Ethereum Bogotá | Cómo L2 ayuda a descongestionar Ethereum con David Mihal [meetup5-sep2020]

[Music] just to share my screen is [Music] um foreign so um [Music] is [Music] um [Music] um is or eye lightning in bitcoin in ethereum the state channels um that's my place um okay it's fine yeah that makes more sense okay the notes embargo uh [Music] does that make sense there is um is [Music] cumulatives the um is capacity um [Music] q a and the the eip 1559 so we could discuss that later i'd love to discuss that um yeah we'll get to that that uh after i guess there you go [Music] um [Music] but i was saying this is like a cutting edge technology and huh that's hard to translate who wants to translate that for cutting edge i wrote van gaal but i don't think that's the one guardian there's no there's no relation to the cutting-edge idiomism but yeah yeah that's what i thought that's why i kind of like crossed it out it's like that's what google says i don't think it's correct um but from this point oh on we are going to switch to english so feel free guys to i see different faces of people that i know that speak to really good english and they are working in the industry so i mean we have i see a raised hand there you go jj go ahead please all right david thank you so much for the presentation that was like excellent excellent content about scalability on l2 um i see you just like cover i guess like most of the like the major like concepts you know like uh state channels and and plasma then later evolved plasma you know was the big word in 2017 when it first came out with from vitalik and joseph kuhn and a lot of people don't know but joseph poon was also the inventor of the lightning network in bitcoin but it's kind of like funny is that now it's the lightning network and then the inventor like just switched to ethereum to come up with plasmid you know but anyway so my question is what do you think about eip 1559 and when do you think the upcoming berlin hard work will happen in terms of upgrading to this next protocol change operate yeah eip1559 is um i guess i'll give a summary for anyone who who doesn't know about it this might be one of the the most exciting changes to ethereum now i'll say this is a layer 1 change so i don't know if it's really going to affect these layer 2 scalability solutions but what eip1559 does is it changes the way that that gas fees are are calculated and it should hopefully reduce the system we have now of right now it's kind of an auction to to get your transaction included and i think that really pushes the price up because if you if you want to send a transaction and you go into meta mask and it says oh it's going to cost 100 way to send your transaction you go well i'm going to do 110 way because i want mine to go in very quickly and then that's going to push push the limit up and up and up so with eip1559 the the protocol itself will basically provide the um the current gas fee and so that should simplify a lot of things um yeah again i'm not a total expert on it but uh the other interesting thing about it is that most of the transaction fee again there's there's kind of two different parts of the transaction fee but the main transaction fee is going to get burned instead of being paid to miners now there are some game theoretical reasons why it has to get burned but but the cool thing for for a theorem and for the price of ethereum is now the the price of ethereum will kind of be tied to the usage of the network if many people are using the network then lots of heat is going to get burned it's going to become more scarce and the price will go up um and what i think some people are hoping is that you know bitcoin has established this narrative of a supply cap that there's only you know 21 million bitcoins that will exist whereas ethereum kind of has this plan of constant and constant inflation but with this eip it's possible that ethereum will have you know this will compensate for that inflation and you'll have either a flat amount of eth or even potentially like negative inflation so so that's exciting um in terms of the berlin hard fork or when eip1559 will actually be included i i don't know um two weeks so that was a lot what did you say sorry yeah uh two weeks you know that's like the mem you know it's always like two weeks away and like you know you never know it's more about milestones more than dates i guess you know whenever it comes to you know those hard work dates you know yeah i had a professor in universe who said these things they're always 80 done always but and one thing i would like to add in terms of what the eip 1559 like means is the way i just described it it's that it's the first price auction mechanism it's like trying to catch a cap right but if that's like the old system you know where you don't know who everybody else is paying so you don't know if that's like the right rate and compared to this like uber mechanism you know like when you get based on like how congested you know the network is in terms of uber drivers and how many people are using the uber you know like stuff you get like searches you know and you get like lower fees you know whenever it's like you know if you arrive at the network at like three in the morning you know like nobody will be using it so that's like getting that signaling you know that's what eip 1559 does it's like the the uber signaling for fees you know that's the way i see it it's like the leap forward between doing this primitive first price auction mechanism that we have right now instead of like more like a market-driven auction mechanism you know yeah that's a great metaphor for for explaining it it's like uber instead of guess i'm imagining like a group of people trying to get a taxi and everybody is like uh like holding like money in their hand to try to get the taxi