Intro to DeFi - 0xPoland S01E03

so yeah yeah let's wait just just a minute or so and we'll be starting today we have a lineup of great speakers we're gonna have two speakers we're gonna have a guest speaker uh there are uh plenty of announcements that we're gonna do today as well so i think it's gonna be extremely well extremely good um meeting today so really looking forward to it and yeah there are some announcements that we're gonna make uh i would like also to take that half a minute or so to tell you all that it's been a great journey so far and um the amount of people is overwhelming who joins ux poland we we more than double the amount of people from the first to the second meet up with more than double the amount of people who joined us so it's really really really great and yeah i think without further ado we're gonna start so let me let me tell you i'm marek from if works we are organizing it together with maker and let me remind you why we're doing it we want to build a lasting developer blockchain community here in poland but open to every really anyone in the world and we have a great media partners crypto dev that tv is resumed bitcoin who help us promote and uh who help in our mission to build a lasting community of developers of blockchain developers and it's going to be our third meeting today third meetup that we organized we also had a workshop last month a weekend workshop and i'm gonna tell you a little bit more about it in a moment and we're gonna have five more meetings this season uh including today we're gonna have a student workshops and we're gonna have more weekend workshops and we're gonna have a hackathon so i wanna tell you that last workshop there was a great amount of demand and we had to and thanks to maker we were able to do two groups instead of one so there were two groups each was 10 people all uh fully everyone showed up so that's really great and uh that was only we are only able to invite half of the people who sign up so therefore we would like to announce that in top of student workshops that we start in just a few weeks and another workshops in my we're gonna do additional workshops in april that's gonna be led by the maker team so that anyone who would like to can join and start learning blockchain development we also we also announced earlier that we're gonna do a hackathon in may the days for the hackathon has changed it's gonna be uh it's gonna be similar time but a little bit different because it's gonna be remote first so it's gonna be fully remote hackathon that's gonna start on friday 21st of may and we're gonna finish on may that 29th and i'm happy to tell you that we're gonna have some great partners some great sponsors we already secured twenty five thousand dollars for prizes and i think it's gonna be much more than that because we just started working with our partners to and sponsors to build this prize pool so we're going to announce we're going to have a great speakers we're going to have great workshops and we're going to have a great prize pool so i would like to invite you all uh follow us on our social media follow us on twitter on xerox poland but also we just opened discord so please join us on discord and you can expect announcement of specific partners and prizes and speakers in upcoming weeks and today we're going to have the two presentations there's going to be introduction to defy by barter krutkovsky from it works who's going to explain what the whole decentralized finance bus is all about and then we have a great great guest speaker from balancer alex van der sande who's going to explain in particular what is the state of automata made market making and uh why we should uh already go beyond that so really great lineup and without further ado i will let babtek start his presentation yeah [Music] so yeah i think we're ready bardek are you joining us wonderful hi bardek hey hey yes great to be here um yeah so i think i'll take it from here uh so introduction to d5 today we're gonna talk about what this whole d5 thing is all about we've heard on the previous meetup something about erc20 token standard we've heard on the previous event something about coding that now it's time to put all these pieces together and compose a bigger picture that will be actually useful and that will be actually bringing real value to this world so we can utilize it and see why is it so important so before i continue i just want to mention that i'm not a financial advisor nothing what i say should be treated as such and i know my my excitement might sound like uh like a financial advice but it's not uh it's not one um so it's only my private opinion about the other week okay so what is d5 d5 uh stands for decentralized finance and this is whole ecosystem of different sorts of projects that utilize smart contracts on ethereum blockchain not necessarily on ethereum d5 refers to all of the um all of the projects that deliver financial products across different blockchains but it's mostly ethereum these days as ethereum holds the majority of of utilized liquidity and the most devs create stuff on uh ethereum blockchain and as we can see there is this uh aggregator of of data which is called d5 pulse and that's screenshot that i've made for a similar presentation that i was i was doing um around two years ago so two years ago there were like some projects with some amount of usd locked inside the total value locked in the d5 was half a billion dollar and and maker was was like a solid leader and that was actually the only project that was that was kind of on the scene and today and that's actually the scripture taken today we have 37 billion of dollars locked in different defect projects and maker which is still uh which still holds the strongest