ofwa today do you think the sector can accelerate in the coming years what factors would enhance its likelihood of success who would like to answer first yeah I can start as a DEX we we have seen the race of rwa from all directions one of the first questions that we post ourself is what has changed now compared to the previous cycle we always wanted to to tokenize Zer Bo assets so why is it picking up now in 2023 as a finally as a topic and uh there's various factors but one is for sure the fact that now uh passive yield of bare dollars thanks to for example token I bills are are very quickly accelerating the desire of Institutions and Def participant to access this what could be called free yield uh but directly on chain uh on their dollars as liquid staking wants to guarantee the gains from the Stak positions of ethereum or whichever assets they are representing the dollar also is very static currently but there is actually yield that could be unlocked behind it and institutions around well if I said the word is a bit too inclusive let's say Europe and Beyond are uh definitely getting all ends into into the tokenization of Assets in Europe every other month we we are about new legislation passing for uh for institutions being allowed to experiment and test this sector and the issue with onchain real war asset access is actually that there is a lot of overhead on who's going to verify and authenticate the users so we are still at a uh very juvenile state of being able to open AWA to the masses as uh currently authentications uh um know your customer or know your business uh or the all this different type of verification systems are still U being a very relevant part of as a blocker or as a potential path for success for this so we will definitely see many protocols getting into the real B assets I personally think that is one of the reasons that actually may make crypto and defi meaningful as we want every user to access onchain Finance hang go next so one of the things that my company Wallace or Labs does is we contribute to trui which is an onchain credit Market protocol So within rwa and actually last year around the same time I sat on the same stage with someone from Makow and centrifuge and and somewhere else and that was almost about the peak of outstanding loans in the rwa market and if you go to this website rwa doxyz the chart of uh kind of rwa adoption looks like kind of flat R can you like oh it's kind of flat and then it spikes up and now it's kind of like back in this you know smaller period and you know I think rwa has a lot of structural challenges that don't exist with other dii protocols so for example in most most cases the lp token that you get back from lending to an rwa protocol will not be transferable so you can't swap it on a money market or sorry you can't swap it on a DEX you can't deposit it as collateral into a money market and so it lacks some of the composability that exists throughout the rest of defi so when you look at a trui a maple a goldfinch a centrifuge whoever in general they're kind of isolated from the rest of the market you know you don't see them as collateral posted at other venues now now I think with the current rise of the popularity of t- bills that's maybe starting to change a bit and I think one of the things that makes T bills maybe more natural for crypto is that the you know each t- bill essentially is fully fungible right one 3-month treasury bill is the same as another three-month treasury bill that's not the same as one uh you know loan to a trade receivables company and a loan to a Emerging Market credit type of firm so I think having more of these fungible types of loans or Bonds on chain are probably the right way to go uh that said I still think there's a lot of hurdles just on the overall you know people have to do kyc and it's just a new learning flow for users essentially and trui definitely has a t- portfolio you should absolutely go check it out just as a you know small plug naturally yeah so maybe let me take a St step step back first so who knows what real world assets are raise your hand okay let me claim it 50% maybe 60% there are some people a little bit higher more than use the this Phantom thing so I'm not good in quick counting sorry for that guys so um in any case uh I would say it's still uh real world assets still require a bit more of the uh distribution when it comes to what stand what real world asset are I mean of course e bills but then we can also talk about gold like tokenized gold it is like reward asset then we have real estate we can have art we can have wine and we have many other things like basically tangible things so to unpack all of that that's pretty funny that we have this panel today because today I give you some Alpha fre PM if you go on Twitter to At Redstone Finance uh defi sorry uh you're going to see a result a fruit of one month of research that our team did together with chaos Labs one of the leading risk assessment companies and we published a 30 page report on real world assets we analyzed 31 projects we had like over 20 contributors to the ort so it's a super heavy stuff so I tell you 3 p.m. you check it out and as for the question itself yeah TS and like protocols such as like companies such as like centrifuge Ono fla Matrix dog all of them are pushed boundaries in that sense and I will let defi Nia to talk probably more on the defi end what I want to also touch upon is ESG so companies that are doing like for example carbon credits and are stuff around more sustainability so there are companies such tan protocol zenen clad and others that are also expanding within this area and uh my in my