Public Digital Infrastructure for a New Financial Era | DC Fintech Week 2025

Thank you. Uh it's a thank you John and for the organization and and also for my to my world and colleagues for setting this uh putting this together. Um and I think that this this panel is is quite timely given the ongoing conversations around new technologies and new approaches to to uh to payments. So to set up the context I would like to first give a brief definition of what is uh what are digital public infrastructures and also try to to bring to the forefront the the relevance that they have in in this increasingly digitized economy. So uh digital public infrastructures are basically the digital rails on which essential and basic services are provided to the whole of society.

And we have identified at least three types of of digital public infrastructures. One is uh digital payments. Second one is digital ID and the third one is is data exchange. And I I I mentioned that the discussion is timely because obviously right now there is a ongoing discussions on tokenization, artificial intelligence, stable coins. But at the World Bank we see uh uh two parallel realities in terms of of DPIs and and we we want to stress that that while we see a lot of success in in some countries in terms of the scaling of this this type of systems Brazil is one of the examples but we have others in India, Malaysia and so on.

Other countries are still struggling in this in this uh journey and still uh are are unable or do not have sufficient resources or face competition issues, structural issues, connectivity issues in terms of deploying uh digital public infrastructure. So one question is how new technologies uh can support the these journeys? How can we bring together these new technologies to enhance digital public infrastructure? But maybe more critical questions arise in terms of what is the priority that we should give to the different topics when when we think about modernization of the of the financial sector. So this is this is the the the the what we want to to explore today with our panelists and we have a a stellar group of panelists that have obviously they dominate the theory but they are actually practitioners in the in the field.

So they can provide us with great inputs and views on on this this this set of issues. Uh let me introduce them uh by the order of of their on which they will be presenting the remarks. H start with the Rebecca man from the Gates Foundation. She's a deputy director working on inclusive financial systems. We have Marcelo Aragalo from the Central Bank of Brazil.

He's the head of international affairs working on international payment initiatives. We also have Mr. Jun from the the Bank of Korea. He's director general for digital currency research and he's exploring CBDC and other technology innovation initiatives in the country. And we have Jennifer Fowler from the financial stability board.

She's member of the secretariat and she works on that exchange board with a strong focus on on crossber payments. So happy to have them all here and and I will start with uh with Rebecca and and and the the Gates Foundation has been working a lot in in in the in the in the field of digital public infrastructure and you have been helping countries in many regions uh to deploy this type of of of DPIs and I want to to emphasize that we we were going to we are going to focus on on payments and and we want to learn from you and hear you on what are the challenges what are the the steps that or missteps that countries face when when implementing DPIs. So, Rebecca, thank you.

Uh, well, first I want to thank my friends at the World Bank and the Bank of International Settlements for bringing us here and doing such incredible work in this area. And I wanted to start with a story. Uh, in the summer of 2015, I was doing some field work for my PhD in India. It was in a city uh called Gualia, which is in the state of Madhya Pradesh. And I was at a small roadside banking kiosk.

I think it was SBI, State Bank of India. And a woman walked in and she told the agent that she wanted to get uh the payments that she was entitled to for the government for a for her child. She put her finger on a little uh kind of biometric authentication device where her ADHA number, her kind of digital ID had been linked to a government database probably the week before. [snorts] and the agent kind of, you know, looked in her account, cashed out the money and gave it to her. And so the full value of her entitlements had moved from the state treasury into her bank account into her hands in under 48 hours.

And it's hard to emphasize like what an incredible achievement this is. Rajiv Gandhi in 1985 said that for every rupee the Indian government spends on its citizens, only 15% reach poor people. And in this case, you know, this woman received 100% of it instantly into her hands. And so what amazed me about this wasn't the technology, it was really the trust in the system and that came from three like very intentional design principles. And to go to kind of the challenges um and the opportunities for country, we see that you know systems work best when they are inclusive.

That's the first one. So when systems are designed in a way that they are neutral platforms um that they're not for example single use case like voting or banking or getting your kind of government payments and so that tends to avoid segmentation where people who don't get those benefits or are women or are migrants or don't have formal papers get left behind. The second principle you know we would emphasize is interoperability that when systems are built with open standards preferably open source um they are flexible in a way that closed loop systems can't be um and that provides kind of flexibility. It allows innovation both in the public sector which we're going to hear about from my colleagues here and also in the private sector and it avoids kind of problems like vendor lockin that we've seen in some countries that have gone with like kind of proprietary solutions. And then the third is like data minimization.

