Devconnect ARG Day 5 - Worlds Fair Lighting Stage

Oh, the UX solutions are not matured enough. We've had account abstraction since years now. I think 2018 was the first time it came. We have all the technical solutions we need. What we need as an industry is more people who have more user empathy, right?

The kind of people that were needed maybe a decade back um for this industry are not the same um it's not the same personality that we need to also bring. For example, I should let me rephrase this, right? the the type of personality that was needed to bring and solve really hard challenges about a decade back um is not the same personality that has extreme user empathy. We need to attract more people into crypto that has this. Um I think it's a personal issue and not a technical issue to be solved.

Um number two is distribution. Well, I see a lot of neo banks these days that are popping up. It's the buzz word, right? Um, they kind of go global from day one. Um, they kind of continue to compete and build for the incentive farmers in crypto.

I don't think going global is the solution. You need to go lo local. Um, people have an inherently personal relationship with money. Um, you want to reach out to them. you want like you like the way you want to reach out to them in the ways they kind of um you need to understand the local nuances you need to understand their needs you need to understand their ways of expression right and that's something we need to kind of work on and there are some parts on the technical side that I do feel like we haven't solved um satisfactoryy to also go mainstream private payments Um right now all transactions are public.

Having this is simply table stakes at this point if you want to be a mainstream. Not having this is going to be a problem. Having this is not going to be seen as something magical at least in the eyes of the user. Number two is we need recovery for users at scale especially recovery that maintain self custody in some way. Um I don't think we've solved this yet properly.

Number three is under collolateralized lending. Um this is a big one and number four is just simply more protection, more statutory protection for users in case of mishaps. Today we have insurance but that's generally very expensive and it doesn't cover all the risks that come with um onchain banking. I feel like these things need to be um solved before we can have complete mainstream adoption. And [clears throat] this is our attempt to kind of solve it.

Um the Nosis app. Um building the first the world's first money app the right way. Not just efficient but also empowering. Um these are just some sneak peek of the app. We've not yet launched.

Um beta is coming very very soon. What are some of the things you're going to see? You're going to see up to 5% cash back. You're going to see world-class UX that cares about the user. We're going to see unmatched yield on savings.

It's going to be our open. It's going to be composable. There's not going to be no any lockins. It's going to be local first, global second. And that's not it, right?

We care a lot about ownership. You as a user are going to own it. Your account, your money. We're going to have progressive self-custody. Um giving optionality to users to custody the way they want.

Um, we going to allow or like we hope or encourage users to collectively own this money app. You vote on major decisions. You can propose things. You can we want you to be heard. And number three is is simply going to be more rewarding because owners always get more, right?

Um, our goal is to ensure that profits flow to you as the user and not from you, right? We're not just trying to build a back-end upgrade. We want to create this to be an ownership revolution. But that's not all. We've not spoken about the holy grail, right?

Why we started crypto in the first place, creating non-aligned censorship money, censorship resistant money. Um, have we solved it? Well, I'm not sure. Bitcoin kind of did, but not fully, right? And this is our attempt to solve it.

Um, we're reimagining money itself with circles. Um, it's an extremely hard problem to solve. Um, we've not yet figured out everything, but with circles, well, we're trying to make money fairer. We're trying to give the right to money creation um to all individuals distributed fairly. um circles is built on or like backed by a trust graph and which could also become a non-invasive identity system.

Um we don't have all the solutions yet but this is our attempt at solving money at solving payments at solving banking and making it the way it should be. Um we're launching very soon. um to get on the beta, join this weight list and if you have any more questions, feel free to reach out to me on X or Telegram. Thank you so much for your time.

Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you. Sorry, I I pulled my There. There you are. Okay.

I was also just told we have Q&A.

Ah, you Oh, yeah. I have So, uh, do you want me to help you with the Q&A?

Well, um, are there any questions? Let's ask. Uh,

you do have one.

Sure.

Ask me.

Yeah. Hi. Hi.

