Degen incentives for Regen outcomes

[Music] nice Hello friends I'm uh super excited to share this uh panel with you all um maybe we can quickly start with a round of intros um I'm niiko Gallardo uh one of the contributors of otoda we're building Lotto pgf um protocol to incentivize uh funding of public goods with lotteries and yeah and some other exciting uh Capital formation mechanisms for public goods nice I'm Griff green uh founded gith dap node and also working on some really cool projects like pairwise which just launched liquid democracy in the optimism space uh quadratic the quadratic accelerator which is launching bonding curves for projects in uh polygon and also uh soon will be the infrastructure for geres and gith and also uh unicorn. eth which is a membership infrastructure that makes onboarding to web 3 simple and safe and I'll throw it over to James yeah thanks uh I'm James Kar I'm the head head of community octant um octant is a public goods funding platform that is using the uh staking rewards from a really large e treasury from Golem if there's any ogs in the crowd that remember Golem from way back when um so we we Stak a little over 100,000 eth and we are using those staking rewards to run Grant rounds every 90 days uh funding public goods and our users um yeah I think it's good hi I'm I'm Lauren loose and I am a product manager at gith um Griff already mentioned gith but gith is a crypto donation platform um that we're doing all kinds of fun experimentations in kind of making donating better and also making public goods funding better so like we have a a raffle where if you donate to public goods projects you have an opportunity to win a raffle and um our long-term mission is ultimately to make it possible for public goods projects to have like regenerative funding to have uh sustainable revenue streams um through tokenization and um and just all the crazy stuff we're building in web 3 awesome um to set the stage a little bit I uh um we recently co-wrote uh Manifesto they call it the Deens regions Manifesto It's like a three paragraphs but I don't really want to read it all like we have some highlights just to um give you a little bit of an idea of what we want to talk about here um so the main points of the Deens regions Manifesto is we believe in Dean's ability to discover new projects and spread the word we believe in Region's ability to align players towards projects that solve systemic problem problems we believe dents and regions together can multiply the power of coordination mechanisms and public goods so to um yeah give a little bit of context I think we've got you know through through the past years I guess there was a lot of talk about the uh Deion to region Pipeline and uh I think it's been like very productive like we've seen a lot of amazing projects being built thanks to that um GTH octant G coin like we can we can name a few um but I think it's now maybe time to explore a little bit more our Dent side and like try to incorporate those uh digent mechanisms that we know are very successful for you know getting uh retail involved getting um a lot of activity and eventually also a lot of funding for for public goods so I know you all uh recently did some experiments in that direction with uh the public goods sweep Stakes with a new uh givebacks B2 um raffle so maybe why don't we start with uh you guys recapping a little bit uh how that all went Lauren you want to start oh sure I can talk about the givebacks VT raffle so um if you guys aren't familiar with gith I think many people are but if you're not familiar with gith uh since we launched our give token and our give economy we started this program of effectively rewarding donors who give to public goods projects we wanted to sort of like like incentivize donations or actually just give something back to donors to start mentally changing this Paradigm that donating or supporting public goods needs to come with an element of sacrifice so this was the givebacks program it was um we had a a team of people who were checking into projects and verifying that they were public goods and that they were providing a free non-excludable service um and then so that pro project would become givebacks eligible and then donors who gave to those projects would get give tokens in proportion to their donations so we ran this program like this for um since 2020 until until now where it's kind of like evolving into the V2 version because um what we found is that like givebacks was effective for kind of like retaining the current audience it was really it was nice for project owners to tell their communities to to donate to them they they'd get a little bit of something back it was sort of like a small donation subsidy um but um but we wanted to make it so that we could attract a broader community of donors and and more donors who are who are like coming to the platform for this opportunity so like I mean we've been seeing a lot of great experimentation in the space like with lotto pgf and with the regen token of like experimenting with this like let's attract the Deens how do we attract the Deens to ultimately be fueling funding into public goods um so um we we evolved the givebacks program to and we did a little experiment with it that we ran it over three months um where uh five of the donations would win like up to we had a 500,000 give token prize pool and it was split among like five um so five donations could win like up to the max the max prize was like 250,000 gift tokens so one donation would win that like big prize pull and so you could donate just a little bit and actually get a lot more back um for your donation and it's sort of this like kind of like opportunity thing and we actually saw that I mean it's it's interesting like it's it's hard to know exactly like um there's a lot of factors that cause people to donate um at at different times but during the the period of time that we were running the raffle we actually saw like the biggest donation rounds uh that we had seen before we saw some massive donations coming in um we saw a lot of people just increasing Their donation amount because previously the give backs program you could donate any amount and get some amount back but then we were like okay to enter the raffle you needed to donate at least $5 to a project so like the the amount of donations people just started like bumping up the the amount that they were doing so like I could donate $1 I could donate $5 so we saw like just larger amounts going in higher donations and ultimately more funding going to public goods projects and I think that I mean I think that this is really interesting it's kind of like this like fun mechanism it's this like kind of raffle sort of thing um that like kind of rallies people because it's like oh I could actually win with that and how are you