Onboarding Institutions: Where We Are Today, and What Comes Next? - TOKEN2049 London 2022

hello everyone and welcome to a discussion on onboarding institutions where we are today and what comes next my name is Eva Lawrence I am the head of Amir for figment we are a complete staking solution provider for institutions um before we kick off let me introduce you to your Stellar panel Tim if you want to go first hello everybody what a week uh so I'm I run Europe for Middle East Africa for galaxy galaxy is a global regulated uh Diversified institutional financial services company we do sales and trading we do asset management we do Venture we do investment banking and we do mining uh Matthew Siegel head of uh digital assets research at vanak vanak is a family-owned business mutual fund and ETF sponsor about 60 billion in assets under management uh about one percent of that is in crypto so we have a lot of natural resources and gold mining exposure so we were quite attuned to bitcoin's potential disruption we've got 19 different strategies uh many in Europe passive etns that you can buy and then three actively manage funds in New York we're running our own nodes we have a nft community project and we have not uh blown up we're still standing here because of that very paranoid approach to counterparties and we can talk about that more later hi I'm Jazz mohideen I'm the CEO of laser digital laser digital is a nomura-backed digital asset company fully segregated focusing on three major verticals trading asset management and we see we're based out of Switzerland London and Dubai at this stage thank you hi my name is Antoni I'm CEO and co-founder of nickel digital we are a london-based FCA regulated hedge fund uh running a number of strategies the flagship being multi-manager Market neutral platform with 27 managers around the world running different sub strategies within a larger fund with sub-strategies including start ARP RV high frequency Market making different flavors of Arbitrage initially the firm was founded three and a half years ago my previous background I was with JPMorgan and Goldman before moving to crypto in 2019. thank you guys thank you so I started prepping for this panel at the weekend by Monday I'd crossed out a few bits here and hit there tepexed a bit taken a few pages out by Tuesday I'd put a lot of those pages in the bin and and then on Wednesday I just set the bin on fire so um I think that we are going to start off with looking at kind of how we've got to where we are today in terms of institutional onboarding but we are going to also spend a lot of time discussing uh the events of of the last few days so in terms of crypto adoption especially around institutions we've we've gone from everything from you know the Wild Wild West um you know magic internet money um blockchain not Bitcoin Bitcoin not blockchain the rise and fall of Bitcoin Maxes um gradually then suddenly um and it seemed like we had maybe reached some stability um and and then uh this week happened um but if we look at two weeks ago there was a report from Fidelity and and the figures showed that 58 of investors surveyed own digital assets 74 of institutional investors were planning to invest in digital assets and 81 um thought that digital assets should be part of an Investment Portfolio um I won't ask you if you think those figures are still true today but I will ask you what do you think we have been successful in achieving um in terms of onboarding Institutions to the digital asset space so far Tim I'll start with you sure well let's start with when Mike novograt stood up at token 2049 in Singapore he said do you guys not realize what's going on back there it's like a bull market Vibe out there it's insane whose idea was it to put a Rolls-Royce and a Lamborghini and a Bentley out front like extra tone deaf my friends uh but institutional adoption looks is an interesting when the the lunar Terror situation happened we were quite surprised and we focus on institutions we're we're not um no retail at all we tend to focus on top down you know we work with some of the biggest bank Sovereign wealth funds asset managers in in the world and uh we actually very counter-intuitively had a big influx of onboarding requests right after Terra Luna I'll be usually see what happens next week will we see the same reaction but let's put that to one side and we were a bit surprised we kind of thought that that point like we're all feeling now what might happen is there's going to be a pullback and we thought that was going to happen back then and actually there wasn't we we basically people saw it as a better entry point and so we're still working through that onboarding backlog which which is worthy of notes it's sort of perhaps counter-intuitive now what what we get told by those institutional clients is and by the way sort of nine months ago we got a lot of flack for our lending standards being too too conservative and for our documentation being too onerous now we get a lot of we get plaudits for the same reasons now everybody thinks we're great because we have a you know conservative lending standards and because institutions want certainty they want documentation they want legal certainty and so that's what we give them and and and that's I think what we've evolved to this year so aside everything this week the quality the institutional quality there's just is this a non-negotiable for large pools of institutional Capital to engage in this space has increased to the point where we trade with Goldman Sachs right we trade derivatives with Goldman Sachs like to get through that onboarding trust us is not easy and I think that's that's a good barometer I think of of the of how we've evolved yeah yeah the questions about progress I think the progress that's been made is institutional comfort with self-custody uh the amount of man hours in our organization spent on onboarding fire blocks is not trivial and that expertise doesn't