Huh? Okay. So, you're talking about how uh we can be separated from the banks. Okay. traditional finance but there's a lot of problems that now crypto has okay like uh private payments or like what happen if something happened who should I talk with okay but what about converging and matching forces with the traditional finance instead of fighting do you think that that's a possible way or

you're asking if we should be converging with traditional finance or fighting them Yeah.

Yeah. I think I don't think the way there is to fight or rebel.

I know. I mean, no fighting, but

Yeah. Yeah. No, I get what you mean. Like um I think there is a way we kind of bring um traditional finance onchain which is happening right now.

Um and we can either let it happen in a way where they just extract or build it for efficiency or we can get them to come to us and um build it for efficiency and the empowerment of users. So this talk kind of talks about how do we kind of wake up and ensure that we're not fighting with them but we make them understand why we started this and how do we bring that empowerment to users.

Yeah. Cheers.

Hi. How would you comply with some of the laws that local regulators have when you're have your local approach with your onchain wallets? Um well [clears throat] um so right now we're planning to go live in Ireland first. Um we have some markets that are fairly a lot more like regulated or like um markets that are um more friendly to for example onchain kind of finance. EU is one of them and therefore kind of that was kind of the logic to go there.

Um we're working with like we also kind of also working or building stuff on chain with self- custody minimizes sometimes the requirements of um needing a lot more regulation since we're not custoing anyone's money. Um so that makes it easier. Number two, we have Mika there. Um the stable coin issuers that we use on the app are all Mika compliant. Um so yeah, it's relatively easy but it's it's kind of a scale, right?

when we want to go to like the real emerging economies, we don't have a lot of regulation solved there fully yet. Um, but it's coming. I I think the goal is to not build against them, but the goal is to build it with them in the right way. Right. Yeah.

Thank you.

Any other questions? I think that's it. Well, thank you so much.

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Heat. Heat.

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Heat. Heat. Heat. [music]

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Hi. Okay, we're back. We're back. I hope you're having a good time. I I can invite you everyone if you want to join.

In case you don't listen, well, you have the headphones there. Uh so you can listen properly. Maybe if you don't want to, it's okay too. But you hear me well. Okay.

Perfect. Perfect. Well, we continue with this beautiful morning. Now, we're hitting with um our Argentinian friend also who is going to talk about a hitchhiker's guide to to a transl automation protocol, but he knows better than me. So, please give him a warm applause.

Thank you very much. Uh, Fu Pano.

Thank you. Thank you very much. Well, uh, hello guys. Good morning. Uh, it's a pleasure to be here, uh, speaking to you today.

So, um, as the MC said, uh, welcome to the Hitchhiker's Guide to Atrosis automation protocol. Um, my name is Fus Panolo. I've been in the space for a while. Uh, since 2017, that was when I started. um mainly as a security researcher and and blockchain engineer at open civil and then I continue uh contributing to many different projects in the space like Aragon balancer the graph and four years ago we started mimic uh with my two co-founders I'm currently the CTO and today the idea is to tell you a little bit about the the journey that we've been going through these years which is mainly about automation but what do we mean when we Okay.

Uh automation mainly we could I mean in terms of web 3 or blockchain we can refer to automation as the concept of interacting with the blockchain without any manual intervention. Let's say uh we want to execute code in the blockchain when specific conditions are met. This concept sounds kind of simple uh but it's not that simple. It's not simple at all. Actually the the story that we're going to tell today is all the things that we've been building around this concept in order to make it happen.

Um so let's uh begin with our guide. So yeah, Marvin is going to help us today. We will see some sort of the different tools that we'll put on top of the inside the hitchhiker's uh bag and we will see how it gets along the the trip. So, but this is extremely important something that we don't need to um I mean we need to bear in mind is that all these years we always wanted to build something that is trustless and decentralized. All the implementations of of these different tools and concepts that we've been shipping for the for the community are mainly decentralized and and and trustless.

So why because essentially when you are talking about automation you're basically talking about also for delegation like you're delegating the power of executing things to someone else. So it's extremely important to be I mean if you want to do it to try to make the goal to make it non-custodial permissionless trustless and and much more. So this is a critical concept that we need to bear in mind. So chapter one uh a skill transactions. So let's think about this.