position on the market is not it's not like uh it's not a killer it's not a tyrant that that holds uh that holds everything uh so it's uh it's growing uh rapidly like the the the temple of growth is outrageous and um and the ecosystem is really uh really flourishing um yeah so what is this thing um actually doing we say decentralized finance so we imagine some financial stuff so let's start with the simplest example possible let's let's imagine the simple bible what is banking all about we have our hard earned money and we put it in a bank we put it in a bank because we want it secured and some time ago we even used to pay for that right because banks provide security banks um banks can make sure that we won't lose our money and we were paying for that sometime passed and the banks realized that it's nice to actually use the smiling side because it can be land it can be utilized in some way that it brings profit so we won't need to pay to the banks anymore because the bank can make use of our money um so it can profit and actually it also brings profit to us right because we deposit money into the bank and we receive some small portion of gains created with the capital that we that we have put in in our bank um sounds like a simple example sounds like a simple truth that we put something in a bank and we get a little bit of profit so i think it should be possible to do it with smart contracts only blockchain using primitives that we discussed in uh in previous months so let's explore compound com let's uh so first first of all uh first of all we have uh some portion of dye dye is a erc20 token token like one of these we discussed month a month ago and one one unit of die is always worth one dollar around one dollar and let's imagine that compound is this sort of a smart contract bank and we put these dies into the compound we put them into there we deposit our cash into the bank and we get some virtual number which is in this case another rear c20 token which just says this guy deposited this amount of money into the compound it's like it represents our share in the whole pool of funds in the compound and how this money this this this token um in the pool can bring a new profit on the other end we have a guy um that wants to borrow it so he puts collateral and because the value of the collateral is greater than the amount of the um the amount of the funds that we want to borrow he is able to borrow the funds from the pool we need to do that because we need to make sure that he pays it back because his collateral is more valuable than the dice he took so he's incentivized to actually pay the buck after some amount of time um oh actually um before that i think it would be nice to make a comparison to the traditional finals because imagine a mortgage right the collateral might be considered for example a piece of real estate in normal case you put the ownership of a piece of real estate um like you you you pass it to the bank so the bank can can hold the real estate actually so you can borrow funds needed to complete the purchase and then after some time you pay back money and you truly become an owner of the of the real estate and similarly here you put ether for example some sort of cholesterol into the compound you borrow die and after some amount of time you pay the die back or your collateral is taken from you if you are not willing to to um to pay your debt pack and um and yeah and that generates profit and that generates profit because that's of course not for free and then the the girl on the left side who who was first to to deposit her funds her hard-earned dies into the compound can withdraw with profit most of the profit goes to here and some small portion of these funds is left in the compound pool as compound is indeed not the charity and this model works works extremely well it's extremely simple and works well and now um this is there's there's something i missed because actually the guy that put the collateral into the compound also receives some token that represents his funds located in the pool right because he also had to locate some something into the pool and then he should be able to withdraw it so now we have an interesting case because now we see that not only the diet depositor can borrow either not only if ether depositor can borrow die but also die depositor can bolo can borrow either so both of the sides can deposit something earn some yield on top of that and borrow other funds that are located in the pool and now how how does it happen that these fans are not blocked forever right because we have now uh the girl on the left who might intend to withdraw her die and they are not there right so so how does she do that and on the other hand there's a guy on the right side which might want to withdraw some amount of ether but it might not be possible because this amount of ether is not present in the pool so now uh we have this um this thing called utilization ratio and utilization ratio says how valuable an asset in the pool is so as we see most of the dye um most of the dyes located in the pool located in the pool are already utilized so somebody borrowed them they are not there and that indicates the high high cost of such loan right so high cost of such loan on one hand incentivizes more diet depositors to deposit into the pool so they can end so they can earn high yield and on the other it incentivizes borrowers to pay their loan back because it's just expensive and we see similarity with eve only small portion of beef is borrowed so so so it's not it's not needed that much anymore and we do not incentivize more people to put their eve into the pool but on the other hand borrowing this if it's not that it's not that expensive so anyone can do that yeah and as we now