So… What Are You Exactly? Regulating the Evolving Market Structure | DC Fintech Week 2025

The financial regulation has been a bit more straightforward. Um, it flows through a regulated intermediary, a bank, a broker, an exchange. Of course, this intermediary is the point of control, point of oversight, point of security. But today as we all know we have decentralized exchanges, decentralized uh assets, smart contracts, AI, new technologies that are redefining and removing the human intermediary. So we're going to talk about um how regulators oversee such a market in light of these technologies uh and how the market participants can build the complian system for the future.

U I have an absolute expert group of panelists uh next to me. So I'm going to briefly introduce each person before we dive right into it. Of course, right next to me, we have SC Commissioner Hester Pur, who also leads SC crypto task force. We're also joined by Chair Reena Ross from the European Securities and Markets Authority. Uh Margaret Tyer, uh partner at Davis Poke and the Financial Institutions Group, and Christine Moy, partner and head of digital assets, data AI strategy at Apollo Global Management.

Let's please uh welcome our panelists very briefly. [applause] Uh Margaret would love to start with you if you don't mind. Sort of set the big picture before we get into more specifics. Um as I mentioned, financial regulation typically relies on regulated intermediaries, but given the rise of DeFi protocols, blockchain, AI, um how do you see the concept of intermediary changing? And what does that mean for traditional regulatory oversight?

Sure. And call me Meg because the only person who calls me Margaret is my husband when he's mad at me.

Okay, Meg. Um so this this is a fundamental shift right because financial regulation has been find the intermediary make the inter intermediary do things either to the user consumer um or uh in the marketplace rely on the intermediary for market protection market integrity BSA AML and consumer protection and now all of a sudden and I'm going to be staying really big picture here and I know we'll delve into the details later. We're we're not only we're not only having a problem finding the intermediary, we don't know what the intermediary is or what the intermediary looks like. And so you can see from the range of solutions in the various legislative drafts and proposals and leaked ideas that we have out there that this kind of uh this kind of game of what isn't an intermediary and find the intermediary is in full swing. with lots of good ideas, bad ideas and uh medium ideas floating out there.

Um so you have uh you know you have the the leaked democratic draft which um you know comes in very strong with this concept of the intermediary needs to kind of look act and feel like a traditional intermediary and then you have the various ways of that clarity and RFIA are dealing with it. Um, and I promise you I'm not going to lead you through the complex provisions. People have said here, none of us understand this act and none of us have fully uh gotten to it. And I think that's because there's so many versions going around and we don't even have the ad committee yet. But let me just [snorts] close by saying that we have to kind of get rid of what I'll call old think.

If we keep trying to put where we're going into old boxes, we aren't going to get to where we're going. So the the solution here is I think twofold. One is to figure out the problem we're trying to solve and then to solve it only loosely. One of the I think the good things about the Clarity Act and the RFIA is they give the SEC a lot of exemptive power. Now, the SEC has ex a lot of exemptive power now, but there's no way, and those of you who have been around here today with all the tech and all the changes, there's no way we can solve this one.

There's no way we're going to come up with perfect legislation. So, coming up with a loose framework and then giving the SEC as much exemptive authority as possible so that they can make adjustments in two, three, five, seven years makes a lot of sense. I mean, last thing I'll say, the 75 million, for example, bucket that's in um the draft gives the SEC the authority to change that over time. And we've already seen how thresholds in other areas can become legislative cement. So, we we need to have that mentality.

Let's not have legislative cement. Let's have uh a flexible system.

Um well, the SEC was brought up, so I have to turn to you, Commissioner Pur, very briefly. um would love your thoughts just more on the challenges and opportunities you're seeing especially as uh the intermediary role is changing in crypto and AR driven markets.

Well, thanks and thanks for the chance to be here. I Richard Gabbert who is the the head of the crypto task force um was supposed to be here and I would have liked to have you hear from him um because he's really thoughtful and he's been working very hard. a lot of the good work that you've seen coming out of the the crypto task force um has been uh shephered by him. So um but because of the government shutdown um I'm the only one who's allowed to work. So here I am.