You're a new uh web three builder uh in the space and you simply want to do uh I mean you're trying to develop an app for your users and let's say you want to allow them to buy I don't know from time to time send a transaction at the end of the month in order to buy ETH or whatever. the simple concept of just I don't know transferring money one from one side to the other if you need to do it uh you will probably need to handle like triggering transactions on time uh schedule transactions which is not an easy thing you need to start dealing with RPC nodes uh nonsis uh private keys store somewhere and much more so if you don't want to do that maybe you can go for some decentralized tool like gelato uh keeper maybe there are a few more that you can go with uh to make it happen. So let's think about that there's some sort of scheduleuler uh somewhere that we can reuse in order to uh send transactions um periodically or schedule transactions. Some something else that uh it's extremely important when we say about schedule transactions is that probably you need to uh handle like custom thresholds. You may not always want to send a transaction.

let's say um you want to buy some ETH but only if it's under uh I don't know X amount right so if you want to do that then you start having this sort of onchain conditions again some of these tools that we were referring if you want to reuse them I mean someone something that it's already in the space like gelato keeper uh defender stuff like that maybe you're allowed to query onchain information to make it happen but it's not that easy but let's say there are some sort of uh things that you can you can reduce in order to make thresholds possible. [snorts] Chapter three is token prices. So as we were saying what if we start saying okay I want to do it but only if ETH is below or above for example 1,000 USD. So in this case we just uh start talking about something a bit more complex. You need to start probably integrating with oracles.

Maybe if if we are saying about ETH, let's say we can reuse, I don't know, something like chain link or a unisop pool or something like that or I don't know like we can try to find the price on chain somewhere. We could use GWAPS. Um but again, if we're saying about something super specific or simple, maybe there's a chance we can reuse it. Um but for example if we're we're talking about any token price let's say I don't know a token in Solana in another chain or some some weird token um it's not that easy I mean there are not prices for everything on chain. So this thing starts uh becoming more and more complex.

So this is where uh we started deciding to bring some data sources offchain uh to be validated somehow onchain because again we wanted to make it process and decentralized but again um the general concept would be like we need to query information offchain but somehow make it happen on onchain. So it's definitely not simple as we were saying what type of operations we may want to um support I don't know probably the simplest ones or or the most interesting ones are the fire related stuff swapping tokens bridging tokens I don't know investing in some protocols could be lending borrowing whatever um as we were saying now you probably might be a little bit uh professional in terms smart contracts integration maybe you will need to understand the the different logics of different protocols out out there is definitely not an easy thing. So this bag of tools it starts like getting bigger and bigger and every time more and more complex like in what will happen for example if you want to uh integrate with aggre aggregators that's another um not trivial thing because uh many of them work offchain so um and if we want to do something more generic we were saying about just uh defi concepts but what if we want to do I don't know you have some sort of uh custom protocol that someone is building. Um, so at some point you will you will probably need to execute what we call arbitrary calls like I want to be able to um just execute any type of transaction not just a swap or just or a bridge uh like any type of transaction. So this one is uh even more complex again because you're I mean trying to program each of these is definitely not as scalable.

um it would be ideal to have some sort of standards uh for custom calls but it's nothing pretty much uh in a in a in a good situation this space going on. So um having some some sort of generic calls that you can reuse in your in your uh app or whatever thing you're building is definitely not an easy thing. [snorts] What if we say we've been at the beginning we were saying about uh scale transaction something that is triggered by time but what if we need to trigger something based on again a price that goes up or under certain threshold. What if we need to I don't know listen to an event in another chain could be also not an EVM chain. This again is uh definitely not not easy.

you need some sort uh of network of probably validators or oracles something something to actually tell you that something is going on in another site to so you can trust it uh to make it happen. Um in order to implement arbitrary uh event triggers you you will probably need some sort of as I was saying some crosschain oracles to make that information be available in in different chains. So it's definitely not an easy thing. Um and this is well one one of the critical concepts that I mentioned at the beginning uh trustless execution. What I mean with trustless execution is basically that delegating the power of executing this that you are trying to automate to someone else.