winning well basically by donating and supporting public goods which is kind of in and of itself sort of an altruistic action so it's this merging of the the the DJ I could win I could win big and and the like I'm supporting public goods and I care about the impact I'm making on the world nice yeah uh we we did something similar and thanks to big help uh to to Nico and the team they had actually built uh a large part of this uh for Octon so we recently ran a uh sweep Stakes essentially like a raffle as well where um if you donated to public goods you were entered in to win potentially a massive prize the grand prize winner was 200,000 glm so pretty substantial winnings um and we saw same thing what you said we we definitely saw like an increase in activity uh we definitely saw people who were um donating more of their rewards uh with an octant which you know was definitely something that I think we can build upon um I think the one thing that we maybe failed in was getting the word out to like those broader communities within like the dgen space um it it created a lot of activ activity within our community so it's it's definitely something that I think you know people are very interested in participating in but um in terms of you know tapping into this much larger Community within the web3 ecosystem that is more profit motivated um that that's definitely something that I think we we need to do a much better job in in in future rounds but overall yeah we're really happy with it I think lotteries sweep Stakes Raffles are really really uh powerful tool to start to um bring the The Profit motivated folks that are um um you know looking for opportunities from that regard and and channeling that energy towards uh you know positive outcomes for the ecosystem yeah I think it's quite hard to get dents to participate in this but you know I think this is a great start um I mean there's definitely a lot of incentives that that come there to get that going so you know it's about now it's what what you say it's about distribution right like how do we get into the the more Dent channels um and um yeah I think like what you guys have done and like what we're also doing a lot of pgf also comes like throughout history like uh things like the Great Wall of China or like uh ancient city of Rome uh reparations um they were funded with lotteries even like Harvard and and Yale like a lot of the early us infrastructure were funded with with lottery so you know we're not really Reinventing the wheel or or doing anything new here you know like we're just embracing I guess human nature to you know like this um a little bit of greed into channeling to something good right like that is has a positive Inc impact um yeah yeah I was going to say I mean if people are already putting in tens if not hundreds of thousands of dollars into you know frog coins channeling that into something good I think is like you know a really you know positive outcome that that we should be focusing on yeah absolutely and I think another experiment that I would love to touch on was and you mentioned it briefly is the region token on on farcaster um I think this was also very interesting experiment in like aligning incentives like aligning D incentives towards some something a little bit more region um to give you a little bit of context um last year probably like around a year ago this Deen token popped up on farcaster that was rewarding people who um was active in the Deen Channel um there and uh it was an airdrop and you know like a lot of the early people on farcaster were very happy with it and it just you know early this year like it it pumped and it it went viral and a lot and um this team came up with this region token that was kind of like a similar concept but to get a region activity going on farcaster um yeah just trying to meme region into existence the same way like d happened on foraster and um what they did was incentivizing activity in this more region protocols like uh gitcoin GTH uh and a few others and uh I think it was quite successful like I remember when we were talking like the GTH donations were like off the roof uh thank to you know like that incentive so do do you want to touch that yeah it's we do all these qf rounds right the quadratic funding rounds and most of the time we get around the matching pool is like 80% of the donations sorry we get donations that equate to around 80% of the matching pool but when we had the incentives from the region tokens it was like I don't know 120% or something like that so you could say it effectively increased donations about 50% and a lot of people who were donating were new and they were just donating for their airdrop you know and I I think in general this uh this opportunity of chasing unknown gains is uh very addicting very interesting to people and uh making things fun is the best way to fund public goods you know make it make it entertaining a lot more people participate in the state lotteries right like in the US uh the the US has a monopoly over most of the lottery systems and those mostly go to public uh funding public schools and a lot more people participate in the lottery than donate to nonprofits but yet it funds Public Schools right so it's just simple you got to we we need to be aware of like human nature and what people like to do and lean towards it yeah I think it's really interesting to see how so many people get addicted to their phones and social media because it's just like dopamine hit they say actually not even to look at your phone first thing in the morning cuz it's too much dopamine right away and it'll like mess with your overall neurology and and lead to longer term kind of brain problems but anyway so people are always chasing dopamine and I think that like um the the giving selflessly isn't as much of a dopamine hit as just like this like opportunity to win even if you don't necessarily get anything I feel like the opportunity to win something is something people are constantly chasing or just even this like fun gameification thing with the with the regen token and the impact on donations that were happening quadratic funding round on giveth the region token wasn't launched yet it was points it was like points and leaderboards and everybody wanted to rise to the top of the leaderboard and post it on Twitter and be like look at what of a regen I am I have so many regen points which is just so cool like I mean it's so cool because it creates this like cultural thing it's like kind of like you know flaunting peacocking ego and it's just kind of like it's something that people really inherently want that I think is is more motivating and and more more driving than kind of like giving selflessly you know and and it turns things into a win-win right and I think that's the key like dun incentives for region outcomes it's like