The State of Distressed Crypto Assets: Experts Insights and Outlook - TOKEN2049 Singapore 2023

all right um great to be here uh it's been a fantastic conference so far notwithstanding the summit depressing topic uh we have a lot of exciting things to share with you and I think we'll kick things off with some introductions we're going to start with King who's inadvertently omitted at this outset so thanks Melissa uh great to be here um I'm King I'm a special advisor crypto to a tester we're an 8 billion dollar london-based hedge fund uh focus on distress assets and we're a very active participant in the crypto distress space buying claims I've been in distress for most of my career at Goldman for a number of funds and also a web 3 entrepreneur hi all I'm uh Asher co-founder of U.S Bitcoin Corps we're a large North american-based Mining Company I'm actually an entrepreneur by trade and recently fell into the distress World in Q4 of last year have been involved in a couple bankruptcies whether it be as a bidder of assets serving on the UCC committee or most recently with the Celsius bankruptcy we're a part of the fahrenheit group and put that group together to acquire the Celsius assets out of bankruptcy and turn it into a new company awesome um Michael um also more commonly known as wassey lawyer I absolutely am not a co-founder at an ovary I have a lot of you know questions answered if there was the case I'm a consultant I don't know very previously I was a lawyer specializing in restructuring insolvency uh probably became quite well known because I started tweeting about how it's obviously works at the crypto Arena great thanks Melissa Bender I'm a partner at ropes and gray based in our San Francisco office I mean the asset management group and I also lead our crypto and blockchain practice so just to kick things off I think um may be good just to do sort of a quick refresher sort of one year out on why we're here right a year and a half out sort of Reflections on Terra Luna Voyager Celsius FTX you know observation sort of a year out king can I start things off with you sure I'll kick it off so I think a couple of um elements made this kind of unique in the last one a half years one is uh everything was sort of connected we're seeing now and there's a couple examples of that two is a ton of Leverage across the ecosystem three is Bad actors ranging from Bad risk management to outright fraud and that led to a spiral starting really with a big drop in the markets precipitated by Terra Luna obviously through AC folding Voyager and Celsius having to file FTX filing later down the line with rod and then ultimate Genesis filing earlier this year so that's sort of the the context of how it all got started yeah and Asher any perspective sort of from your persp you know to terms of how we ended up here right sort of the uh weaknesses and issues in the market that you see yeah I would Echo everything he said and just add kind of the interconnectivity of all these companies and The Leverage in the space so kind of as dominoes fell it created more pressure on the system on other companies that basically caused more companies to fall into a distressed state that ended up bringing them to insolvency or something of that nature yep and YC lawyer I know yeah I mean to add on to that I think there's also the sort of like complete destruction of retail confidence in the crypto infrastructure because I've been saying that you know if we didn't have terra Luna and Celsius and Voyager you probably wouldn't have seen that bank run that you saw on FTX which obviously you know made it worse and worse so yeah it's a combination of Leverage the system I think people didn't really realize how interconnected everything was and this is a product of the zero interest rate environment where everyone's printing money I mean we were actually in this position where you know you would have people in the space say that 20 is my risk-free rate which is slightly insane right because they just stick it into anchor and then you went essentially overnight from 20 of the risk-free rate to well you know Bitcoin is worth one third of the price it used to be yeah yeah and so you know talking a little bit about kind of the immediate Fallout right I think probably FTX being like the cataclysmic right the cataclysmic event after many many um uh challenging events for the crypto and blockchain Industry you know what were you seeing in your you know particular Industries in your work I mean one thing that's great about this panel is we have folks who have really different perspectives and have been in different parts of the ecosystem you know what was the immediate Fallout that you were dealing with bossy lawyer let's start with you uh sorry immediate thought from them the immediate Fallout from FTX like what was you know how how did your day-to-day work like literally you know how is it transformed yams on a daily basis by very pissed off people um some of whom were asking for Sam bagman for each lawyer for some reason some people had an idea um Sam Actually DMS me something in January was out of bail um that's that's a story for a lot of time but yeah I think it's kind of insane I think people I think I think the difficult part was that I think FTX came at a time when people thought the industry was recovering because you had you know you had all these like wave of collapses where you had um you know your Terra Luna followed by Tracy and then Voyager itself is obviously linked to that collapse and and what