[laughter] Um so in any event I do have to give my disclaimer which is that my views are my own views as a commissioner not necessarily those of the SEC or my fellow commissioners. I mean I think that we are seeing um a lot of interesting things happening. One of them is the possibility that intermediaries will will be removed. And I think that's that's a particularly interesting regulatory challenge. Um, I'm excited by it because I think some of the the problems that we've all seen so frequently in the financial industry are problems that do stem from the fact that you have intermediaries that sometimes have conflicts of interest, sometimes are outright um, you know, stealing from their clients.

Um, sometimes are careless and um, sometimes don't offer services to a group of people that they don't want to offer services to but do to another. And so you can eliminate some of that by having peer-to-peer transactions. Um, and I think that's really that's really positive. And I think we need to regulate and and legislate and regulate in a way that recognizes the value to the American citizen of having access to the the these peer-to-peer technologies, having the ability to have uh truly self-custody, having the ability to interact with others. um that that will require us to do some thinking, but I think it's it's something we have to protect.

But we're seeing a lot of the the um innovation ideas coming from traditional and cryptonative uh intermediaries. And so that I think is um is an area where we're doing a lot of work tokenizing um assets like securities. Um that's something that we're thinking a lot about. Um and then also trying to figure out how the the intermediaries that we regulate, broker dealers, investment advisors can um custody assets can help their clients get exposure to different assets. We're spending a lot of time also on um investment management products that have incorporated crypto assets.

So I think each of those poses its own set of challenges um that we're working through but um it will be helpful um as to see where the legislation goes obviously but we can do a lot even in the absence of the legislation. We're working on on regulation and guidance. Um some of some of the guidance you've seen already but we're we're continuing to work on those issues.

If we could just stay with you for one more minute. Um, and you actually um stole my question, so this perfect segue, but the question is part selfish because I was going to ask you uh we've obviously seen so much progress from this SEC, from the crypto task force. Thank you. Uh, commissioner, uh, what are other, uh, rules or guidance or areas of focus when it comes to crypto asset transactions that you're focused on?

Well, I think we are looking at um, custody issues on on again investment advisor, broker dealer side of things. So those there are some challenges there. Um we're looking at issues around transfer agents um and around um you know when do you have to register as a clearing agency those kinds of things. Um and then in the tokenization side we're trying to there's been a lot of talk about tokenization. Some efforts to tokenize different people are trying different things.

So part of what we need to do is make sure that people issuing tokenized assets are telling people what they're actually issuing. so that people actually understand what they're getting access to. And so I think there'll be an effort um to work on some exemptions to allow people to tokenize, but making sure that those exemptions are properly conditioned. And then of course the age-old question of when is something a security or not a security. That's an area where we're working on um guidance and and then rulemaking around how can you do a token issuance um and and what does that look like?

what are the what are the what's the information that needs to accompany that. Um so those are some of the things that we're working on but there are many many different work streams.

Uh chair Ross moving over to you. Um from the European perspective of course Mika provides a comprehensive framework for markets. Um how do you see AI and blockchain together testing the boundaries of existing EU market structures and supervision? Thanks and first of all also from my side many thanks for having me here in this uh all female American uh panel. Um no it's great to be here and uh we in Europe obviously started having a ma market in crypto assets framework already at the beginning of this this year.

We're in the implementation period at the moment and what we are really seeing is that uh the blockchain kind of technology is transforming markets. It's clear it's happening and at the same time you mentioned AI as well and I think um that has similar effects on how um uh customer relationships will develop, how trading uh decisions will be taken in the future. So there are both of them I think are highly transformative for the financial market. So it's something that we really are very focused on. Maybe if I can just quickly come back to the um market in uh crypto assets regulation.

What we've seen is that a lot of the areas that you are talking about and grappling with are exactly the kind of things that we are also seeing are posing challenges because when you create a legal framework um you find that you know some of the old concepts of how to look at custody for example some of the facts of how do you make sure that there's the right operational risk framework around making sure that ultimately transactions are safe and are going through how can you make that all work in this new technological environment. But there our view is very much that we need to make sure we uh take the concepts the issues around market integrity, investor protection and just make sure that the activities however they are conducted properly meet those requirements and Mika is trying to do that for the crypto space. Um and uh so we are very actively now in the implementation. We're seeing a lot of crossborder big crypto players wanting to come in and basically using the European single market to uh find customers anywhere in the European Union. Um and that is creating some challenges as well because each of the national supervisors now has to use that unique European regime and we need to make sure that it's applied consistently and that is one of the areas that we are actively working on as well.