go away uh and it was that comfort that enabled us to essentially pull all our funds off FTX the minute that coindesk article hit and sold our ftt at 18 and just re-trenched into self-custody and I if I think there's there's three broad takeaways of of what may change post this event um it is a higher emphasis on self-custody you know number two regulation of centralized exchanges proof of reserves like what what Kraken is doing and we heard from the panel before lunch uh additional exchanges are doing that as well and then just more clear uh disclosure and separation of control between exchanges and their Affiliated market makers and we know that the U.S lawmakers are looking into that with regards to binance that's been in the media so there will be clearer lines but the progress is that you know those of us who have spent the time now hold our own keys yeah on our side there's no questions our progress as is a result of institutionalization we come we are fully backed by a significant financial institution at the same time uh they felt as well to have a segregated entity so that you don't have a contamination or risk that's a better way to handle it because it requires certain different sets of governance although you're extrapolating from the existing Set uh the way I think more and more institutions are starting to look at the digital asset like it's not autonomous it sits within the traditional asset class if anything it completes it with that mindset actually more and more actually traditional governance whether it's kyc and all that getting extrapolated and more and more institutions getting comfortable to Tim's Point actually it's correct through the correction as well what you're seeing is some of the bottlenecks are getting highlighted if anything it actually forces to bring more institutional standard even even if you're not an institution it needs to be institutional like offering bring the agility of of course Innovation what the last abroad but then also you need rigorous governance also actually fairly deep understanding the risk and so forth so I think with that you're seeing in the first wave of it you're seeing more recently institutions are more happy to take exposure to digital asset through Investments you're seeing all the way from Sovereign wealth funds to large institutions and then you know coming into the space of asset management could we have hybrid products with the traditional asset class I think that's the way institutions are going to approach because this this will not stand on its own if you're creating a product like Risk parity you will include to your portfolio digital asset because it may be a diversifier it also gets you exposure to technology and and digitization so um that's the way we I think whatever numbers were published by Fidelity recently those can be heavily discounted now right and the reason for that being over the last 48 hours we got a significant dent in credibility uh with uh institutional world because those who made this very cautious moves in crypto uh from the high level institutional investors including Ontario with FTX uh Quebec pension fund with Celsius and then subsequently have written this down to zero they will think twice when to re-enter this space and unfortunately it said sets a bad precedent so it will take time to cure and we'll need to clean this mess right yeah and whoever want to be driving sorry and and that leads me nicely to my next question I think we've kind of summarized we've we've had some education we've had some Mike's back we've had some education we've had some interest we've had governance around custody there have been some improvements but but as you rightly said there's been a huge dent in the last 24-48 hours uh and there's going to be cries of well there's a lack of transparency there's a lack of governance there's a lack of regulation in the crypto space um and what would you say is the the main area that those within the industry in particular in the institutional Focus crypto space need to focus on now to to right the ship as it were yeah I think uh uh risk management and transparency gonna be two biggest Awards in crypto right uh because you can even see how FTX build its relationship with copper copper as a custodian introduced a thing called a clear Loop the idea was that you don't have as a Trader to hold your assets on a given exchange you can keep them with the custodian whilst exchange accepts say your 50 million which is kept with the custodian as your margin for the trading and a given exchange FTX have subscribed to that but never implemented and now we know why because these guys were abusing our clients assets and they actually needed these assets to be at the exchange so this lack of transparency will be something which every single Trader any Institutional Investor is going to be extremely sensitive going forward actually forcing Institute exchanges as many other players in the market to kind of adhere to the highest transparency standards to me this is a welcome Direction uh it's going to just going to be painful getting out of this hole we ended up and I think it's going to require some large balance sheets that we haven't seen to become newly active in the space because while the technology works you know self-custody and moving assets back and forth from the exchange and if you're very Nimble you can avoid the worst case but if you're really trading you want to settle at the end of the day with a counterparty that has a big balance sheet and where you're facing an entity that's ideally regulated in the same jurisdiction that you are and the number of those are just dwindling right so my personal view is that it's going to come at The Sovereign level right we know that the Saudis are mining Bitcoin right they're having some problems with the high temperatures and getting those chips to work at 140 degrees but it's going to have to be a sovereign entity that comes in buys Bitcoin