Philosophy Panel: Decentralization and the Future of Ownership

So I would say that it would be best if each of you would introduce yourself in one minute or so and um share with the room about you your thoughts for web 3 and um what is the most exciting thing for you in web three.

Hello. Hello. It works. Uh I'm Anask Jensen. I work at Nethermind as Ethereum core developer.

So um I'm at the forefront of Ethereum innovation. Um I'm mainly in uh blockchain because uh it's very much aligns with my personal values. Um and I believe that systems like Ethereum actually makes a huge difference for a lot of people in the world. Um yeah.

All right.

Uh I'm Bogdan. I went to philosophy school long time ago and I always wanted to make my perfect political philosophy and uh create you know my ideal political theory and push it forward and one of the best way to do it in this decade is to learn to code. So I learned to code and I've been tinkering on decentralization things for about a decade and that sparks joy. That's really nice. It seems like you resonate a lot with the uh the topic we are sharing today, your background especially.

Hey everyone, it's a pleasure being here today and speaking about uh this interesting, you know, topic. My name is Gabrielle. I'm uh working as a lead protocol engineer for a company called Emergentics. uh in the past last years I've been obsessed for to actually bring uh and bridge web two to web three. So I guess this topic is uh very of interest to me.

Cool. And Ralucan.

Uh hi Ralenegra. Uh what's defines me right now from a professional point of view is that I am co-founder at Bill 21 which is a real estate company that use blockchain as a support technology and also that I am a angel investors in the Bravo Angels community a community that supports and um actually educates um young entrepreneurs and female entrepreneurs. uh and um the reason why I'm talking about them is because they actually continuously trying to create bridges between web two and web 3 um technologies.

Super. Thank you. Really a really really nice intro from all of you. So I'm thinking to move forward and um let's dive in. Let's uh tackle some questions, some uh topic of interest for us and the crowd.

Um and I'll start by asking you what's the philosophical principle you believe it's mostly underpins the Ethereum. Go ahead. So the the main reason why I'm here is this idea of having the ultimate control over your identity, your data and your assets. The fact that there should not be any gatekeeper between giving you permission to own something or to participate or to build this is what I think it's mainly for me the the the Ethereum.

Yes. Makes sense. Makes sense.

Yeah, I do. I I do agree. It's hard to say something after after you said I think this is you know all we we need today. I would add just the fact that you know uh Ethereum's etos can be seen as an autonomy through decentralization. Um I feel like we are looking nowadays to own our data as you said.

Uh everyone is trying to have that ownership of o over what what they do and what they are. Uh we see that trend especially in you know uh freelancing uh payments and and so on. So um I do believe that you know autonomy should be the first principle uh uh at the Ethereum score.

Yes.

Uh I think we're quite blessed. I think there's a lot of things that Ethereum people care about. Decentralization comes to mind. Censorship resistant permissionlessness. One of my favorite is optionality.

We don't per say have a northstar and I think that's good. we can just come and do whatever we want and the layer is neutral to all credible neutrality so on so forth. Uh and there's also things that are not obvious in the protocol and things that Ethereum people care about such as uh privacy. It's one of the the most like of interest topic these days but like it's not obvious in the protocol but yeah we we care a lot about a lot about a lot of things. uh we write a lot, we debate a lot and I think it this community is somewhat uniquely positioned to do that in the world.

We also travel travel all over the place. So there's a lot going on in terms of values and we should be proud of that and we a lot of times are very critical unjustly about like ourselves but I think we're doing a fairly good job.

Yeah. So like my fellow co-panelist points out so you can say things like permissionlessness, censorship resistance, uh these things heard many times. Uh but I think the most important principle for me is uh freedom basically. So I see Ethereum as a decentralizing force in that it takes power away from the traditional uh centralized uh institutions that we built in human society. Um and basically give the power back to to people.

Um yeah and that's uh I personally believe that's the most important uh principle uh for me at least. Okay, thank you. So now let's let's go further and um imagine um the financial markets in uh a future close future near future where we feel like um these financial markets have been decentralized in terms of ownership. How would you imagine specifically from the user perspective and maybe from the um builder perspective or business owner? What do you want to bring to the financial markets in terms of decentralization and ownership?