happened was this sort of slightly quiet period where uh FTX and SPF were going around saying you know we're gonna try and bail out the industry we're going to try and start acquiring uh companies and then all of a sudden um pretty much over the course of a weekend um the news about the balance sheet comes out and the sort of I think it's a sort of fear where people really didn't have any trust anymore because I know people now sort of equate FTX a fraud but if you look back you know two years when everyone thinks about FTX they think of them as the regulatory compliant guy they think of Sam as almost being a you know he's a defender of of crypto I mean sure his his I think it was a bit unpopular for pushing slightly monopolistic uh D5 policies in Washington but before the people thought of him as sort of a crusader for crypto and then so over the course of a week or two and a lot of my friends were very experienced Traders were very were sort of caught off guard because even the FTX Senior Management you know not all the way up to Sam's Circle but the senior guys had no idea something else is going on so yeah I think it's a complete destruction of confidence over time yeah and you know specifically thinking about it in the context of um bankruptcy right these bankruptcies and the opportunities that come out of the bankruptcies right you know sort of um uh Asher you can talk to us more about your deal a little bit later on but you know sort of in the immediate aftermath what were some of the observations that you had around the market and the opportunities to be bidding on these assets or potentially buying these assets Asher you want to take that sure I think uh in mining specifically you have to be a low-cost producer and so usually people raise capital and build in a bowl cycle and everything's expensive and everyone's scared to deploy large amounts of capex when things are cheap and so I think on our side is having the conviction in the industry long term to be willing to deploy Capital when no one else is and looking at opportunities to create value not just for ourselves but for the overall situation and so you had mentioned Celsius which we're spending a lot of time on to emerge those illiquid assets out of bankruptcy and the goal is how can we drive the most value towards that estate and create win-win scenario as an operator so I think we're approaching a lot of these opportunities from the perspective of there is an asset that if liquidated would be very value destructive because there's not an inherent buyer with capital in the market today and so as an operator how do we come in and drive Equity value of these assets to kind of ride through the current winter that we were in today and so whether it be in Celsius or some of the other bankruptcies we've been a part of is how can we make sure that these assets survive and there's the industry continues to have a base that continues to be able to build from rather than just liquidating anything and taking it for salvage value and king from your perspective yeah so we're as a fun buyer of claims we buy liabilities as opposed to the assets um the previous situation we looked at Celsius for Euro block five we're all a bit smaller they were called between two four five billion and the Very dispersed so the claims that were up for sale were all quite small with FTX everything changed because it was more like a 15 billion dollar balance sheet and very large claim holders so we in the aftermath we started out immediately um trying to figure out what's happening obviously on the balance sheets trying to make some sort of assessment of recovery which is very early and kind of difficult and also try to buy claims um and we did both and obviously um at that point in time there was no claims portal pretty much what you were buying was a screenshots from someone plus some kyc plus some wallet tracing we could do um and uh and from there I think it's developed a lot actually both to thinking on the Alice on the balance sheet with more information coming out but also on the way the claims with the trading and the other thing is obviously from a legal side documentation on the assignment agreement what do you need the document to say because buying claims literally just a contract it's not security something else so probably that so I think right I think one of the really interesting aspects of all of this is that you know we had um you know what were in theory very classic bankruptcy events right and businesses that had failed right but within an industry that was really new and evolving right and very different from any historic bankruptcy that we've seen right and so I think one of the challenges was that we there are lots of folks who are familiar with buying distressed assets or buying Equity out of bankruptcy right but didn't understand crypto and weren't going to with a 10-foot Pole right in the context of what was going on right and then likewise we had massive liquidity crunch rate particularly with FDX going down right where you know who's actually going to be buying these assets and how is that going to work and then I think also too we have this highly um you know basically there's a sort of more of a retail base where you have many of these very very tiny claims right that are out in the market as opposed to Big sort of chunky claims that you might otherwise see so um I'm just curious From mural's perspective you know what else what else is different or differentiated right around those bankruptcies