mines Bitcoin sets a floor they are the biggest institutions that we can imagine right as governments uh and you know if there's a if there's a wild card in the next six months that may turn this around that would be my my bet yep judge do you have anything yes on our side as well I think there's no question uh the transparency is key but what highlights out of all these recent events and kind of over the year is that credit risk is a very key component it's been taken lightly whether it's stratified C5 D5 credit discrete risk it doesn't go away and that requires of course transparency that requires also some regulatory standard in terms of uh you know whether it's a Digital Shadow banking credit system or somewhere people can trust because individuals don't make up institution there has to be you know deep level of governance and also you need to have standardization and regulation needs to come to clarify those standardization lack of standardization is also creating these Arbitrage within the ecosystem uh so yeah there's no question you need to have better risk management kind of rigor needs to come more institutions need to come in as well take some ownership of it exactly to the point and that's going to come through the ecosystem give credibility and solutions like you can't do trades on a bilateral basis you need to have Clearinghouse type of solution which you saw out of the GFC uh so you need Solutions around to take out some systemic risk the problem is yeah way too much of systemic still exists with few institutions you know I think you said the magic word Jazz it's it's the t words and I think it's coming back because we all forgot it for a while it's just trust it's just about trust and the reason the the The Current financial system is built the way it's built is to afford the right level of trust for all the actors within it from consumers to institutions to Sovereign and yeah when you think about Luna Terror that was really a crypto native problem right that was really you know and we all you know we all we all saw what happened there but it was kind of contained within our little world this one SBF has just gone and you know this is temasek this is Quebec this is like some of the biggest I mean temasek's one of the biggest Sovereign wealth funds in the world they were Hoodwinked let's call a spade a spade they were doing stuff behind the scenes between Alameda and FTX that any any rational investor if they'd seen it would not have put money into it yeah so blue trust as you said earlier which is actually spotting because I'm going to steal it go ahead he's like that kid who does something in class and everybody has to do extra homework as a result like that's what just happened so we're all basically going to have to smarten up grow up and yeah trust and transparency and risk management and all that stuff but now it's gotten to a new level and chairman Gensler was on the CNBC just a while ago and he's already doing he's already poking holes in it he's like well I told you so so all the stuff that he stood for that's going into the legislation undermines the OCC yeah this stuff is going to keep coming up and it's really annoying if you can can't tell I'm annoyed as Novo said yesterday he's angry but that's the reality that we're we're faced now yeah and and this is kind of almost what the The Regulators have been waiting for you for that I told you you so moment to kind of point the fingers back on the industry and say you know I Told You So this this is what I was warning against but in terms of regulation in the space especially for institutions what do you think they should be focusing on perhaps it's not what they actually are focusing on at the moment but what do we need from The Regulators that is lacking within the industry I don't know Matt if you want to kick off on that one I I mean I'm a free market person so I'm not sure that any specific regulation would have would have cured for this um you know there's a spectrum on the proof of reserves for a centralized exchange from a peer self-regulatory uh you know disclosure and certain institutions will sit on a spectrum and then there's government regulation by Fiat uh you know our personal view is that with the election that happened the chances of legislation have gone down not up so you'll have just a more hyperactive regulation by enforcement as long as Gensler is around but it's going to be very spotty and I hesitate to to wish for anything uh because I don't think the prospects are particularly bright to get anything passed in the U.S in the next two years right and it's kind of um uh ironic that um it's it's defy right that um comes out rather clean here and if you think about what sparked sbf's downfall and when the community turned against him for real it was after the Eric Voorhees debate on Bank list which SBF lost in a twitching you know very very strange physical appearance uh and then um the the side that wants less regulation CZ uh was able to to bring him down so I I don't think there's a point even in talking about a wish list of Regulation mm-hmm do you have any views yeah I think there's no question these events are going to push faster regulation The Regulators as well thought more recent events if you look at the correlation risks like even the last two days it really didn't the contagion risk is still very limited despite you know of course it felt like yesterday it's starting to affect uh traditional marks you know still fairly limited that's actually making the kind of the speed at which regulations coming through is slow because if the contagious is much possible which is not a bad thing because you don't end up shutting the system instead actually you're coming up with some things but there's no question the systemic risk view institutions the regulation will have to come harder to take some of those systemic risks out of it but regulations must need to also clarify of course you know issues around