Yeah, I I believe the best approach would be about observe approach. I don't think that the people should go to the financial market. The financial market should go to them. I think that there should be like a lot more localized because there's the best information that is not really captured in the economies at a local level. Uh and there's economic efficiencies and coordination potential that could generate economic value and make uh general economic participation more equitable particularly at the local level.

So I in terms of ownership and economic coordination I think like that's where most of the opportunities but it's also have harder to to to capture and ownership generally like particularly decentralized non-intermediate not paper bureaucratic heavy ownership is just empowering in itself. So um yeah markets niche markets for everything for everyone on the mobile phone you click you have a new market. Uh yeah,

yesterday Bdan you were saying that um somehow you put it very in a very intriguing way um is money the first uh use case for the blockchain or it should have been uh some other things. So now when you put it in the financial markets perspective with decentralization f with decentralized financial markets for the future. Um can you um somehow think of other other use cases other than money?

I I think first of all money is very important in the sense that everyone creating a money for any purpose. I think that's very empowering and we we still try to cope with that power because it's it's something very it's very powerful beyond money it's I mean it's economic coordination ultimately it still settles to something that lubricates like the economic activity which is also money um yeah I what I want to do what I try to do my kind of mission let's say is to increase the prevalence of co-interested value so the more people think the more uh people own things in common together in a shared economic space, the more responsible, the better stakeholders and custodians they become over time over those local spaces and even nationally, international like concentric circles of responsibility and stewardship, let's say.

Cool. It's a valid point of view. I think um uh if we look correctly at this, you have a lot of um impactful um way of thinking and it could um lead to more use cases if we take the decentralization in more use cases than than money because there is space for more use cases. And now basically um you Gabriel Ralvuka share also your point of view.

Yeah. Yeah. So what I hope the the culture of decentralization will change in the mindset of us as citizens is that we are not consumer we should be stakeholders. So this is the change that I think it should happen in the financials markets once the culture of decentralization will grow and will be adopted because I think communities can do a great job if they co own health educational products also because I'm coming from the real estate they will do a great job if they co-own urban infrastructure but if we just uh pay taxes and expect that somebody will going to do stuff for us we're going to service us our motivation to have better education to have better uh cities to it will be as low as it is right now right now so this is the impact that I think decentralization should have in financial markets

um that's true so I just want to point and say that nowadays it's everything about resources and assets so if you think about resources you might think about our time you know our time is our most important resource we have and what blockchain brings to the world and brings to the table is the fact that we can own that it's in our control. So you asked about some other uh areas where blockchain can come and improve something. We can think about the health care system just think about you know having um patients uh you know owning their own data having access all the time to this kind of datas. Uh we can also think about governance for sure. I mean we can use Dows to you know have local governance.

Um then you know um I think these are two very important uh areas where blockchain can come and improve things.

Okay.

Yeah. I mean uh I say I don't disagree with any of those use cases. Um, but I would say though that even though money is often seen as something that's a bit dirty and kind of ingrained in our culture, um, money is the most important use case on blockchain. Um, money is basically um an expression of personal freedom like um that's how our society works. Um your money is uh basically what defines what kind of opportunities you have.

Um

yeah, but it's the idea you have money to consume or to own

and you put your money

if by job to to

Exactly. So by putting money on on blockchain, we are getting money out of the centralized institutions that uh um I would say probably many in this room would agree that um is quite um uh takes way more value away from the rest of society than than probably they should.

Fair enough. Fair enough. So because we are talking now about decentralization and we wanted to design this panel in a more philosophical way. Um but somehow it touches the main concern that I see it's in the market the regulatory concern and do you feel like the pressures from the European Union to regulate the DeFi and um the consultations that are done currently with ESMA European Commission. Do you feel like in three years from now maybe um the decentralized space will be put at risk and become regulated?