relative to your historic experience right with a more traditional bankruptcy I'll see you later I'll start with you I think there are a lot of difficult you know questions relating to digital assets which haven't been properly resolved yet I mean it's something that you hear about all the time right going how do I value my claims I've got a claim for one Bitcoin and when FTX went down for instance Bitcoin was 0.6 17K um now Bitcoins rebounded a little bit I want to claim for the larger amount why should I be liquidated have my claim liquidated at a point of time so that's certainly one one big question is that's sort of relevant across all of these bankruptcies really sort of seeing this come up a few times now um I think another big one um which people aren't I think people aren't thinking about as much because we don't really want to think about it is if we actually went and pursue looked at the terms and conditions and pursue this English trust claim which would really really really make things very difficult for the bankruptcy state that's also the issue of thinking collateral over crypto assets I think you sort of see this in a few of these Landing Arrangements how do you properly take collateral crypto asset you know is it like a title based you know a transfer or do you have some sort of charge over it and most of the time the guys who are you know taking these loans in that sort of environment when thinking about these things most of them were lawyered up so they just I just transferred some crypto or I would just patches on crypto but what actually is your your legal position so so those are some quite I think interesting issues which haven't been determined conclusively or determined very well yet and um and that's why I've almost always been pushing that people should just do a you know restructuring of some of these things because you don't want to go to court for the next 10 years and then spend money trying to figure out unwind all of these all these Arrangements I think for uh the expenses that we've had so our investor base is pretty traditional in terms of their background PE shops family offices and such and we got connected to a lot of folks in the distressed world and when we first got connected to it I think Celsius was one of the first large bankruptcies in our space and there was a lot of uncomfort about even spending time on that bankruptcy and I think FTX has changed because people have seen and gotten more comfortable with the opportunities within some of these and you have a lot more folks kind of getting involved now and so I think number one to your point when we were involved we learned by drinking out of a fire hose and getting a lot of advice and mentorship but there were there are folks who've been in the space for decades that only focus on distress and they weren't really around because I don't think they had an underlying thesis on crypto itself and how they wanted to kind of invest in the space I think that's the first kind of point because most of the debtors plans in these chapter 11s is how do we go and sell these assets or sell these businesses and they go through a process and they realize No One's Gonna Come and buy the whole thing right and I think that's happened throughout the course of uh almost all these bankruptcies so I think the first is who's around the table and they have to understand kind of the stress space they have to understand the processes and bankruptcies because a lot of it is process oriented um and or of attrition oriented and then the third is kind of have a thesis on crypto and what what to do with the underlying assets so I think that's one obviously in scenarios where it's just kind of liquid crypto Bitcoin eth becomes a lot easier the second I would say is at least in celsius's case is the amount of creditors that are non-institutional and how that impacts basically the process of understanding what the creditor's appetite is for what they want to happen with the asset bases and where there's no kind of seeing their lenders in the Celsius situation the UCC is really the owner of the business right you post kind of bankruptcy and what do they want and there's this world of where I think a lot of the lawyers that are involved have been in bankruptcy forever and it's the first time that they're actively engaged in Twitter trying to understand the audience face in the community and Twitter and I think everyone's kind of adapting to who is the ultimate kind of customer and how do we make sure that we hear their needs and their desires and kind of reflect that in how we're operating kind of the bankruptcy boasts from the debtor side and also the UCC side and then there's also the nuances of the actual asset based taxes was a big thing is how do we actually distribute these assets and what is a tax impact to the actual creditor that may be receiving some of the assets that get distributed back and would they rather have it in crypto or Fiat and the nuances of basically tax treatment in all these scenarios so I think there's a lot of learning that's happened through kind of these initial bankruptcies and you have some that have gone well others that haven't and I think the culmination of all this is like FTX where you have the sophistication there now you have a lot of the learnings of what's happening in these other bankruptcies and you have the biggest asset base to actually create structures of kind of just liquidating giving it back to creditors turning them into new businesses so on and so forth