Emerging Markets: Crypto’s Gateway to Unlocking Mass Adoption? - TOKEN2049 Singapore 2024

all right amazing guys um once they solve the scalability issues we'll start solving the user issues um we got a great panel here today we're going to be talking about Emerging Markets as you may know I'm from South Africa which is Emerging Markets we've got a Turk we've got an Argentinian and then we've got an American who had a great fight last night at karate combat but maybe we should just start get like the elephant out of the room do you want to just walk us through the fight yesterday what happened sir I think I I I hit a little bit of a wall with respect to the gas tank but what are you going to do on 47 he's in his 20s you know sometimes he wins some sometimes you lose some but got got nine points on the guy he wrestles for Singapore's national team but he he stuck me pretty good at the end there amazing well you look good for someone who just came out of a fight I'll give you that much thanks um okay so let's talk about uh blockchain usage and I I must say this is a topic which um is quite close to me and the reason why it's quite close to me is if you think about the places where blockchain development has been happening traditionally it's been places like the US places like uh Singapore places like Korea and I always laugh when Americans sit in a boardroom and tell me how the Africans are going to adopt this blockchain technology that that they're building in the United States because they none of them have ever been on the ground hav ever seen how people actually work there and so I always laugh but I do think that blockchain is actually needed in Emerging Markets um if you think about what blockchain is blockchain is effectively the ability to create digital value that you can send and trade uh immediately in the US there's a very very very good Financial system most people are banked you can kind of transfer money wherever you want without any questions being asked there's not really the concept of exchange controls where you're not allowed to take money out the country and when we think about Emerging Markets Argentina turkey South Africa um we have all those problems you can't send money out the country and South Africa we're very limited in fact to give you a good statistic uh in South Africa an individual is allowed to send or to spend or send about $50,000 a year out the country that's it which means that if I'm flying to Singapore and I want to stay at a hotel and the hotel costs me $1,000 a night and and and and and I've pretty much maxed out my entire uh foreign exchange allowance and so I think that Emerging Markets are the key to unlocking it but the question is I haven't seen real use cases other than Bitcoin storing value and stable coins which in the Emerging Markets act as a store of value because you'd rather be in the local in the US dollar versus the local currency and Bitcoin and so I think the the the topic around here today is to a really understand the problem so let's really spend some time understanding the problem from people who understand emerging markets and then understand how and what Emerging Markets need in order for for Bitcoin blockchain stable coin any kind of blockchain application to actually do it so I think um yeah I think I want to start with you Martin because Argentina as we said hit the bottom and and now kind of like turned around tell me about but really about blockchain usage in Argentina like really really yeah so um I think of blockchains as a Leisure to export some kind of financial system to the world in a free way that's very hard to block right so if you think about the dollar that's what most argentinians when they say I'm going to buy dollars it's the equivalent of what an American would say I'm going to save for the future buy dollars is just the burth that that you use dollars are a store of value it is a store of value and people use Dollar Cash and they keep it in the mattress and uh you never sell the dollar it's Diamond hands so it's like uh selling dollars is the equivalent of I'm I'm in a in a tough place right so it's it's a constant buying of dollars and hoarding of dollars uh which is not great right like uh we know money printing is is a continuous thing but it's a lot better than the money printing of the Argentinian peso so argentinians have been trained to essentially escape the Argentinian peso inflation last year was 150% this year it's coming down it's only at 30% annualized is there a is there a limit or I are argen or were argentinians before the new president were argentinians allowed to Hold Us dollars or to buy US dollars or was there a black market where you know like if you wanted to buy US Dollars you'd be paying someone a premium of 10 20 30 40 50% it's still the case actually so um in all of my professional career buying dollars has been restricted whether fully restricted with some permission you can buy $200 at times um the Argentina has had the blue dollar versus the official dollar and the gap between the two has been like 40% % 2x 3x fluctuates but uh if you want to buy dollars usually people mean the blue Market because that's the only Market that exists and uh yeah that's a the free dollar if you will and uh the the official dollar is I know for friends