Participant Experience Design | Devcon Bogotá

foreign [Music] this before we introduce ourselves with a quote from one of my favorite essays of all time um the optimal user is someone who does not want the burden of choice or feels they do not have the time to make their own decisions it is for this person that the modern web is designed and it is this type of person the modern web encourages all of us to be so this is from Zach mandeville's essay the future will be technical it's at cool guy.website it's a really excellent piece of writing about sort of our relationship to modern technology and um The Way We Exist online and the ways that it damages us so starting from there sorry I'm gonna pull up my notes again I'm going to have our panelists introduce themselves in a second but um just to kind of set the stage for our topic here um in the modern web and what we think of as web 2 everything has kind of these guardrails on it right everything is simplified our paths are clear you have only so many options and this makes things easier but it's also really disempowering um so I think that we all in this room probably agree that things like can and should be different um but what that means is still a little bit fuzzy right like it's still left to be defined and there's even an argument to be made I think that it shouldn't be defined some which is discovered like in cooperation with the people that we're designing for so with that I'm going to invite the panelists to introduce themselves um let us know less interested in affiliation and More in sort of what you do what your background is um and the kinds of people that you design for who you think of as your users awesome hello I am Scott I co-founded gitcoin back in 2017 I think I'm trying to remember it seems like a while ago now um I think for me you know I actually don't uh come from which is I'm on the outlier on this panel like a design background but I do a lot of community design and think about the role of the community in participatory decision making both in the context of the data we run but also in the process of um you know things like quadratic funding which are more about local first sort of community-led decisions for funding and I think um you know that the quote that you mentioned is actually like very resonant to me because the experience of telling I had growing up in the web I think reflects that um and certainly was I think like a you know I was at this era I grew up in this era where I think it was just on the precipice of things like Facebook and all these big platforms which I think I don't need to dive into the details on like that we all know kind of have created this attention um and I sort of saw that magic of the internet uh disappear a little bit and so I'm very hopeful that with the tools we're building here we think about bringing that magic back and like kind of think about you know the weirdness of the internet as it used to be as something that we can actually like use in an empowering way within our own communities um so that's just what came to mind but I'll leave it there that's perfect take over um so guys I'm Hester I work as an independent ux researcher I have a background in Psychology and interaction design and yeah kind of do what is necessary at any given time so I I yeah I don't I particular function or role too much my kind of views I think have been mostly influenced by my last five years or so at status for those of you who are not familiar it's one of the I'd say one of the the older older projects in this space but also an incredibly principle one on bringing privacy and security and participation to everyone by putting access to ethereum onto a mobile phone among other things so that's kind of like what has in a way re-educated me um were educated me in the first place about uh uh kind of the ignorance I had around like privacy and data I'd be giving up and um kind of the trade-off that I was making for convenience um for context I also spent a very short stint at um the ads Department of what is now meta um and so I I have a bit of a nuanced view on kind of the big bad wolf of um social media companies uh as well uh seeing problems as very systematic so that's that's another lens I try to look at things from so um I guess that's me Rachel thank you um yeah my name is Rachel I'm on uh I work at the ethereum foundation on the privacy and scaling Explorations team with Althea um my background is in Fine Arts I went to school for sculpture and I was doing a lot of work related to um you know how do people interact with um objects and spaces and how can those interactions create conversation and communication and um it was also I think a time where I was exploring a lot of like how can you um find metaphor to explain things in new ways and that's what I relate to the work I do on the PSE team we're working with um developers who are creating zero knowledge protocols and apps the content is really abstract and complex so um a lot of my role is like spending time with developers or in conversations with Althea and other designers other communicators and saying like how can we um find ways to make this understandable or familiar so that more people can be involved in conversations around designing for ZK um and the users that were focused on right now are a lot of other app developers and designers who want to be making their own products with the zero knowledge protocols that our team is creating thank you and I will also introduce myself but I wanted to lead with you guys um so my name is Althea as Rachel said I also work on the privacy and scaling Explorations team at the EF but I lead Communications there um I actually also have a fine arts background but as a fine arts major I really gravitated toward what most people would call crafts so I was a ceramicist I was really a Potter because I I just could never really enjoy or get my head around the idea of creating things for people to just consume I wanted to create things that people would like use and have as a part of their