I'm so excited to see kind of what happens with that estate and kind of how they distribute them and maximize value through the process yeah and I think it's worth just you know spending a little bit more time on sort of the the retail client base right in and because it's totally different right from most other bankruptcies right I mean it's basically like a bank going under right but that does not happen typically um and so um I know King You've that's something that you've sort of been dealing with firsthand right in terms of actually buying the claims right given that they're held by so many uh different individual people and in many cases many tiny amounts so what's been the impact on that front for you yeah there's two ways definitely the point is that you're making are correct right you you could suddenly go to an sdx case you know a million plus creditors and the way the Dynamics work you don't have a UCC which represents all creditors which is essentially without any experience of the stress investment and a normal restructure in chapter 11 you have a few bangs a few hedge funds and a few Learners and it sort of all works out people know to how it's done so that's that's all new and um I find the other thing that's interesting there is that it is uh often very emotional uh right people people have very strong emotions versus each other versus the sort of Nemesis in these kind of situations um to that point to a lot of these folks it's their net worth right so many of them trusted these systems and said it's safe for the bank whatever it may be and they put a lot of their net worth in some cases the majority of it on these platforms so it's kind of a massive impact on their personal lives where for an institution at the end of the day they have a risk management portfolio they have Diversified Investments and I think that's exactly right I mean we spent a ton of time I mean our UCC is none of no one's institutional and it's really understanding the impact it's had on them and the rest of the community and how to try to do the best and try to kind of take a bad situation and try to make the mess out of it but definitely agree with kind of the personal emotional aspect of it um due to kind of the assets that were put at on the platforms yeah and then also conceptual you have very Opposite Worlds and thinkers so crypto um group of people are obviously very bullish to the Moon Etc which is which is part of the industry which all part of them which we love and the stress is the opposite it's credit it's focused on the downside and it's very conservative so you think about if you have two two creators one is a crypto creator that lends or puts uh say Bitcoin on the platform uh and then you have a dollar credit on your side right so the moment that the company filed uh Bitcoin was at say 17 18 000 and now it's at 26. so from a perspective of like the cryptocurator well my my asset I have it may be worth less but it's up almost 50 percent but it's not how it actually work as you know it's dollarized as petition date so that was very sort of a big shock to yeah like hey what my my ass is up a lot I'm actually making back what I'm losing on the electricity no it doesn't work that way that leads to very um fundamental discussions in many cases I would say the other big thing on an fcx's preference risk right clawback risk so clearly there was a lot of fud the weekend before FX filed about 5 billion was withdrawn from the platform and as we all know uh that's at higher risk of of clawback um and that's also a big thing people had to get used to um so so yeah all those things I play in fact matter is when we um when we buy claims typically it's from larger players um because it's more size so there's there's more professionalism there but you still have the different mindsets in there yeah and so how do you I'm just curious how do you go about differentiating right between you know at what point of time do you decide the claim is big enough and it's worth dealing with your counterparty and you know you can more readily run all the checks on your counterparties right I mean has that become more um seamless or you know is there less friction now in the system or yeah so maybe take a step back right if you think about I've always been in the stress space so if you think of high yield balls that go go stressed it's a very efficient market because five big Brokers maybe another five to ten smaller ones and you can sort of you know where liquidity is there's a market you get your Bloomberg runs then you go one level down you go to claims the big Brokers don't don't do that so it's more the smaller Brokers some individual sort of people that trade them and it's either there's no Market or it's very wide bid asks and then there's Crystal claims so there was no markets a year ago um and even now it's very very patchy so um the way to do it is very much direct direct sourcing or direct sourcers and a little a little bit through desks um and and for us the moment you have a bit of size and you sort of have done your documents right and you know how the process works then you can go down in inside so you smart you start small because you start somewhere then ideally you buy bigger and then you go small again because it's possible you have the infrastructure to do that yeah um so Asher so you've been your your hard at work right um working on the Celsius transaction could you share a little about that with us sure uh so we ex like looked at the Celsius bankruptcy end of last