region outcomes we just want value to be created for society right but unfortunately most of the time when people are creating value for Society at large it's a win lose game right there's no upside for the people creating value uh whether it's a nonprofit you know you don't have shares in a nonprofit right you just you're just working tirelessly for society or uh you know yeah all the all this uh all of public goods work it's just too often caught up in donations and and sacrifice but if you can just put in some kind of potential to make a profit you know that it that you can justify it to yourself that you're not just sacrificing you know you're actually participating in something that could even be better for you than if you don't you know that's the key and I actually think there's just a lot of opportunity in crypto itself to make that not not have to be a gamble make that be you know if we can turn my dream is to turn nonprofits into the same funding model as Tech startups if you invest in a hundred of them two of them could become unicorns and it'll pay off you know and I think that's the that's when we get to the real djn incentives for region outcomes is when we contempla a way for a community that is providing value to you know capture that value in their own economy do you guys want to touch a little bit on uh qak and like the augmented bonding CS because I think this goes like right down that alley right like how can we yeah pretty much make public goods kind of like a profitable business or like something like that right and people can sort of speculate on that as well a little bit yeah sure I I can dive into that so it's you know the dream of uh what I've been working on since like 2016 basically is like how do we allow nonprofits to actually tokenize the value that they create and token you know basically create shares for nonprofits you know uh of of A Sort or something that rhymes with it and you know these kinds of organizations are not going to be able to get a100 million market cap and do an airdrop that's not going to happen if a nonprofit wants to launch a token they're going to be small cap you know and uh the solution for this is bonding curves bonding curves really solve the problem of liquidity in a small with for a small market cap token and uh so we're we've been iterating and iterating on this methodology of how do we launch these things and we finally found a really nice method that basically is like quadratic funding with bonding curves but instead of uh donating well so first we get grants from an ecosystem uh for giveth for example we're going to give we're going to launch cves for nonprofits and we're going to give uh we're going to have a competition an application process where people apply to uh launch their own bonding curve for their public good and then we're going to give them let's say you know some amount of money to bootstrap the liquidity for their token then there's these followup funding rounds on a regular basis that are like quadratic funding which I assume most people here are familiar with and in that in that quadratic funding round though instead of donating to the project you're actually sending money to support this project and getting tokens in return so now you have the D gen incentives or regen outcomes now the trick here though that's really crazy is that all of these tokens are locked at first because it's really important for bonding curves to have a lockup period uh because they're under collateralized anyway I don't want to get too technical with it the main point is that uh the matching pool instead of being distributed to the projects it actually it turns into the first liquidity on the market to start supporting these projects uh in with a liquid token and what's really cool here is that because all the other tokens are locked and there's no other tokens in the supply after this first qac round that's what we call the the quadratic funding es round uh in this process those that price cannot go down you know because there's no tokens that can be sold there's just a liquidity pool that enters the market for a public project and the price can't go down what will the price do I don't know you know uh but it won't go down so because there's no tokens to be sold and this is the kind of fun games that we can do to actually bootstrap uh these things and just to put a little more context you know public goods nonprofits create value my favorite example is like a river if you have a a dirty River that is polluted all the land owners along the side of that River have lower land value than if it was clean there is a clear incentive for those land owners to coordinate around cleaning this River if an entrepreneur could come in and say hey land owners I can clean this River I have this cool way of doing it let's get some money together let's make it happen they have all the incentive in the world to make that happen they just need some upside right and if this guy this entrepreneur cleans this River successfully he can go with his token economy to the next River over and also clean that River and that River and he can give those first land owners huge upside in his in his project we just need to templatized public goods to society it doesn't have to happen from governments it can happen from entrepreneurs we just need to make it possible we need to find the the methodologies and I think the best opportunity is like the these kind of micro economies yeah and I think we're kind of used to like these things being provided by the government and then you know like because of the size and like the inefficiencies of the government then these things become even like um they don't make any profit like they actually make losses but I think if we distribute this power to people you know like that hey we as the beneficiaries of all these public goods can also have skin in the game let's say and you know um have potential upside on them then I think we all pretty much align incentives for um making all these public goods you know profitable but profitable in the sense that they they just create a lot of value um for for the people involved and this value is uh well actually profitable like in comparison to what governments make it you know make losses I think we can get the this um yeah just this upside for people can U can become a lot more interesting and U get these um incentives more in the direction of well worldwide public goods right like we can get digital public we can I think we're starting here with digital public goods but eventually we can use these Technologies to do more localized stuff and then get the get people to become profitable or make Revenue in in these localized economies as well with the same tools that we use today like just making governmental processes more efficient let's say um yeah super super