Um and I think this is where some of the biggest missteps can be. Collecting the minimal amount of data and storing it safely is absolutely critical to ensuring public trust. um and it's the countries that we have seen leading with this principle rather than adding it as an afterthought thought are kind of the ones that have the most resilient systems. So those are kind of the three principles I'd emphasize in terms of missteps. You know digital ID is a very contentious issue and for some good reason.

And so we would say in any kind of case where a digital ID is used as an instrument of surveillance or oppression um or predation by the state then you know that is absolutely rather than a tool of empowerment you know that's going to be a problem. The second is where um you know those interoperability um properties are sacrificed to proprietary interests which is something that we do see and you know we hope can be avoided. And I think the last is where systems are deployed before accountability and governance systems are in place. There's been some very unfortunate instances where government benefits have been linked to ID systems for example that were not operating properly um or perfectly and people who were entitled to their benefits kind of poor people who needed that money were not able to get it and that you know was catastrophic and so kind of avoiding those missteps and kind of leading with those principles is where we would start.

Thank you. Thank you Rebecca. Uh Marcelo Pix is a is a great success, right? And uh we we want you to share with us uh the the secret sauce of of the of this success. Uh maybe you can you can walk us through the lessons that that uh you have learned, but also maybe if you were if the Central Bank of Brazil were to go back in time, what what would the Central Bank would do would do different?

Good afternoon everybody. First I'd like to thank my colleagues from BIS and World Bank. It's very kind as it's very happy to be here among friends. It's very nice to meet new people and make more friends and so on. and Rebecca made a great a great introduction for us all setting the context and telling the story that we can quite relate to and I would so let's try not to be too technical and come uh introduce picss also for the story similar um this tries to answer question uh so we have been discussing central bank uh all sorts of innov innovations uh that is happening in the landscape looking to other countries experience.

We strongly believe that we should be catalysts. We should uh be humble and learn from others and see other countries experience and so on. And we are looking all this sort of technologies uh central bank digital currencies fast payment systems open finance uh also uh we're not responsible too in terms of mandate but looking digital uh digital infrastructures in general and I'll try not to be prescriptive here but then the we all face a huge let's say a generational challenge which was the pandemic in 2020. At the time we have some effort committed to a fast payment system and uh we decide at the time that was timely to let's say anticipate launch to put effort on this. So this is a part of although the moment is very sad this is personally sad for many of us.

Uh it was a stroke of vision and luck because this was the time that Brazil and like other countries was facing this kind of digital transformation. People are very concerned about face-to-face interactions. people are very concerned about uh let's say uh even using cash and uh and then goes two points. So now if we just move four years if you walk on the uh streets in Brazil and Brazil is a poor country is likely that you see a bagger on a traffic light with a QR code of his mobile number. That's the way they collect money now.

cashews age in Brazil they felt from 70% of all payments to less than 40%. So in a sense this digital transformation now cannibalize mostly cash cash age and this became an opportunity. The idea from the beginning was to have something abiding more or less the same principles that Habbeca has just introduced it to us. We want something that was open, simple. Uh inclusion has to do with simplicity, especially it has to come with literacy, but it it needs some simplicity.

We're not trying to achieve all things on the same uh on the same goal. It has to be in a sense accessible to everybody but also open to participants. It's not something and this is uh one thing about DPIs is this platform model. So we want all the sectors of the society to engage in providers and consumers in a sense. So I have some numbers here just to to contextualize uh when we launch it we have 1.

4 4 million users already record. Now we have 160 which for a country who has 20 uh 210 million people 15 million businesses 900 institutions are capable and reg uh they are authorized regulated and supervised to provide payment service through pix uh transactions on the first four years of 2021 was around 9 billion num in numbers Now in 2024 635 trillions of US dollars you have moved it on uh on let's say last year and our accounts our forecast now is on this month on this very month we surpass 2024. Uh this is half of the all digital payments in Brazil. This is quarter of all payments in Brazil. This is on our estimated $25 US added to our GDP.