I will say as a startup that the regulation in European Union make it very expensive to start a business. But I will also say that I am a fan of regulators if they really protect the user and I think that good regulation can actually support decentralization in the long term. But when I'm thinking about good regulation, I'm thinking about rules that are easy to understand and that the regulators really help people to use it. And from my point of view, you we should start primary school. So I'm not making a rule and make it impossible for you to understand it.

I'm making a rule and I'm starting when you are young to help you understand what it means to have your own identity, what it means privacy, what it happens when you create data, what's your responsibility and what it's your right when you create data, when you are asset and so on. And if you start uh early ages with uh explaining these um concepts and I don't know help people to use them then when they are in an open system uh it will be much easier for them to understand what's um the impact of what they what they are creating what's the impact if they participate what's happening if they not participate what they should look after and so on. So, I'm a fan of the regulators if they start young, simple, and clear.

Wow. Super.

Yeah, I do agree with that. Um, I just want I just wanted to add and say that everyone is seeing regulations nowadays as a you know monster like a boogie boogie who's trying to scare everyone. And you know the majority of people think that you know regulation is here to you know uh put a stamp of on everything and is it's against that digent style that we see nowadays in the crypto space um I feel like in order for you know blockchain adaption to see to see you know mass scale um we need to have regulations hand inhand with uh with the blockchain technology for Sure. And of course everything in the beginning is um more scary that can be in the in the long term for sure. So um I think that just to end devs should work with authorities in order to create the best practices and to shape that you know path to having um legal low for what we are building on chain.

I it's not my subject of expertise by any means, but I'm somewhat of a fan of what DU did. I think Mika is decently okay. It could have been way worse and in the context if you think about like the institution, all the players involved, the negotiation so on, it's probably an eight out of 10. So, it's it's a really good outcome. What I would have wanted maybe to be even more strict in terms of defining actual decentralization and trying to force actor to to to an almost unrealistic standard because we can get there right.

The EVM is too incomplete. So we we can achieve stuff u yeah I it's it's good. Yeah,

that's a fresh perspective, Mika. It's not as worst as it could be. And um but yeah, I I believe that uh in the next three years from now, we should expect some guidelines from ESMA to help the projects um realize if they are really in a decentralized space or they have elements of centralization and how to treat those centralized elements. But uh we we will see Anders. Yeah.

Okay. So, my perspective, I'm not really a fan of regulators or bureaucrats in general. Um, I think maybe one aspect that's missing when people talk about Mika is uh EU really likes to harmonize rules across everyone. Um, that can be good because it lowers friction. Uh on the other hand, we lose a lot of um competition uh in the regulatory space and therefore also um we we kind of lose the um the the practical test of running different uh frameworks for different countries and see what works best.

Um so all in all, I don't know. Um I I like decentralization. I I don't I don't like being told what to do. But yeah,

it's it's understandable. You were sharing yesterday that a lot of company somehow with Mika coming um they wanted to do business in Malta, they wanted to do business in Luxembourg and uh they realized that okay this is these are countries from the European Union. So it's not like Malta per se or Luxembourg per se. We need to comply with whole European Union framework and it could be cumbersome. Oh yeah.

Yeah, for sure. I mean, from a business perspective, it makes a lot of sense. Um, just from my personal point of view, uh, I would prefer something, um, um, that would allow for more experimentation, that would allow for more innovation, uh, that would make it a lot less burdensome for startups and so on to, uh, come with new products. But that's that's just me

and many others of course. So um maybe this one is a more technical but also for the community a question for the tech people and the community people of Ethereum. Do you see something ethical that we need to be careful with and be mindful of for the future of Ethereum? Um who wants to take it first? um something you should be mindful for for the future of Ethereum

perspective,

right? So in Ethereum core we um we we struggle with this a lot. Um just like Peter was uh talking about it's uh it's not so easy. Um there there's different perspectives on like what means decentralization. You just heard Peter say Ethereum should run on toasters.

Other people may say maybe yeah but a really really nice toaster. Uh or other people might say um no it's fine if it it only runs on u u like really uh enterprise grade hardware or something like that. Um and we try to strike strike like a a balance uh because we do have to also scale Ethereum. Um and right now we are we are heading towards um I mean basically we are conserving uh the principles that we have had from the the beginning. Um and then compromising in the sense that um uh basically we're going to introduce like specialized nodes for special jobs but the rest of the chain is still able to um verify permissionless uh full censorship resistance and so on.