excited about that yeah I that's really exciting man I'm really excited to see how how that all unfolds and you're talking about aligning incentives and um you can't be more spoton with that it's something that we're trying to do with Octon as well um with Octon the the uh the first stage of this we've only been around for a little over a year and um this is essentially like a proof of concept where if you have a sustainable source of yield and a token um will your community be interested in participating in in funding projects that are important to them and I think we've proved that this is is a yes um now the question is how how can we start to scale this far beyond um what we're currently doing and so um we've also been thinking long and hard about um bring bringing what we're doing with octant to other major ecosystem players across uh across the ecosystem which is really exciting so there's a lot of big Dow treasuries out there there's a lot of you know uh defi protocols uh me capture places that are generating a lot of yield that um have an opportunity to do what O's doing essentially um giving their Community the ability to lock a token into a contract earn yield and then decide where they want that yield to go um but then also seeing how can we bring the entire ecosystem together to fund a sustainability pool so that broad-based ethereum public goods that each of these entities feel are important are sustainably fun funded for the future and I think that's how you you really start to bring everybody together and and you know give ethereum that leg up and an advantage to where you know protocol Guild and some of these other projects that are providing massive value to the ecosystem but are still having problems funding themselves I I think that's how you really solve that problem one other thing I I think um to add to that as well is um a lot of Grant rounds that I see right now and Octon is no different is that um the the rounds are primarily like a VI based round you know people are shielding their projects and um if if you you know like what the project is doing or if you have a relationship with them you're going and donating to them on gitcoin on Octon on gith um what we would like to see is how can you start to spin a flywheel for um incentivizing folks to fund impact and so you can think of it in a way where if you are prospectively funding something and maybe you get a hypers or you get an nft for that donation and then there's some retroactive model on the in the uh back into that where that project is getting funded retroactively you can actually start to spin that flywheel where um the prospective funders are actually getting a little bit of a dividend or a kickback from that initial funding so if you're um incentivizing that flywheel so that you're actually trying to uh fund what you think is going to be impactful rather than just a Vibes based approach I think that's really how we can start to drive more incentives towards funding what ultimately is creating value yeah and um I think you know we've touched on so many potential you know mechan is Ms that are like a little bit Dean and like uh bring up really uh impactful uh outcomes or region outcomes um I wanted to explore a little bit more what other uh projects or or mechanisms come to mind I have a bit of a cheat [ __ ] here uh to to have a list because there's actually a lot and um I think it really depends how we Define you know like d a little bit uh for example I don't know I would think octant it's self without the sweep Stakes also fits there right because as you said like you're generating yield and um this yield gets distributed to the glm Token holders but at the same time there's the opportunity and there is the funding of public goods through octant right so and and specula on the glm token which is like considering how much treasury there is there and and these things it's a pretty it's pretty interesting speculation especially when the market is pumping so it's like you can buy an alt coin and also like fund public goods it's kind of pretty it's pretty cool and this one that is kind of like I don't want to say pecked but like very close to ethereum right because like the the entire Narrative of oon is like that they have the treasury on eth and then like staked and that generates yield but also you know like the price appreciation of of eth um just creates this speculative value I think we're pretty confident in E yeah yeah and the other thing that's really cool about Octon is that you have the opportunity to public goods or also just keep the yield of your proportion like you proportionally stake some glm and then you can just keep whatever rewards that you're you're allocated there I mean it has a greater impact if you fund public goods but it also has this like mechanism of just attracting Deion who just want to earn a yield and pocket it but it has also this whole system where you're like oh well maybe instead of pocketing I could give a little bit here so I think it's also just this pipeline for like drawing indion and then like holding their hand towards public goods I mean that's exactly what the sweep snakes was for is just to to try to drive that more but yeah yall are spot on and another project that I really like that I would love to explore if you guys think it's Dent enough because it's definitely region is like uh USD glow you know USD glow is a stable coin that um instead of generating yield uh for itself it donates this yield to uh nonprofits basically uh so you know like I think that on itself is maybe like not that much digent Beyond like bit being a stable coin but I think it has the potential to be used as a um d right like if people start trading with USD glow instead of like usdt or or usdc then they would be trading and like using this you know speculative mindset for and doing something good at the same time what what do you think yeah I was going to say I think what they've done so far is great and U their market cap has been growing they've been driving some great Partnerships but I think the the thing and what we're talking about here is they're they're missing that incentive uh if you know Circle and uh tether they're dominating right now and it's not close so I think you would you'd really start to drive an interesting narrative if there was some incentive to hold USD Globe Beyond just funding public goods we at Octon have found that just funding public goods just by itself is is not that strong of a narrative uh to tap into to the much larger ecosystem that we're ultimately trying to make inroads with um this is why you've seen you know things like a public goods Network that L2 to fund public goods that you know was correctly attempted but it it's that incentive just isn't there public goods alone is just not the not the thing so so I I love