But the most important is we double our indices of financial inclusion and we also uh I mentioned cash uh cash usage cash ownership also raised it and this was a good opportunity for banks for new incomers fintex and even for big tax and is interesting to see this is a a kind of a movement on the digital transformation because Even payments in Brazil like traditional ones like credit cards they grow uh on the sidelines of PS what we have seen experience reductions was first physical cash and some kind of w transfers that bank used to do so it's simple now everybody has account to account and do we have uh let's say uh secret source I think we have to hear ramble because we spend so many years thinking about and looking through what other institutions are doing. Pay attention to the what hurts our citizens. Uh in terms of this uh when the government starts some fiscal let's say reliefs during the pandemics some people flock it in the streets uh well in the bank branches to collect benefits but this was the least desirable thing to do was to kill on the bank branch to just get access to some benefit and that's what like the first I think we have to work harder we have to work over after hours and you have to make this happen faster and this was uh produces us I think in I would say four years we transform the way people pay people shop even the way people communicate uh people back to you

thank you thank you so much Marcelo so [clears throat] so we are kind of getting a sense that common features for successful for DPI is designing for inclusivity, right? And and and now talking about the DPI is is I would say is a is a new term for all systems. Fast payment systems for example have been there for a long time. And now I I will would like to ask someone Korea has was I think it was the the first payment system that was running on a 247 basis which is uh very mo very advanced by by by by by the 2000s. And then you implemented an open finance or open banking framework and also provided infrastructure which is very different from what we see normally with open banking which there's a standards but no not so much supporting the infrastructural part.

So what are the the lessons that you can share with us in this in this journey? Thank you.

Yeah, [clears throat] thank you for having me here and then give an opportunity to speak. Uh I think it uh uh Brazil has a picss and then correspondingly well same kind of a system is we have a EBS electronic electronic banking system that was introduced uh 2001 it's quite a long time ago actually names implies that it's a bank centric so only the bank can have access to that payment system so it's 247 it's not algous uh uh but this is the DNA as a deferred net settlement uh uh way that so uh and then uh started with the banks and then one decade later and then securities companies actually security broker companies actually they they started to talking about the fees because the fees that you know and actually when you fund a transfer you have to pay fees right because because the securities company they have customers the customers after they impose some kind of fees that so security companies are complaining about the fees that is too high that imposed by the banks actually so they started to uh to open up the uh payment system EBS so so we have a struggle two years they a lot of a discussion and then we ended up well we're going to allow interactive access uh opportunity why given to them and then that issues settled and then one decade later then fintech companies started up the big tax actually they're going to mess a lot of amu and then transaction volume is going to increase and then they also started to talking about the fees so that is imposed by the banks so at the time actually because I was a central bank and actually we really struggled how how to do we going to respond to that whether you're going to have given an access access to the payment system or I don't know indirect access policy I think there was a lot of discussion but we ended up having established a new type of payment system but this is a very designated for fintex and big tax. So this is a separate payment system. So actually we started EBS but we have a open banking system. Well, not is something like a US UK's type of open banking system, but it's a very centralized banking system.

Not a bilateral uh relationship based on one between banks and the fintex, but it's a centralized. There is a one intermediary central central intermediary. They're going to organize APIs all over them. This is kind of a new type of payment system actually. So, this is uh payment system setup for the fintex.

Now uh now actually when you look back to that this why because there there I think there are three possible I think policy choices we might have something that because the fees is too high then I think the competitiveness and compet competitive you know authority might intervene actually they're going to force them whether is the fees is reasonable or not think it but competitive authority did not do anything at all. Second thing is that you know central bank actually have to have open mind that I think the pix case that already allowed the big tech and fintex have access to the payment system but at the time we are very conservative actually we didn't open up that one that we chose that the last one actually we created a new payment system so the payment system actually fiber pick I mean you know and it's going to be divided two system actually so if you ask me do that what would it do if you what case that then I um and at this time actually I would say that I would have better that have open access to even fintech and a vict because that because we can if they're going to participate in this bigger payment system I think we're going to create a network effect that's actually that's a beneficial to end us just because they have you know one access then that's uh I think it uh something that I'm thinking of that it's a good policy So I think it now is a 10 years of the past. Now this is a crypto bank crypto fintex now is probably I think it I think it is the case that uh uh federal reserve also is facing that same dilemma that the fintech banks actually wanted to have a master account with federal reserve. So I think the central bank now facing the same challenging I think that this is a time that we have to think about.