Um if I could just ask a quick followup um narrowing the focus even more on crypto. If you couldn't tell I'm from the crypto council for innovation so a lot of cryptoreated questions but how is ESMA approaching regulating a centralized uh crypto exchange versus a DeFi protocol? you touched upon it but would love u just a little bit more if you don't mind.

Uh [clears throat] excuse me. Sure. Um so a crypto exchange you know fits in some ways a lot of the concepts that a traditional exchange does. It operates differently but at least you know you can kind of tack certain things that we are all familiar with. When you get to pure DeFi actually Mika excludes that at the moment.

So it's not covered by the markets and crypto assets regulation. Having said that, I think the evaluation of what is a genuine DeFi application needs to be taken really case by case because very often you still have key players in the system. And so what we were we are certainly looking at is um you know where do you draw the boundaries and how can you make sure that for uh applications and and technological use which basically still has a responsible person somewhere that you would still want to tack basically the regulatory and supervisory attention to that. Um Christine uh we've heard from a private practitioner in law two global regulators. Would love your perspective as an investor market participant perspective.

How are you seeing market infrastructure evolve as AI and onchain tools are being becoming even more um embedded in financial products and transactions?

Yeah, sure. I mean like I I think it's important to note that AI is traveling on a different path than digital assets right now. I know that there's like a subset of people that are working on the convergence of AI and blockchain and I actually do think it's a real convergence. I actually do think that blockchain payments is lends itself um incredibly for AI [clears throat] agents to interact with each other. AI chat bots even without the actual agent part.

we have been proven to just be really great at programming and you know really what is digital assets like programmable money programmable assets right so I think that eventually comes in time but it will take a little bit uh blockchain people think about AI AI people don't think about blockchain at all unfortunately um but you know we are seeing some evolution there I think most recently you would have seen some of the um you know announcements from Stripe and Shopify and you know they are absolutely using AI and I to reim imagine the consumer retail experience and over time beyond just like helping you to find like the best shoes at the lowest cost like over time those agents will also at some point instruct payments probably through credit card rails. I think like some of the really interesting questions there will be like okay when you have AI agents instructing payments or instructing value transfer like how do you KYC like and do AML on AI agents? Do they just like adopt your, you know, sort of identity as like either the entity or the person? Like I I think this is sort of what Meg to your point about needing to update the boxes for this future world where it's like it's changing and you know there there we we we need to just acknowledge that there's change there and at least provide guidance on you know how AI agents can make payments to each other and you know transact on shoes maybe right um on [clears throat] on the digital asset side uh you know I think similarly like obviously you've heard a lot about you know DeFi and and CFI I um you know I think that there are also and as a regulated institution Apollo like you know asset manager like we like we try to operate within the confines in which we are currently operating in but nonetheless like there are still like challenges where you know we have we have tokenized one of our private credit funds and we are doing KYC AML acredation and subdoccks exactly the same way that our partners are actually like you our our tokenization partners are doing it exactly the same way that it is done today. And so you know sometimes like you I have to explain to my manager like yes it it has the same exact process as you know as it is exists today and that's great because that means like we're doing things the right way and you know but then the question comes back like well I thought this was digital assets like I thought that this was supposed to be more seamless.

I thought we were going to improve the experience and like how how is that going to happen? I mean, you know, first of all, we all need to like step back and realize that blockchain as a technology is a ledgering technology, not a user experience technology. So, it was never going to solve that problem. Um, but I do think that what we hope to see in the next couple of years is, you know, kind of more techn technologically driven novel ways to achieve the same thing around proper KYC, AML, accredation and onboarding. something perhaps a little bit more seamless and scalable than what exists today.

Um and and that's like at such a basic level like that is happening right now. Uh you know like it yes we can like talk about the future where like you know robots are you know transacting and you know trading with each other in crypto but like to be honest today this is like you know really what holds commercial business back like the fact that you know documents are hard to complete. we need to complete them. Someone needs to complete them. And you know, it it kind of uh is not exactly compatible with the velocity and the seamlessness of you know that that people would hope for for digital assets in crypto.