So how do you handle the the keys uh management here? You're probably not willing to expose your keys. So there must be some sort of um um pattern that you can follow in order to delegate the execution to someone else but still being trusted and non-custodial so you can feel safe that no one is going to steal your funds or whatever you're trying to do on chain. [snorts] Um storing keys are critical probably you heard like th tons of hacks these days uh especially networks of validators like bridges are being hacked because their keys are stolen somehow. So um trying to build something that again that you can delegate to execute the the execution to someone else but without giving the keys is definitely not an easy thing.

So if there's something out there that you can reuse in order to make it happen that will be extremely easy. Um the final idea is that the question that we always ask to ourselves is is there a way that I can write my code um so anyone can execute it because I don't know if someone has questions. Yes, sir. Do have the mic. Perfect.

Yeah. Hi. Um, so I had a question. There's a general tension when you build um,

sorry, you can pull your mic.

Can you hear me now?

Okay. So there's a general tension in UX when you make things very smooth to the point of inducing people into a state of flow which is great at the same time in crypto or in financial apps there are you know you don't want to put people to a lull to a to a because you might end up being in a flow and losing I don't know you know a grand thousand or whatever right how do you make sure to wake people up cuz for example has a long history in accounting app pre- crypto where they had problems where they made the accounting app so easy people started making mistakes. So and crypto as you know is full of you know people losing money all the time and bad UX. So while solving the good UX problem how do you not encourage people to you know how do you do it?

Excellent question. Um intentional friction. So many times some people want UX to be as smooth as possible and I agree very much agree with you. It should not be. There's certain things that need to be smoothened and there's certain things that shouldn't be smoothened and there's actually unique and creative ways that you can add intentional friction to do these things.

So for example, uh the send flow always works for everything. Um and so when going through a send flow, you the the the problem here would be what if I accidentally send money to the wrong person, right? or I send too much money to the wrong person. And so how do we account for these two things? One would be a confirmation screen, right?

Instead of just being send it's gone, a confirary confirmation screen to say, hey, you are sending this much money to this much person. Are you sure you want to make this decision?

The second

sorry the the wallet uh it's an agree with the chain.

Yeah,

that happens a lot.

The the right chain as well. Yes. which is always good to show in like a sub depend I

the chain the chain's a hard topic because in certain circ in certain circumstances we want to abstract that away as much as possible. Yes.

For example, if you use pistachio you can send money to anyone and we support all the internal chains. So if you send money you're never going to get it lost. Right. Okay, one more

um

uh sorry I agree with you what would be interesting to see in your slides that the dichotomy you cuz not just you but usually people focus a lot on oh it's bad UX let's make it but also saying it's sometimes good not to I mean you I agree what you're saying but maybe you should highlight it a bit more in your deck and general folks who work on design should highlight it more like it's not for example enough to add confirmation screen it's also important to have the confirmation screen in such a way for example the yes button always not in the same place you cannot blindly say yes yes yes yes okay okay yes yes let's get it over with you know so you have to kind of trick the user in a way they're like bit disturbed also like this thing sucks they're like ah okay I'm about to thank god you see what I mean and

and and a common way that I've seen this done that we use as well is instead of just having a button to change the format of the button to do a hold to swap or slide to swap and this new interaction creates this this a minimum level of minimum friction but that also it stops the user right to stop the user in their tracks instead of tap tap tap tap tap it goes through tap tap oh wait I can't do this wait why can't I do this oh I need to slide because I first have to confirm you're stopping them and it's enough friction to stop them without really making their life harder and so this is only the second time I've given this talk and I tried to brain dump as much of the stuff I've learned concerned as possible but I will absolutely be adding intentional friction to the the next time I give this. So, thank you so much.

Thank you for your talk.

No, thank you for thank you for the question.

Amazing talk by the way. Super interesting. Super super super interesting. Do we have more questions? Don't be shy there.

Perfect.

My throat is cooked after a week. I'm sure you guys can empathize. Thank you very much for the talk. It was very informative. I learned a lot about UX and UI.