only you could say it's uh legal corruption um but that the real dollar is never never touchable right like most people cannot interact with the with the official Dollar in in Argentina so stable coin coins essentially are a way to disrupt that blue market and if you think about that blue Market it's it's a shop that you have to go underground and you have to exchange paper money you don't know if you're getting Conor fade money or not when you exit they know you have dollars so you're in a place that's not that safe you may you might get robbed and then uh it's very hard to shop for prices you have to go visit several places suddenly you have stable coins and the pandemic which also blocked going to the stores and actually you can buy online and stable coins went completely vertical so if I was in Argentina at the time of stable coins how would I have got my hands onto stable coins what's the what's the money flow I understand when you meet someone in the street and you have a bag of money and you know you give him a bag of money and he shows you that he's transferred stable coins and you don't leave each other until the transaction is complete but if I'm sitting in the pandemic how do I how did I get my hands onto stable coins so when is that like would order through WhatsApp a guy in a motorbike would come with a bag like with a with a phone you would give them a bag of cash they'll give you they send you the USD on Tron most likely and that's a transaction and then a bunch of apps started coming up where you can transfer money uh through the traditional payment system in in Argentinian Pesos and buy through exchanges and the exchanges uh gain gain a lot of momentum and uh today they are the best exchange rate that you can get uh thens anything else how have things changed since kav came into Power I mean he's he's Pro Bitcoin he seems to be very rightwing he seems to be very uh libertarian almost you could say m how have things changed is he still is he still I mean has the rate between the black market dollar or the blue Market dollar and the real rate has that compressed slightly that is compressing massively so there hasn't been one peso printed since mle joined milay took power so the M2 that's amazing yeah he has uh since February he he came in in January January we had a deficit since February to today Surplus uh every month uh inflation is coming down insane so the dollar has been flat the the blue dollar and the official dollar he's like every month like uh increasing moving it until they converge and that's when he's going to he's going to free the market so you would think you don't have to buy dollars anymore because there's nothing coming out of that printing machine but argentinians are tryed to buy dollars so they keep buying them right and I I think that's not going to change anytime soon right like you have 40 Years of people teaching you the like don't buy the peso and people will continue buying dollars I think so I don't have official statistics but what do you think the real statistics are in terms of blockchain adoption in Argentina it was estimated in the United States that between 1 and four and one in five people had some kind of exposure to crypto honestly cuz none of us have been to Argentina or I I mean I've been there before but I haven't been there in my crypto carea uh by the way if any blockchain organizers are watching we need an argentinia blockchain week uh just so we can all go and have a look but what do you think the real rate of adoption is because you know it's easy to say oh wow you know Emerging Markets need crypto but how many people are actually using it yeah I would say it is very high in the niche that you would think actually buy scrypto so if you take out very old people their adoption there is lower my Grandma she's 87 and she uses crypto but that is not the standard some of her friends don't so she uses that because it's easier than going to the shop but she's she's my grandma if you take out the people do don't have any money at the end of the month they also don't use crypto everyone else I would say the adoption is like 80% so it's like it's more likely than not that you will have interacted with crypto and most likely it's going to be stable coins let's move to Turkey so um I guess I guess Argentina was on the way down and they got a very rightwing a very right-wing president and there was a turn uh turkey seems to still be uh if you look at the currency if you look at the economy it seems to still be very much on the way down is crypto really a thing in Turkey like is it is it is it us Bros Here Wanting it to be a thing or is crypto really a thing do people really look to crypto as a store of value yeah sure um so maybe just to put things into context like um Turkish currency has lost its value like USD to Turkish threea conversion rate was around three and then now it's around 33 and that happened in the last five to six years that's we had a short period where everything happened um and then I think at the peak of the currency crisis uh this was the time where people started using cryptocurrencies and State coins mostly for access to US dollar as well as better conversion rates I think in that sense it's pretty similar to what happened in Argentina um one difference is if I understand it