consider these two sides of the of the of the pool of the compound system which is cool and collateral we can actually see that it should be only one thing only pool people deposit stuff whatever it is they gain borrowing power because they can borrow against their their deposit against their colorado and they can earn yield on top of stuff that that they deposited simple and extremely powerful actually um i can tell you even more and that might be only one that that will be only a teaser because i don't want to to dive too deep into this one but it's possible actually to borrow something from the pool without any collateral but only in such a case if you do this for a very very very uh short period of time and this period of time is only one transaction um so you need to borrow and pay back a loan in the same transaction you need a special smart contract for that um and this is extremely useful tool that we cannot see in the traditional banking system at least not available for retail for retail users and i think that we will explore it explore it some time sometime later but yeah that's it's it's also possible uh synths so we were talking about this compound example about different sorts of tokens right the e or c20 tokens and there was this die um i was i was saying that one die is worth one dollar but uh actually why why is dye worth one dollar and actually why anyone accepts die when anyone can deploy any years into any token and it's like just a piece of code so what is actually die at the beginning let's a closed synth a synthetic synthetic asset like in depth what's essentially a synthetic acid so we are going to start with the simplest possible example which is wrapped ether rough ether is a is an asset that that solves one very very very painful problem of um of smart contracts we have an erc20 standard um all of the projects um utilize erc20 tokens we have dozens hundreds of different erc20 tokens while we have if which has completely different interface so whenever you create a system like for example compound which utilizes both tokens and if you can implement it for a near c20 token which utilizes 99 of the whole market and then this one edge case for eve which is which is not a near c20 token so how to fix that so apparently the easiest solution is to just drop an if um in a token right so you can put your if into the vault and this vault whenever you deposit into into this vault will give you exactly the same amount of wrapped teeth this is like extremely simple right this is basically the code that's responsible for that for the logic of depositing and withdrawing whenever you deposit stuff you pay some amount of ether you receive proper amount of property there and the other way around whether you want to withdraw you just create a transaction that will pull your tokens from your account back to the back to the back to the vault burn these tokens and and to return your wreath as simple as that and we have a lot of um things like that this one is the purest but this is kind of a sense that we can call a custodial synth this is a synth there is like a one issuer of the one issuer of the talk and one issuer of the currency and um this issuer guarantees that any time you pass them um you pass them your asset whether it's bitcoin or whether it's us dollar and they are going to mint you um proper amount of um of token representing the deposit so you can take one bitcoin and pass it to the to the to the roughed bitcoin issuer and you will get bitcoin on the ethereum blockchain you can deposit us dollar in a special account and then you will receive usdc or tusd on ethereum blockchain but still it's not die what is it then so far we are discus discussing only tokens which are hard packed means that they're uh they are heartbreaking to their um to their origin to their origins so they can always and especially um one if to one graph if and the other way around because that's such a very simple smartphone reproduction dye doesn't look like that so how does it work there is a there is a token um which was introduced by the maker foundation which was like the first great d5 project and the idea is like this you put your heath into a special vault this special vault evaluates how much if you put in there like in a dollar value terms right so not like it's one ether it's like there is an ether worth of 200 whatever and then you can create a proper you can create an amount of dye that is always lower than the amount of if inside the boat so die is like kind of let's say for now it's like ether backed stable coin right so it's a token it's a it's a currency that's backed by the value uh kept inside the balls in in different sort of currencies like for example ether um like we had the gold standard right so some time ago like each us dollar or or whatever else was backed by some amount of gold put into the special vault which was a bank and now we have we have this it's not the same it's not the same i know um it works slightly different but there are similarities and after you create designs you can do anything with them like literally anything you can sell them you can exchange them you can keep them you can do whatever you want and then you need to pay them back with a small fee this fee cannot be paid in die of course um because um because like how can you get more die down than you meant it right of course you can buy these dice from somebody else but then he won't be able to repay his debt etc so you need to pay the debt with um and you need to pay it back with um adding some fee which is expressed in in the mkr token and what happens if your debt is too large like larger than the value of the vault like that probably won't incentivize you to ever pay it back or wars what happens if the