Um I know we were talking about tokenization before uh Christine and you just mentioned a lot of this but um where do you see the necessity for regulated human controlled intermediaries in tokenized futures? You mentioned KYC documentation. Are there other areas that you're particularly focused on? Yeah, I mean I would say that at this point all AI and all digital assets have human in the loop. Um and I think that's going to uh you know exist for some time especially in regulated financial services.

I think maybe you know perhaps like consumer experiences uh may have you know other other uh may have more flexibility but definitely as a regulated asset manager like we have humans in the loop. Uh, and I think I I just I guess my perspective and maybe this is just me, so maybe we should just get some of the other more crypto DeFi native people up here to talk about it. I mean, for me, as you know, as most of you know, like I've been at Apollo for three years. Previous to that, I built and led JP Morgan's blockchain program for a decade. So you know certainly like I am coming from a trady point of view in that um you know I see the promise of DeFi technology and blockchain and tokenization not as like the destroyer of the existing financial world but actually just could we make our own tradi regulated products faster more efficient can we offer better experiences so you when I spend my time, you know, world building and architecting like the future, there's always a construct of like there's, you know, some sort of registered investment advisor or some sort of regulated party that is, you know, doing something may use DeFi rails, but certainly not like a nameless, you know, uh, entityless technologies just more like how do we take this technology inhouse?

How do we have our collaborators and our counterparties take in this technology in-house and you know just make what we currently do better and more efficient?

Um coming back to Commissioner Pur, I know, um we've talked about tokenization just now with Christine. We're chatting briefly and you mentioned that's a priority area for SEC as well. Are there specific considerations that you're focused on with tokenization from the SEC perspective?

Yeah, there are a lot of different things. I mean there are a lot of mechanisms that people have suggested to deal with or to tokenize. So we're thinking about you know wanting to give people the opportunity to try those different models. Um let the market pick the model that it likes. But I think there are a number of challenges.

We've heard from a lot of uh TRDFI folks who are very concerned that tokenized securities will get a pass on existing securities laws. And so um you know thinking about how does reg regulation NMS interact with tokenized securities. So there's some difficult questions there. Um trying to make sure that again people understand what they're buying. So working on disclosure issues to make sure that um the issuers of these tokenized securities are telling people what what um the the the purchasers are actually getting.

Um, and then thinking about what the what the actual thing is. Once you tokenize an asset, it can change into something else. Are you are you creating a securitybased swap which has different rules around it um than a regular security has um so those kinds of things um are are some of the issues that we're working with.

Um Meg, you of course adise financial institutions on a daily basis. um what are some of the foundational legal and contractual assumptions that you're seeing that are being most challenged uh by the increase and rise of onchain finance, AI and all the uh things that we just discussed.

That's a very big and very hard question and and I'm hoping that some of the other panelists will chip in and we'll get a little interaction on this one. Um and I and I think everywhere and everything is probably not the right answer except it is probably the right answer. Um there are um you know there are a surprising number of contractual questions. Who contracts with whom? If you put in place a wallet in your Treadfi, how do those contracts work?

There are a surprising number of insolveny questions, right? um particularly in DeFi, you know, when you're thinking if the cash leg is not part of the if then protocol um which is my term for smart contracts because they're not really contracts. I think of them as an if then protocol um and if you think about the synopsis evolve situation which of course did not involve digital tech, you know, uh distributed ledger technology and it would have been better if if they'd had it, right? Because there you got oldfashioned recordkeeping that people aren't able to keep track of. Um, and then you just have the entire panopoly of, you know, what commissioner purse was pointing out of all of the traditional securities laws, all the traditional commodities laws, and all of the traditional banking laws.

And if you you take a look at the Clarity Act and the RFIA, they're smushing them all up together, and you can't understand it unless you're cross-reading the Securities Act, the Securities Exchange Act, the Commodities Modernization Act, the National Banking Act. And you know that's that's just gets me back to everywhere and everything. But I'd be interested in um others points of view here because I'm I'm sure there are many.

Any any takers? Anyone want to react to what Meg just said.