Thank you. Thank you so much. Uh and Jennifer, you you have a a global view of of um particularly with your work on on crossber payments. And when we think at the bank on on crossber payments, we we are sometimes concerned about domestic payments being ready for for uh for being interlin with other other jurisdictions. You don't want amplification of domestic risk into the international community.

So, so what are what are what is the the FSB looking in in in terms of of this challenge? Do you see challenges on on domestic uh DPI? Thank you.

No, thank you. Thank you for the chance to be part of the panel. Um I'm sure some of you are wondering what does the FSB have to do with any of this the financial stability board. Um and the answer is that we're looking at exactly that question is when you take the domestic infrastructures and try to make them work cross border which is really the ultimate goal um what are the issues that arise and what are the issues that arise as it relates to data and it turns out that data is really central to making those systems work um for consumers for for end users. So five years ago, the FSB was given the the task of coordinating the the work under the G20's roadmap for enhancing crossber payments.

I know many of you are familiar with this. It has four goals to make payments faster, cheaper, more accessible, more transparent. And so when we started to look at well what are the problems that are preventing us from be able to achieve those goals? A central issue that is causing friction in the crossber payment system is the issue of a misalignment of data frameworks. And I think we're the only people that use this term data frameworks, but it really relates to the data rules and regulations and and standards for how you would share data across border.

And so what we found is a lot of those frictions are arising from you know misalignment of different different approaches to data privacy across borders where or actual conflict between you know what is required from an AML CFT perspective and what is required from a data privacy and protective perspective. We found that actually the increase in data localization has a chilling effect on investment um in crossber payment infrastructures and interlinking. So what we have done is create some policy recommendations for how to do this at the at the international level um what do you need to do as a jurisdiction to try to get get the right legal and regulatory framework in place to try to resolve some of these frictions. Um, one of the big things we found in the work that we did is actually something that sounds so simple and yet is so hard, which is we found that actually all of the stakeholders that are involved in solving crossber data sharing never talk to each other. They never are in the same room speaking with each other.

So data privacy and protection folks don't really meet with AMLCFT folks. They don't really talk to sanctions compliance people. They don't really engage with payments experts that much. So what we've done is create a forum for all of those stakeholders to meet together. Um again it sounds so simple and yet so difficult.

Um but we've had we've started a forum on crossber payments data to bring together all those stakeholders and it's really in its infancy but the idea is to really have those folks that are implementing these systems domestically to talk to each other about what it looks like in a crossber way and really focus on practical solutions. So what are the real PLA practical things that you can do when you look at all these different legal and regulatory frameworks that are sometimes in conflict. So that's that's the approach we're taking and it's really on the data sharing piece.

Thank you. And and now moving a bit to the the second uh part of the of the panel. uh and when we talk about DPIs and I mentioned at the beginning uh this is a combination of different infrastructures is not only payments it's also that exchange is also digital identity and in the financial services sector all of this is relevant there is a huge disconnect between digital ID uh authorities and regulators in the financial sector so and yet there is a lot of efficiencies that can be can be a you can achieve from this this type of of uh partnerships. So uh Rebecca what what are the views of you and the the foundation on on on these linkages? How can this be achieved?

What are the use cases that you see? For example, can this resolve inclusivity issues or or support them? Can this resolve the issues around data privacy? Uh what what are your views here? Thank you.

Um, so I think we would say that each of the DPI building blocks have their own utility, but it's when they can be combined that you really get the magic in terms of benefits of inclusion, kind of new digital um, economy kind of opportunities, um, cost reductions. Um, but sometimes the building blocks can be a precursor for each other. Um, so for example, we started our work on payments kind of a long time ago, but we realized that, you know, your payment system can only be in inclusive as your digital as your ID base. Um, and if we're working in in a country where, you know, there's a woman who doesn't have a passport, she doesn't have a driver's license, um, her address is the house under a banana tree, oh, and six other families live there. Like, that's a problem in terms of onboarding her into the financial service system.

