Shifting Market Dynamics: The Institutional Impact on Crypto - TOKEN2049 Singapore 2024

my name is Laura viella I'm the head of bdn strategy at MNC group a multi strategy fund I would like to give first a couple minutes to our panelist today to introduce themselves thanks Laura uh my name is Ben Roth I'm the founder and C IO of oros uh which is a market making and electronic trading firm we have 100 People based in Hong Kong but with offices around the world we trade over 50 markets account for 3 to 4% of global crypto volumes every day and um we have actually 10 people here in in around the conference so look for the people with the AOS shirts and go up and say hi they're very friendly uh hi I'm Alex Thor I'm head of research at Galaxy uh you may have heard of us called Galaxy digital um and we are a large multiservice financial company in crypto we have a large Asset Management business with ETFs um and hedge funds we have a large trading business um doing derivatives OTC spot electronic uh lending and a variety of other businesses um and yeah I run research there we publish a lot of stuff publicly check it out galaxy.com resarch um hi gvan V so Global head of cryptocurrency products um for CME Group um we have uh Futures and options on Futures on both Bitcoin and E ether um for those of you unfamiliar with with CME Group we are the world's leading derivatives platform um have been helping clients for over 180 years helping them manage risk um and in December of 2017 we introduced uh Bitcoin uh Futures my name is Luke stas I'm the CEO of derit um for the ones that don't know was we are the biggest crypto options exchange out there um we just reached the trillion dollar uh 12- Monon trading volume um TR Benchmark which of which 2third approximately is options so uh options is our biggest product uh where BTC options uh dominate the flow uh the next one would be e um and then we launched linear options about 6 months ago where we have products like xrp salana uh and we will be launching B&B options uh soon awesome thank you all right I want to start with our Stellar topic of the year which is the ETF ETF howly had the biggest impact for institutional adoption of crypto so far about 5% of the supply is held by the ETF in addition to that of course we have Micro strategy with 1% and other large corporations globally not only in the US but also in Europe in Asia that are starting to add Bitcoin into their balance sheet whether that is in the form of the ETF or or the physical form of Bitcoin so what do you believe to be the most important changes that the ETF has brought to bitcoin or crypto in general Alex maybe you want to lead this one sure yeah it's it's obviously a highly accessible institutional grade product right an American spot-based commodity trust ETF um I think the Bitcoin ones have been wildly successful we've already seen some top allocators pensions right the state of Wisconsin investment board is one of the most notable that that own directional um exposure to bitcoin through the ETFs I think the the audience probably knows all of the highlevel reasons why these are um they're great products aside from crypto ETFs are extremely easy for everybody to use I think we're what we're waiting for for further adoption is for the Bitcoin ETFs to get put into model portfolios at the wirehouses to um for there to be some incentive for advisers to actually look at putting them in in there we we also want options on the ETFs which basically every other ETF has inexplicably not available yet uh in the US one of the interesting things that I have been saying about the ETFs and we thought would be true was that their existence will of course I think dampen volatility over time people the products are made for financial advisors we can all already buy Bitcoin pretty easily but an adviser can't easily put you know 500 client portfolios into a Bitcoin allocation it will Dam dampen the volatility in a way that um if you buy Bitcoin on binance you it's very easy for you to sell it and buy eth and then sell that and buy the next thing and this will also create a less cyclical environment in the market I think where you and we're seeing that in this market which has been mostly Bitcoin driven so I think the the historical cycles of crypto price action will also be dampened because of these products and some people are concerned about the concentration that that the ETF uh are holding in on the Bitcoin side is that something that any of you is concerned about or what would you tell the audience okay I I think when you look at um at ETFs right um to just further um Alex's point it's really drawn in additional participants to the space so participants that may have been say um crypto curious but couldn't trade on spot exchanges or or some of the other uh available products they're now in the space um and and those products have been extremely successful uh perhaps the the most successful uh ETFs launched so we see those products now driving volumes really across the ecosystem right when we launched Bitcoin Futures back into December 2017 we designed that contract with the expectation that ETFs would be around the corner maybe 6 months at most but it would take four years um for the the Futures based um uh ETF that that pro shares pioneered and then almost six years for the very successful spot products to uh to come but when we look at volumes just comparing uh our average daily volume this year to last year we've seen uh volumes more than double as a result of um liquidity provider authorized participant activity really leaning on the liquidity of our futures contract to provide liquidity for those ETFs and also like to point out that in the case of the Futures based products all those products have to hold and there's over a dozen of those those uh uh ETFs um all those uh firms have to hold CME uh Futures