I mean I think the insolveny issues are are really important for us to think about. So I'm glad you raised that

and and which leads us again I'm only in uh in in in CFI here leads us to questions of resolution and resolution planning and you think about that much simpler for stable coin issuers than it would be for a traditional bank but you know insolvenies like the thinking about insolveny is like thinking about prenups when you get married right uh it it doesn't mean you're going to get divorced but it does mean you have to you pre-plan what happens

I don't want to put you on the spot but brought up bankruptcy which is I agree a very important topic. Uh do you see that as an overhaul of the existing US bankruptcy code changes in specific provisions or too early to tell as to how to address this?

Well there there were some changes in specific provisions in the genius act right in order to put the stable coin holders above others in the bankruptcy so that they're not caught in a long liquidation. Um, other than that, um, I I think and then there stable coin issuers, you have to think about what they're going to do. And then we we actually have had one occurrence, although we've all forgotten about it, of a centralized exchange uh, going bankrupt. Uh, and that took a very very long time. And there um, I don't know the specific provisions, but there's got to be an easier way to do it.

I don't mean to make this a bankruptcy topic, but I would love your thoughts, Chair Ross, if you have any on just how the EU is focused on insolveny, bankruptcy for centralized exchanges or beyond. It's a really tough topic and I think you know we're grappling with exactly the same things over on the other side of the pond because you have uh these a lot of the questions are how do you actually deal with uh these type of issues around contract law uh insolveny law um and what is a settlement finality.

Oh dear. Oh dear.

Exactly. So there are plenty of these issues and we are exactly grappling with the same issues of how do you make sure that actually the existing legal concepts that provide after all the security and the safety to the people who are investing in these uh these products. How can you make sure that actually that translates across?

Uh well I'm going to stop the bankruptcy questions here and move on to disclosures. Uh but uh turn to Commissioner Pur. Um, do you think the traditional disclosures SEC's traditional tool is sufficient in a world where we have again AI models onchain protocols where they're operating as the market actors themselves?

Well, I think the SEC's rules are designed to be, you know, materiality based and and so it kind of depends which disclosures you're talking about it. But but I do think um that if we're talking about our our um you know product disclosures, those can really get at what is it what is it that you're buying. Um I think one of the areas we've run into trouble is when it when we're talking about you know you want to do an initial coin offering and what what do you use as your framework there? Um I think there we need to think about what information people actually need to get. you can't just shove it into one of the existing models that we have.

Um, so I think there's work to be done there. Um, I think I can't um I I you know I can't not mention the fact that the technology itself has the ability to radically change the way that we do um that we do disclosure. Chris Brummer has written about this. Um so we were just talking about that before I came up. Um and so I think that we should look at the positive side too.

There are going to be challenges but there going to be there are going to be new possibilities with this technology also.

Um I want to leave a little bit of room for questions in a few minutes but going back to Christine um you explained Paul's perspective on a lot of these issues already but how are institutional investors evaluating both opportunities and risks uh when allocating strategies that are built on decentralized infrastructure or again AI?

Yeah I mean I would say you know It looks like any other investment that we're going to do which is what is the business value creation opportunity how is it going to scale right I mean I can't tell you how many times people try to just pitch me something that is like this very novel technology but it's like okay but what is it what what are we going to get from this technology like what what's the follow through how does this actually get implemented and adopted right so um you know that's really important to us and you know kind of the way that we see that or the way that we try to discern that is you know we like to be a really involved hands-on user of the technologies that we invest in. Um and you know oftentimes like we can there there is occasions in which we cannot get comfortable using you know really early technology but at least we'll give direct feedback as to why we could not get comfortable like this is sort of the value proposition that we try to um give to some of the companies that we you know invest with. I think that the regulatory risk is like always, you know, especially in decentralized protocols like always is kind of like top of the list. Um I actually have an investment partner where literally like this is like his number one question all the time and it's like the first question always uh like okay well like you know what is the regulatory risk on this and like what do we think and you know I think for us whilst we have been able to invest in some decentralized technologies our expectation is if it looks like it should be a regulated activity that this team will actually go forth and like you know try to get regulated or try to partner with regulated entities or be you know sort of a software solution for regulated entities, right? So like you know we're not yet at the point I don't think we'll ever get there at the point where it's literally like well yolo it's DeFi like you know we can just do whatever we want here right I think maybe there are some investors who have and certainly there have been in the near- term significant gains for them but for us where the prize is real world mass adoption like real like the real mark like broadcaled markets that we operate in today using these technologies Um having regulatory clarity, not engaging in regulatory arbitrage is important to us because that like means you can actually like get the prize of like the world that we see um as opposed to you know kind of the small world that exists today.