year and kind of Q4 time frame and at the time as a Bitcoin miner we said okay what are the Bitcoin mining assets and can we make a bid for those assets and purchase them and at the time kind of the debtors and the professionals said we actually want to sell the whole company I was like okay well we don't want to buy any assets out of money mining is our Core Business uh probably not the right opportunity for us now and then we uh kind of stayed engaged and going into end of q1 there was an alternative but I came in got a stalking horse and the concept behind it was the company has a lot of liquid crypto assets so how do we distribute the majority of those back to creditors but there's also a lot of a liquid assets that were made so there was a ton of capital put into a mining Division and the reality is if you're going to liquidate the mining assets today you're getting five six hundred dollars a machine where the equity value of like the publicly traded companies that are trading are in the thousands right and so there's massive kind of Destruction there if you just try to viral say on liquid in there not might not even be the actual liquidity in those markets to actually take on that cell pressure so I think one was there second there was a big asset base in Investments that were made by Celsius that are a liquid and so the way that the current professionals have kind of segmented the assets there's about uh half a billion of the liquid assets that were made whether it be loans Investments and and such um they're valued in the mining business at about five over 500 million dollars as well and so the idea is how do we take this billion dollars or so of assets and instead of going liquidate and get X cents on the dollar how do we go and try to build equity value from that base um and so in our current plan we went through a long uh bankruptcy process brought in four other principles formed a Consortium called Fahrenheit so Arrington Capital uh Steve kokinos who's the former CEO of algorand I know Joseph who runs proof group and then Robbie cazo more of a hedge fund background so we found a diverse set of individuals that said okay how do we take this asset base and potentially go and build a kind of V2 crypto company that can have the right governance in place the right poll is just in place and kind of from day one the shares are held by the people it's a very decentralized shareholder business all the creditors um and be able to kind of build a company the right way with the right processes at the end of the day when you look at a lot of these bankruptcies a lot of it was driven by management as well right there's macro market conditions and there's also decisions that were made by managements not that strong of a governance structure in place because it was fast-growing startup companies with a lot of capital that they were managing so we're currently in the process um of basically having creditors vote for do they like that plan which is we take the liquid assets we capitalize it with additional ethereum and in bankruptcy was really interesting you can actually there's a exemption called the library 45 exemption where you can actually take a company out of bankruptcy without a registration statement there's an exemption to that registration statement it automatically have it be a public listed Equity with the scale of that shareholder base and kind of uh the amount of shareholders creditors that will become shareholders it's not really feasible to have that as a private company post-emergence and So currently in the process working with the NASDAQ but the goal is to take the company out of bankruptcy and list it on the NASDAQ as a publicly traded company with a strong kind of core in mining to start because that's where a lot of the operational assets are today but continue to grow as a generalized crypto company yeah super interesting and wasiler would you comment on you know some of the other these other bankruptcies and so where they are in the process and you know what the time Horizon might look like or we're not I mean there's a few I've been looking at in in some details looking at uh three arrows a lot if you're looking at FTX a lot as well and with three arrows it's actually the more interesting one because oh it's quite interesting because it's meant to be quite simple given the fact you've got about 100 creditors in there it's a liquidation it's a little talk of a structure in the company but the progress on it is actually surprisingly slow because uh one thing you see with all of these bankruptcies really is this sort of mismatching experience between the the you know the sort of crypto guys and the professionals so the guys that understand bankruptcy generally don't understand crypto very well and the guys that understand crypto don't understand bankruptcy if you will and to add to make things worse they don't trust each other at all like like uh sort of quickly revising the point of our retail you've got a lot of these UCC guys so sort of retail investors who understand crypto very crypto native guys and like King said their priorities are completely misaligned from the distress that guys because they come in from a crypto Equity result Equity driven perspective going this is my token I want like they would rather take what assets left and sort of go bet the house on you know black and then sort of double it up rather than sort of think about accepting the sort of throttle right um so there is a lot of sort of mistrust generally so sort of