contracts so that's helping to drive record open interest since November of last year uh we are the leading uh Marketplace for Bitcoin open interest um and that's even when compared to some of the unregulated platforms including say you know the so-called Perpetual swaps right and in the case of the spot products more than half of those products are benchmarked to CME and and and crypto facilities now CF benchmarks uh reference rates and uh and both Bitcoin and ether products that we help develop with with um with crypto facilities back in 2015 just really providing the marketplace with an identifiable single point reference for the price of um of of of Bitcoin and we really seeing those products becoming the Benchmark I got a slightly different take um I agree with what you guys have said it's it's really um these products are really spurred in kind of new wave of adoption through through the institutional landscape at some to some level I find it somewhat concerning that it's taken a new rapper for institutions to actually get involved um given that crypto as a as a kind of asset class is defined by self custodia and um non kind of gatekeeper environment it's taken it's taken this kind of familiar rapper that people are are used to to to actually get into an asset class that's that was designed to avoid that type of rapper and I'm I'm wondering what you guys actually think I'm going to take the role of um moderator at this point I'd actually be interested of what you guys think it's going to take to for for these types of users to get involved in the physical and the the actual industry as opposed to just purchasing a rapper around around the the asset class I I think from from our perspective it's the answer to your question is excess so it's of course it's sad in a way that that this is needed uh on the other hand if you see the daily operations we're engaged in and the differences in in onchain Recons audits all of that stuff if you then imagine all the investment Banks converting to that new type of behavior systems all of that it will it will take ages so yes it's sad U but it's necessary it's Paving the way uh to adoption perhaps a few years from now perhaps 10 years so that's the way we see the ETF as well it's just access and now there's hundreds of billions in the ETF and step two is derivatives it's it's efficient access it's uh Capital efficient access it's hedging for events it's elections coming up macro themes uh rate Cuts all of that has an impact on on on prices and and can be addressed using options using Futures using something um but without the ETF is step one uh step two will never be executed so in the end all of us here in the room expect this to happen and this is just step one it's it's it's it's there's much more to come which will benefit everyone yeah I I agree with that take the best way to own Bitcoin is obviously to hold your own keys right the owners of the ETFs they can't send Bitcoin over the Bitcoin Network take the ethereum ETFs even even a Starker Delta between the utility of real etherium and e or in an ETF right can't do defi with your eth ETF shares can't stake it and earn yield um so it's obviously better to actually hold crypto directly hold Bitcoin directly some of my most DieHard Bitcoin friends very concerned to your question Laura about the concentration risk oh my gosh Black Rock owns all this Bitcoin now um or their clients do um obviously like on a first orders basis the ETF Bitcoin is not a proof of stake chain so the amount of Bitcoin that you own grants you exact zero direct control over the chain but of course you know in the in the case of a contentious hard fork or something like that the the own the economic power of the chain can influence what happens to it but I take a a very optimistic View kind of like Luke is describing here which is if if we talk just about Bitcoin if Bitcoin is going to become globally adopted money or digital gold it's going to be in every type of account that you can imagine you're going to have Bitcoin in your checking account on your fintech app and in your money market funds and your ETFs right so to me this is actually what hyperbitcoinization looks like this is what winning looks like but um you know we absolutely uh push a narrative and and try to explain through education why actually holding the actual thing is is best it's stickier right like once people actually embrace the industry and embrace the technology then it's stickier capital and stickier users than just people purchasing a ticker symbol right and most of those ities the banks or even the fintechs or the the wirehouses they can't actually use it yet in the US um banks are largely prohibited from touching crypto directly right so I think once they can then you can go into your brokerage account or your your managed account at your bank and they can have Bitcoin allocated in your account but actually it is Bitcoin and if you were to need them to send you the Bitcoin out of your account they could right or if we get redemptions in kind from the ETF same same thing if you could move it in and out of the ETF that'd be great I think you you want to preserve that option for self- custody and direct ownership but I I don't think it's like a requirement for every person and certainly not for every institution but but I think it also depends on on where you are I think when you look at developed markets and and and ETFs just become another access product right um but the entity of the that's taking that exposure is is doing more so for an investment right but when you look at different jurisdictions you look at places like you know Latin America Central Republic of Africa uh other places where they actually see a use case for uh for Bitcoin there it I think it might make more sense to for those individuals to hold Bitcoin but I think in developed