Um, so thank you for that. Um, one thing that resonated with me was when you talked about the use of confetti as a dopamine hit for your users. I was wondering if you use any other tactics similar like that to engage users in your app.

Yeah, so we use little uh little success messages are great. Um, one thing that we haven't done yet, uh, because we are a small team, so as we iterate. Um, but basically we're going to be implementing a sort of experience system and which is like overlaid with loyalty essentially. And so these types of things when a user in order to reinforce certain user behaviors to get them to come back. Uh, it's why points were so big, right?

Because people want to farm them. Um, but instead of doing like straight points, you can do it in a more fun way that actually engages with the user where they feel like they're gaining something even though maybe they're not gaining anything, right? I'm getting experience. I'm getting loyalty. I'm getting status.

Everyone loves status. And so by bu status, I think, is one of the absolute best things to build into any app ever, right? Um, it's the reason people follow people on X. It's the reason people uh share share things because everyone to some degree wants clout. So if you can build these sort of uh intents into your app like we will be um I'm I'm always like a big fan of of of those types of things because that it's just it's it's a human nature to some degree.

So play into the human nature.

Great answer. Thank you very much.

Yeah. Thank you.

Thank you very much for your questions. There is another questions out there. No, no one. Don't be shy. Okay.

Uh, you know what I what I want to to take double click it was on predictability that you've been talking about that and how easy for us users is like taking your wallet and maybe I don't know how it works. So this is my questions because uh the other day I was on the one shop and automatically say do you want to transfer there my my app? So how does it know is about like uh GPS or like the time or the hour that I'm used to that transfer?

What was the the circumstance of it?

Um it happened to me a few times.

Yeah,

for now. But I remember More exactly. The other day I was in my bed

about to h about to order food. Okay. So my supplier of my food uh I always like deposit uh deposit him and when I open my transaction wallet it was they say do you want to transfer to my food guy? They say yes how did you know? And I did it like so happy.

Yeah. So again it's it's all algorithmic behavior.

Uhhuh. Um, a lot of people think our phones are listening to us and

they're not.

They are, but

in a in a different way.

Yeah.

Um, not in the way that we expect.

We can lie between each other, you know? We don't.

Yeah. Yeah. They It's It's Yeah. [laughter] They they do listen to us, but for these these particular behaviors, they're like our phone isn't listening to us and then and then giving us these behaviors from Facebook, for example. It's just that the algorithms are very very good and we have comprehensive amounts of like user data on the internet already and so they have profiles of us.

That's why we need better web 3, right? Because they collect our data like these web two companies make most of their money off of our data harvesting it creating user profiles and then reselling it.

Um we collect almost no data like we collect like which which IP you've connected to uh because we have to from the app store, right? and like which email you sign up with and that's pretty much it.

Um, but in the future in a in a kind of a visionary sense, what I would personally love to do

is enable you to turn on your data capture only if you get compensated for it.

Okay. I mean like the to expose your data only whenever you want

to expose your data based on your permissions to say yes I am I am this age. I am these things. I'm interested in these things,

but because you are reselling my data, I get a cut of that,

right? Because our data is already out there being rehashed and resold a million times over.

Cookie, accept cookies. Accept cookies. And

yeah, yeah. Right now, reject those cookies.

Yes. Yes. You know, the other day in the talk it was like we shared cookies. You and I and we say, do you know what are you eating?

Well, the same happens with when you accept the cookies. You don't know who is eating your data.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I love that analogy.

Perfect. Perfect. Well, we have a one more question or we can have the the other talk now. Okay. Thank you very much.

It was really really interesting. Please big applause. Thank you very much for coming. Thank you. Thank you very much.

Okay. Okay. Oh. Oh. Okay.

So, we're having a lunch break. Thank you very much for joining us. It was a pleasure to be your host this morning. I hope you have a great time, a great day. Enjoy.

Absorb everything you can for this uh this conference and I hope you're having a really good time in Argentina. Thank you very much.

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Heat. Heat.

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Hello. Good afternoon everybody. I have Hello, good afternoon. I wish you all a very nice day today. I hope you had some sleep on a Saturday.