seeing this uh you know both firsthand also sort of on the news wires and so on where you have got and also on Twitter obviously where you've got people volunteering to help sort of professionals try to come in like crypto fresh coming to come in and be like this is how you manage his assets and everyone sort of the estate kind of thinks that crypto guys try to lowball them the crypto guys think that the estate and the professionals are trying to burn fees off the estate so I think that there is certainly a just general understanding Gap and also a lack of trust across the board so okay so 3ac it's a liquidation no idea how long it's going to take uh you're a very good friend of material advice and start going through the process um and yeah it's not it's not been easy um and then on the FTX side I also speak to some of the stakeholders involved you know some of the members of UCC informally sort of speak with me um and the issue with FTX is I think uh yeah exactly there's a mismatch of expectations um there's been a lot of talk I mean what you know you guys are doing in Celsius sort of building a V2 of the company or anyone on Twitter space and those everyone keeps saying I want to do FTX 2.0 you want to reboot FTX but that's just a very big idea how do you actually do it how do you actually slice the economics there's not going to be someone that comes in and does the whole thing for you for free and gives you all of the upside someone's gonna have to come in someone's gonna have to run the company someone's gonna have to put in the governance that wasn't there before and that's something that people don't quite get all the time but and but even then on the other end some of the institutional guys just don't really understand what makes this retail guys tick you know um you know that's why you not only sort of talk of any sort of token any sort of upside recovery it's actually way more attractive to them than saying I'll give you 60 cents on a dollar because when you start offering them for instance you know 35 40 cents on a dollar they're gonna say why you offering me 35 40 cents on a dollar are you trying to cheat me if my claim you know what are you trying to get out of this um so uh it's it's a difficult scenario I think FTA is going to take a little while more given how the estate is put together I think three AC is going to take quite a long time because all the various litigation claims and how um you know I was incestuous everything is where you've got all these big lenders you know lending to to Crazy being credited but also having preference claims again a a clawbacks against them so yeah I mean I don't can't commit your time but probably a couple of years unless they work something out yeah and just picking up on a comment that you made just now right in terms of how um incestuous and how insular right the industry was which really um uh was a a terrible Factor right and you know really was part of the cause of the whole domino effect you know as people are looking to rebuild within the industry right are you seeing sort of Lessons Learned on on that side right where people are rebuilding in a more Diversified kind of a way I mean I think um yeah well anyway I can get off yeah one thing is interesting obviously the whole thing about blockchain crypto is it's trustless but these things all show that there was a huge amount of trust with mass exposures to one another because you know after sex is never going to fail or three AC is never going to fail or Jensen and clear that all that all fell apart and I think um as you say the ninja needs to rebuild ultimately a lot of this lending was the clear was undercollateralized or sometimes even without out any collateral so counterparty risk collateral doesn't have to be over collateralized like in D5 but surely different different collaterals actual margin calls I think that's changing a more Diversified base for sure and hopefully as was pointing to you know best practices uh and and check some balance in place right corporate governance etc etc um I'm going to talk with regulation on this panel but it's obviously another thing that management impact so I think overall um in that sense we're actually very positive about the industry these this is a painful episode in that sense but also it it washes out it's only Bad actors it cleans up bad practices it also gives New Capital to the industry uh of things changing hands and and we can hopefully move forward from that not sure yeah and I would say I agree with that wholeheartedly and I think the amazing thing about crypto and D fire the new technologies and applications that have been built but at the end of the day I think if there are people still make a decision running it strong corporate governance and checks and balances are critical and I think if you look at 2021 I mean I'll call it fomo but there was so much basically excitement on the industry of this is revolutionary this is going to change and a lot of traditional investors kind of ignored all the lessons they've learned through the financial markets over the course of history and I think now you you're going to see a world in Celsius they just announced the board but you're going to see a world where you want to keep on driving Innovation keep on driving growth but at the same time take lessons of learn not just in crypto but throughout kind of history of the financial markets and apply those checks and balances apply those knowledge so on the Celsius board there's a lot of folks in their