lives and eventually destroy probably or give away or whatever that things that are not sort of there for money or to like you know accumulate value or to just be pretty to look at but things that really are part of your life that you can build experiences around um so Rachel's kind of explained what pse's like user base is but um in terms of communicating with that user base I have a similar kind of approach of wanting to put out things that people um we don't just want to Market ourselves right we've like that's not even a little bit what we do but we want to educate people and like invite people to be a part of this to create stuff with us to give us feedback to help us iterate um and to like just themselves become Builders of the worlds that they want to live in um so this panel is ostensibly about user experience but I think it has to start with kind of redefining what a user even is and maybe just throwing out the word user entirely because it kind of sucks for the way that we want to think about the people that are interacting with the things that we create right like user implies this very passive thing um we make you use it's the sort of client server model of like human interaction and we expect as users to have our platform sort of consume and parse and spit back out little package things that we can like then process and this very simple and very sort of deadening way a little bit biased on all this obviously but to think about users in a different way as being sort of more human having like uh you know entire lives Minds responsibilities um like capabilities um really requires a huge mental shift it it means thinking in a very different way about sort of who's on the other end of whatever it is that you're working on um so I wanted to ask you guys like you've all come from more kind of traditional backgrounds right you didn't all start in web three um which is a term I hope to never use again in this conversation and I'm sorry I hate it um because it defines itself against the thing that it's trying not to be right and we want web3 to be something a lot better than like web 2 with a blockchain on it like those foundations are just broken we don't want to build on them we want to rebuild them so um coming from the backgrounds that you did what have been some of the challenges or like the things that you've had to really unlearn or rethink or reimagine as you've been coming into this new space and like coming with this new approach I think for me the biggest learning has probably been that so I before I even did anything and and I'll say crypto I love three like the um my work was actually in more machine learning which is very like much removed from a person because I mean you have sort of this notion in machine learning of like working with people but only in the sense that like people at some point made like training data that you're then kind of applying like at a much later point so like people in the past like often like the far past did something now you're kind of drawing on that I think with something like quadratic funding and what we're doing with Git coin it's much more about like kind of even the word the word agent isn't great but like I'll use agent as compared to like algorithm and I think um you know what we're trying to do is like have people form kind of collective intelligence like you know at a given point in time where they're actually present and they're actually participating and they're actually making a decision you know for now for the future um versus kind of using this previous past like training data and I think that's you know one shift that's been really interesting for me to explore and I think it's being kind of exciting to see that like web you know crypto uh tends to be a lot more about like the idea of people being participants in a system even when um you know they're just kind of providing signal or providing some kind of like aggregate information but I think there's something deeper to that which is just like um Simona pop talks about this a lot too also in the Bitcoin Community uh the idea of like kind of human thriving or like bringing your like whole self to something that you're doing I think there's definitely even Beyond just like I think the user experience kind of concept is a symptom of a broader way of framing like the interaction we have with institutions organizations in which we sort of talk about like oh like I guess we're sort of like a customer where like um you know one we have one facet of ourselves in the in the conversation but I think it's actually much more important for us to think about like how do we start to bring more of ourselves to the institutions that we're building and then how the institutions change as a result of that so I I'm kind of partly thinking of this in the context of like this shift from algorithm to to agent which isn't entirely correct but is is one thing I'm interested in and then I'm also thinking of it in terms of like kind of bringing like one part of the elephant and that sort of like blind man and the element analogy uh to like actually trying to look at the whole elephant and look at the whole picture of each person that's in the community to better kind of serve them in in the institution thanks for mentioning the word future because that was my cue to my notes it was like oh yes future that's what I wanted to say um no I always have this um because we were talking about like users what defines users and in in um ux and design like this is like always Eternal ongoing debate right users versus human centered versus um like the creators there's a lot of different labels that you can give and I'll have different views on it um yeah I I have my own but um I think my most uh critical Insight relates more to how we Define ux which like traditionally coming from a psychology cognitive psychology background was always focused on the usability side like how efficient can we get people through flows are we providing the right information but it was never focused around the future