to come to them first i came up with that analogy whenever i was having a talk with camila russo and we were just like talking about the same issues like a month ago at this panel and i just came up with the analogy of ethereum like new york right now because d5 is where everything is right now it's like the place to be like it's manhattan that's where you have everything and everybody wants to be there so it's like the the the club that everybody wants to attend and there's like bouncers you know in the in the entrance and saying like who can get in and who can get not you know so that's like that's ethereum you know that's like the trendy manhattan you know like famous spot to be right now yeah everyone wants to hang out there and you can see that in terms of like how much has been collected in terms of fees you know on the ethereum blockchain and and it's just like incredible you know like how much usage it's actually how much the free market is willing to pay to use ethereum which i think is a very good signal as well yeah i saw i think it was maybe justin drake one of the core researchers had a tweet today that said you know if um if we had eip one five five nine right now it would have been like like 1.5 million yeah 1.5 million yeah i retweeted that as soon as i saw it because it was like a crazy metric and you know like filecoin it's very interesting i guess to add that filecoin is doing like a test experiment and i think they're doing like eip 1559 on their mainnet and i heard juan bennett uh talking yesterday at coindesk saying that they had been having like really really good results you know like test proving uh doing the burn fee on file coin so that's a very very good like you know signaling as well that everything will i think will be you know good to go that's awesome i also think it's funny that oh sorry no yeah well i i have some questions from the from the chat too so from the same uh dubsta yepski thank you for your question he says that how do you see the future every project or protocol using optimistic roll up or do you think that each protocol is going to be creating their own optimistic roll-up that's a great question um i think in the future it's going to be i think we're not going to see one scaling solution this is i think one one area that i think i kind of diverge from from some of what i see people saying on twitter like if if everybody that has an application on ethereum just takes it and they move it into one optimistic roll-up we haven't really solved anything we haven't made anything more efficient um so i think i think there will be many scaling solutions there will be many optimistic roll-ups uh there will be zk roll-ups there will be side chains there will be plasma there will be everything that that talks about today i think they will all exist because they all have different advantages and disadvantages but as i talked about at the end the important thing is that you can kind of move between them easily um so i think there will be like i think one thing zk robs can be really good at is is exchanges so that we can some of these some of these layer twos will be really good exchanges they'll be like kind of a decentralized coinbase so you can go there if you want to trade you can go to i think optimistic roll-ups will be good for kind of kind of d5 type things kind of financial gaps and i think side chains you know side chains don't have as much security but they're kind of a bit easier i think those are really good for like games or applications that don't need quite the same level of security um but yeah i think people will be able to kind of move in between them um but at the end of the day like really important really important uh contracts they're still going to need to be deployed at layer one um if you have a financial application you need to know that you have like the settlement assurances that your contract is running on the main ethereum chain and that if there's a problem on your layer two you can always go back to that main chain or you can always move to a different layer too so like you know there will i'm sure there will be like uniswap deployed on many different projects but there will still be like uniswap and maker dao and ave and the real like the d5 protocols they're still going to exist on on the main net great and from the same person we have this question can rsk be considered an ethereum competitor or or what are rsk limitations how come they haven't reached an important adoption how come they they haven't tourists yeah yeah um yeah i think they're considered an ethereum um competitor it's an interesting project because it is very the the architecture it's very similar they're using the ethereum virtual machine and solidity and and um lots of the architecture it's very similar to what we have on ethereum but they're doing it on bitcoin um i'm trying to remember i if it's merge mind i think it is like proof of work merge mind with bitcoin which is interesting um and so it's it's mostly decentralized but again they still have a you know kind of somewhat trusted bridge if you want to move bitcoin in and out of it um so i think it's a it's a cool project um but if i had to to kind of pick what i thought would be like a you know more likely solution would probably be um something like tbtc um like a trustless way to put bitcoin on ethereum as opposed to a way to put smart contracts on bitcoin partially just because everything is already on ethereum you know you can you can use if you have bitcoin on ethereum you can use it in d5 you can use it in uniswap you can do whatever you want with it any chain that's kind of starting completely separate from ethereum is just going to have a tough time getting users getting that network and collect yeah totally agree i was going to mention that the network effect on