what uh USD glow is doing but I think if they figure out like what that incentive is to to bring that the the broader ecosystem into um uh holding their their stable coin then they'll probably hit on something really big and I think the incentives can also be things Beyond just like even necessarily monetary incentives like when we were talking before about the regen token and the points and everybody donating because they wanted to get on the leaderboard it's it's it's an abstracted concept but I think that what what the real incentive there was was the sense of community so it's like like I mean we could also just think creatively around our public goods projects and token economies that we're creating is like how do we drive people because they feel a sense of belonging they feel part of something bigger and I mean I think it's also you know a lot of people come to Devcon and they're attracted here because of community and they feel like the ethereum community is so warm and welcoming and and you kind of come into it and you become part of it and then you just become a believer in in eth and you become a believer in all these public goods projects so it's also interesting to think about like other creative incentives that are just beyond APR yeah like uh marketing honestly like I would I saw I saw garm today at or not today but at the conference I don't know if he's in here but it'd be really interesting to see uh if they could more publicize those leaderboards of who does because we've seen actually a lot of success with uh our trying to fund our matching pools uh as like giveth as a almost like a k you know kol marketing is like really really popular in crypto and for a good reason it works you know like it's just what it is and uh we're always like please fund our matching pool please we'll we'll tell people about you you know but like fund public goods you know and that was kind of I mean I'm exaggerating a little bit but that was that was our primary way of directing the but then we kind of turned it around and we're like dude give it this one hell of a k okay let me tell you our follower count is like the the ratio is insane you should see our follower list you know and like like and then we and then we say and and honestly like there's no more authentic way to like get some good K marketing than doing something good give us $2,000 for our matching pool and we'll do the same [ __ ] that a k does you know we'll like you know tell about how great your project is and like you know how cool you are for donating to public goods but framing it like this that listen give us some of your marketing budget and we will donate it to public goods you know and that's way more impact ful it still has the same output but you're giving something non-monetary right and I think glow dollar could do the same and they kind of do right they're like hey Dow treasuries just hold some glow and we'll tell the world that you're great you know but if they leaned into the K side a little harder it might be more impactful yeah and we we can definitely attest to the great KO that uh giveth is because like one of the first experiments that we did with lot of pgf we uh co-sponsored that quadratic funding round and that was like pretty much the Kickstart of uh our presence on uh yeah on on the space so yeah thanks thanks for that like I would recommend everyone to to try it and I was actually thinking while you were talking this can be um even automated in some way through like a harburger tax or something like that right like where you you know if you don't if you bid enough then you can become part of this um billboard or something like that and then the money goes to to fund public goods and then maybe you guys had can do like the the marketing heavy lift but then there's like a big aspect of it that's um automated I don't know I think this is the dangerous stuff right cuz when you start getting really complicated things and like you you present it to someone and you're like listen we have this cool harburger tax thing let me tell you about it like even when I was talking about qak before I lost half the crowd you know like it's just not it's not really it doesn't really work uh keeping it simple is is the way and if you want to do cool harburger tax stuff in the background you can keep it in the background you know yeah I think we just need to abstract everything I'm kind of a nerd and so I get really excited about the tech that we're building and all the details and like why we've thought of something for everything and I want to explain all the details but it really doesn't work well um like you know we we built this product on giveth called give power where you stake your give tokens you earn a yield and then you can get give power it's a non-transferable ec20 that you can use to boost projects and it if affects where the projects are seen on the page in a very simple way of putting it so it's like in a quadratic funding round super competitive projects want to rise to the top you can boost them with give power but like when we were building it we're like okay but like you know to get give power you can lock your give tokens for longer and you got a multiplier and so people's give power mounts are going to be variable so we should represent this as a percentage of a total and so the I you know I made a bad choice where where it's like you boost the first project it's like 100% is used and then when you want to boost the next project you have to select a percentage from like a slider bar and it says the amount of give power but I feel like this is just so deeply confusing and what I should have done and what we're actually working on building now is like boost double boost triple boost like do you want a 1x boost or 2x boost and then I'll just do the math in the back end back end and not tell you about it and I feel like this is another way that we need to like we're trying to plan for Mass web 3 adoption and if we want to attract more people we need to move outside of like our super tech brain spaces and also our kind of like super altruistic spaces and make it accessible to Deens make it accessible to people who just like want play and have fun and use apps and swipe and click and boost and whatever um and because that will really start to fuel people and and if we can design clever systems where in the end it's making impact then we're winning yeah what you're describing is like essentially Unis swap or something like that right like you go you want to swap a token but behind the scenes there is all sorts of craziness going on and you would never know it unless you actually dig into the code um so just generally speaking I think that's what web 3 can really learn to do is just learning to meet especially the the much larger group of beginners that are going to be coming in