context and to me that's that's been pretty eye-opening um to the extent that I actually looked looked up the official kind of ISO definition of ux which actually does include like context and long-term impacts of what your experience is when you're using something and yeah to me it's been most most interesting to see how the systems that we're building require us to think Beyond these basic flows to talk in design language to what is is going to be going to do for people in the future be it the like the initial users or indirectly their their contacts their environment um yeah I'll leave it at that but great deal oh right no there was one thing I wanted to say I just it occurred to me just now how interesting it is that we are sitting here talking about participation design and like reminder open tier probably just wanted the water didn't you we have to share a mic if somebody comes up that's okay so uh hey guys what and actually uh one of the I've been with my team we have some people here we've been laboring uh Building Products since uh 2013 and we got into web 3 in 2017 probably and one of the huge issues that we always had with products it's a user experience rate and the thing that we have with right now is that it's very hard to get those webto people into web trips so what do you use you use the the tools that we have already like email and password right and we're trying to like to make it really really secure to get those people in a secure in a secure and known for them uh manner to get into our products so I'm a little bit nervous I'm sorry so uh we have we have created the model where you can create an account with username and password and we are smart wallets which means we are built on top of smart smart contracts and we're able to to get the private keys and put it on the browser and put it on the back end so we have like two different private keys and this way we're able to uh to get something they already know and to put it in our product we don't want to change like we're not able to come with something like very different it doesn't make any sense to come with something very different in the educate people how to use it we're using things that they already know and the other point is that uh basically uh with three and blockchain is not uh it's complex and one of the things that we've been working on is explaining transactions in a human friendly way so you're signing something and we're explaining you exactly what you're assigning so there is no bothering right and basically this is the two keys of our product of course we have very smart people and they've been working on their interesting things and the wallet itself works with abstractions when we're taking advantage of all those beautiful things that we have from the smart contracts in general but this is why I actually attended this talk because that's that's the most important part like to get the web through web through users and bring it on web3 that's that's the whole thing in here so we will have created a product that my mom can use easily so she has an email right and our our in here is to to create it securely like to create an account securely into a web tree so yeah awesome go ahead well do you see like so like I mean you're talking about like kind of privacy security like and I think that like ties in to actually your work like Rachel like pretty deeply like how do you think about like explaining that stuff to users like that just seems very difficult especially with ZK especially it's like even on its own complicated but if you want to respond to that first um so when I joined the team that's where my head was like wow this stuff is so weird how do I explain it to my parents um How can I how can we make these apps that um my friends and family can use and I was very stuck in that like headspace and it took me like a little while before I realized that that was like a misdirection for us and our team specifically because we're making public goods what we want to do is we want to make protocols that other people can build with we want to create proof of concept applications that people can use that Inspire them to build and to make so I really liked also and thank you for being the first to join us by the way you're very brave I'm not kicking you out but if anybody else does want to come up you know that wasn't so bad right um yeah come on um but I wanted to just like come back to a point that you made about using kind of well now we've got another volunteer um the more the better right but about using kind of human readable language to describe these kind of complex processes is that this is something that Rachel talked about in her presentation yesterday also um that yes the stuff that's going on is complicated but a lot of the times where you lose people is actually just in literally the language that you use to describe it that people are not stupid and they're not like incapable but they don't know what a zero knowledge proof is they don't know what a polynomial is whatever it is that like putting that stuff into just more common language can go a long way and it's something that I think we kind of forget that people do like to understand things people like to explore people are curious um so like to kind of Empower people by helping them to understand what's going on and helping them to see the tools that are actually in front of them um so I think that that was a really like a powerful point so thanks for that and do you want to go around that or sorry Scott did you have something okay yeah so just to build on what you were saying about complexity so well hi I'm Nelly a head of adoption at ixsec one of the OG's projects in in France and well I wanted to share my experience um because I'm I love Mass adoption and inclusion and diversity in the space and when I joined this project this project was launched by researchers we're doing blockchain confidential Computing and one of our first audiences was people looking for computing Powers data sets applications and it's a very technical um