security is not and you know still people cannot take positions around the businesses without having full clarity on it plus also Global Regulators need to come together it's always this cannot be just one Regional Global Regulators never come together to solve anything so so to an extent so uh but but they at least agree on systemic risk that's what ultimately the GFC draws so here it's more systemic you cannot have few individuals affecting all of us right so that that's a bit that The Regulators they're there to take it out and again bring trust to the system it you know as much as everyone like decentralization there has to be a dose of centralization to bring trust to the ecosystem as well yeah so we are trading both on sifi and defy part of crypto ecosystem uh naturally absolute majority of Trades goes through centralized exchanges I would expect the recent actions actually to push Market to towards appreciating the security of decentralized structures right and push Market towards that however there is one fundamental uh uh kind of obstacle today in our conversations with institutional investors who are investing in us very often they are uncomfortable with us kind of going deeper into defy as a matter of fact the ask is can you carve out defy from your operations and the reason for that is a lack of regulatory Clarity right and from their perspective holding indirectly or having exposure to defy indirectly opens the whole Pandora box with IML kyc and I think that's where the regulator should step in provide credits to that and the role of small smart conference overall how they are treated from the legal point of view what is the recourse and so on once that cleared we're going to have much greater engagement in device space yeah I would double down on that I totally agree with that um this is this could be a defy moment let's try and be optimistic you know talk about regulation I there's going to be an interest Monday is going to be interesting I'll tell you why it's Monday's the treasury the UK treasury select committee is meeting to discuss crypto this is one of the most important bodies in the UK legislating legislation and this is kind of on the back of the financial services and markets bill with Rishi sunak coming in and John Glenn who who you know between them they made the announcement back in April that the UK should be a crypto Hub uh now they're back on trying to make that work right and and the the interesting question and we're testifying at that alongside I think it's binance and a couple of others but what's interesting is what what will their tone be because if we've been knocked back by this and these are less these are not crypto people we have to recognize like these legislators are not crypto people so we have to help them we have to educate them if they take a knock back and they come up Monday in a very sort of aggressive stance based on this week you know that we've you know that we're in trouble and we're kind of have to add time but if they're able to see past it and actually think about UK plc and the UK the potential for London to become a genuine crypto hub that could pave the way for ETFs in the UK which is really annoyingly not not something we can do that we want to see and at that point you start to you know you bring you bring like this legislation in theory could bring crypto assets within the regulatory perimeter now I'm also a free market Advocate um lesser legislative lesser regulation than more but bringing it in to an existing framework is a very quick way to get the biggest institutions into into the into this and and and those that require trust so this is this let's be optimistic let's hope that that is a that is a milestone that we reach on Monday you know yeah and they're able to look past the recent events and focus on the industry as a whole um so just to kind of wrap up it's been a crazy couple of days but in terms of the market as as a whole I think we can all agree that the the knock-on effect and the impact to all of us um in terms of how we we think it frames um crypto digital assets and all of us who are working within the space you know even if you're not directly affected we feel the knock-on effect but what would you in in a sentence or two what would be your um uh main objective for for the industry to focus on um as a whole moving forward what should be our our aim as an industry I would say mine would be risk management um that would be that would be key what what would you like to to focus on I'll let you I think when you assume significant responsibility as SBA and then you burn this responsibility yeah every one of us we now have to clean this mess right and I think the only answer to that is transparency and blockchain actually allows for that we have to make use of this technology and go back to the fundamentals but that's the direction of travel that's the only way we can uh rebuild ourselves as an industry I think that's going to be a great answer right transparency I would just add Capital preservation uh not the time to be a hero like we've taken our exposure down quite a bit in the liquid strategies and it's not just crypto there are other macro forces that need to be resolved before others are going to look at this space more aggressively so passage of time and securing your funds to last for that duration mm-hmm yeah I think you know to your point the macro risks the traditional markets are going through Corrections it's also finding pain points uh no different crypto but it is a significant moment I actually think if anything more institutional more trusted players are going to come into it uh is it going to slow down the pace of the Innovation or the appreciation yes it will there's no question because obviously Leverage is going to come down and uh over over collaborate collateralization has gone not going to come through unsecure lending is going to slow down that's actually going to reduce leverage so there are