countries it's more I'm I'm looking at this more as an investment and and I'm comfortable with getting that exposure through an ETF right so when we talk about otfs it's pretty much more from a US perspective or the institutions that we think about it it's mostly from a US perspective we in in Asia now Asia has a really big role to play also in crypto where are Asian institutions in the process of adoption and who are the agent institutions so you know we see um you know Hong Kong as I think um led the APAC region in terms of uh ETFs and now there are ETFs on both Bitcoin and ether uh both Futures based and and um spot based as well I think there's about 10 or a dozen uh different ETFs with five different ETF providers um uh Prov providing access to these products um the majority actually all of those products are benchmarked to um the the CME uh CF reference rates both both both Bitcoin and ether and we're really seeing in region and things that the ETF Market in Hong Kong compared to the US market Market it's still relatively small but I think in general uh ETFs in region um are small relative to to other uh Global ETFs but we we do see um activity coming from the Apec region um in fact about 40% of a day's Futures volume is traded before 9:00 a.m. New York time right so really signaling that there's strong activity during extended trading hours we probably have about 11% of our volume coming out of APAC and that's an uptick from um where we were last year and I think really um to further highlight the interest in the region you know we take a look at the activity on on August 5th this year right um right around when the bank of Japan increased rates there was an unwind of the the cash and carry trade you know that morning between 8 or actually 9: to 10:00 a.m.

Singapore time we traded close to 70,000 contracts in that hour so close to 2 billion in terms of notional typically in that hour we trade less than 2,000 contracts so we really saw a 35x increase um in in in in that hour um and represented say 14% of of of overall volume and regular trading hours in in in Singapore so looking at 9:00 a.m. to to 400 p.m. local time we probably traded over 36% that day so so really highlighting that market participants knew where to go to access uh liquidity right so they they really turn to our trusted reliable market for that look I'm curious from a de's perspective how has the Asian user base changed since you guys launched more than eight years ago I think we've always been uh quite significant in Asia and we still are so if you if you look at our from an our perspective um we trade most when volatility is highest typically volatility is driven by whatever news and and and and macro events where the US dominates so our wise us pre-open is is on average our highest volume slot however if you look where the volume is coming from a significant part comes from Asia so it's not traded by people in the same time zone it's people trading 12 hours away so a lot of it is automated uh of course volatility hft all of that stuff trades by systems and not by people pressing a button so it doesn't really matter that much if you look at where the flow is coming from in terms of unique users active users on a monthly basis or AUM assets deployed with us a lot of it is coming from ASM where we see growth especially this year is family offices so it's either directly trading on their or it's them allocating assets via so-called smas the segregated managed accounts so it's simply an office allocating assets to someone else via API keys but then keeping the assets with us so in the family officers account with derit they create a sub account allocate let's say $10 million which is traded by someone else without leaving the account and we see some decent growth there so I expect quite a lot from it because those family offic don't have to hire specialist they can simply allocate Capital someone else without actually moving the capital the next step is more efficiency there we can do invoicing we can do a lot of things reporting on behalf of those managers that we currently don't do so I expect the market to evolve there but if you look at individual Traders hedge funds family offic that's quite a decent growth here uh and Hong Kong is uh leading and I think Singapore would be next uh yeah we've seen an uplift in a probably participation activity through Asia whereas previously it was focused predominantly on hedging um and probably in the last 6 months we've seen a lot more appetite to take some upside and to take some um more participation uh exposure into the industry out of out of our Asian client base um probably wouldn't classify them as institutions in the same way that you would um gvan but um I'd say non retail participants have have taken more of an upside uh participation now moving on to credit markets the collapse of the big credit providers from last cycle like genesis and Celsius has left a gap that hasn't really been covered yet are prime brokerage stepping in to cover that Gap now or what's going on yeah I can I'll I'll speak to that because we're we're seeing a lot of this so it was super noticeable so the market structure has has changed quite considerably from an intermediation model back in 2122 where you had large lenders like genesis and blockfi and Celsius kind of intermediating retail um retail Capital with institutional use so we were major borrowers from all of all of these lenders as were most market makers and training firms and even even still leverage was relatively modest on on most balance sheets they say three three or 4 to one that leverage has almost practically disappeared from from from most most balance sheets the only way to get leverage now is through private deals via exchanges or through some uncollateralized or or subc collateralized borrow which which most of the lenders these days