the nickel audience and then my job is going to bring like our technology to masses but when you're doing with oracles confidential Computing you know it's not a cc so we came up with this thing uh it's a new product and uh it's about using confidential Computing to protect our uh personal data so the idea behind this is like hey our protocol is complex and how can we make people identify with our product with our features so trying to sell oracles and you know uh trusted security execution environments is hard but we realize that the thing that was linking us to uh the audience is like nobody identifies with computing power to articles it's really hard but we all have an identity we all have personal data and what we're trying to do is like create you create an avatar and then you put all your um personal data email address age uh everything you transform it using confidential Computing using confidential nfts and this is this the way that now you're going to connect and access products and services in Wave 3 and then everybody can uh can identify it with hologram all the gram is me it's my personal data I transform it and then I connect so one of uh things I learned like try to find that feature that narrative that really connects you uh with your audience even if your project or your protocol is complex yeah I think that's really important like finding something that people can connect to or like see themselves in or that like Rachel said again in your presentation was just really good I'm gonna like reference it probably a few times um but something that feels familiar like you know something that um is like something that you know um did you have something you wanted to add there's well just that one common theme I think and it probably will come up like as other people come up as well which I'll like say anyone else wants to come up should um I think it's really actually interesting to think about like education because we don't really like we don't actually educate users in a lot of we kind of do it implicitly in existing design paradigms where we're just kind of like here's the flow and like then you walk through and by definition you've now understood what you're supposed to do there's a lot of like pre-work that's I think required with like a lot of these products that like we're sort of touching on and like I think there's the option of trying to reduce that there's the option of trying to like have people better identify with that and so like just going back to like your your like sort of first question like how are we redefining what a user is like that part of participation is like being involved in kind of learning and growing and like educating and that's actually something that people I think are like often uh in the context of like using a product or being part of a community like sometimes I'm comfortable with um but it's really important to be able to do that so yeah definitely so and that kind of leads me to and I hope that this one will also be um like another thing that I wanted to bring up um and I think education is like a big piece of this but it's also much deeper um how you inspire people to like to take responsibility for the the actions that they take um responsibility for um you know giving the feedback that helps to shape a platform just responsibility for kind of curating the spaces that we create together um what are some of the other things that we think about when we're trying to like give that power to people and like Inspire and expect them to make that contribution back I can give you a quick answer that no I was thinking along the lines of the the first two people that joined us up here um that we were talking about language right and how do you um use language to help people understand what's going on and if we want to talk about participation design that's that to me is where the pivot is what between users and participants you need to know like what's going on you need transparency on the system in order to participate um so yeah just like my line of thinking of the distinction between designing for users designing for participants we need a lot more system transparency which also means we need to understand how these things work and especially designers need to understand how to bring it then to the surface and communicate it but I'm very curious how to or you're going to bring up so hi my name is Germany like the country um so I'm co-founder of a hyper local Dow in Tampa Florida called Tampa Bay Down TBD for short because we're always figuring out but yeah so one thing we really like to do is like how about the local community and like kind of comes back down to education and onboarding because in Temple we have a diverse group of people old young and one thing that kept coming up for us was before we started getting to like ZK Roll-Ups or different like networks in the uh crypto ecosystem in web3 I realize as we're like doing these like really like um educational like classes is we kept missing the initial principles in which that governs crypto and so what I did was I created this um Visual Web and it has starting in the middle which is the part that people forget is self-sovereign to me so people ask me well why are you here and I'm like well if you read the Bible what does it really mean so that's in the middle and then it kind of breaks out into the trifecta and it goes into like trustlessness consensus proof of work perfect steak ethereum it's then people start to understand like a ravel of oh now I understand the grade to hold now I see why we need DK roll ups to get for that and I think that really helps in terms of what you were saying as well which is like education is key but education forms of like the principles versus really getting into like the buyer code of like well here's how we got to do this you got to start it like no we don't and so yeah that's all I just like wanted to say with that I thought was interesting because education really is important for that I really want to see that um visual okay so I actually