So anyway definitely evaluating risk on all fronts. Uh you know we haven't talked about it but you know certainly the second number one question outside of regulatory risk is like smart contract risk. I mean, this is also very nebulous. Like, people are always like, it's like, why can't we put like hundreds of millions of dollars into the T5 protocol? Like, let's do it.

Like, sounds amazing. And it's like, well, I guess there could be smart contract risk, there could be hacker risk. And it's like, what is that? Like, how like how do you, you know, quantify that? Obviously, like, you know, responsible parties will do many different types of audits, technology and cyber security audits.

Um, but I think we've seen like that risk is very prevalent and like a real thing that we just need to learn to coexist with in this world.

Commissioner Per.

Yeah, I just wanted to to weigh in not on the smart contract risk. I think it's it's really good to have um people like Christine out there testing um these these different products that people are trying to build and asking those questions. Um, I think they're important questions to ask, but I I also think we need to figure out a way to enable the market to be able to test products without having people jump into the full regulatory um uh paniply um because it is really difficult for a small project. I mean, we've seen that on the state level where projects have had to go to all 50 states to get um to to get um licenses to do things. And so I think one of the things that we have the ability to do and and Meg mentioned this earlier um the importance of giving the SEC exemptive authority.

We have a fair amount of exemptive authority already but I really think that is to be able one of the purposes of that is to to allow people to start on a small scale see whether there's market appetite for something and then try to figure out okay what does the long-term regulatory solution look like? And so I think you've heard Chairman Atkins who was here yesterday um talking about innovation exemptions and that's really what we're trying to get at. How can we enable people to try things um without having to just jump into the full SEC rule book which is really daunting

and and I would add preeemption is also a beautiful thing in this area. [snorts]

No, I just wanted to come in to say that is also one thing that we have been trying to do with in Europe. We have a DT pilot regime actually which uh was introduced a couple of years ago. It hasn't really had the take up that we originally imagined that we have a few projects but they are quite small and uh so on. And when we asked for feedback so what is it that's kind of not appealing? Why are you not using that?

Um obviously regulation does come up uh from time to time but what has also come up interestingly and it talks a bit to what commissioner um just said is the fact that you need to create a an kind of sandbox approach where you can actually also see some future and you are not putting too tight thresholds on it. So we as Esma just provided some feedback to the co-legislators basically saying if we want to prolong this pilot regime let's try to make it a bit more flexible because people also need to see prospect in their projects and if you make it too tight it might give you a few of the reliefs but if you can't see it grow then it just won't take off

and I mean not to be greedy but the ideal would be if we could let some of these pilots happen cross border so that they could do something in the EU, they could do something here at the same time and we could share the wisdom that we get from from that. But I've also heard that even the process of going through the application to be part of a pilot program can be just not worth not worth it. Um and so we have to be very careful in how we think about designing programs. I'm sure that's something that you all are thinking about as well. Um, you know, dealing with a team of technologists who haven't had a lot of hours with their lawyer is uh is a very different thing than dealing with a lot of the people that we normally deal with um in the in the trady world.

I thought we were about to have breaking news about a new crossber pilot here. But uh um so I have a lot more questions about preeemption even about what ESMA's thinking about with uh CAPS and u national competent authorities. But I want to leave a few minutes for the audience to ask questions. We have about 5 minutes now. Um so if you have a question for a panelist um please Daniel if you don't mind.

Um

hi love to see the full panel of women in finance. Um I'm currently a master's student at Wake Forest University. Um obtaining my mers in financial technology. So I'm practicing deploying smart contracts tokens for different case scenarios. So I guess in this time what would you suggest someone trying to get into develop these these technologies the right way um ethically um for different case scenarios as a student?

How would you suggest them diving into this shifting uh financial world of a market? I mean, I would just point to what Christine said, which is identify a problem that needs a solution and set out to solve that problem. I mean, that's the beauty of our system, right? Is that um people who are entrepreneurs are are are problem solvers, right? And so, really applying that same mindset here.