over the next you know two to three years like meeting them where they are rather than just like blowing all this verbiage out at them that they have no idea what the hell we're talking about yeah digion just want simple stuff right like they just click click click click click boost double boost triple boost pump it hit the dopamine hits you know get it hard what what is this I'm thinking no I want dopamine yeah and um I wanted to touch a little bit on a topic that you uh that we talked before about like Community right like um how can we make like region um kind of like a cultural thing than like something that a community and I mean we already are but I think we can and and probably that's what the region token wants to achieve right like being this unifying sort of um asset that becomes the the membership to this community and like how can we make ourselves more more bullish on that because this is what meme coins do good right like they create memes they create culture they create you know align their members and uh they you know there's this talk about like the better meme coins are the ones that create sort of cult so you know how can we how can we achieve this with region and I think we there's so many cool projects in the region space that um and and I'm super excited to see like how we're all exploring like the more D side because I think that's the D side maybe what it brings is also like this cultural aspect of like you know shadowy or like a little bit more edgy which is like Fun For All humans I guess right so yeah I think regen has a bit of an uphill battle because there is a there's a like in the meme coin culture even no matter hard how hard vitalic says like meme coins for charity meme coins for charity meme coins for good like everyone's like uh no you know and it sucks like I don't know I I think I think the the main thing here is like you can do it like I think Maga the Tok like Donald Trump token was donating fat stacks to all sorts of cool projects but that wasn't the thing in the front you know it was Donald Trump's cartoon face right that was the thing in the front so you know the the having the regen side so overt it makes it more of an uphill battle you know uh so I don't know I I maybe we'll get to a point where regen like tokens have their moment it's like oh dude no this is the future but until people see that as some kind of value ad right now you know it's going to be an uphill battle cuz right now people actually see it as a value subtract yeah I think that's just like a problem with the way that we I mean this is like nonprofits nonprofit it's in the hor word nonprofit it's like it's it's just attracting people who like want to do good and it's this kind of like negative word like this like anti anti Comfort anti- Lambo that's like it's like we named it anti- Lambo yeah so I think that it's just like in the naming of things it's kind of problematic and so until we actually are able to like mentally shift people over to be realizing that you know public goods projects and regen projects also have the same possible upside it sort of has to be like obscured and and disguised under just like super fun pump pump pump this this is this is one of the things that for a couple years I was trying to make all my talks directed at this like fighting this idea because like you know the World spends $35 trillion a year on public goods 35 trillion that number is not even feasible in your mind this is how much governments spend on providing value to society uh and by the way they only collect 25 trillion in taxes so you know they're printing money hand over fist uh to fund public goods although not everyone sees them as public goods but there is a lot of money in our world directed towards solving these societal issues and if we can tap into creating profitable economic systems for entrepreneurs to solve those same problems dude it's going to be sick okay it it's a huge industry and and we just don't see it that way because governments dominate it and nonprofits are like a distant second and then there's nothing else just like Community groups you know so it's uh we we don't see the opportunity because it's but it's right in front of our face it's an experiment way yeah I it just one template that works and all of a sudden a whole new industry is created yeah it's just why experimentation in this space is so important right it's it's um yeah one one experiment away yeah related to what you said earlier like something meme coins right like something we want to experiment with uh lot of pgf potentially is um just how giving like meme coins a lottery and then almost in the background like these lotteries are actually funding public goods so people have like a bit of a Dean activity to do and then at the same time they're funding public goods similar to like how uh this Maga token was uh doing you know maybe that's the way you know like maybe like the region outcomes don't have to be like completely out there but if they're like omnipresent and uh it start they start to become the norm maybe that's even a better outcome right for for the entire um thing um we have five more minutes of of a panel um then we will go to Q&A so um yeah get your questions ready get your question get your questions ready and um I want to just like briefly go through this list to mention some of the um projects that I came up with that are a little bit Deion and region or so if you have some more ideas uh please drop them in the uh Q&A then we can also maybe touch on them um but I think some that we should not forget about is like C if you remember like the uh Olympus Fork that was this 33 meme that was like super high um apy and then they uh were um offsetting carbon with the with the yield that they made and stuff like that I think that's a uh important to mention here uh then we have um pump. science that was like uh this also kind of like pump that fun like meme coins that funded uh dii I think that was super interesting I think there were was this baby token I don't know if it came out of that but it's also kind of related it's like a meme coin trying to proliferate uh making babies uh and uh you know also related to to dii and fertility and like research in in that area of Health uh I think that's cool enough the mother daddy uh meme yeah um and uh there is also the um Nish was a super interesting project from a hackathon that I heard about that was using kind of like dusted meme coins uh to fund public goods we' love to see that come to life as well um then there is I think like another interesting topic is like nfts you know like there is a public nouns for example that they do an auction every three days I think uh of a of a noun and uh the the treasury is committed to fund public goods and to be honest like nouns itself which has a huge treasury also focuses on