think supposed to just like open source you know it can just download and use it for to teach people in your local neighborhoods or communities so yeah awesome and sorry what was it called it's like on like Kumo uh oh like share whoever wants to connect after this and give you the link so yeah yeah thank you so much for that um Rachel did you have anything you wanted to add there well um yeah I guess it's just so interesting to think about like we all everyone who's talking right now is designing for different audience members um but we're all thinking about education on different levels so um I just I get stuck on this idea that I hear people you know say like well this has to be usable like this stuff is not approachable yet and for me it's like that's okay that's where we are right now but like if we don't spend time like really educating ourselves like the people who are making it and documenting our process and documenting our learnings then like we're not going to get to that like end point that everyone's visualizing where like everything is really easy for anyone to use um so uh like Germany was saying about like creating these visual Maps um creating these resources for people from different learning levels to onboard into the space I think that's just really important I really like that and I think this is something that we forget a lot that like we are also users and participants in this like all of these things were sort of the first participants we are hopefully building in the way that we hope other people will continue to build um and so to kind of build for ourselves I think is not selfish it's practice it's like that's the first iteration and we learn what that learning process is like by having to muddle through it as we go um so yeah I think to sort of just um as Rachel was saying like document those processes and really pay attention to what it's like for us to learn and for us to find that inspiration is really important and and like really valuable and we have a new friend yeah um super grateful to be here in the presence of everyone my name's Sean I'm working on a community-owned and operated proactive Healthcare System um so it's a Dao and this seemed super aligned because um in healthcare we think a lot about how we can co-create Health experiences for people especially people combating stuff like chronic diseases have to have some sort of lifestyle change and it's quite interesting the parallels between web 3 web we have to basically design for a participatory experience because if the people involved in the experience are not playing an active part in designing what they want to do in a sense autonomy in healthcare that helps people stick to whatever they're committing to do um and in web 3 I think what we want to design and what we want is to let people come into our product or a community and then figure out how they intentionally with their own values missions fit in the community community and we spend a lot of time like figuring out how that looks like for a healthcare doll and I'm curious to hear what your guys thoughts are on that kind of intentionality in community onboarding um I'll I'll just quickly say I think there's definitely thank you yeah there's there's a huge challenge with anything to do with Community which is you know what what is the what is the boundary of of community like what is the community what is the goal of the community what's the purpose why are people there you know what what is their like kind of um how to start what were the principles behind that I think um one of the challenges is always I think actually it's easier in some ways with a defined Mission like you're talking about to Rally people around something that in this case if if it's a you know group of people that all have sort of like some amount of like chronic illness like I think there's a shared sort of Kernel of of um similarity and like a feeling of kind of congeniality between people by definition um whereas you know with something like crypto I think like maybe just not to go too off track we mean many different things by it like lots of people in this room probably mean different things by it and so figuring out like what those uh like kernels are with those like core uh like principles are like like Germany said I think is like really important um as we think about like you know not necessarily even like I think boundaries make the wrong word but like what is the sort of like um inclusion criteria in the community and and that's important because you need to make sure that um you know if someone is participating that they're doing to you to your point like they're taking the responsibility doing the relevant work so it's a little bit of a tangent like it's not directly answering the question but like I think that's a really important like just Discovery process for any new community yeah yeah I I this is a conversation right so I don't think you missed any questions um no thank you Sean we're Sean Sean left no you're right there no it gave me um uh it added a DOT for me and like the the framework of going from like user to participation which is ownership uh that's in between and getting the sense of ownership um where and I don't know too much about like the healthcare industry and how that's like transitioning into um letter based um applications not sure what else to uh call it whatever it's fine um yeah Healthcare seems like a an interesting case because that's where ownership ties to like this very um intrinsic unique ownership over your own body like it makes it very tangible um and if we want to expand ownership to communities you first need that sense of ownership over the community that you are impacted by decisions that are made the same as your impacted by decisions that doctors would make over your own health care um so yeah just added that question in my mind at least on how do we first create ownership over the community before you um ask or try and incentivize people to participate in it um yeah starting to draw framework here awesome