And so that's why we started the work around digital ID to make sure that our work on digital payments which is our main focus actually is inclusive. Um in terms of use cases kind of to the example I spoke about earlier you know it's where you know governments can you know pay citizens or send them benefits um not just because they can uh send the money directly into an account but also because they can um authenticate them. they can kind of um you know make sure that their entitlements are correct. Um and there's lots of examples of this like we saw during the pandemic in India the fact that they had a digital payment system but they also were able to kind of uniquely identify citizens meant that they could send the money much faster than almost I think any other country was able to move in terms of pandemic related kind of income support. Um, conversely, in countries like the one we're in right now, which doesn't have that kind of base, they had a very robust kind of, you know, pandemic income support kind of program, but there were kind of after the fact large kind of you many reports of um, you know, duplicate claims, kind of people who were not entitled to them.

And that was because in a situation where like speed and accuracy was of essence, they just weren't able to kind of authenticate um you know the people who had those entitlements. And so be it kind of paying teachers or paying health workers in remote areas in some of the countries we work, be it um you know making sure that kind of women and families get the payments they need. Um also kind of reducing kind of corruption. um you know we saw in Nigeria when they started authenticating um uh civil uh servants that many kind of ghost workers were kind of removed from the um payrolls kind of uh leading to kind of huge savings. So there are so many different use cases of where they can be combined.

Um in terms of the data exchange layer, that's probably like the frontier and I think there's a lot of exciting opportunities where they can kind of connect. But to my earlier comments about, you know, making sure that the right safeguards are in place and privacy is protected. Um you know, I think that will be the future in in a few years.

Thank you. Thank you very much. Very very helpful. And uh maybe um Marcelo thinking that probably for particularly instant payment systems, fast payment systems, the the new frontier could be crossber payments, right? Particularly in in jurisdictions like Brazil that have already somehow resolved the domestic uh payments infrastructure issue.

What is the the role of the of the central banks in terms of facilitating these interlinkages? For example, Rebecca made great points on digital ID and that exchange being kind of prerequisites. For example, to allow a person to have a an account, right? If you don't have a appropriate ID, you may have issues accessing payment services. So, what what can central banks do uh with DPI and also in coordination uh with other authorities for for this purpose?

Okay. So let's try to I'll try to break down uh your answer in parts and also try to connect with uh my distinguished colleagues have pointed. Uh the first thing I would like to stress is that well I have mentioned that we start discussing epics way before uh the launch but this was not the original plan. The original plan was in a sense being a catalyst and forc the market to convert to something that was digital, fast, open and so on. So we tried for several years at the market uh to come up with a solution comparable to what we see in other countries like Korea and so on.

But we had this coordination problem and so we decide to step in. So the role of a public institution or the central bank in particular is not really overstep the the market or in assess but there are moments that you have to go beyond your role of NSS and without departing from your mandate of financial stability but you see that there's something that is dragging down the economy and you you should do more well data is something that is very related to most of the frictions that uh in a sense prevents payments domestically in cross border and so on. So the systems are closed loop typically do and that's in a sense although I'm not say that pix is a let's say it's a payment system per se but every time you transfer value you also transfer information to some sense and there are some things that uh happen domestically that you cannot translate easily for instance I lost I mentioned that the banks uh lost uh revenues from w transferred On the other hand, they get information. So people who go to bank branches and withdraw all the salary on the beginning of the month and only return 30 days after to the next uh salary. Now they pay everything using pics and they generate a huge data stream for the banks to to offer added value services like credit, insurance.

this guy pays his electricity bill punctually every month and so on is of this value and so on. So he might be more trustworthy for a credit line than than other and that's why credit card roes rose on the wake of picks and other services as well. But then uh things that you can do domestically when you have control of the legal apparatus not a control you understand that the legal apparatus is set is defined and take this is origin is something that you cannot really translate let's not forget that payments at the end of the day a finality is a fulfillment of a h of a legal contract and then that comes the challenges that although the uh domestic DPI uh arrangements can be quite successful and with uh mix of lack and good decisions in terms of that capturing this network effects cross border also require certain things like proper data sharing framework a proper harmonization of uh legal and tax standards because some uh this is something that has to be addressed as well. IMLCFT uh also is not that homogeneous. Most of the countries subscribe to to FAT recommendations.