don't offer uh it's probably the one major thing missing in the industry I would say is effective leverage so that um you know market makers and liquidity providers can efficiently cycle Capital around different venues and create liquidity and and efficiency there are some I guess some ideas being Flo um where where you have like pulled Capital vehicles and exchanges can kind of look into those pulled Capital vehicles and we can we can kind of attain leverage that way but is Still Remains probably one of the most inefficient and capital hungry um asset classes out there and the and it's really The Lending Market that's going to solve that um we've got some stuff on chain uh with reaking and with liquid staking Vehicles where you can reh hypothecate and reuse different different versions of collateral but the actual base lending Market still hasn't come back and and isn't really showing signs of coming back above and beyond fully collateralized which I think you guys are quite active yeah I mean it the lending Market absolutely is maybe 130th of what it was in 2022 it's absolutely tiny compared to where we were I've just been talking with this group before we're doing some research on this exact question how big was it and how big is it and I mean we were looking at 20 to 30 billion in total aggregate open loan book uh loan book size across all of these the Genesis block 5 Celsius Galaxy coinbase who whoever else and um that's a lot less liquidity in the system one of the things that I've been uh wondering because at the same time since you know I think the peak was q122 um the options markets have absolutely grown enormously since then and I I know from some of our counterparties who used to hedge or gain leverage by interacting with the lending desks they've now adopted more options trading strategies to do the same that's one of the outcomes I've seen but we're we're not close to getting back to that level of liquidity that we had then you are starting to see some traditionals like Goldman Sachs and caner Fitzgerald enter the the over collateralized crypto lending space a little bit but um not quite nearly at the level yeah and that's not providing leverage to the system right that's just swapping one asset for another I mean some something that we noticed um you know around the collapse of some of those firms particularly after FTX is that you know you're absolutely right that that the lending borrow Market just absolutely collapsed so we started to see anybody really that wanted to establish that short position really came to our market right where there's no borrow needed you you simply just uh sell a Futures Contract and and and you're short so we really started seen more Market participants coming say to to our regulated market we saw our futures Market go into into back ration as a result because anybody that wanted to go short was essentially selling futures um so driving our contracts into back radation uh but fast forward to what we're seeing now right and and going back to the topic about the ETFs ETFs are available now um the um Futures based ETFs can be loaned the spot products um you know can also be loan so I think that that's also helping to fill a little bit of that Gap and and certainly we see our market now back into can contango so the situation where U subsequent Futures contracts trade um at a slightly higher price than than nearer term contracts but our Market is now um about the same levels um in terms of contango where where we were say prior to the collapse of the the various lending platforms I think what what we see is uh the the firms like hidden Road Falcon X Etc stepping in quite sizeably so um they provide credit and they do quite well so um and and we encourage that so all of them trade on multiple platforms and the the the onboarding is easier and easier so they get volume discounts but on they would also provide more efficient Capital Access to let's say CME versus derit so if you trade on derit you you let's say you open a 100 million position you need a certain um amount of capital as margins these firms like hiden Road Falcon X Etc they would provide the the credit uh let's say the 20 million needed for the CME position so the using the btcs deployed with us in the uh in their accounts as collateral so it's it opens the door to trades that were previously perhaps provided by Capital provided by the desks those desks are gone and it's it's partially compensated this way I think there's also part of it is simply solved by laterally two firms trading with each other I think the the discussion topic is that that kind of stuff uh is evolving um more frequently but I think a lot of the crypt native FMS are not familiar with isna so these negotiations take ages um and in the meantime they try and use us as an offsetting venue but I think over time and especially when it comes to different products uh some some some options position that expires uh one year from now that we don't trade um currently margin wise is inefficient uh some of it is like 100% collateralized so these type of Trades I think will evolve in a more efficient setup over time either is that either platforms either uh firms like Galaxy perhaps c will step in um but I think the conclusion that all of those desks are gone and that billions of dollars are gone is incorrect I think it it on a net basis a lot of it is gone uh difficult to quantify but it has been replaced by bilateral M primes now we've seen a bit of this year basically a lot of the hedge funds have up have underperformed Bitcoin could this be related to some extent to this lack of credit or why is it also that the rest of the market hasn't picked up yet any thoughts I think it's the same um structure as traditional markets most hedge funds perform the index I guess if you said Bitcoin is the index if we we want to use that as a proxy