I just want to add a quick point that um with designing ZK stuff um I feel strongly that I don't want people to feel polarized from being participants in creating the like products that use zero knowledge like it sounds sciency or mathy and um I think we have this like obligation to make it approachable so that people like people know what they want why do we have to only follow former models of saying like we'll figure out what they need and design for them when we could try something different where people can like co-create the experiences that they want hi um my name is Manu and I'm one of the founders of doing good also found the member of API 3 Dao and a couple of other dials that I participate um I really like the conversation however I have a couple of things that is bothering me uh quite a lot um yeah most of us are here building tools as you said for ourselves but most of the people that are building the space are actually from very privileged countries and yeah basically those tools are being built are not being built for the people that actually need it um and that bothers me a lot also another thing that bothers me is that we are using a lot of terms or recreating these new terms like um let's say stable coins which are not really stable we know that they're not stable or we call them soulbound tokens what the is that you know um and yeah it's it's used very confusing for people that are outside of the space um it's not really inclusive when we are creating these new terms that cannot even be translated when we talk about staking I don't even know how to say that in Spanish um I don't even I need to explain it all the a time to people so I think that we are getting to a trap um when we are creating all of these new terms and so on um we're trying to onboard people and we're trying to import masses as we say but in reality we're just on boarding other gigs um and yeah it's to me it's it's really bad and we say that also we're creating a more decentralized space more inclusive space more reality is just a bunch of white people just doing that just talking between them um so you know are we really doing what we say that we're doing um are we really using their language and the tools that we have for inviting new people to join us or I would just you know try to be cool thank you for okay um really thank you for like bringing up some really challenging and like really important points um and there were a couple of different things there that I don't know maybe we can get to all of them but maybe let's start with the first one which was um yeah that we tend to be sort of insular like we're sort of Designing for the people that we see and um this community is you know we would like to think that it's Global but it's really difficult to figure out how to reach people and we end up designing in ways that like make sense in my brain but uh in a place that I've never been in a culture that I've never experienced in a language that I don't speak it can be really difficult to predict which also comes back to kind of what Rachel was saying that um there's a difference between trying to figure out what people want and then make it and then like this sort of hopefully interactive process of inviting people in to like figure out what it is they need and help them help themselves build it um and there's this problem of like literally knowing how to find those people um is is really challenging like I don't necessarily know where to look and to um try to come with like prescriptive Solutions or like you know go out with my binoculars looking for the person in the third world country that I'm supposed to design for um it's really difficult to um to kind of know where to start with that sometimes so I did want to ask like panelists and and our new friend um kind of how do you think about like we tend to when we do you know user research or um try to like measure the impact of the things that we make um we rely on kind of simplified like easy things like analytics um and like metrics that they're satisfying because you can count a number and think it's the right number and check a box but they're actually limiting and kind of useless and opaque and don't really particularly connect to reality um and they end up also like leading you to design for the people that are already there um and certainly not like leading you into new new areas or like inviting new people in so wondering how you think about like how to measure success or how to like get richer better feedback and have that be a more interactive process and just sort of open the borders of it so that more people are able to participate um and more people are able to kind of create hey guys I'm raghav I'm building a community-led fundraising platform I'll be not quadratic um but just to like on what you said I often think and it's something I was thinking earlier like for quadratic funding right mathematically speaking is not the most straightforward thing but you know like let's say in the third world today like in India I'm from India a lot of people don't have bank accounts right the goal is not to teach them how a bank works the goal is perhaps first let's get them bank account let's tell them okay this is why it's good for you you don't need to know the economics of it yet so I think a similar thing can happen here where like our first goal is as long as you can get the service that we need let's get that to them and over time as that leads to whatever Prosperity we hope for then we can reach a point where we can have education around those things if we just keep waiting for education and just for that we don't provide them what we can provide them today I think that would be a misstep also just to oh yeah but yeah no I think that's like my biggest um you know I think learning from the last few years is um that like you need politics to be like um what's the word so like pre-figurative like they need to like basically like you need to like take action towards the thing that you want to see in the world in some way I think