correctly so the there's a very wellestablished cryptocurrency exchange ecosystem in Turkey uh there's binance who's actually probably one of the leading and then you have paribu and BTC Turk these are the two largest local cryptocurrency exchanges and the last numbers that I remember back in two years years ago paru had like 7 million users actually and I think it's around probably 10 to 12 million users at this point probably B2 can has another number like that yeah so just for those of you for those of you who don't don't know this I mean we track uh exchange use statistics because our Revenue model involves people signing up to exchanges and one of the most sought after markets in the world is actually turkey turkey for exactly that they seem to be um very crypto Savvy they also seem seem to be a bunch of DJ bro right exactly so so what happened was I think in different cycles of the market there are different use cases that Turkish people are looking for as well it was mostly speculation and nothing else up until 2021 and 21 is when the currency crisis has piqued and this is the time people started using for access to dollars right um and if you go to binance like website traffic um metrix turkey is always top three like I think it's along with some other countries depending on Indonesia Nigeria and some other countries turkey is always up there like one of the top users of buet so I mean there's people that are buying crypto because they are a bunch of degens who want to buy Sundog on Tron Network and the people that are buying crypto because they genuinely want to protect their family's fortunes and or family money against inflation against I'm looking at the depreciation of the L it's a 80% depreciation in in 5 years exactly is is at 20% of its value in The Last 5 Years how many people are actually buying crypto as a hedge like like really as a to protect right I think that number has changed a lot probably it turned from somewhere from 20% 10% all the way to 80% in 2021 I was also one of them like uh we transferred most of the Holdings back in Turkey into US dollar and stable curen es Turkish people normally hold gold like this has been traditionally you buy gold you keep it at your home under your pillow like we have this sort of a culture but then this has quickly translated into usdt and stable coins as well and mostly dollar too so another thing to mention is it's actually very well banked population right like banks are still there operating in a very healthy way uh but then the spread was very high if you wanted to get dollar the spread was very high at the peak currency crisis so that's why people started using cryptocurrency exchanges instead of banks uh now things has settled a little bit so people are going back to Banks but then they already got exposed to cryptocurrencies right I'll actually tell you an interesting story before I come to you Matt um you know everyone talks about Bitcoin and gold and my family my family are from Iraq and in Iraq in the 1950s they expelled all the Jewish people and my family were very rich goldsmiths they were very wealthy they were extremely extremely wealthy Goldsmith and um they gave them 24 hours to leave Iraq they said look in 24 hours you're leaving Iraq and my grand tells me the story of how her family melted the gold into a barrel like a a small Barrel that they could take it with them because it was the whole Fortune when they got to the the flight that that was to move them from Iraq to what was then it it was Israel but just became Israel they said uhuh the gold stays you can go with your CL clothes and your and they literally went from being a very very very rich family to not being able to transport their wealth uh across borders and they landed up in Israel and for the first six years of their life in Israel they lived in a tent in a an intake uh an intake tent so I really understand the the need uh uh so so to speak man I want to go to you because I know you've got some strong opinions around um what we've built in the blockchain economy or what we've built in blockchain in the last couple of years that that that helps for emerging markets we had this discussion uh the other day and I said to you I said kind of like well it seems like all we've built is we've built the ability to transfer Fiat cross borders at the speed of data and a store of value and that's pretty much if I look at the achievements of this industry in the last 10 years I kind of really think that that's all we've built we've built two things one is we've built a digital store of value and two is we've built the ability to take Fiat money digitize it and be able to send it to each other very quickly am I right so I I would start by saying this first of all I I think the the anecdote that you shared just now is so fascinating because that's consistent with my theory that you can really learn so much from Emerging Markets because you have these kind of like extreme mode experiences whereas the the relationship with crypto the use cases the necessity of it can be really much more tenuous in the United States I think um and so at rise with our Emerging Markets competency we have boots on the ground everywhere from Latin America to India China throughout southeast Asia and such so we we are able to have kind of some