So, um it can be difficult and some people are like very hardcore and I say, um Peter is probably one of them. Um and we had many like debates uh on this topics and so on. And but it's very good to have people like Peter um because he he's actually really good at whenever we are talking technical things uh discussing the next feature and so on he really hammers home u yeah what it has to be like this because this is going to break with our um basic ethics or philosophy

tech or community side which one you take when

uh both.

Okay. Go ahead.

I mean, I'm not a core protocol developer or anything, so I don't have anything to say. Generally, as a developer, you need to make sure that you're not predatory and you the you don't lock in users, you do like due diligence, you test your code, you you are an ethical player and try to we can actually uh start doing fully decentralized applications from the start. The problem is there that the upside and like getting buy in from capital is like a lot more difficult because they're typically not open to to this to being that kind of ethical. It's a little bit too ethical for them. Um but I think generally we have a good thing going on like the Biden quote right we have a responsibility to preserve and be good custodians and as Peter is critical of some decisions and like the how how Ethereum evolved.

I think we we have all community members have the respon this responsibility of of saying like even the negative stuff right being critical raising hell being infinitely demanding and this is not only about Ethereum it's about also democracy and even the European Union and so on so forth [Music] I think it's time to discuss more from a technical perspective to touch that point too. So uh as a dev I can say that even though we are promoting this uh mentality of having everything decentralized, we are still relying on a lot of centralized um layers nowadays especially in terms of hosting everything where we still have you know servers running on AWS on centralized uh solutions whereas we should be you know using more onrem hardware to to store everything and run our um our software. Um then to expand on what we should do in terms of development, we should try to write auditable code for sure. Uh open source is a key word and a buzz word here because um if we want to promote uh decentralization, we should open our software for others to be able to read it and understand it and understand it. I want to emphasize on understanding it because nowadays it's hard to write understandable code because you need to keep it simple.

You need to have a good documentation. You need to open uh the doors for others to build on top of your infrastructure. So I think this is uh the kind of mentality we need. Yes,

for me it will be ethical if you claim that you are b building something that is decentralized to be functional decentralized not just to claim it. So I think this is the only I going to do on this. It's a very good point and I think it's the main point that also the authorities uh put it in papers in legislative documents to say guys if it's not really decentralized don't claim it to be. Okay. So um that's that was super super interesting to find from your side.

Um but how do you think things will happen in um let's say from real world implications? Do you anticipate from the shift towards decentralized ownership models to happen something really really good for the community? Imagine the the shifting to a more decentralized um community, a more decentralized business way of doing business and this from a real world implication. Let's say the benefits or the the minuses perhaps uh the benefits is I think we're going to learn to build better in both uh in both worlds and in the end we're not going to have two words. it's going to be just one word that it's um also digital but also tangible um but this happens it's also it's happening what I was mentioned before if we change the way we look at things and we understand all both responsibilities and rights that we get when we are in a decentralized system and also understand what's happening if we do not participate in a community because um I believe in the power of communities to make things happen but I believe in those community that's has a clear purpose and once that they are getting bigger and bigger they are also uh able to clarify what's are the what are the values that are helping them to reach that purpose so if this is happening I think those community will really build better things for everybody and it will be helping humanity survive.

But uh if not then I don't know we will start having those cryptonive elites that will never interact to those who had never heard about crypto and it will be about who has the power to dominate.

Yeah.

Yeah. So I guess um I'm trying to look you know 10 years ahead and see what would happen in a world where you know blockchain will dominate and we will see like uh decentralization here and there. So I think there will be first thing first a power shift communities owned um resources and assets uh will have um in a theoretical world will have those governing uh everywhere from I don't know from your local um city or country or who knows um but this also adds a lot of complexity and and some risks for sure because Um if we try to look in the space right now there are a lot of you know techsavvy people uh we see a lot of wells and this can at some point introduce some you know uh centralization problems even though it's uh decentralized in the end. So I think there are some some you know fixes around that for sure like you know having a DAO which um you know changes their leadership once in a while um you know having quadratic you know voting power for example or even even being you know careful where the power is distributed within the DAO or the governance. So um yeah it's like a you know double-edged sword for sure

double-edged sword. Yeah.