ethereum is so hard and the community you cannot fork community so exactly i i have one question from your presentation we were when you were talking about x die as one of the disadvantages of this type of site change you were mentioning that the censorship could be an issue but what about security i've heard that some people say that x-direct cannot be as secure as mainnet ethereum do you agree with that or just like the this more control that some of the validators have yeah i guess it depends uh security in in which sense so i guess the drawbacks well first i'll say like i love xdi i've been using it a long time and i think right now if you're if you're a developer and you want to be experimenting with smart contracts and and building cool dapps like there's probably no better place than than ex-die at this moment but you know you should still still need to understand the the drawbacks um the consensus mechanism for ex-die is right now it is it started as like proof of authority which basically it was a kind of a permissioned chain um they i think they've they either have already switched or they'll be switching soon to delegated proof of stake um and so forth delegated proof of stake you know it's more decentralized than proof of authority but it has some problems as well um if anybody knows what happened with steam a few months ago that's a really like interesting example of the problem with delegated proof of stake that basically you can kind of buy your way to take over a chain in that case like justin sun from tron like bought the steam chain and um that was interesting so so there are some some issues with delegated proof of stake and then of course the the bridge between the xdi chain and mainnet is is this kind of multi-sig i'm not sure if um the governance system has the ability to like change who is in that multi-cig or not but um still at the end of the day it's like you know there's 15 people that control whether you can move your money in and out of the chain so um yeah i use exile all the time great place to do things but i wouldn't put like a lot of money into it and i think this is why we haven't seen like we've seen a lot of games and dows and things using xdi but we haven't really seen like financial applications moving to xda yet yeah yeah actually we're developing something that's called coinosis and we switch that i mean where our events are not more than i don't know 40 bucks so for that amount it's okay but yeah as you mentioned it's like really cool thing to play with and it's super quite easy to move from one yeah that's it perfect for connoisseurs can we tried it before and uh yeah if you just want to send a dollar don't pay any fee have it go instantly like that's why i use x die so perfect for that awesome i don't know if anyone has any more questions i mean it's almost going to be thursday for david so i don't want him to be too too late for him but please open your mics um i had one uh i had one private question here [Music] this is from um all right i think this is pretty much what we what we just answered yep we already answered that okay um i'm just looking to see if there are any other hey david [Music] david here david how are you man good good to see you good to see you too man why are you planning to come again to colombia when am i playing um well i have to wait till uh until the borders start to open up again i'm just gonna ask you something like you know like i'm i'm not too technical so maybe if you can like share some uh some maybe uh twitter accounts or maybe just like something to start like uh get into the technical part uh because as you know i'm working right now at sea labs and it's been a challenge to try to explain um try to get information uh about like try to put perspective with other people that are really technical yeah and it's been a challenge for me right now yeah i'm a psychologist i'm trying to work on on how to to to to to talk about blockchain in in more like light way yeah equal part is a little bit difficult for me so what are your thoughts on that if you can give some advice or something like that for for how to explain like technical concepts to no maybe some uh twitter accounts so people that are it's like trying to explain maybe youtube channels like in order to get more content more easily to eat too for people yeah pretty cool i mean my go-to is always i'm sure a lot of people have seen them andres antonopoulos have you seen this yeah yeah yeah he's he's great at kind of he can explain every anything and explain why it's uh why it's important so that's the first thing that comes to my mind um vitalik is very good at explaining kind of these these technical concepts in terms of twitter accounts um nothing's coming to mind i know does anyone else have have ideas eth hub i have heard that a lot of people point to the github account so it was a a good place to start also we have a books i mean we have i have i actually have this one here this app is really cool the hat hands on generally also we have uh content made from santiago paladino web developer ethereum for web developers too actually i can send you david it's good to see you here in the call because i i think the people that do this effort to put something on a single piece as a book they have to think on a perennial way so things that are not going to change that fast so i will point people to books mastering also from antonopoulos and gavin wood is a good resource so we have our friend carlos what do you think about mastering ethereum cutlass now that you have the paperback form you're muted so we cannot hear you yeah it goes into really rich depth on on on how slowly the solidity language works uh the only problem is that these things get deprecated like in a week or so like that's that's the only issue we have with programming through