unique insights in In from from being able to see a a wider landscape and I I think for sure one of the things that we found is that stable coins by far and way are the most astonishing product Market fit in our industry but also I think in in Tech over the last 10 years not just crypto we're pushing on $200 billion right now which in the in the landscape of of trafi is still kind of a small number but this is becoming a really really big business really quickly and you can even look at at facets of that such as tether tether has lowkey built one of the best businesses of modern times right being able billion a year in profits or yeah being able to they have I I think a couple hundred employees and being able to clip that interest quarter after quarter in PL sight they have built one of the best businesses in in in the last decade any industry so I think there's some truth to the fact that our pmf in our industry that we have absolutely nailed down is kind of limited to a subset of things that uh include stable coins and maybe a small number of other things and beyond that we're still in the experimentation stage but I I I I would caution against Tri trivializing an almost $200 billion product Market fit I would kind of start with that but then I I concede there that I think you're initially when I said it to you on the call I said to you that you know we've only created two use cases post reflection actually I think what we created when we created stable coins right is it's mindboggling the ability to send Fiat money from one place to another and and in fact I I think that almost no matter who you're talking to it's the best way to start a a conversation about crypto and why it's actually really cool and kind of important to be able to say what if I were to tell you at dinner here today that I could on from my phone to your phone with a little bit of setup I could send you any amount of USD equivalent from you know three cents to millions of dollars and we could do that and in such a way that it's going to land almost instantaneously and the transaction fee is is a rounding error at best and I I think that's a pretty astonishingly Vivid um way to to say that what we're doing here actually is pretty important especially for people uh you know even that I mean we're still in in t+1 settlement time for much a Trad F we still have to sometimes go through weird approvals to do International wires and stuff like that and to be able to kind of sidestep that and we can do it here at a you know at here up on the on on stage or at a dinner or whatever we can just bang it out it is pretty astonishing to me yeah I I would say even more astonishing it is we are at this stage with stable coins being in practice almost illegal right so very hard to onramp no Bank want to touch it how do you account for them so it is being a ret phenomenon no large business is touching this without an intermediary basically abstracting it to Fiat now imagine next year we get stable coin regulation in the US Bank of America gets in who's not going to buy a Bank of America USD in Turkey in Argentina I think so it's like I I think we're going to be 10 Xing 20 Xing and the the question there is if a huge chunk of the M2 of the money in the world is in stable coins what changes there and this is so interesting to me so so you've hit the nail on the head and I think two things here one is the importance of a trump presidency or not or a a crypto-friendly presidency which the Democrats right now are not showing I would say it doesn't matter who wins the treasury needs to find buyers of bonds and the the only opinion like the only place you can find a trillion dollars of bonds to put in is remove the Argentinian peso the Turkish dra and replace it with dollars and how do you do that in a cost-efficient way I cannot think of any other way than than stable I think it's going to be yelen or whoever comes after pushing Congress and saying hey we need this do it with your mouth shat and pass pass this regulation so I think a lot of people don't realize what you're saying but there's a chart that shows the amount of government US government treasuries that uh tether Corporation holds relative to countries and it's becoming one of the biggest holders in the world of of of us treasuries and so as much as maybe the US government doesn't like uh uh usdt it's a client it's a client is a client of the government yeah and sorry if I may here here's the thing too which is so interesting to me I I think people in general are seriously underestimating the extent to which United States dollar hemony is being chipped way at as people start to move towards R&B settlement Russia has a lot of incentives as we know a lot of these things can happen very slowly and then kind of all at once as the famous saying goes right and so I I think what and and I know in in our crypto industry some people would would would question the idea of if USD hemony is actually something that's good for the United States and that's a maybe a separate conversation the mainstream economic consensus though says it's extremely important and if we were to just accept that premise for a moment and and think about the fact that to some extent USD hemony is on the wi the best way to actually extend the runway of USD hemony is for the