Uh so centralized organizations like can be very efficient but what the centralized organizations can do is capture opportunities that are that the centralized ones cannot cannot get to cannot see cannot perceive and cannot capitalize on them. uh in terms of uh local communities like uh and ownership at local levels in specific context I think the risks are are smaller like the stakes are always smaller but the costs are easily to to socialize the opportunities can be uh I don't know very small like each region each community has like very specific needs and centralized systems typically don't do a very good uh job at seeing those and catering for those uh there's a lot of economic opportunities in partnership with with local public local authorities that could if they have some kind of organic start and there's also some semblance of capital that emerges organically from the political community it could legitimize and like push things forward in particular directions so there's a lot of dynamics there that can happen that are very very interesting exciting and I hope they happen in my lifetime Um yeah, I mean it's uh you're probably right. Um I don't know what's going to happen in the future. Um uh I think there's going to be a lot more experimentation, but I think it's going to be a very bumpy road. Uh like figuring out this decentralized Dows uh how to do things in decentralized manner is actually very very difficult.

um and has a lot of uh disadvantages um contrary to what you might want to to uh um uh maybe you think it should shouldn't be like that but but in practical terms it is very difficult um but yeah I I hope there will be a lot more experimentation um and we will probably see some pretty uh amazing stuff happening Um but yeah, like I said, this is going to be a bumpy road. It's going to be very difficult. Uh and we will probably see some sort of um um like mix because it's uh yeah, doing everything in like in a pure decentralized manner is is very very difficult.

Yeah, that's true. Because before having good practices and uh successful ways of doing business, we had an experiment and experimental ways could lead to the success. Without experiment, we we cannot uh achieve uh those uh highs uh and growth and uh amazing things that uh afterwards we get them. But now let's tackle something else. privacy and uh with privacy I'm sharing my own perspective right now.

I believe that in centralized um ecosystems in an exchange in an on-ramp in um let's say a trading platform in order to uh be a user you have to put all your details and even when you want to uh transfer crypto from your own wallet to another wallet of yours but in a defy in a in a decentralized ecosystem and you need to give all that information about yourself. Do you think that privacy being sensitive to people, they maybe opt in the future to use um wallets which are decentralized and they are the owners of their private keys and uh won't need to share any private details um with the provider of the service. or any other thoughts that come to your mind with respect to privacy.

The thing about people is uh they don't care about things before they do. So people don't care about privacy until uh the information is leaked on the internet or something. uh uh uh somehow it was the information is used against them and then they found out oh whoops all this stuff I was leaking all those years with all those transactions so on maybe that wasn't so smart maybe I should have had done more research um used some other wallet been more careful and so on but um generally people always opt for convenience uh always and they just do the most convenient thing in the here uh they don't think much about privacy and that kind of thing until they do because uh at some point it's going to hit them uh at the back of the head. Um

yeah well in that case maybe we should also as being members of the community bring awareness to people to care about their privacy.

Yeah. You you said that they don't care uh until it happens. They I don't think they really care even after it happens. Basically every central custodian of customer information, KYC information got hacked at least once. Even like all US state institutions basically all the social security, all the insurance, they they probably all got hacked at some point.

So there's not a mass movement against that to to really like point that out. And so like do people care? Kind of. My personal hope is that partly technology will solve this and like the states will be open-minded enough in order to accept like computation that proves certain things instead of giving all the information to the state because or to private companies by regulation because they have been poor at keeping it private. So I hope like something like Ziki proves answering specific questions in specific circumstances or proving what's needed.

Hopefully that's the future but we're I think we're far from that.