opinion in the long term it's going to be also a super important vertical in real world asset asss and then the second one angle you can check angle money what the guys are doing they're creating a stable coin and right now they are utilizing real world assets to back the stable coin for example uh T bills but also some ETFs of uh European bonds so it shows it tries to bring less risk and more scalability to stable coins in general thank you if any please yeah I mean pretty good answers so far um I would just like to add that I think the organization of um financial instruments from the tradify world uh can be important for defi because it brings a lot more use cases like um fractional ownership um those tokens whether they're funable or not funable are easy to transfer on chain um they also bring new investment opportunities um and I think there is of course um some regulatory friction because we we would need institutions uh to on board and start to support and recognize those kind of assets um on the other hand there is always a risk of the custodian providing and tokenizing this kind of service uh one interesting approach um in my opinion is what maker is doing currently with their um with their current stage of their endgame and that is sort of diversifying the centralization risk by having like last time I checked 10 different uh custodians which they're using uh their collateral their tokens their real world assets to collateralize their stable coin die so I think uh it's an interesting approach so they have like different exposures to different custodians I mean um in the long run that could may be the solution of just not having the centralization risk that high when it comes to custodians thank you guys for the answers and maybe now let's talk about stable coins a little bit because that's very important topic and we can't talk about defi without stable coins uh stable coins and we already mentioned that um a few times so what approach to stable coins do you find the most reliable on or you like the most and why maybe let's make it like quick answers maybe who wants to start that I can go first okay um in my opinion the LUSD the liquid LUSD is I think the most resilient one because it has a it is a mutable protocol and it has um pretty straightforward Redemption mechanism where you can um redeem um one L USD for $1 of e and it's like um completely on chain and and uh transparent um so I think I'll go with that one as a short answer yeah I think testing testing you know I think the market has kind of spoken in that it likes US dollar pack stable coins the most you know just tether and usdc basically dwarf everything else I will say that I find curves new stable coin CRV USD to be really kind of innovative uh they have this llama maybe you know what it stands for the soft liquidation type of module that basically operates behind the stable coin so that if the value of your col is slipping they'll slowly liquidate you into stables and basically vice versa as well if the value starts to increase which I think is just something kind of new and different in the Market at the same time it also you know uh we have a blog post about this on wallfacer labs. sub.

com basically looking at how it feels like everyone today is planning to launch a stable coin or is probably thinking about it obviously a has go which they've launched very recently currently kind of struggling with the peg it wouldn't you know I think there's a lot of things that are now launching stable coins around liquid staky tokens as well and I think it's just within defi maybe there's not a ton of great business models but uh stable coins certainly are one and so a lot of people are interested in that uh launching something with Trader Joe we have been in close proximity with quite some stable coins over the time we were the highest uh resource of MIM uh we had a lot of of USD on the chain and uh what we have learned over time is that um leaderless stable coins are usually best and where what might sound boring but I think that USD C and Euro uh so the circle dollar and circle Euro being battle tested from a very competent company that is running it it feels very solid at this point the approach that people should take with stable coins is just not to fall in love with their stables and to just consider the reserve and to stay as safe as possible from whatever option that there could be but um yeah I will I will also say the that Teter is a interesting company that has a lot of uh seems to create a lot of uh animated conversations uh I've listened to some Arduino talks uh on how it is being used a lot in newly developing countries um it is very interesting that people are very emotional about stable coins we should not bring an emotion they shall just try to be stable but that's what we're all trying to achieve on stability and longlasting experience yeah so just to recap the three major categories in stable coins are Fiat backed so usdc usdt Teter uh TUSD for example and paypals stable coin that has been announced recently the second is CDP so cataliz Deb position uh stable coins for example go curve USD LUSD and so on so forth and the third C category which is probably the smallest is like algo Stables has anyone heard of us yeah no one uses that anymore right because it deed and it's non-existant anymore and many people felt it very badly right H but there is also for example fra that is doing a hybrid let's call it there is as mentor on Silo uh chain so there is quite a few and in my opinion the three most exciting right now to my perspective one are cdps backed by liquid state assets so for example for raft gravita Prisma