issues we will have a face and I think with the only way to solve that is when you have good trusted parties coming into the picture and and being pretty transparent and better tools as well see kids you know I think it's humility right like we we make no mistake we are going through our Lehman moment for our industry right and for some of I think all of us by the looks of it we lived through that right I'm a lot more calmer now than I was in 2000 and September 14 2008 when I thought the bottom was falling out of the world and I know a lot of younger people this is your first time going through something this crazy so take a moment all of us whether we've been through this or not and just recognize this is a colossal balls up like this is a colossal moment like that that we can learn from but let's be humble and like a lot of this and to be to have good risk management you need to know what you don't know yeah you need to you need to know that that experience matters and yes I'm you never want to take away the the wonderful element of crypto which is youthful enthusiasm uh and you want to keep that but you also want to recognize like sometimes us older dudes I'll go ahead and put myself in that category like we've been around a timer too so let's pay attention let's be humble let's be respectful and let's in a couple of years this will all be forgotten and we'll be in another bull market and it will be legitimate to have the Ferrari outside the door but like let's not do that let's be humble and and just build ourselves back out of it you know yeah so I think it's about kind of bringing it back to basics focusing on blockchain focusing on humility and risk management within the system and and just continuing to build and I think that's that's what we all in our own different ways be focusing on doing um and I believe we wanted to have some time for questions so are there any questions from the audience that you would like to put to the panel hi thank you hi a question for Galaxy how are you guys looking to evolve in the crypto space and what plans do you have to expand in the new products and services what are your new narratives uh becoming the crypto world in the future for Tim Galaxy I didn't quite catch that to be honest so basically how are you looking to evolve into crypto space what are your plans to expand and add new products and services and what new narratives do you see becoming big in the crypto future um well actually we had our we had our Q3 results yesterday so Mike novograts talked a little bit about our plans we're we're going to put a lot of emphasis on asset management for sure um we're going to continue to apply our balance sheet on the on the sales and trading side with institutional players um you can imagine that we would you know we've got a pretty strong derivatives platform and I think we recognize the importance of derivatives as a growth as a as a piece of the puzzle to grow institutional adoption which is the ultimate goal so I think you can see us focusing on that um and and our investment banking franchise at this point is kind of well placed to be advising people to to do what we need to do so I think we stay the course on the overall plan there's actually no change I think the theme that matters we've talked a lot about the themes but let's just call like and this goes back to to the the title of the panel this is all about institutional adoption so the theme is going to be how do we get that trust to pull in those big big pools of capital I actually totally um with Matt on the big Sovereign wealth funds the ideas the the Saudis the Singapore's like they're the ones that that have a lot of Sway and if we can get their trust that's a signal for every other big pool of institutional Capital come in and that's kind of our that's kind of the game that we're in um and I think the the last part I'll say is the humility part like I think we so on Monday in front of the treasury select committee we need to be a part of the voice that is that that sounds grown up but it has to have a little bit of a mayor culprit we have to we have to sort of let them know like we get it this was this was not good there was trust was broken but here's how we're going to fix it I think that's the themes I would I would focus on uh so yeah on the van x side we're we're kind of set with our liquid strategies so we're you know we find the token Opera opportunity more interesting now than the Venture opportunity because obviously the valuations have been marked to Market uh but we will continue uh you know being active in VC with our early stage partner Cadenza and then on the narrative side yeah I think it's just I think it's a sovereign wealth uh you know new bricks uh that will be the story that will turbocharge Bitcoin so we want to be ready to capitalize on that actually we're coming to the market at a time of course markets go into correction if anything we see this as a significant opportunity uh on areas where we want to focus trading as a manager we see a lot of our you know even investments will be focused on institutionalization and evaluations are will get more normal and I think significant opportunity and and in a way we are leading the space uh very few financial institutions backed entities are there and uh you know fairly well capitalized so we we have the you know ability to grow fairly fairly rapidly based on obvious opportunity set uh on our site the fundamental Avenue for our development is building the multi-manager platform continuing to expand that what we're seeing is a migration of uh Traders from threat Phi into crypto and our typical uh uh manager would be someone who traded for a large uh Equity house on traditional space in hedge fund industry and then did crypto on the site over the weekends and uh overnight realized that's where Alpha is and ultimately moving to crypto and that's where we are coming offering up to 25 mil per per manager and allowing them to