But there are nuances in the way you implement this. There are nuances in the way you fight. All these things has to be taken into account. And to summarize what we see now is very judiciously we recognize that the private sector in terms of crossber payment it does a good services and address many of these frictions but does so selectively. it does for profitable very profitable corridors and as the time passes on the number of profitable corridors are less and less and that's the thing that may call upon like uh we have tried it in the past the market to solve and then we have to step in to have this more level played field perhaps central banks and other institutions will have to step in the game just because there is this market Incompleteness is market failure.

And to finish in a world that we run the risk of more geo fragmentation, more split perhaps market failures will tend to propagate or to disseminate rather than reduce. And so uh this public digital infrastructure at least a more proactive role in terms of forcing might be a way that we need to resort to to counterain also this movement please. Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you. Uh and and over to to Sun on on on his views uh uh K Is this on?

Yeah. to someone uh we want to get your views on thank you so much on the on on CBDC and and CBDC normally is very much discussed in in isolation right now when you think about digital ID you know or at least we haven't heard like we are going to integrate a digital ID wallet with uh CBDC maybe some jurisdictions those but but in general this discussion is very very much isolated So, so would be great to hear your views on on how DPI can bring in innovations like CBDC in particular. Thank you.

Yeah. Yeah. I think that because the current payment system is accountbased, right? I think that I believe it that the future is everything is a tokenized. I think it here that we everybody hear that tokenization.

I think so. I believe that the future is a tokeniz it. I think that then is the question is is the money. Who's going to tokenize money? I think that stable coin issues they say that we're going to tokenize money.

But I think that but money is actually is uh create I think central bank definitely has to say something on tokenization of money. So my bank actually central bank and we take initiative we're going to tokenize the money first and then so we provide uh our job is we thought that we're going to provide like a foundation on each that on top of each that you know commercial bank can issue money okay tokenize something that so we started with the you know BIS and then the concept of unified ledger where that central bank of money that is a horse central bank of money actually that is a tokenized And then uh commercial bank money tokenized actually on the same platform actually. So, so think about it and use a perspective actually what's the meaning of the tokenized the money and tokenized deposit actually that is actually converting their deposit into tokenized the deposit I think so what's the difference between that you know what what debit credit card so I think it is the same thing because that they're going to download the digital wallet that they're going to put money in it in it that is the tokenized deposit the only the difference is I think it is the programmability. I think that's the difference. I think that so so now now is our working on a project that is is that we going to try to find the use cases of a tokeniz deposit.

I think it because because you hear a lot of from the stable coin issues society that actually because that token deposits is useless not useless but much but actually is the compar to the st is not a competitive but actually my experience is is that we are teamed up with the administrative finance that uh because the government actually you know large portion of the money actually distributed as a benefits sometimes those money funding some kind of programs but they involve a lot of you know frauds you know right so so if the ministry of finance actually they're going to utilize our system where that tokenizer deposit going to be utilized then this because the programmable that means that certain conditions going to satisfied the money is going to be immediately transferred so this kind of programmability actually benefited you know finding you know froze something like that so that's I think the first benefit that why tokconizer deposit is a good thing. The second thing is is that because this is uh I have to explain it about the background context that Korea as I said everybody has a credit cards not debit card everybody has a de credit cards but you know that credit card has a interchange fees that is one or two sometimes three 3% right this is huge money think about it the government distributed money right the benefits other you know subsidies and then and then people pay with those money in a merchant and the merchant and have to pay this interchange fees. This is a lot. But if they relying on our system, this is a public pl infrastructure, right? Then the cost is going to be getting really down.

We're going to because we're based uh very you know simple fee structure. So, so I think the uh future is the the payment system future is tokenize the payment right tokenize the money. So, who's going to provide such a kind of infrastructure? I think that the public sector side should start I think that's our initiative started.

Thank you. Thank you. Now, now moving into into new technologies that are outside of the financial sector realm. Uh Jennifer, we we know that um that right now, for example, there is an increased number of of fraud given the the digitization of the economy, usage of digital payments and so on. Still this seems to be a financial sector issue, but that has expanded with digital platforms, with e-commerce, with other let's say attack surfaces.

So what what is the the the FSB thinking on on this issue and and and what what is the level of coordination needed for for tackling this this topic? Thank you.