United States to go all in on crypto because even though it's a rounding error today in $200 billion is enormous but it's also in the scheme of international transactions it's still a rounding error but the the the the rate of increase this is our best way if you accept that USD hemony is overwhelmingly in the National interest of the United States which is the mainstream consensus and I would suggest that that is a true thing um the the way to prolong that is for the United States stes government to absolutely go all in on crypto M let me the number one best way let me do some math so there's $140 trillion in know Fiat combining everything 20 trillion of that is US Dollars 10 in the United States and 10 outside EUR dollar market yeah so 10 over 1/3 it's about 8% market share that's the share of the dollar of the offshore Market that is with no one can open a US dollar bank account in most countries right uh that is with the cost of only having this US dollar bank accounts been very expensive because you have all this correspondent banking system the Swift payment is very slow like all these restrictions now put like I think that is the kind of the web one era and suddenly you're putting like Sable coins which is like you Amazon the thing you you put it online you make it very easy can we double that market share from 8 to 16 I think it's very reasonable but is another 10 trillion in stable coins yeah so I think what we need is we need we need the us Administration whoever it is to buy into it and and to see the vision and I think it I think it's becoming almost inevitable and I would go as far as to say that that's maybe one of the reasons why they haven't attacked tether as hard as they probably could have attack tether if if if they wanted to do that I also think that we started this discussion by saying seems to me like developed markets are de are building products for emerging markets so if we think about the blockchain development hubs in the world USA still a big development Hub Korea still a big development Hub Singapore still a big development Hub I think the one country that's the best product Market fit for emerging market applications of crypto is India because India has a unique environment where they have I think amongst the best developers in the world or certainly the best engineers in the world and they live in an Emerging Market environment where I don't know if you guys have been to India but they have the ultimate use case for crypto in in everything that they do um yet I haven't seen an Indian uh uh indianara um uh stable coin uh I mean I see a US stable coin I think the government's very much against it I think for me that's where where the big opportunity lies any thoughts on on India and India opportunities um maybe just one thing like um about just going to before going to India so in Turkey when the the government now created this license framework so cryptocurrency exchanges can apply for it then operate freely in the country but then from the beginning they just prevented one thing from happening and that was the payment area so they said you can do anything you want in Turkey but you cannot get into payment industry so this is something that they want to keep their HED of money on you cannot get into payments right so you cannot use any cryptocurrencies for payments in real life that's that's I can't walk into a stor turkey and you cannot right so this is the sort of like the red line that they have drawn over there but you can transfer your money from your bank account to cryptocurrency exchange and buy whatever you want so what you're saying is the Turkish government is of the opinion that its residents are allowed to gamble on shitcoins right but whatever you do don't use right so the implication of of that is I think what they're seeing is if you start using it for payments this is basically the acceptance of this stable coins in real life right like it's going to get much more adoption for the stable coin so that was one thing so now going back to India actually uh we invested in this company called flint and they wanted to build this sort of Railway for people to put their money into their account on the centralized exchanges and they were going to use this money on the centralized exchanges and go farm yields in the D so they could pay pay back the Indian people with the D5 Farm yields right and the people who were building it the entrepreneurs they used to work at one of the largest startups like borrowing Landing startups in India we invested in this back in 2021 but it quickly became clear that they're not going to be able to operate uh because the Indian government was Banning crypto like they they just turn switch their opinions on crypto India is pretty similar to China in that sense I think like there's this allowance of crypto for little period and then quickly it turns the other way around so the company Flint had to Pivot into something else after that yeah I think look I mean it's a personal thing and I mean obviously the Indian government has got their own calculations but to me if I was the president of a country that had the best engineering skills or amongst the best engineering skills in the world and and you know India is very much a country that's on the up I would want to encourage as much