I hope you had a very fantastic Defcon connect so far. I Hello. Hello. Hello. Good afternoon, good morning for all the ones who went out yesterday.

Voila, we have a beautiful sound going on and good afternoon everybody. We are almost having a very beautiful Devcon connect week. I invite you all to come to the stage to have the last two talks of this week coming here on the Saturday. We have a fantastic expert who has over 13 years experience in growth marketing, behavioral economics, talking about paradoxes. You know, the funny thing about paradoxes is that although they're quite illogical, they somehow always keep making sense.

I guess that's what makes them also a paradox in the end. And who's better to explain a paradox than an expert in behavioral economics? Today I would like to introduce you to Tobiius Freder who will be talking about the gateway paradox. Tobiius Freder head of Lam from off please join me on the stage. [applause] I will give the whole stage to you.

Enjoy.

Thank you. Thank you. Hi everybody. I hope you are enjoying this this week and this Saturday here in the connect h I am toas. Thank you for the introduction.

I am the head of Latin America and head of growth at offramp. Offramp if you don't know it the stable coin neo bankank and today I'm going to speak about a concept I call the gateway paradox which is actually a behavior that we we see in offramp in our users and it's actually something general of the payments in crypto. So if you are interested in the payments use case in crypto this is probably going to be interesting for you. So first I want to speak a little about some things that of what we are not going to speak about in this in this in this 20 minutes. I am not going to speak about banking the unbanked.

I'm not going to discuss if web 3 is or isn't the future if defi will replace banks or if crypto will replace fiat. And then I'm not going to speak about any of these things because all these things are quite like ideological or philosophical. These are things that we as crypto users, crypton natives, builders, we think that these things are happening or will happen in the next five or 20 years. And probably some of the conversations during this week have been around these topics. H and we have been seeing some signals or some early insight that these things are happening.

But today I'm going to speak about something that is actually going on at scale in some crypto payments companies. So let me start giving some context. This is probably something obvious for for most of you, but there are two types of people in the world. The cryptonatives and the rest of the world. And probably the the proportion is even like smaller for the cryptonatives.

They're not it's not like this. There are still less crypton natives. And we need to understand that if we are building for the whole world, we need to understand this and understand how to create products for uh the for the main for mainstream population. And and a specific thing that we need to assume is that most people don't care about crypto. We tend to focus our initiatives to become mainstream in things like improving the UX, improving the technology.

But the reality is that crypto doesn't have a problem of technology or UX. It has a problem of relevance of indifference. People don't care about crypto. And if we want to solve that problem and include those people into into crypto, we need to understand and assume this. And I think this is not a problem.

It's actually an opportunity for us. H as you heard during the introduction, I I am an I am a behavioral economist. I have a master in behavioral economics. And one like the key aspect of behavioral economics is that people don't make choices based on rationality but based on some psychological biases oristics. And in that sense people don't necessarily will choose to make a specific action if we explain them why that action is a better solution for their specific problems.

Sometimes FOMO or scarcity are more effective to drive action. And relating to crypto, it's an opportunity for us as builders, as people that are building products uh to become mainstream h in crypto. As long as we start we stop trying to make people understand why is better to stop selling the idea of crypto and start making people making people use crypto in their real lives. And this is the first concept I want to speak about today which is the egocentric bias which is that like the main concept of egocentric bias is that people tend to think that when they want to teach something to someone else the other person needs to learn the things those things in the same way I like to learn. So if I am a very like visual person and I like to learn things with visual images, if I have to explain something to someone else, I will try to do it like drawing a draw a picture or showing something, showing a graph or a slide.

And the bias here is that we as builders, we are here in a Saturday in November in Monosirus. Some of you travel from all over the world. So we are we are like very like intellectually ambitious, right? We are here trying to learn new things and and and and our way of adopting new products is by understanding, by listening, by investigating, by making our own research about these things. But we are not like the rest of the world.

So we tend to think that the way of on boarding people is by education. We must educate people in order to on board them into crypto. We hear this like a lot of times. I think that's a total like error. People don't want to be educated.