I guess I would say I have three grown sons who all are at that entry level and it is so hard these days. Um, it's just completely different getting your first foot on that first rung of that first ladder. Um, I think no one with gray hair in this audience can understand the stress unless unless maybe you're a parent. Um, I would suggest also getting yourself as conversant in AI skills that will help as you possibly can. um that is you know essentially where the futures are going to converge and if in making the technology AI can help you and you know how to speak to old people like me who need help in that um that it'll be easier to get your first foot on that ladder.

And and lastly in the crypto ecosystem at large there are tons of different projects and companies. They're all quite young and they can all use a lot of help. Um, and so, you know, just finding a project that resonates with you or problem statement that resonates with you as Commissioner Pierce said, and then, you know, kind of offering to help. And, you know, that it's I I have found the crypto ecosystem to be super collaborative, super open, and, you know, willing to take in like as many, you know, sort of people or participants, community members as possible. So yeah, definitely just go find some projects that you're interested in and reach out to them directly.

Hey, uh thanks a lot for the great panel. Uh one quick question on the DeFi side. I've seen lot of focus on the consumerf facing side of the equation but is there any thought on the clearing and settlement side where the onchain settlement is much more transparent is kind of final. So for example like chain like Ethereum can it substitute against uh requirements for DC or DTCC and uh clearing side on the European side Europe clear. Yeah, I mean the the fact is, you know, talking about finding problems to uh solutions to problems, not problems to solutions.

Um I think the post-trading area is clearly one where uh there is a lot of potential because in the end there's not only the speed and efficiency you can gain, but there's also the fact that you take risk out of the system by being able to clear and settle immediately. and uh atomic atomic atomic settlement excuse me problems articulating today. Um it's clearly something that is the kind of area that everyone is looking at to try to ultimately make sure that clearing and settlement is more efficient and can support much faster, much more efficient and more liquid trading in the end.

Um thanks y'all for being here. You're fantastic. Um, I don't know, Commissioner Purse, if you can speak more to this or not, but yesterday, Chair Atkins talked about a new project management system to handle the and kind of organize all of the exemptive relief requests that are coming in and guidance relief requests that are coming in and manage it across divisions and kind of um keep everything orderly and on time. Um, is there anything more you could talk about like how that might work and if it has started? And I don't mean to put you on the spot if if it's not something you can speak to.

No, I mean it I think the crypto task force is trying to help to shepherd things through the building. I mean a lot of the work is done by the staff um in the different divisions. It is helpful for us. I mean I guess just for people who are interested in availing themselves of some sort of a um an exemption or trying to get a no action letter, give us as much information as you can. um and and sort of you can probably guess some of the questions that we'll ask and so be be prepared to answer those questions and then we will um try to get those sent through the system.

We have um so if you email cryptose.gov of when we're not shut down, there's normally someone on the other side of that who is um one of the most efficient people that um that one can imagine and someone who thinks a lot about process and so she's been thinking a lot about these kinds of issues. Can I maybe just add something which is not I mean coming from outside the US one thing that we are actively looking at how can we as supervisors and regulators also deploy some of the technology that is now there whether that's AI whether that is uh other technological help basically and we're looking at that actively we're trying to make sure we learn from each other so it's also about crossber exchange on those type of topics and you can see it whether it's market abuse monitor monitoring whether it is you know being more efficient in answering some of the questions and helping with the experience visa v the supervisor all of that is really important for us as well and then one other thing I'll add is there's been some talk in the legislation of having some sort of an ombbudsman um and I think that could um be helpful not only with respect to crypto but more generally we you know I have seen so many instances in my now very long time at the commission of people coming in um with an idea and the idea just gets bounced from division to division and it's very very frustrating and especially if you're depending on uh on funding that's running out and you're bumping up against a deadline and I think having someone to have the assigned role of shephering stuff through could be quite helpful and I know that um Chairman Atkins has been thinking about that as well. Um, I see Daniel looking at me, which is a sign that we've wrapped this up. But, uh, can everyone please join me in u just thanking our amazing uh, panelists today.

[applause] Great. Thank Thank you so much to the panel and to G and Chris. I mean, you heard it incepted here. The EU US sandbox. All right, we're going to take a break until 3:40 and we'll be back for our last panel.

You can stand up if you like.