implement their view their strategy on our platform uh it has to be Market neutral it has to play Alpha only no beta exposure and in the good years people would come to us like why do you bother right kind of trying to extract 20 from the market One Market does 400 percent well in the year like that when Market collapses minus 70 you are not losing Capital that's a different game plan right and you immediately see the value so we are connecting in our particular case instructional world to the ability to get exposure to crypto without fully directionality bet but rather focusing sing on Alpha any more questions hello I this is hi this is Jeff here from composable finance my question is related to bridging Trad fire to D5 so a lot of the interoperable solutions out there the cross chain Bridges they rely on trusted architecture I mean there's been over two billion in hacks in the past two years so what is the infrastructure you guys are looking at to kind of integrate to onboard institutions Banks to provide D5 services to the masses so what insta what infrastructure are you focusing on in terms of onboarding Institutions well I'll pick up on anatoly's point about D5 yeah this is this is what we the the the the aggregate of what we're saying is if we can get the Sovereign wealth funds to put large pools of capital into D5 we're getting somewhere right like that which that would demonstrate the utility of this tool set that we have and and it is we all we all believe in it that's why we're all here the challenge is AML kyc and we're working hard to figure out how to create that wrapper how to create that trust um in a way that institutions and Regulators like fincen in the U.S would be satisfied um and we've we've tested some stuff out we've shown fins and some stuff like if we can get into next year and and get meaningful Capital to be to to want to go and participate in in this that would be a victory and it's that that little Bridge tool set that is on the one hand super valuable but also really kind of risky stuff you know you've got to get it right but like that that's what we're focused that's one of the things we're focused on yeah we're we're not directly active in D5 right now the the risk reward is just doesn't look particularly attractive like we could engage with a chanalysis and you know that would give us the kind of stamp of approval to go ahead and do this but there's um it's just not attractive from a risk reward and so just wait and uh wait and see yeah on our side the uh definitely looking at it and that's actually uh to all the points nothing Defy is essential uh particularly if you if you really believe traditional assets I think the real issue with D5 as well is you know the issue about recapture needs to be properly solved for that you need high grade collaterals need to come into the system I think that may happen at a time we are more and more real world assets get tokenized that will be the bridge to create liquidity within D5 then you have real assets as opposed to all collateralized tokens uh where ultimately the trust also is not there from recent events as well what it tells you but the big issue for the D5 is for institutions the integration needs to be easy and then once you integrate into the into these pools the next Seas of course the the I the kycaml aspect of it because you're pulling regulated unregulated assets all together co-mingling and uh so today there are some solution exists of course uh uh uh you know segregated permission more sort of pools um but I actually for it to evolve a lot further you need to have good solution around uh kycaml where you know seamlessly you can integrate and institutions can work without taking significant kind of uh unbounded Market risk um I think kind of the biggest challenge for institutional investors engaging in Defy is not attack because they can jump over that hurdle and accept the way Tech works it remains kyc just it cannot afford uh interacting with uh entities who kind of uncleared or unknown on the other side and whether we like it or not whatever is the ethos of crypto kind of complete permissionless success realistically it will not work with these institutions so we should end up running interactions on permissionless blockchain but allow on chain kyc so that select institution can interact with certain parties which have completed this kyc and that would allow actually completely different uh level of Engagement you still have the issue of the second and third degree of separation right and what risk is the fund man manager willing to take that somewhere along the chain of command there's a very small percent chance that there was a dirty wallet involved and there is no guidance on what those correct risk levels are so I think it comes down to like what's the rate of return available and like how much risk how far down the chain can you go history which is exactly the sort of the General's question that's what we're trying to solve for like is it five steps is it ten steps at what point are you satisfied that your duty of care your fiduciary element is taken care of are totally agree like that that's unsolved yeah they're always going to be some tail risk right here but that's perfectly fine they say tail risk is this is a traditional thing otherwise you wouldn't have these money laundering scandals right yeah so that's why I find the whole thing kind of meaningless right is that like what is that Tech how do you define the tail risk what percent right no one really says it out loud so we're either going to be in D5 because it's worth the risk or we're not I don't think that like having a forensic chain analysis telling you stuff that you already know is actually that value-add yeah I think we're at time now but um it's very clear that we we've come a long way but we've got a lot further to go um I'd like to thank all of my panelists here today for the great discussion and to all of you for joining us thank you