Finance what these guys are doing is what liquidy does so taking if but instead of if you take staked e you take SWAT sweat e you take ethx so various types of lsts and then you produce a stable coin second this angle they are creating an AG Euro so Euro stable coin and as I said they are experimenting with real world assets in my opinion in the long term it's going to be super important category as the collateral and last but not least I already mentioned that fra frax is also trying to expand right now to re assets and they have a very solid team and has been steadily growing so I would look for some Innovation over there thank you guys that's definitely interesting and obviously we can't have conference in 2023 without mentioning even mentioning a layer twos so here is my next question about it what challenges could the expansion of layer twos pose for defi how might layer toos at cryptos overall growth anyone maybe this time someone else might start I don't know they they there would you like choose so we loued on arbit room last Christmas and now basically we have seen so many new layer ches not only trying to get M share but also being up or wanting to call themsel the next big thing happening and there some aspects about layer choose that people have to consider one is fragmentation of liquidity is technically bad because the more fragmented the liquidity we have on defi on 30 chains the less uh efficient this this liquidity is going to be and we are just over complicating then access to efficient markets which need active participants good protocols that can unleash this efficiency but the what we really need to unlock regarding layer ches is mostly cross chain interoperability which I think is the next big step that will happen in the space um while we talk about when we talk about ZK chains or evm compatible chains or alt layer ones uh the main thing that we will I think we will be ending up uh trying to solve is cross chain interoperability of liquidity pools and liquidity usage amongst users the fact that they currently have to bridge their token five times a day in order to balance their liquidity across different chains is something that we expect uh evolutions of layer choose to try to solve but it's going to take time and we need to solve this faster also hopefully thanks to all the different bridging technologies that are becoming popular and of daily use so I I don't know if you have different angles around what what do you think challenge wise I was going to very much agree with you actually I think each of the individual l2s is doing a lot for interoperability within their ecosystem so optimism's got the super chain and ZK sync's got the hyper chain and arbitrum has something I'm sure and those things will all be able to move very freely between each other and not have that uh liquidity uh fragmentation as you said but between each of these different ecosystems we're going to have a billion dollars here and billions of dollars here and it actually kind of reminds me of when centralized exchanges at one point used to have multiple stable coin denominated pairs so binance for example would have markets denominated in tether and bu USD and usdc fragmenting liquidity across these three different markets and then FDX ironically enough introduced just just one USD denominated market and that was actually great for liquidity I have no idea what the parallel is in the L2 world but uh I agree and then there was a second part to the question right which is uh how might l2's overall growth um this is kind of a new opinion that maybe I wouldn't have said a couple weeks ago but you know with the rise of frch which obviously has been very popular it's not that that couldn't have existed on ethereum layer 1 but that lower fees make it more accessible to a wider uh cohort of users so maybe we will actually finally see some more mainstream consumer type applications as a result of layer twos and I think that'd be very exciting for everyone in the space yes I love that answer actually of your David like liquidity is the single most Troublesome thing when it comes to man L2 is popping out and as an oracle that's super challenging for us because uh if you have low liquidity U at a certain chain you can fairly easy like manipulate the price and then you take uh create a hack and whatever therefore as Redstone right now we deliver not only like spot price so what's the price of a current of a given asset but we also give like liquidity at certain pools from which we which we pull so that would help uh the D protocols to mitigate such uh events um I I'm not going to repeat so maybe let's introduce something new I mentioned Phantom already also on this conference we have silo or t so these are the two chains that consider becoming like L2 let's call soall uh on ethereum instead of keeping being as an L1 and igen layer like the raking protocol is also enabling that Innovation and will probably in my opinion be one of the driving Factor uh for innovation in that space like popping up uh basically the new l2s um one of the thing about bridging I see is I usually look into the past and try to analyze the trends and how they will apply in the current form so right now at least in Poland if you want to send money from One bank to another and these are not the same banks that say m Bank to ing then you have to wait for the sessions right like for the clearing if you want to send money internationally then you probably have to wait for a day or even more right seven days some yeah seven days right or uh it depends on the bank but basically right now we already the the time you have to wait between the l2s is