programming books on blockchain because every quarter we have like a completely new change of paradigm paradigm i don't know uh pragma or whatever paradigm i guess i think i thought pragma because i was thinking uh solidity there's like a new version of solidity all the time new breaking versions too yeah yeah yeah yeah i haven't gone into i was waiting for some i remember like two or three months ago i was waiting for some open supplement library to be upgraded and bam solid 7 is now out but yeah it's it's it's crazy the the the pace everything is changing but that only means that the technology is getting better we're and we're making new mistakes which is always is always good and i have a lot of faith in the ecosystem and like almost all any other technology on blockchain any other ethereum based blockchain is gonna benefit indirectly directly or indirectly from from these changes so it's uh a a a positive outcome for all the all the uh ecosystem the i guess the the industry we can call it an insta industry now so yeah i think it's big enough yeah it's bigger than a community yeah but does i remember um at the east denver like 2019 when andreas antonopoulos was the speaker and he was like yeah i have this book and it's like it's already outdated it's already changing too fast the good thing about this book is that it's it's on gate so you can actually crack and they're there they keep adding up uh revisions to it which uh i guess i i mean you you you are you're kind of signing a contract uh a moral contract of buying the book uh to and not use the git as well as the book yeah but it's great that you can keep up with the changes and see how how things are being shaped up uh from what you got and and only get that delta of things instead of having to well just search it in the book again and figure out for yourself so that's that's completely a new way of of distributing this documentation which is great yeah definitely so any more questions i had a uh i had a question i had david props for the talk yes great like great spanish and uh i just wanted to like i joined very late i thought you i think you touched on the optimism uh or ovm just wanted to hear your overall thoughts just like as i know like on the mastering theory like i can recommend it as well at least if you want to learn the protocol layer one those chapters are still relevant yeah the only things are the solidity size that but if you want to figure out how the evm works it's still the same at least until it hits e3 for the most part i would say but yeah like yeah i would say i think even the evm will still be somewhat the same right right yeah maybe he was and we'll change some stuff but yeah yeah for sure it's it's it's going to be relevant up to for for years until we see like a big the big jump into e3 but i'm just talking about that like the charge i i think you're probably spot on this on the landscape of the layer too how it's gonna develop like i see it like charts and and you you spoke like d5 is going to be in the layer 2. we're not sure if you're a betting man but where would you bet that's going to land like optimism ovm or something different that's enabling so because the only problem that i see is asking compound and all this big protocols maker to have like thousands of lines of solidity to me to migrate them to a different thing that's not solidity or evm compatible as a that's that's really like a huge and that's why i'm sort of i'm excited about obm but i don't know i want to hear your thoughts on that and i hope it's not a leaning question no no that's that's a great question i think that's a lot of what's still being discussed so i don't think that's um i don't think d5 is going to move to layer two like i think things like maker dao and compound and ave and all these these protocols we're used to they're still going to be on layer one but they'll be usable i guess one way you can kind of think of it um uh because this is one thing that we're working at with fuel because the first version of fuel is not going to have an ovm it's not going to have smart contracts but we still think we can do a lot of what's in defy just even without um without smart contracts so an example is like um say you want to deposit money into compound on layer one you you take your die and you send it to the compound smart contract and then give you back c die but the way that you could do that on a layer two would be that you have die on a layer two and someone else has c die and you just do a atomic swap with that person to have c die instead of die and you basically just you know in effect you've deposited into compound and that person knows the person you've swapped with knows that they can take that dye back to layer one and they can deposit it so i think we'll roughly the way that d5 is going to look with layer 2 is you'll have maybe users especially users that are using kind of smaller amounts of money they'll be using layer 2 to do these things and you know liquidity providers will be taking large amounts of money back to layer one to actually plug things into the protocols um in terms of you know um yeah i said like optimism and you know fuel eventually but a lot all these optimistic roll-up teams will have smart contracts at some point um i think that the smart contracts that are going to be on layer 2 they're going to be more kind of like user interface smart contracts uh if that makes any sense i think we'll see like a bit of a separation between like applications and protocols whereas right now those are kind of one in the same like maker dow it's it's a protocol but for you know for lending and creating dye but it's also like an application you can go to their dap and you can use it um as layer 1 becomes more expensive and layer 2 becomes more accessible i think you're going to see like applications