value of if drops down and now it doesn't cover it doesn't actually cover the synthetic debt that you issued so it's it's no longer backing these synthetically created dies there is there is a mechanism for that of course um it's called collateralization ratio and this is like a kind of red line it's simplified here it's it's it's simplified but i think it's it explains the rule um it's a line that's drawn between the value of if and between the amount of die and whenever the value of e drops down so the so so these values are are met and the system says okay whatever take your dice we don't want to see them anymore it's it's your problem now we take out your eve we'll sell it on the open free market we we will buy die from someone else and we will repay your debt and basically your your vault is closed your your debt is neutralized because we will repay dice from from anyone else on the market you will still manage to keep some some small portion of of if that was left for you but generally your position is liquidated right because system needs to be sure that all of the dyes are backed by ether the other way around if your debt raises so high that this ratio is met the same will happen the vault will be liquidated the ether will be taken out will be sold and you will just get the rest and you can keep your die and you don't need to repay the mkr debt anymore but what happens if it happens what happens if the situation is so rapid that within minutes or within like a one block period of time or whatever like really quickly the value of if drops so badly that um the system is not able to react right it happened it actually happened one time um i'm not sure if if it was only once but once for sure uh march 2020 and in such a case um the maker system will print new mkr tokens to cover your debt so and that worked so um you can be sure that every die is always backed by ether this is one of um one of its strengths um there are more um but yeah so to summarize um make sure that your dyes are always covered with proper amount of teeth and and the vault is safe um and actually what's what's interesting this can be done with other with other types of collateral as well so you can for example put your bitcoin into the vault and then borrow against that so you don't need to actually sell it to use its value right you don't need anymore to to necessarily sell the currency um cryptocurrency but you can lock it borrow it borrow some dice against it and then just repay them and use them in a way um that you that you would like to use and in the future i that's that's not true at this point this is this is like future probably maybe at some point you will be able actually for example um to get a mortgage on blockchain right because you need to block like a tokenized real estate into the vote and then would be able to to to issue some amount of diet that will be able to um to help you complete the purchase for example um that's that's future i guess um so um what can be used for uh like this whole thing because like now i showed you like two simple primitives which is like one is like pulling stuff into into like like putting stuff into one pool and then borrowing and then paying interest and now um issuing a synthetic asset um which is backed by some other assets because it sounds like it's very like what what can it be actually used for right so let's take an example you can create a leveraged token so for example you can pull ether into the vault mints and dice then sell the dice for more ether put this ether into then and like into another vault or into the same one whatever you prefer then you can mint more dice and buy more if etc like create this leveraged position and then at the end of the day when you have like at the very beginning you had like two uh hundred dollars of uh worth of uh but then when the price changes like you get more of course of course it's dangerous because if the price of if drops then um then you can then then you get less but what's what's powerful here is that it's not it's not trusted right it's not like there is some sort of central um authority that allows you to create or use um this kind of um this kind of product that this is something that's naturally created on top of blockchain this is something that's fully automatic that makes sure that everything will be fully backed repaid and properly managed and you can be sure that it all works well you can do shorts you can for example put dyes into the compound pool borrow if salt and then when the price of eave drops rebuy it for a cheaper price take and keep keep the rest of the diet of course the other way around you will you will you will lose but that's that's how market works and here there won't be like any stopping the market and like deciding that it's volatile and then bruce you doing um whatever you think is is is okay whatever you think is is is not risky not too risky for you and there is no one to stop you if not the smart contract logic which is which is always always making the final decision on what can be done and what cannot be done and the the other the other thing is just you can actually buy stuff with with this mechanism right because for example believe me or not but there are some people that consider their cryptocurrencies their wealth and they do not actually intend to sell that ever or um or not or not in the near future so if you want to buy something you can actually put your cryptocurrency into the vault um issue some dice and then for example hope that your debt will be would be rising slower than the value of your of your if which is which might happen and might not um you can pay it you can actually use the value of your currencies without without getting rid of them or at some point you can