People don't want to learn. Most of people just want a seamless and a simple and efficient life. Or maybe also a car that lights up and that is cars. If you don't know what I am speaking about, go to our booth uh and you will you will know what I why I mentioned this. I mean a lot of people was on boarded to offer this week not because of the benefits of our platform but because we were giving like a very scarse and very shiny asset.

So now let me speak a bit about offramp uh just to give some context about what's going next. Offramp is a stono bank. With offramp, you can create your account. You can top up your your crypto and use it anywhere in the world with our Visa H card or with QR payments in Argentina, Brazil, and Peru for now. And what I what we see in offramp is this specific behavior that I call the gateway paradox, which is that we have two different types of users that are using the same product for two different and actually opposite reasons.

For one thing, we have onchain natives that use payments or offramp in particular as their last mile in their onchain interaction. Now, I will explain a bit more about this. And in this at the same time, we have another audience that I call the off-chain humans that use offramp and payments in general as their first smile in their onchain interaction. So let's start what what I mean with the onchain natives. With onchain native I mean an Ethereum OG.

Imagine a person that bought Eve five years ago and made a lot of money and is now trying to use those those uh I mean his wealth. um people like a solidity developer that works and gets his salary in crypto or a DeFi farmer that invest in DeFi and make and makes a lot of money. And what happens with these people is that they can invest, swap, trade, tokenize, borrow, lend, but they can't buy a coffee. here in the venue they can because fortunately we can pay with crypto but in the rest of the world you can be a millionaire on chain but if you don't have a way to use those funds you can't I mean you you don't have the bridge with the real with the real world world so that's why payments in crypto and all these stable coins in your bank became so popular in the last two years for crypton natives because at a specific moment now it's possible for us to use our funds in the real life anywhere. We we give users our our Visa international card.

So now a person, a cryptonative can pay for a coffee in a small town in Uganda if they accept Visa. That's crazy. And how are these users using off right now? They are depositing their stable coins. They are investing in our tokenized stocks or or treasury bills.

And then when they need to use those fun those funds, they can buy things in real life with Visa, QR, and if they need, they can withdraw their funds in an ATM or in local bank transfers. So what happens with this onchain natives is that crypto actually solve the sovereignity, right? like like we were looking for a way to be like real owners of our of our savings to be our own banks and all these ideological ethos of crypto but our reality still runs in Visa right in the Visa rails we need to buy things we need to pay for our rent and in most cases we can do it with crypto so this is my opinion but I think that these onchain natives don't need another D5 protocol another I mean there are there are so many chains so many protocols so many things going on on chain but the main challenge right now is to build the bridges in and out into the that world right so now let's go to the most interesting part which are the offchain humans because it's probably not you probably these are like the the the other like the opposite audience uh and within humans I don't mean the rest of the world here. I mean people that are in the global economy, right? People like uh freelancers, experts, uh remote workers, travelers, people that send or receive remittances.

And what happens with these people is that they don't understand crypto. They don't care about crypto. They don't want to learn about crypto, but they are using crypto now. And this happens. And so, so sometimes then they realize, wow, I'm using crypto.

and they start to get into the onchain world and start to invest and start to do other things into the ecosystem. So how these people use crypto? Uh these people maybe imagine a a remote worker that is working for a US company. He gets paid in a like an a wire transaction. So their employer isn't paying in crypto just making a US transaction.

Then erh also that person can deposit money. Imagine a person from Colombia can deposit fiat into into off too. They can use those funds to pay with visa, QR depending on on the on the country and they can also withdraw. So we have thousands of users that are deposit receiving their salaries in in US dollars from the US using with a card using with with QR and withdrawing fiat in their local markets to pay for the rent. They are using crypto and they don't know it.

So for these of offchain humans crypto is nothing ideological. They don't care about crypto. They don't think if web 3 is the future, if defi will replace bank. They don't even know what defi is and they don't want to know it. What they need is like a sim like a more seamless life, right?

They they they use solutions like offer because it gives them access, it give them it gives them speed. H it's like pragmatic for them to to use it. And in this case, and I think that this is like the most important concept of of my talk is that I think that the error is that we want people to adopt crypto. So we think that if we explain them and we show them the benefits, they will do it. And I think that that works for people like us and probably for a lot of other people in in the world.