there's most most hedge funds don't have Alpha they are they are just beta plus fees so it's not surprising that most of them have underperformed the other thing is that bitcoin's probably the best performing crypto well certainly major crypto of the last 6 to 12 months there's um probably as a result of the the ETF as a result of it being The Logical entry point for large amounts of capital what will be interesting is if you see a more broad-based rally over the next say year or two uh will that will that kind of same Trend continue I would say that hedge funds will probably underperform the broad Market but perhaps might outperform Bitcoin if you if you see a broad Market rally elsewhere and a lot more activity yeah I mean I I agree with that uh wholeheartedly we we run a database called Vision track at Galaxy that tracks 300 plus crypto focused hedge funds fundamental long short Quant strategies a very none of the strategies have outperformed Bitcoin this year this year um historically over longer time periods they have right I mean if we um but it's it's been tricky I think for um I mean I I had an analyst look into this yesterday literally how many coins did outperform Bitcoin look at all 14,000 on coin gecko they found 48 that did right and I mean none of them are in the top 25 obvious right so um It's Tricky if you're trying to get Alpha over Bitcoin it doesn't this is what I was referring to at the beginning about the cyclicality prior bull markets historically speaking you would have seen the the rally move down the risk curve here in crypto and you just haven't seen that yet and most of them right if you're committing money to a crypto hedge fund you Pro you may already own Bitcoin you're looking for for the rest of the stuff you don't know what to do uh you don't have time to investigate those 14,000 coins you're hoping the manager can do that so so the managers are largely uh trying to outperform bitcoin and this has been one of the toughest years to do that it's probably because most of the new flows it tells you where the new flows are coming from right it's not coming from retail chasing beta it's coming from Institutions and and more conservative Capital coming in and just trying to get exposure to the lead asset but I think it also depends on um saor the type of hedge fund right cuz if you're if you're talking about some of the the crypto Focus funds I think that some of those funds you know may have the appetite the ability to to say trade spot but when you look at some of the more traditional um hedge funds um they may not have that access right so a very popular trade that we see with some of those larger macro uh hedge funds is is is the cash and carry trade right and and we've seen that um you know ahead of the the ETF announcement and subsequent launch you know that um basis essentially was running at around 20 20% or so and now it's hovering in the 7 to 10% but it it Still Remains a very popular trade when you look at the 13f filings for the for the various um Bitcoin ETFs you'll see that there's still some some very prominent large uh hedge funds there and my guess is that they're not just long the ETF right Yep this is why it makes sense for the big credit Market in crypto because even if you go back to uncollateralized credit there are some credits in crypto that are probably you know would be rated Triple B or double b and there'd be a price for that and there is excess returns because there is a shortage of dollars and that's where the carry trade comes from if it's trading at 15% what it's saying is there's more people that want exposure to bitcoin than there are dollars in the system and so if you want that leveraged exposure you're paying an implied rate of 15% but but when it was training at 15 20% uh for BTC eth was also generating similar um yield and if you look at today it's whatever 7 8 9 10 um but the the level of interest in eth has dropped significantly if you look at our open interest or volumes or whatever at some point the eth merge and those storylines they were approximately identical not perhaps BC slightly more but it was almost comparable um and everyone was talking of course about perhaps the flippening and those kind of angles e overtaking BC that's completely gone today it's it's BC is twice or more uh the size of uh eth in open interest in volumes in overall narrative no no one's uh chasing e or positioning for massive upside today while for BTC with with war with with ra hikes with with elections it's about the eth macro story and and the Hedge against all of those stories and and E is nowhere to be found so I'm not surprised that in in terms of rankings and performance of hedge funds I think a lot of people are surprised so the E allocation most likely has been way too high for all of those performances versus versus B BC yeah lots of hes there that didn't happen actually does anyone have any strong opinion on why the interest on E not only from like open interest but in general why it's gone down so much over the past few months or the year in general yeah I mean I I have a lot of thoughts about that I would say a thought so look there's a couple things on the one hand if if you were thinking that ethereum could be ultrasound money that it it inherently is not a strong argument when um no one can tell you what the inflation rate will be at any given time like I mean Bitcoin I think people realized that that was a silly argument for ethereum just generally so it's not not going to be a better digital gold than Bitcoin on the other hand it's a platform for running applications it's facing unprecedented competition from Solana there there absolutely was not a viable contender in 2021 or 2017 to compete with ethereum for the generalized smart blockchain smart contract blockchain use cases um and it it's almost a victim of its own success the