just liquidate the vault itself with a flashlight right so um i will explain that sometime something in the future i guess but that's that's that's also uh what's on the table um is there more uh there is and there is um there are dozens of different kind of things so um for example there are decentralized exchanges um it's always very controversial topic um like the decentralized points of failure right the like the the stories of the of the cryptocurrency exchanges that were that were failing and uh they were closing the markets or they were just disappearing this problem doesn't exist anymore um if you are using proper tools there are there are products that allow you to exchange stuff on chain without like there is of course a risk that the protocol risk that that something will fail or the whole blockchain will disappear but it's like significantly rest less risk done using a centralized exchange so um so so um so yeah and you can also like compose stuff um that utilizes these exchanges and perform some automatic operations i won't dive deep into the decentralized exchange kind of topic because we'll have um we'll have a presentation uh from alex um and he will he will explain everything um there is eel farm which is like a very very um trendy uh topic these days so i wanted to i wanted to uh mention it and more or less explain what it's all about because probably um if you are completely new to d5 then you probably haven't heard about it that's that's fine but if you are not new to d5 then you probably heard that um so what is this um we had this simple uh compound example right there was someone with some amount of of die tokens um which were located the um to the compound pool the sea life were issued and um this depositor was earning uh some yield on top of that so this is the simplest form um of yield farming right it's not very sophisticated but it is one um and let's stick to the compound so because actually a compound probably was uh was the first one to to create a product that that that created the um the term of yield farming because they started adding a comp token so the the active users of the uh of the compound of the combo protocol were allowed to claim some small amount of um of comp comp is like a internal compound governance token which um which empowers you to take decisions about the future of the protocol and what happened apparently uh apparently um the comp token was so valuable that it was okay for you to not only deposit your dies into the pool earn some interest on your dies and also earn the comp tokens actually it was profitable for you to deposit dice and borrow if then deposit this if again into the pool not repay it just deposit it again so you have like more deposit right you actually like this deposit is like is losing value because you're you're uh you're both landing and borrowing at the same time which which like you cannot profit from that but this small amount of cop tokens was condensating that it was worth it and then you have borrowing power from the c ether that you have so you borrow more die and then you convert it to the c tokens again and you again borrow more uh comp you um acquired more comp and apparently that was pretty scary moment because lots of people were thinking that it's gonna blow up and it's gonna there's gonna be disaster but there was nothing like that um it's not that profitable anymore and however it's still like the using compound is profitable but these crazy things are not that profitable anymore and um and that's uh how how how it was how it was all um proceeding let's say and now all different protocols are also um having their own token which is used for something and that's supposed to bring value to their holders so people can um can actually um do something interesting and um here we can ask a question about the comp token itself like what is it for right because um like it shouldn't have any value um it's like at the first glance right because ether is is a cryptocurrency some people are even at this point of time still asking questions whether cryptocurrencies have value at all so that's that's one thing then we have these dice and if we consider ether to be valuable then probably we should also armor on our dies and their value but what is a comp talk yeah apparently there is this a powerful governance thing which actually makes defy really decentralized so whether anyone wants to change anything in the compound protocol people that hold comp token decide whether this is a good option or or not and they vote whether they want to this improvement to go live or not and that's essential because there's like no central authority of course not all not not every project is starting from this point this is uh when the projects evolve and and um and develop they are moving towards this decentralization and they start probably with an owner but then at some point they gain some traction they gain some some group of of of dedicated users they have a community and then this community um actually governs the actually governs the protocol and that's very important because uh how do we know that these random people from across the internet will know what's good for the protocol right or um or or will have good intentions right because we are actually now like and for example the the creators of compound actually passed the ownership of their of their child of their company to random people across the the internet who can do anything why why would they act in a way the compound foundation ones because they by holding this token they expose themselves um to to to the success of the compound right so the value of the of the comp token will will probably go up if the compound is doing well if component is successful if it's aggregating