Yeah. So user might not care about um their data of course but institutions do. So in my perspective if we we want to see mass adoption and institutions coming to the to the space like governments or enterprise grade corporations for sure we should deal uh and address the privacy problem. Um as everyone might know nowadays everything on the blockchain is public even even though you have a contract and you write something private in it everyone can read from that address at that specific slot. So um you know as a user let's say I'm getting paid on chain right and I'm working on a company maybe some of us don't want to see their other salaries or how much I earn per month or something like that I think that's like a big blocker right now for the mass adoption everything is public and is normal because blockchains are built with with that with that thing in mind but uh in order to address this issue uh uh we should do a lot of uh things.

For example, uh as you said before, ZK proofs are coming. Uh we see also uh a big movement on the fully homorphic encryption uh algorithms that basically allows uh people to do computations on encrypted data. Um I guess this is like the next big thing. So we need to have this probability let's say proof of verifiability um feature of the blockchain but with privacy in mind.

Yes.

So this is why I was mentioned previously that primary school you should start understanding what is identity and what is privacy. Uh and although I agree with you that people don't care about privacy until something very bad happened. Um I believe in the power of people to create um a way to be be consequences cons consistent and also once somebody is hurting an ecosystem and many users the community to be able to penalize deep enough that's that some thing that has uh hurt the community in order to create the equilibrium. So I don't think it's necessary in the tools. Uh it's more in the people and the way they understand to live in that community even if it's a digital ones or not because we are going back to regulatory.

Somebody should do something. Somebody should stop. Should be the technology or should be a human decision to do that or it's just us that we know why we are together that we know why we are doing this transaction between us and what's happening if somebody attacks somebody else privacy. It should be clear for us what h what is happening uh when this is happening and people should not doing because it's clear that and the consequence it's it's expensive to do that. This is what I think it should be.

should be so expensive to hurt others attacking their privacy that you should not even think about it.

Yes, a fair point. Maybe in in such perspective the way you put it Raua um it's we see some some uh good points for Mika in uh that perspective when it comes to centralized space um with good corporate uh policies and procedures basically you can um avoid this kind of leakages and hurting the users. So, let's wrap it up somehow with um lessons learned um from the time you've been in the blockchain space in terms of decentralization. What was good and impressed you in a positive way? um if you see any barriers for Ethereum for um the community getting to that point where decentralization it's at the core.

Just share your mind. What are your thoughts and um something that impressed you in a positive way and also the the minuses that you feel that we should be aware of them and treat them carefully for the future?

Yeah, I I can speak from the protocol level of course because that's that's where I work. Uh

yeah and even for example if you have like a a practical case when uh something bad happened and we learned from that and with that in mind we will avoid other situations would be really nice if you have something

uh in regards to decentralization.

Yeah.

Um I'm not sure that I could point out something specifically regarding that. Uh,

you know the famous tornado cache, right?

Sorry.

Tornado cashache.

Oh, right. Yes. Yes. All right. That's not the protocol, but yes.

All right. Um,

uh, yeah.

And I'm not saying it was uh something bad, but I I believe we learned a lot from that. And we can think of uh ways of uh doing things uh in a more um regulated way in in order to put the community in a good spot in a good place and not to wear that um bad light that was happening years ago in the web3 space.

Uh sure. I mean my perspective is that um Tony developers did nothing wrong. Um, and it's pretty obscene that the regulator after the fact, after so many years, just because they had a uh bad press on on a specific story or North Korea or whatever, they wanted to make a make a an example of developers who uh in in in their mind were naughty uh and basically just decided to make an example of Um I don't know what's the lesson from that is I mean that's typically how it how it always goes that uh those in power and those regulators they don't like when people um innovate and make freedom more available to people. And um when people get more freedom, they they want to u start cracking down and um uh set examples and say, "Hey, you're not allowed to do that." Um yeah.

Um Rau, you have some final thoughts maybe? Um yeah when when you mention limitation and um examples I thought about of a good uh example and I thought about a big limitation from my point of view u the limitation I think it's access because we know it we we talk about open systems but if it's open it's not it doesn't m it doesn't mean that it's also accessible. So I I thought about so many people that don't have access to what we are building.

Yeah.