lower and my opinion as we will be going forward it's going to be even lower and lower as for the uh time waiting to get from one chain to the other and I hope within let's say one two maybe five years we are going to create like a seamless experience like going there there and over because with this status of banks I don't see any Improvement like it's it's been the same for years and we kind of accepted that right whereas in defi it's not true like in defi people try to push the frontier and improve and try to minimize the cost and the time they have to wait um I when it comes to challenges of of l2s I would like to um see how many people in the room believe that the decentralizing the sequencer of l2s uh is the biggest problem currently the biggest issue okay not a lot people because I'm happy to see that actually because I would argue that because when it comes to challenges I think that um having fraud proofs and removing the Instant upgradability by multi is way higher on the priority list than decentralizing sequencer but it's definitely a challenge and that we should tackle like in the long run um and I would just agree with that liquidity fragmentation is definitely ly presenting an issue like for projects like if I say we are constantly in the discussion about where we should go next and uh which one should we choose to on board our users because um a lot of them still have some security issues and we need to pick the ones with with the lowest number of those thank you and we can check out L2 be.com to view all the data you're talking about thank you I wanted to also talk about maybe a little bit about zero knowledge because we saw we see a lot of Innovations there and uh it's obviously like very uh difficult uh topic and we we won't go into you know the Deep ma Etc I just wanted to ask you about the impact it has on defi so my next question is how might advances in zero knowledge impact defi defi niola would you like to start now go um um well I think that the ZK impact on defi is actually um pretty um indirectly being indirectly because um d2s are probably like the biggest use case of ZK we have seen so far um beside um privacy um and I think that the l2s has um onboarded new use cases for defa actually because we now can uh have um projects that are doing leverage trading that are creating leverage trading protocols which need High transaction throughput which need low transaction fees that we didn't have on a on a L1 in defi um and I think that's like the indirect impact that the the ZK is having um on Def thank you Martin any thoughts on zero knowledge yeah I'm very big fan of l2s like zk2 scroll Linea zking Stark net and so on so forth and we are going to see more of them but I will be short this time storage proofs storage proofs are going to revolutionize in the long run how we do cross chain messaging right now they are fairly slow and expensive but as such companies as risk zero and other efforts like Herodotus yeah Herodotus is doing like storage proofs themselves but risk zero is like lowering the cost of proof proof creation and verification right so basically like minimizing the cost and the time of proofs to be created and validated I would see like in the long term to be truly uh revolutionary but it's going to be something similar to let me call it for example smartphones so it's not going to happen overnight it's going to be rather steady at one point you're going to realize hey I cannot live with without that thank you Martin anyone yeah I I can go I think from the user perspective I don't know I feel like there hasn't actually been a huge pull from users to demand more privacy in a lot of their onchain transactions I think it's one of those things where people might say that they want it but to the extent that they have to do any sort of additional action to get privacy the you know demonstrated action is that they don't actually do it maybe there is some case to be made that uh institutions will find privacy more interesting for large scale kind of trade transactions to the extent that things like that ever happen on a blockchain um but yeah I actually don't have many strong opinions on privacy thank Youk yeah when people when users of our decks ask every other week when ZK chain and then we try to understand what they're looking for uh then the answer is always just deploying on the ZK chain and this represents often just the fact that we are still at a early stage of completely unleashing what ZK technologies will mean for real users because um deploying an evm compatible protocol on a ZK check is not the end goal of what of what zero knowledge was meant to be I'm sure that many new ways to uh protect the identity of users and transactions is going to be Seck especially in the real world asset sector or by institutions which are uh more Desiring to look for uh privacy by the fault instead of just nice to have and we will see then next iterations that will use real ZK knowledge probably in the next wave of new protocols that are going to happen so I will say uh just pure evm compatibility it's not the end goal but we will get into really finding great use cases for this sector hopefully thank you guys we are running out of time but we have one more question uh to go so guys which upcoming projects or ideas are you the most enthusiastic about who wants to start any okay go for it um well there there's a bunch of those to be honest um I mean um the project I'm really looking forward to is um for example uh liquidy version two they're sort of building a new stable coin that will be Reserve backed and um that will um use perpetuals as a hedging mechanism um another one