a lot of fees and if it's just prospering and will will decrease in value um if the compound is not doing okay that's a similar thing to that the mkr token for example um these holders of this token are really interested in the in the protocol doing well so we actually have a system of really healthy incentives for random people from across from uh um from all across the world uh to cooperate and to democratically um to democratically make a solid reasonable decision and there is like here is like no place for um for for for populism or like or pure politics uh it's always it's it's pure meritocracy where where the facts and the best ideas um are the ones that are that are picked and these uh these uh protocols are actually doing um extraordinarily well um right and there are like plenty of other things there are nfts which are digital art so you can and so you can combine you can have like a unique object like piece of art or anything else you can put it on a blockchain and you can put it up for sale um there are options because i'm now i'm now leaning towards the end actually at this point if you have any questions you can start thinking about them because there's gonna be a q a session at the end so there are there are options so fancy things fancy instruments for the pro traders pro investors there are indexes so for the ls pro investors if you don't want to pick any one particular token you can buy like sort of an etf which aggregates um a lot of tokens inside and um for example allows you to to buy a whole sector not only like a particular one random cryptocurrency that is gonna succeed or not you can you can just just spread the risk um there are insurance [Music] protocols that allow you to buy insurance for your smart contract investments so whether so so for example when the smart contracts are when there is a bargain smart contract which happens uh then you can get some sort of refund from this from this protocol and actually that's very fresh first situation because there was there was a and there was some sort of an attack on one of the protocols recently and the insurance went extraordinarily well um and people that were using it actually took no loss because they were just they were just insured um there are plenty of other things um i think it's it's it's not a bold state statement if i say that here on ethereum blockchain mostly i don't want to exclude other blockchains but i mostly focus on ethereum blockchain it's like the closest to my heart um we have a sort of internet planning effect right it's not like it's not ethereum is not a product itself it's even probably not the platform it's like a transact medium that allows new creators new inventors new startups to to build all sorts of new things on top of what's like already existing and i think it's it's it's really exciting and i think it's really worth learning and it's really worth building and yeah i hope that you got interested and i hope um that you're gonna decide to learn more because here what we saw was just like a tip of the of the of the iceberg it's just like um you know that the first sip from the very tall glass of defy and i recommend you to um too deep uh diver um to dive deeper okay uh thank you thank you for your attention and if you have any questions then i'll be really happy to answer them hello hello back great to see you let's wait and see if we have any questions let's give it a couple moments here comes the first one okay i see that yeah i'm gonna read the questions and you're gonna answer how does that sound okay okay so does maker have a plan to create tokens pegged to other fiat currencies or other assets example gold i'm not aware of of such plans probably of course probably uh the people from maker foundation would be their best to answer but what would i know is that there are plenty of other products that um that issue um other fiat currencies uh we have uh we have at least two types two separate to separate synthetic euros on ethereum blockchain and there is uh there is uh the trust token uh company which which issues uh true hong kong dollar australian dollar canadian dollar um there are probably more to be found on the synthetics um when it comes to maker i'm not aware but there are plenty of other products that do that and gold is also available at least in in two different flavors because i've seen it so if it's maker i'm not sure but definitely this is something that's that's present i think definitely more than two gold stable coins yeah plenty i heard the rumors uh that maker is indeed planning more currencies in the future but that is not official information by any by any standards by any means i think we have at least one more question let's see if it's coming if it's not showing here i'm gonna read it aloud can i it was asked by david feck on facebook can i use compound governance protocol to govern my dao so it depends what's the was the question exactly about because i can see at least the two ways to answer that so for example what you can do you probably can fork the compound the component covered and smart contracts and implement systems similar to theirs um because it's open source it of course has some sort of license but it's public to some limitation and you can like implement mechanisms that will work similarly that's that's one approach the other if you are really if you're for example creating some compound related product you can um create smart contracts in a way that uh that holders of the comp token will also will not only be able to govern the the compound protocol but also your protocol um yeah i think i don't know how to how to approach this in a different way maybe i'm gonna read it again just to make sure yeah generally if it's if we are talking purely