And uh onboarding on ramping educating it's nice but it's hard it's expensive. Last year I have spended hours in Zoom with my users helping them to understand this. So a limitation is the access from my point of view and maybe for us to think more about how to make it accessible. And then when you ask about a good example, my first thought was about ENS, Ethereum name service, which is simple. It's a good DA.

It solves a real problem and I think it's um self sustainable. It's a good way.

Gabrielle.

Okay. Um might be where we have time.

Yes. Sorry guys.

Oh my goodness.

Is it all right if we switch to questions now or are there any closing thoughts you'd like to finish on? Um if you want to share a little bit of what was uh the the the question and then we get the question from the public.

Yeah, let's let's give a question. I don't have anything much coherent to say. We have we have something to custody. We need to take our responsibilities seriously and be idealistic and demanding but somehow simultaneously pragmatic. I yeah I didn't say anything there basically but like that's my conclusion.

Okay, fantastic guys. Thank you so much for the amazing discussion. Can I grab that microphone so we can hand this out? Um, guys, does anyone in the audience have any questions for our wonderful speakers? Um, if they don't and you want to have some time to think about it, we've actually got one on the board already from Gasguzzler 87.

Um, what do you think about the following hypothetical scenario? An AI agent creates a digital wallet, makes automatic, fast, and profitable transactions, and then buys assets in real estate. How could an AI agent have ownership in this scenario? Who wants to take that from the panel? So um I I think the last question is not on on the point on the right point because the point with AI agents that we want to have uh we want them to have autonomy right but it's in our hands it's and it's our responsibility to design them in such a way that's that's safe and you know doesn't not involve any assets at risk right so um I do believe that onchain AI agents are the next big thing in crypto.

Think of think of them about you know personal assistant that can have access to your onchain transactions onchain wallet your even your calendar and can actually you know work crosschain cross cross functional and um yeah be be like your uh personal assistant. I'm not sure if this answers the question. Um so the point was if someone creates an AI agent that can you know profit can create fast and profit transactions that's okay that's the purpose of you know blockchain uh promoting talent and if someone can create something that's fast profitable and easy to use why not we need to learn and ask how we did it

because it's a component of real estate maybe you want to

yeah actually it was a thought that I I also heard in our community what is happening if an I agent will going to buy what you're bringing uh so it will going to be a big cost for the society because the I agent will going to buy the real estate but will not going to make nothing with it so it's just going to be a cost for everybody for a building or an asset that doesn't produce nothing and nobody make the maintenance for that asset. So yeah okay it can happen uh and it will be a cost for us because this will not going to produce nothing for us from my point of view and this is why I think as a community we will have to react and do something and be somebody should be responsible for that I agent in a in a way if it's had been creating by a community I don't know there should be a cost for that community because has creative it's a single person I don't know then so but I I do believe that in that case the community will have the power to do something. I I really believe that.

Okay. So community is the answer. Thank you. It's a very cohesive answer. Um does anyone else on the panel want to tackle that question?

Bogdan, over to you.

Yeah. Uh AI agents are tools. They don't walk into a bar. They're they're used by someone else typically. Um yeah, I'm I'm not concerned.

Good for the bot. Thank

Bogdan's not concerned. Um, over to you, sir.

Yeah. So, I think there's a difference in what is technically possible and what is legally possible. Uh, I'm pretty sure a court would never recognize an AI agent as an as a actual owner. Um, of course, it's perfectly technically possible to do. Um, but legally speaking, I don't think so.

Okay. Do we have any other questions from the crowd?

Ah, over there.

I don't have a question. I just a followup or not a followup but an AI agent is run by some a human entity. So the human entity would have that ownership. So it's a nonpro. I think

most likely a court would see it like that. Yeah, probably.

Okay, fantastic. Any other questions, guys? Does anyone want to put their hand up for one final swing at our panel of experts over there? Okay. Oh no, his hand was just floating.

Very risky to put your hand up like that, by the way. Very, very risky. Okay, guys. Um, any closing thoughts from our wonderful panel or would you like to close it off there?

So, um, I was really honored to be here and I thank you all amazing crowd and amazing speakers. Um let's give a round of applause and see you later in other panels.