crypto does that by definition like we just build things we like they sometimes don't work you know at all um sometimes they work kind of okay but they're kind of janky and then hopefully sometimes they work really well and like are sustainable for like long term I think the biggest challenge I see aside from dropping my phone apparently is that we really don't have a you know we talk we're talking here about like participants but we don't have a really good way to do that globally as author mentioned and I think that's still a missing Point here we're still doing better than like you know meta or something like that we're like you're literally just in a room and like Silicon Valley like designing for a community that's Global like as if that's going to just magically work for everyone um I think there's more like local first principles in thinking here um but we still don't have that really broad Global participation I think it's one of the reasons that like you know we sort of like as a community need to be having more conferences in places like Bogota to like participate more with local communities um we probably are not doing that enough but I'm hopeful that we're like getting you know in the right direction there quick response to that because honestly I I do think there's a lot that we can learn from traditional companies um in this area of how do you design for local communities um even being at a conference I'm not sure how many people actually go outside of the venue to explore um personally big proponent of field field research a trip to Venezuela was most insightful in my last five years in crypto um yeah just to kind of make the point I think there's a lot that we can learn from traditional companies in how do we um how do we study and work with local communities there is a reason that some of these companies are so successful to the extent that we believe it's detrimental because there are some things that I managed to do really well and understanding uh needs on the ground in local communities is is definitely one of those things dream job um maybe to Riff on that a little bit one of the challenges I found in trying to get more on the ground experiences and insights and connecting to communities to work and design alongside has been that it requires a certain degree of openness in what we're building because you go on like you land you put your feet on the ground and you're like oh my God this is never going to work but you've already spent six months like developing for something that's then not going to work um and so that that open mindset plus the funding um to that like uncertainty of what the outcome will be um is I think something that as a community we can all contribute to um how not sure maybe there's someone here as a better answer the question that I actually came to ask so we speak about obviously ownership and subserverity and stuff and that obviously comes at a cost of like fine there's a lot more finality of action in the blockchain right once you sign something you sign it so do you think the future of these apps or anything that we build in this new internet is more about communicating to people that your mistakes or your mistakes and that's okay or is it more about making sure systems are sort of they have the scope for mistakes which can write be from simple steps like and are you sure pop-up box all the way to maybe some kind of like magical reversible transactions on chain I don't know does anyone have a response to that I mean it's it's a great question right and it's sort of the opposite of um or it could be the opposite of the thing that I said at the very beginning about sort of putting like bumpers on everything so that you just can't screw up even if you wanted to um and there is this really interesting dynamic between trying to give people choices and then not sort of putting people in danger by um just like throwing them into a snake pit without even telling them what a snake is first like that you have to give people the tools to not make those horrific mistakes um but also um not do that in a way that limits them from making like all of the choices that you would want them to have um I know you hello I didn't know when the session was ending so I was going to chill at the end but I just wanted I just wanted to thank you guys for the conversation but I think and in that regard as far as like how do we create ecosystems where people are more able to make mistakes Etc I think a lot of it has to do with Progressive disclosure people getting used to some of this technology as they get aware of what's really happening on the front end on the back end and on the actual protocol level so just kind of walking them through that focus of like okay this is this is some sort of hand-holded guided functionalities of how you actually get into this ecosystem I think there's a lot of Education communication around language all those things that you guys have already kind of highlighted that will lead us to that but it is a long journey like people need to come and play with this some of this stuff and we don't have the opportunity or test Nets or all these resources where people can experiment with some of this stuff and not have that risk factor associated with it so I think gaming and all these other mechanisms of like pull apps Etc provide you that opportunity to interface with this technology and learn a little bit more but we need more use cases we need more creative thinking on some of this functionality for people to actually using it that we do we have to wrap up now yeah I want to thank all of you and also was brave enough to come up here and join us you guys brought a lot of really good points and good questions um so yeah thank you for that and I wanted to end on another exact Mandeville quote if I could just there we go um so and I think Achilles actually wrapped this up rather nicely for me to build whatever you're building for everyone we must expect and empower the best from anyone so thank you everybody let's go out and do do that