about the the protocol itself which is like a basic primitives and basic mechanics and the smart contract design and architecture etc i think that you can you can utilize these patterns in your project as well and and it might work of course um you need to you need to probably first first have a community and and find a way to distribute these tokens etc this is the hardest part i think that that's that creating the protocol is probably the easiest at the end of the day we have one more question coming uh again i think there's gonna be oh i haven't i think we have more questions coming so let's take this one first okay um yeah so do you think we'll see financial energies in the near future and what it will do um yeah i was actually brainstorming this topic um some time ago i think that we will see uh more nfc use cases coming um so right now there are almost exclusively um collectibles and um and digital art which is uh which is like probably for for a very um narrow audience and and not everyone wants to get involved into that but i think that there are plenty of usages um and in use cases for for nfts which are uh which are not related to um to any sort of art for example um at this point um some transactions on synthetics that are not atomic um and that do not complete within one transactions um mint you an nft and this nft then allows you to claim the result of the transaction so that's that's that's one the other is i think that we will probably see um some sort of uh some sort of ownership proxy uh created with nfts in the future right because right now um there is like one um one owner of a maker vault for example and i think that in the future we will see an ownership of a maker vault as an nft and then you can for example pass this ownership of uh maker fault to anyone else or you can pass it to the protocol and you can actually build on top of on top of that also there is the alpha homora which allows you to create a leveraged yield farming positions and they're all unique because you cannot participate in alpha hemorrha like in very like kind of like crowd sale type of things also it's not like one pool every position is unique and everyone needs everyone needs to create and maintain on position similarly to the maker votes so i think that this position also shouldn't be owned by addresses probably they should be some sort of nfts and i think that um a lot of a lot more are coming and like anything that is um that is uh non-tangible in a very high level way will be tokenized at some point um i don't know if that answers the question i hope yes um if you want me to leak some real alpha and like then i'm afraid i don't have like uh killer up uh ideas for nfts at this point but i think there they will be uh they will be um seen in a lot of projects and they will be very useful in the future i i think we have a few more questions let's take one more and push all the other questions to the networking at the very end so let's see if we can see the next question maybe it's gonna be short so we can take two but no no just here waiting to start his presentation so let's generate a delay i think the other question was on discord thank you for introduction to defi could you tell us a little bit more about real use cases we are company that is purchasing insurance claim with a fiat currency and we would like to explore where therefore could be potential for financing this instrument so real use cases real insurance claim that is bought with fiat currency and what is what are the possibilities in terms of defi being a way of financially financing real life insurance claims okay so so so so that's a tough one um so that of course uh i think it depends on the level of decentralization that you want to have in your product in the first place um because probably if there's gonna be uh like one central authority that's gonna for example decide whether the the claim is rightful or not then uh then it's gonna be like then i'm not sure if it's gonna be like a perfect perfect fit for uh for a decentralized solution but generally i think that the whole like influencing drugs industry like as a as a whole might move to to to defeat some point um actually uh actually this is like really complicated question um yeah i think i think it might be worth to to take it uh offline to the networking session because um there are like plenty of of of different things maybe i'm gonna i'm gonna finish with with with uh with a statement that i think it makes sense to move insurance products to to defy even um if they are bought with fiat money and like at the at the retail um consumer end but um but it heavily depends on the exact use case so i think to summarize i think there are definitely opportunities but that haven't been tried much so far and that is connecting blockchain virtual space into physical so that is not that much explored although we see first loans that are kind of there so there's for example the startup called trufy that we would know a little bit about and um especially bardek and uh who who was involved in creating this and uh the idea is that you have a doll and there is a voting and um and the person who is um the person who is uh borrowing needs to be approved by the dao so it's like one of the first working they i think they actually have tons of millions of dollars already there in the pool so it's first working with reasonable capital uh kind of use case but that is a new use case this is a new thing this is like two months old so this is not this is going to be happening this year so then the question is are you going to be a frontier because if you do that's perfect if you want to look at other people actually doing it before doing it yourself then it might be not perfect timing for you yet