funding a lot of public goods you know and yeah they amass large amount of money purple Dow as well purple Dow yeah yeah and just jumping on that really quick like you know we were I was looking into I was talking with Griff and making a presentation and I was like what are some public goods projects that have successful tokens and and most of them are actually governance projects like most of them are just governance tokens and so it's also really funny that I feel like in the web three space we're like oh Dows are sticky governance is terrible nobody wants governance but actually I feel like when the treasury is lucrative enough then the governance has a lot of value and so like that's why things like nouns and public nouns works it's like you know it's just you know you you want to buy the nft the funding goes into the the pot and then you use that nft to govern where the funding goes it's also fun they have a lot of fun at nouns right so and this the community aspect that we were talking belonging right when you become part of a group and you feel a sense of belonging you know that's valuable yeah but that's like the the Dow thing it's like I have a governance token I'm part of this community I am like I belong here and also there's like the I direct this and I have power kind of thing so I think that we really underestimate the power of governance tokens yeah I I think so I I would love to see more experiments with this and maybe like more Dean experiments into governance which is like futter key for example I think Taps a little bit into that those more like Dent things so yeah I think that's a also very interesting to explore I think we can start uh answering some questions I see um the the top one here is some regions have subconscious beliefs about money itself being something corrupted how can we heal our relationship with money this I love this question it's so good James I see you like right so money is a tool it's it's it's not good or bad it's just how people are using it right so I think um choosing what your perspective is on how you're focusing on money and recognizing that there are a lot of really great things that we can do not only in this space but just you know globally if we are choosing to use our resources in a wise way um the the the people that I think are not that that aren't using money as an effective tool are just you know coming from a scarcity mindset and are ultimately acting out from that but um you don't have to live from that perspective so just understanding you know what what the tool is and and you know how how you want to interact with that tools is really important yeah I I I love what you were just saying I was thinking thinking something similar what one thing I one perspective I like to take is thinking about money as a game um it's like the money game you know it's this points game and we're kind of just like playing this game and if you can kind of like abstract it in this that way and decide how you want to play the game or when you want to exit the game whether you're you're like I'm not going to let money rule my relationships or I'm not going to you know let money kind of like change my perspectives around things it's I think it can also it also has to sort of be a bit of like an introspective self-searching process about your relationship with money and and thinking of tool like you know ways of abstracting that like money is a game it's this point system that we created you know I can put as much into it as I want or not yeah I love money as happiness points right you made a bunch of people happy so you got some money you know uh that's what it should be unfortunately like you can't make PE you don't get money for providing societal value you know so you know you get money for extracting right A lot of the time so it doesn't always work and that's the that's the problem is that our money system is broken it's not happiness points it should be but if you are minting public nouns you know and you're funding public goods with it I mean I know public nouns probably most people wouldn't consider it money but you're issuing a token you know and that's making people happy so it's kind of cool yeah I totally agree with what you say like something that completely changed my relationship with money uh was like understanding that what James said similar like money is just like a communication of value right like a tool to communicate value and it's if you if you look at his the history of money then you start to understand how also natural it came about right like people were trying to make the value they were providing to society more liquid so that they could you know exchange it or for something to the for the future so that they you know don't get stuck there so once you start yeah like just uh the the tip here would be look at the history of money and then you will have a great realizations I think um let's see the next question what are the potential roadblocks for making uh I guess this is qak uh successful yeah I assume it's qak you know the the the biggest thing that sucks about qak is that people are putting in money and minting tokens and we live in a world today that's very controlled by governments and legal [ __ ] so I have we have to do kyc basically but it's cool because we don't do kyc like none of the teams or us know our customer directly instead we're doing this zkid so people go to a third party service get an nft that can they can use to prove that they're not from you know North Korea or the United States of America you know uh because that's what we have to do which is so [ __ ] dumb it's crazy you put those two countries in the they're together though they're on the list those are the top two worrisome ones unfortunately you know I didn't make the list okay these are what the lawyers say they say got watch out for North Korea and the US because like those guys will get you you know so you know we have to we have to limit that and that just creates horrible user experience you know how horrible it is to have to put in your [ __ ] passport to something oh my God you know and then of course like half this panel can't even play so you know that's the biggest roadblock is these dumb laws that are preventing us from doing fun things but uh other than that honestly it's like a downhill uh race because the incentives are aligned for everyone projects get an easy token launch like coinless charges like 400k to launch a token that's what a friend of mine was offered from them to launch their token with coin list whereas here they're getting a grant that subsidizes them to launch a token the ecosystem instead of giving the Grant and just and watching their tokens dump on the market they actually get a token sync they put their grant money in their their liquid token in in polygon's case it's pull in giveth