background is more on the traditional Finance world in the stress world and bringing that governance in as well meanwhile having kind of the executives that want to drive growth and love the sector and believe in longevity of the sector and basically finding the harmony between old and you yeah I think so it's just to I mean just to add on to that right it certainly is the case that I think it's very easy to sit here in hindsight and say look everyone in 2021 was mentally ill probably are but um the fact is that back then if you wanted to spend some time doing due diligence on anything whatsoever there's no deal right yeah so you either transfer fifty hundred thousand or even a million US dollar coins into this random wallet address or I'm gonna get the next guy who's gonna send it to me and that next guy is going to make a 5x on his investment in next month and you're gonna be sitting there being poor so that that's kind of the the landscape the 2021 2022 was and if you if anyone sort of said anything about confidence and then there were no people who were saying stuff about Luna and on Tara and their governance and whether or not actually worked and you just get shouted down because you had too many retail investors in it and they're all batting their lives and their life savings on it and then obviously when everything collapses then all these retail investors now become very very upset retail participants they have to deal with in sort of any you know sort of bankruptcy scenario so going forward I mean currently in the sort of macro environment we're in where you know Capital isn't cheap anymore you certainly will be seeing a lot more people you know certainly it's going to be due diligence done now people are going to care that you actually have things properly set up before just transferring coins into a wallet address but but the crypto guys who always want to find the you know fastest growing growing protocol right and most of like the fastest growing project is one with very loose corporate governance and people almost like rallying around one or two of those people and if you look at the last cycle as a sort of example um I actually once asked a friend I said one of the smartest guys I know I said how does Luda and Tara work he told me it doesn't I was like why do people use it oh because they think three arrow is going to backstop it are you going to bet against three arrows and now a lot of people sort of like mock the founders of three arrows the factors of 2021 2022 everyone was lining up to get money from them you know they were seen as they've seen as these guys that couldn't fail everything to touch turned to Gold so in hindsight you look at it and you go oh Voyager maybe shouldn't have so much the loan book was although 40 of the loan book to three arrows but back then it looks saying this was probably this the safest loan on their on their on their balance sheet you know if you went back two years yeah all right great well we have just one minute left I think just as a wrap up I guess looking ahead what are um what are are there what is the next distressed opportunity experience it seems in terms of all those interconnectivity that seems to have run this course hopefully for the industry and um you never know about idiosyncratic events right but I think Whenever there is flood around which there's from time to time it seems to subside these days so it's also with more stability in the industry which is good I think in general I think from our side on mining specifically going to the having there will be uh more more times as well uh to kind of go through it and I think on our side it's how do we just continue to kind of roll up our slaves and more put in Sweat Equity uh to kind of build value and I think these periods of times are the best time to build uh and not when there's so much hype in the markets and everyone's trying to build at the same time so I think for people who believe in the industry start building now and start building if you have the long-term conviction and whatever project or sector you're working on in the industry yeah I think that's absolutely right I think this is the right time to build I do know that some Founders that get a bit discouraged because a lot of these Founders are very young and they get used to you know they call it crypto in 2020 and I just raised eight million dollars of a pitch deck that I put together in 24 hours and now you try to go to the market and raise any money you're not raising that more money anymore not to solve valuation anymore I think there's still a lot of zombie companies sort of going around they are the size of those have collapsed you know maybe the sort of venture-backed startups that have raised you know 10 20 30 million dollars in the bull market and they've never found product Market fit so they're just sort of slowly you know zombie companies sort of burning through the treasuries issuing tokens doing all sorts of strange um so I don't know if that's a distress opportunity specifically and actually I've seen one I've seen one like this sorry I think I'm running over time but I've seen a few like this where you've got zombie companies and you've got an opportunity for funds of strong operational teams come in take over the treasury and build something good with those funds rather than having a you know 19 year old no experience pay himself 200 000 a month you know yeah I think that's a great note to end on so thanks all right it's a great opportunity King you should look into it