layer 2 networks which are absolutely very successful um I think they're dilutive rather than accretive to eth USD at the moment um and and and then lastly probably the biggest reason is all if you think of ethereum as a platform for developing applications which is how I prefer to think of it all of that application categories that drove all this interest in demand from 21 and 22 are just down horribly right like when was the last time anyone on the stage heard the term metaverse right um nfts they're here to stay but go look at trade volumes they're a fraction of what they once were um gaming those are high cost long leadtime uh products to build high quality video games there isn't one still that is you know like a breakout hit um so you know tokenization it's it's back um I remember it was a huge deal in 2016 um but it's it's still not really here right you've got some real world asset stuff but so the narratives are also stagnant or even decaying that drove so much interest in ethereum then as well so It's a combination of those in my it's more of an a BTC story right like it's not so much negative e or negative salano it's more just there's no natural narrative to to drive a lot of capital inflows for those uh for those coins but BTC has an obvious Catalyst and an obvious narrative and so that's where all the capital's flowing and the rest of it is kind of just a little bit stagnant at the moment at some stage that Capital now that it's in the industry will will likely you know you know flow to the the higher beater and higher risk areas of the industry but at the moment everybody you know coming into the industry is just chasing BTC in the narrative because it is very compelling and and I think um you know it's like with Bitcoin you have more of a defined use case where there's a lot of talk you know it's a store of value could be um a payment network but with with ether it's like into your point there just really hasn't been that that killer app that that that people can wrap themselves around right so whereas we thought that sometime this year would be ether's turn it seems to be bitcoin's turn all over again right it's just a very easily digestible narrative and use case yeah I mean there are the the one category I didn't mention that's quite durable is defi it's widely used it's uh but it's not this isn't the summer of 2020 defi summer when that enthusiasm was actually driving Capital onto the chain to me I look at defi today is extremely useful for onchain wealth and and we use it um at Galaxy we're we're involved in D5 markets but you don't have like exogenous wealth moving on chain to use these tools it's more about the people that already have wealth on chain that need access to tools um so I I don't it's not growing at the moment right and so um the other one is stable coins they're great but again they don't they don't really drive and there's certainly not an ethereum only story um and if you think about the growth and payments with stable coins that's mostly not happening on eth layer one either so yeah it I I'm confident this will come back but I think there was so it's we're almost in Hangover from the the drunken exuberance of the 21 and 22 when it comes to like crypto and web 3 narratives yeah touching on thank you touching on get with our last topic um one of the biggest advancements I guess that we have from the previous cycle has has been a bigger push towards off exchange custody where are we on the process are there already a lot of Institutions embracing that or are they waiting for a bit more development for us is is it's one of the biggest agenda items for this year so we we offer off exchange access via uh copper via cobal VIA fire blocks uh via Falcon X um we've announced to implement zodia next um and going forward I think the the next for us on the road map would be Signum back bit go commu for us in the end starting with the ETF story it's about access so people want access either via an ETF but they also want access via uh custodian dead trust which could be a us custodian with the QC status some others want an Asian custodian some others want whatever Swiss custodian for us we want there to be zero reason not to trade derit that could be regulatory wise that could be trading products uh but it's also custody wise so off exchange custody I think for us the so we hold approximately let's say 88 89% of the assets directly so 11% 12% is currently off exchange I think 6 months from now it will be 20 30% it I think it would really go rapidly because the institutions will be able if if the custodian has the the the the stamps needed for that particular region uh they will allocate more instead of 100 million directly with us they could do 200 million which will generate higher trading volume so I think for a lot of exchanges but I think we're spearheading that so we we already have more Choice than anyone else we will double that choice in the coming year so it's it's like a key pillar for growth for us and not only the current existing products but also expanding products treasuries whatever dollars um not you don't have to hold dollars with us or treasuries with us but you can hold it with any of these custodians awesome and then we only have 25 seconds left but a quick spit ground next five years where do you think the market cap of digital assets will be at and what are the three top tokens and stable coins can be included in this top three 5 trillion BTC eth tether uh I'll go with s trillion BTC Solana tether like we we we I can't speculate but I do know one thing for sure that our products will be there to help you guys hedge those different tokens um I think B Toc eth and any of the stable coins so I think the fight will be interesting to see so I'm not sure who's going to win but I think it will be massively bigger than it is today awesome thank you very much