as much of it as possible because I've got the use case and I've got the developers in my own in my own backyard which is quite rare like I I don't see a use case for blockchain in the United States I mean I lived in the United States I can do everything I want un chased bank with no restrictions I mean buying the fact that when I want to do a wire transfer they want to do a DNA sample I mean buing that I mean you can pretty much do whatever you want but um I think India is is a unique use case let's talk about other use cases so we've spoken about transferring stable coins from one place to another we spoke about buying Bitcoin as a store of value which I think is a great store of value um I'll tell you a quick story about store of value I before I got into crypto I built and sold a marketing company took me s s 16 years to build and sell the biggest marketing company in Africa I sold the marketing company um it's a very public transaction so I sold it for over $150 million but I signed the deal in in January and it took 9 months for the transaction for people you've never sold a company before when you sell a company you don't just sign the document and then your company is sold it goes through a process of there's the anti-monopoly commission that has to give you like a green light and then there are a whole lot of conditions that you have to do before the actual sale gets done and you actually get your money I signed the document and my transaction was in the South African currency which is called the South African rand I signed the transaction on in January and I got paid in September what do you think the depreciation in my purchase price was between January and September so I signed a document in Jan and I sold I got paid in September what do you think the US dollar depreciation was in that period 30% so when I signed the document the the exchange rate on the African currency was 1 to 950 when I got paid it was 1 to 1680 which means that I worked for 16 years I built a most incredible amazing amazing amazing business but currency depreciation made me lose 40% of my wealth and it was completely out of my control so when I say we've only created a store of value and we've only created an ability to transfer Fiat those are big things but I want to move on to other things that that's why the pmf for stable coins pegged to currencies other than USD is so limited people don't want it USD Peg stable coins are the lingua fracka of the digital franka I'm pronouncing it wrong the the native currency of the digital world is USD it's not Bitcoin yeah and it's not going to be other currencies either the I will always take the under on adoption of stables pegged to currency that are not the United States dollar which again is why if which is why the dollar is the USD hemony as a in the in the National interest in United States again that's that's why it works people don't want all these other Stables Peg to other currencies they just don't yeah and and if you look in Argentina for example they aren't using bit the Bitcoin as a uh as an inflation hedge they they want St they want usdt yeah I would say there is a use case for local stable coins but it's going to be 90 98% USD right and then the margin is going to be Forex and onof simplicity so those two use cases I see but it's not a Hoster of value it's a money in movement facilitation so the so the truth then is which is so fascinating because for years and years now we've talked about uh Bitcoin as the inflation head but if you look at the extrem mode scenarios actual hyperinflation what are people doing they overwhelmingly use usdt or other or or or die other overwhelmingly use United States dollar backed stable coins as their inflation Hench they're actually not using Bitcoin so when I got into blockchain a long time ago one of the ideas that I saw was a a guy told me about a farm or a bunch of farmers in Rwanda who want to ensure their crops and unfortunately they couldn't get information about the quality of the soil but since they found that the farmers in Rwanda could be rewarded in cryptocurrency they could give them uh any any farmer could do an assessment and log it on his mobile phone and earn cryptocurrency that obviously never happened still hasn't happened what I'm looking at is I'm looking for other use cases in emerging markets that Empower people but don't involve I mean obviously involve transfer of value but aren't just buying of a stable coin or buying of Bitcoin are there any other use cases that you guys have seen in emerging markets that people are actually using yes several so crossb payments obviously import export I think that's well documented you're in Argentina and you want to import bananas from eator it's way easier to pay in usdt uh to do that I think other things are popping up is uh kind of like secured loans backed by stable coins so the owner of an SNB goes to a bank the bank will never lend them money I put stable coins on a multi with a with the bank myself and a chosen third party I put my my stable coins there the bank is comfortable lending me uh pesos at a at a peso rate so are you are you saying that there is a bank in Argentina that is comfortable to take stable coins as collateral with an intermediary it's called a a a cosigner there are businesses that do