may be something uh that is cooking in the defi saver Labs should I call and that's um eth saver you're basically releasing it on Monday and it's the project for um managing the Le your leverage staking positions and creating them in one click and shifting between different underlying protocols you're using to to get that leverage um I don't know um I I would leave others I mean we're a short of time but yeah I have a full list of those but yeah okay thank you guys you can ask always da niola after the panel about his um like most interesting projects yeah Ryan go for it yeah one thing that I was going to touch on actually you mentioned it kind of earlier is that I feel that in uh onchain lending there's a lot of interesting new and innovative things coming to Market whether it's AA blend from blur even things like compound V3 which took a very different design approach to how to do a on money market um Moro I find very exciting there's a lot of interesting stuff happening in lending and I think it's really cool to see that type of innovation coming from a bunch of different protocols whereas you know maybe i' just contrast that a bit with the deck space excluding Trader drill of course which I know continues to do interesting things it seems like you know some things like Unis swap have maybe kind of moved into the mode of they're just trying to kind of gather all of the features rather than a bunch of smaller players having a chance to rise up so I've been kind of newly interested and invigorated by on train lending markets thank you Ryan yeah already hinted at the as at the multi-chain liquidity aspect so what I'm really looking forward currently we are very strong partners with layer zero and we are also interest and and our token is an of token uh we are looking into messaging as the next way for uh for protocols to interoperate across all the chains they are and what I'm really looking forward to is seeing how messaging could solve the block the multiblock delay of cross chain swapping and trading to get together with um together with the possibility of users to interact on multiple chains by just doing a transaction on one chain and transmitting uh transmitting tokens messages and executions all within a few seconds if we get to unlock this we are going to be in a much better space overall in Defi and so really looking forward to see where we get there thank you thank you yeah so let me maybe make the full cycle we started at the very beginning with the merge which enabled like the LST boom and in my opinion the Boom is still exploding so we have what 22% of e staked so in comparison to other proof of stake Chains It's really little so there's still a lot of ether to be staked and like Innovation to be pushed towards that direction and Lio has become like a kind of a let's say established golden standard over there but I see a lot of innovation happening from other protocols such as Stak wise they're releasing their vree very soon like OS eth there's swell truly guys check out swell like what their guys are doing is tremendous one they are having a very security approach and two they're making gamification of staking ether which is like wow really crazy and they are growing all the time uh there's stay there um yeah there are these CDP stable coins that are utilizing the staked ether assets and then creating stable coin again the second is airwa already talked about that but centrifuge on flux um Matrix docks dog and so on so forth H last but not least haven't mentioned yet on the panel are perss in my opinion okay many people are already fed up with perss I'm fed up with people trying to raise money for per but I'm not fed up with Innovation with perss because pers is super hard and for example one vertical within perss that I really would like to see is making them a bit more user friendly because I see them being very well used by people who know how to use it but I see even more people who don't know how to use it burned with them like not understanding what cost what how to make it how to use it and so on so forth so maybe a bit more even education with that space uh yes I would say pers is still also viable market right thank you guys thank you it was like really amazing to have you here maybe we can take one question from the audience like very quick anyone wants to ask yeah in the front here about wait please for the mic for the stream uh what's your opinion on fra eth and their division between uh staking and trading as two different Assets in the in their Min maxing of the yield that comes into the Stak e okay guys yeah it's actually a true problem to push uh volume versus tvl uh for example as a DEX if we will have the need to push the two different directions that we will have to implement completely different strategies as incentivizing volume is not the same as incentiv incentivizing passive liquidity on one side you want market makers to be extremely efficient when you want to push volume so you want to go for example with a concentrated liquidity protocol while when you want because then trading efficiency is key and that could be much more leverage compared to the liquidity that is actually available while the staking part is actually something that is very passive stay and forget and then it's just normally a classic Farm where you want to gain your passive yield and that and just not look at that anymore but that cannot really be used that liquidity for the trading part as then it implies a certain exposure towards impermanent loss all right guys thank you very much thank you for the panel and big round of applause thank you for listening oh yeah thank you thank you guys