cases it's give right and that give locked in the bonding curve actually attracts more give and or more pull it creates token demand so ecosystems love it you know and the community in I mean the community usually they're either stuck doing nothing they have no say and how grants are given or anything or they have to vote on something and it's complex and scary and they don't know you know so uh it's a lot of work so it's really this magical winwin win uh so that's all downhill it's just the the legal friction yeah completely agree like for us as lot of pgf that's also like the biggest blocker so yeah regulation tough yeah would you like to jump in yeah yeah it's great to see questions flowing in uh you can also upload and press heart emoji um so for the I was going to say can we answer that last one before we head off or we are getting cut off right now oh yeah yeah yeah uh sure we can read uh how can we make sure that the region narrative is not used for personal gains by Bad actors can we make the whole flow of funds transparent and verifiable I mean I think this is kind of like a natural Char characteristic of ethereum right like it enables to have this completely transparent although I understand how some people might still use it and try to hide it somehow but you know I think just using smart contracts and like trying to be as much on chain as possible and of course this I guess becomes a little bit harder when you um yeah when you need to verify like the organizations that the money is Flowing to that becomes like a little bit harder and decentralize H centralized and does you know a point of trust that is uh harder to solve uh but you guys at uh both octant and GTH are solving that right so yeah I was going to say the other thing about um you know mitigating Bad actors is uh so social pressure Shame Shame people like if if you see people doing crappy stuff in the space that is honestly giving us a bad look it's like why so many people when you go and talk about crypto out in the real world like have a very negative world view like yeah Shame Shame people I think it's a very powerful tool and it's part of the power of community too it's like people want to be part of something they want to feel the sense of belonging so that kind of like you know exiling that happens on Twitter sometimes when something bad happens um I mean there there are there are like you still have to be careful of but you have to be careful in the crypto space anyway there are sometimes these like regen is tokens that pop up that are kind of scam meme coins I've seen a few of these they're like we're donating to charity and I'm like this seems really sketchy um so I mean I think you have to like individuals have to do their own research and then protocols need to ultimately build systems that are safe and onchain and you know verifiable so that we can kind of protect that and then like no matter like it's like no matter how hard you dejen into it it only funds public goods it's like design the system so that it's like the Bad actors are just like in there chasing their profit and that actually creates a positive benefit for the ecosystem yeah I think a good example of this is cluster map the cluster map algo for qf so the most quadratic funding rounds these days are actually run by a new algorithm called uh the C CM C thank you connection oriented cluster mapping there you go uh I just call it the cluster match algo uh and in so to game the system you have to donate to many projects right that's the best way to game the system yeah the way that it works is it basically clusters together donors with the same pattern so in qf you know the projects with the diverse Community like the most diverse community or the most donors generally would win would would benefit the most but like the way that cluster mapping works is that if like 10 people all donated to only one project in the round it basically they're like you guys are all the same you count as one you know you count as one person square root they square root all of those donations added together yeah exactly so it it like really mitigates kind of like it actually like what it does is it encourages people to go out there and like not only donate to the project they really want to benefit but like maybe a couple more so then you end up with this like really nice Democratic distribution of funds that becomes more even and more fair yeah it's really cool because it's like you do a bunch of work to onboard your community to qf and then you have to tell them hey like also donate to a few of your other favorite projects you know that's the Strategic way to play right that's how you gain the system and that's those are the kind of incentives that you need to put in place when you're it's like okay you want a civil attack donate to like five projects and that's the best way to sible aligning incentives Game Theory yeah um yeah and then for probably our last question can you go into more detail about Harbor attack so I think it means har harburger tax and I I'll be honest I'm a little skeptical of harburger tax I like to uh equate it to demage demage and inflation are basically the same thing Dem inflation is what all governments basically do right where you have a dollar and they just print more dollars and it makes your dollar worthless demage is the same mechanism but with different user experience where your Dollar's denomination goes down to 99 right and so you are suffering a little bit in your mind but it's the same outcome you know your dollar is worth 9 that's the same thing that happens Within inflation it's just it's still called a dollar right uh so that's demage versus inflation harburger tax is like instead of owning something you have to pay rent on it right so uh there's lots of cool hardw tax experiments where you buy something and then you also have to fuel it with a stream to the previous owner or like maybe a u the Creator or something right so there's a stream that's like taxing you for own owning it but if you see the all these n experiments all the ones that integrated Harbor attacks kind of failed whereas public nouns and nouns in general is kind of like the inflation version of Hardware tax where it's like okay every day we're going to Mint another nft and that's going to inflate the value of these nfts you're going to inflate away some of the value but you still have one nft you don't have to pay rent on it so I love Hardware attacks in theory it sounds really cool but in practice the user experience just like demage is not really appreciated okay thank you everyone thanks panel for our wonderful talk today um thank you thank you thanks thanks thank you can I quickly answer the last question it was uh how do I increase my luck in all these Raffles fun public goods don't donate more donate more donate more okay