cosigning these businesses are doing that and they're seeing the stable coins and then they tell the bank I will cosign and these loans are happening S&B loans in pesos back by stable coins I mean I know that if I went in South Africa to the bank and I told them that I had stable coins all probability that close my account let alone let me let me take more money from them yeah know and that's why we we're saying stable coins are illegal you have to have an intermediary there is this cosigner companies this I imagine every country has them right uh which allows someone to underwrite and essentially offboard the risk from the bank and these Underwriters are the ones that are taking these table coins and going to the bank and saying the bank this customer will pay and I'll take their I'll take the risk if they don't pay and then the bank is lending you what I'm looking for I think what I'm looking for is I'm looking for applications that create wealth in Emerging Markets one of them we saw in the previous Bull Run was AI Infinity right where we had a game and these game farms popped up in Emerging Markets such as Philippines and people started making money because of blockchain now look the a Infinity since then went up and down and Etc but are there any other applications where you're creating opportunities in emerging markets for emerging market people using blockchain other than just protecting your money so there's one of it one of it is protect and one of it is how can we create wealth in Emerging Markets I think that most of them are not sexy but it's Freelancers in Argentina this estimated 100,000 Freelancers work offshore and get paid in crypto these are normal designer your normal like executive assistant uh not doable in the in the real system because you get paid and you get cut half your salary because you nationalize the dollar at the official rate so it's I allowing allowing Emerging Market people specifically in Argentina anywhere else in the world to be exposed to a US dollar market is a big thing to export to essentially you're you're allowing Freelancers to get paid so you enable this population to work at a higher value per hour uh rate I mean I just want to just touch on that point for one sec just to give you guys an idea the the parity between example South Africa and South Africa is not cheap not as cheap as India and maybe even Argentina but the difference in hiring for example a graphic designer is about three times the amount in the USA and so companies actually Outsource on the web for much cheaper right which is again creating Emerging Market opportunities because exposing them to to higher rates which are still lower than the US rate I was just going to say that real world applications are always going to sound a little boring in state compared to the nonsense we talk about on crypto Twitter so it it's always going to sound a little bit like Martin stories from just now but it's really important and you know every day not just the people in this room but everyone all around the world every day day after day week after week etc etc we spend more and more of our time in the digital realm whether we like it or not whether it's healthy or not honestly the time we spend touching grass is is less and crypto is going to be the rails for this even though it is early days to some extent okay so we got about a minute left um best application other than store of value other than uh usdt stable coin best application for emerging markets uh in crypto maybe something that brings convenience like um I've been living in China for the last eight years and we use WeChat there for everything from payments to like the velocity of money is much higher because it's much easier to send and receive money and I think in Turkey although we have a very well established banking system still the velocity is not as high and payments and everything is much expensive so stable coins and payments will payments built on stable coins will bring that down and I think it's going to make life more convenient as well overall actually I was going to say the ability to transfer money over a messenger app right the ability to transfer crypto over a messenger app for me is the is the best application of crypto that is why we're big investors in ton because best distribution and have a blockchain and and a line for integration but that was going to be my one uh Martin your one I would say it's um with stable coins you suddenly have a way to build the whole like the banking checking savings payments that that account and uh in Argentina you see it you you can not have an I don't have normal bank account in Argentina I do everything through crypto my card I receive payments I I pay payments I pay in my local shop everything happens through a crypto Ena Bank uh which are how the the exchanges they are competing and it's it's so much better okay those things flashing at us it's telling us to get off the stage more more and more applications that we use in daily life whether it be a fitness app or this that or the other whether we realize it or not they're going to be games and crypto will be an enormously powerful gamification tool that people will be Ed it'll be the rails for this to happen amazing guys thank you so much guys thank you so much thank you thank you guys