that user facing applications will probably live on layer two and you know these these financial protocols will live on layer one where they really need that trustlessness makes sense yeah totally and um uh for sure and and that's where probably the year c20 with all its downsides comes in handy because that's we have all these tokens that represent something like you said like c die why die or your erc 77 they that i know you you build that's really awesome that those aren't going to be living on layer two probably won't make sense to have a unwrapped die in layer two i would think like you would want your stuffing layer to earn you doing something working your money working for you somehow i don't know but yeah as that's i i agree as well thanks for for the answer sure oh yeah thank you now i'll add that um one thing that i'm i'm working on right now which is it's kind of part of fuel but it's also kind of part of d507 is to be creating more tokens to tokenize things that that don't really exist as tokens now um so an example not not an example that i've made but an example of this type of thing would be um if anyone knows chai um chai is the tokenized version of maker dao's dice to die um dice to build nuts ability fee die savings rate blank on that yeah um that they took you know when you were earning dice savings rate that wasn't something that was tokenized but they just built a token on top of it and once you build a token on top of it then you can really easily move it into a layer two so we're looking into you know can we tokenize yield farming so that you have a yield farming token on layer two can we tokenize you know maker vaults so that you can like do cdps almost on layer two kind of just exploring what things don't exist as tokens today that we can turn into tokens so yeah great question thanks mass mass yeah we're reaching one hour of the talk if you have more questions maybe you can share with us on the chat your twitter account so people can follow you and continue the conversation or social media you the most yeah i'll um my twitter is d-m-i-h-a-l i just posted that that's my twitter and also my telegram so feel free to reach out to me on on either of those platforms you help us hearing bogota okay i hope i hope to be back before devcon but we'll see how the world goes you know you have a nice spanish already maybe yeah must see get better yeah we're talking about david's favorite city medellin or bogota and we were discussing weather is one thing that you have to discover better bogota we can show you that and have fun here too i'm sure i'm in bogota right now for sure for sure actually yeah this is a really good one hans on the later we shared this on the ethereum attack i've been studying using this one awesome everyone oh one more question hello good night uh i had a question for david um maybe davey you can tell us how to deal with a technology that is constantly updating um like solidity maybe you can give us a a good advice for port hammers it's a good question yeah that's that's definitely difficult part of the space this thing's always changing um i mean sometimes you just need to in terms of like solidity sometimes you just need to pick a version and stick with it you know if you start building a project with solidity five um you know you need to kind of weigh the benefits how much time would it take to to upgrade to a newer version how much to to stick with the one that you have um but uh yeah i guess yes some said hackathons yeah or just kind of trying new you know kind of side projects and trying to experiment with with different things um yeah it's really hard to to keep up with everything um i don't know if i have a better answer than just just experiment okay okay yeah but definitely like checking on git coin there's a lot of activity over there for example we have martin from the graph so when one time he told me hey you should try to hack something that we're doing on the graph and you can learn our technology so i will also add that to the question when they go that hackathons and having and i guess gatecoin is starting to be the place where the organizers are putting the rewards for people to get involved so bitcoin is definitely uh and they have a section just for hackathons so it definitely is a way also to keep up with the continuous uh innovation and new technologies that we have yeah and also there's a um there's another eth global hackathon starting in a few weeks uh ethonline i think it's what it's called and i think signups go for like one more week so yeah if you have some ideas something to hack on um you can sign up for that and i know that they have a bunch of sponsored uh sponsored prizes for that as well yep definitely and also this is this is something that we are working on through with the community of of bogota and some people around colombia that we're creating a course in spanish with the road map to defcon so be aware of the social media accounts of our friends of petrium caribou uh because we're leading this this is part of the mission we're pursuing like creating high quality content thank you david for your time for preparing the presentation and also to have this like i i know english uh could be a lay an extra layer of complexity an obstacle for some people but soon we're going to be announcing a course in spanish as an introduction to the to this world that we are always passionate to learn more so yeah i don't want to stand more than the hour that we plan actually we're one hour and almost 20 minutes thank you for your time david um we are going to post this on our youtube channel and thank you all of you for being part of this talk david um see you all at devcon for sure we were more than happy to have you here ciao later you can send me the record of the of the session yeah just to stop maybe