But like the real adoption is coming from projects that are adop like like are using efficiencies of crypto to adopt the users. We need to conquer the users by by by providing them better solutions and they will use them as long as they are efficient for them and as long as h they want to do it right. So I think that's the now going in general into into into the payments uh use case. I think that's the challenge and also the beauty of of the crypto payments app that the same product works at the same time for two different audiences in opposite ways. That's the gateway paradox.

I think that payments are actually the gateway h for beginners. It's the gate the door they need to go to get into the onchain world and at the same time it's the way for crypton natives to get out from uh from the onchain world. I think that crypto isn't the destination. That's why I started with all the ideological or philosophical concepts that we usually listen and repeat because if we focus on that we are focusing on the destination on where we are going and why we are going there. I don't care about that to be honest.

I think that crypto is the infrastructure to build a better world now and there are some specific use cases that are being used for that. Payments in general is is in my opinion the most interesting use case today in crypto because it's the way it's sorry it's the door we all need to get uh to go uh through uh some people to get in some people to get out and that's why I think it's the most interesting uh use case in crypto and that's why also I think it's totally inevitable. Thank you. [applause] In case you want to learn more about offramp, there is our our website. That's my Twitter and my Telegram too in case you want to contact me.

H and happy to answer questions or discuss more things. Now, thank you.

Wow. Microphone check.

Wow, what a great conversation you had there. Thank you, Tobias. I think what really stickked with me were two things that people want it as efficient as possible. You know, it's like they want to flow where it's easy, not where it's hard. And I really liked how you're saying we need to adopt the people.

Uh it's a fantastic mentality. Thank you for sharing your learnings. Um I wanted to ask if anybody of the audience would have any follow-up questions for Tobia to be able to go further. I see one in the middle there. Can we get a microphone over there, please?

It's coming. Fantastic.

Hi, my name is Tomas. Amazing presentation. Just wanted to ask you what's next on on your road map? What are you guys working on? Our our mission at Offramp is to create first world financial solutions for people from emerging markets.

So we know from now people can have like like a sudo pseudo like US financial app but from the global south people from Asia from the Southeast Asia, Africa or Latin America can have a US issued uh card can have access to tokenized investments in in ETFs stocks and treasury bills can deposit and and and and send money anywhere in the world. So that's our mission. That's what where we are going. And in terms of our road map, we are trying to make as easy as possible for people to deposit and withdraw money from anywhere in the world. So wherever you have money, you have funds, you can you should be able to deposit that in off.

So you have like your global money but with the local freedom. What a nice question. Thank you. I have another question over there, please.

How you can overcome the challenges that you will face? How you can overcome the challenge challenges you will face uh or the consequences that you will face for example uh like as uh countries like as Iran for example if you have any uh users from there. So the we have problem with the America. So what will happen there?

Um at some point we are a global product. We have users in like in more like more than 100 countries in the world. We our our funds in offramp are fully on chain. It's a fully self-custodial product. So that allows us to be really global from scratch.

But unfortunately at some point we are using like bank accounts or card issuers or these things that have their own like compliance and and regulations and each country has its own like peculiarities. So uh we aren't able actually to to give our cars to users in some specific countries. Speaking about Latin America for instance the region I I managed the most. Venezuela, Kuba, Nicaragua are some countries that are that solutions like Ofram would be like really important but unfortunately we can't uh offer our products there. So going to your questions, we will be always like fully compliant with the regulations and our partners will be too.

So we will need to be like moving forward uh and and facing the challenges in the specific markets what once they they appear. Thank you for the nice questions. Um would anybody else love to learn something more on how we can make this whole stream more efficient or any other questions about Tobias? That is also definitely very welcome. Okay.

Well, what a fantastic conversation. I definitely learned something and I definitely can probably keep learning about this hard problem. Uh give a round of applause for Tobas Freed, please. Thank you very much. Thank you.

Thank you all. Thank you. Um [applause]

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