It's a great question. Um you know when I talked about the goals of the road map earlier, I should have also said that we want to keep payments safe. So we don't want just them to be faster, we want them to be safe as well. So fraud is really, you know, a huge issue now and that it jeopardizes that goal, I think. Um but it goes again back to what I said about domestic versus crossber.

So we see across the landscape so many jurisdictions have done incredible work on anti-fraud domestically but then the question is when what is what is happening in the crossborder fraud um issue and that the level of coordination that's required is enormous there and there's so many what we found and we've begun to have conversations about this with the private sector and with um various authorities in in our member jurisdictions but what we found is there's just a complete lack of Um there's a complete lack of consolidated or uniform terminology even for what fraud is. Um there's a complete lack of uh agreement on what pieces of information are important um to be able to detect and mitigate fraud and the all the all jurisdictions and authorities have the same understanding of what they need. Um there questions around when a fraud occurs in one jurisdiction and it's detected in another who who's going to make that consu who's legally liable for that and who makes that consumer home. So there's just so many different issues and I think you know we're we're continuing to kind of consider what is our role in that. Um I think there there are lots of international organizations that are working on this issue as well.

So I think it really remains to be seen where's the right center of gravity to work on that in terms of a crossber issue. Thank you. Thank you. And and we with that we close the the the scripted questions and I want to to ask a final questions to to the panel whoever wants to to answer it. But if you if you want to if you would an hypothetical one on if you need for example to advise uh uh central bank governor a minister of finance that comes very excited after the the the annual meetings on stable coins and all of this in terms of the of the journey that the the country should follow and and what should be the steps and thinking of on on developing economies mainly which is the reality for for the largest part of the population.

What what would be the advice that that you would provide? DPI first, tokenization first. Who wants to take on this one?

He's going to take it.

Okay. I think not not implication of developing world. I think it because that well I think it because that we you know public uh my digital public infrastructure provider actually but actually we should be also competitive. I think it anything cannot be justified because we are public. I mean public should be the more more agile savvy tech savvy.

I think that so in line of that thinking that uh we we should be prepared for AI innovation agentic AI is definitely is going to be rise. So I think because that the good thing is the tokenized money. The thing is is that because of that it can enable microp payment actually uh and also that it can provide a kind of a functionality on each on top of which that agentic AI can utilize something that so so I think there are is a coinbase you know uh Google they are doing a lot of research actually we we have to learn from them actually you know my research lab actually working on with private sector Actually we're developing X 402 probably never heard that one is kind of a protocol that is something that for uh enable microp payment and also they combining with agentic AI actually I think it uh I think it is well we're going to show we're going to showcase on next year that how can is going to be utilized the full agentic AI so so then what I'm saying is is that you know we should be not but even the public side actually should be the and then very you know should be swift to move move that's anyone else that want to to share thoughts on this

I think

well another thing that is more or less uh guide our decision making is also that there is no one size fits all uh uh one of the thing that was really successful even if we deci when we decided to step ahead on pigs and we have a cdbdc initiative that's trying to complement this was I mentioned the my first answer this humility you have to be ramble and have to be adaptable and learn as you go and uh I'll go back to this tracks initiative gdbc one every time we come up with some tough questions uh which is engage the market and we ask them what's their views would you have a picss forum that since the the first discussions about designing the payment system we enjoy the the organiz society the market players participants and all sorts so on and we we we keep doing this when pix has is unexpected out uptake and we said do you need a CBDC for retail payments perhaps not but perhaps we are missing something let's ask the market so we invite and people come up with 49 different use cases and we select 16 of them and said and they ask us which platform do you do you ask do you want us to to use and we said, "Choose your own." And and we have this round of experimentation with 16 different cases from micro finance to tokenizer real assets to enforce programmability and so on. And then uh we said well again but we cannot work on different platforms so let's try together to come up with something more new. So this is ongoing story. I want to emphasize this but I want to emphasize this aspect of having and taking advantage of sorts of vision and knowledge and experience.

You don't know everything. Even if you decide to take a more leading or fostering or catalystic role, you have to be prepared to collaborate and to listen.

Thank you. With that we end the panel and thank you for your insights and [applause] thanks. All right everyone, we now have the last break of the day. So we will come back here at 3:20 sharp for the final panel on quantum. Uh in the meantime, please uh feel free to mill about and grab something to to drink.